View Full Version : <R07>E Bumper clarification
big1boom
10-02-2010, 19:35
<R07>E. The BUMPERS must be covered with a rugged, smooth cloth (1000 dernier Cordura Plus® strongly recommended). The cloth must completely enclose all exposed surfaces of the BUMPER backing (plywood) and cushion (pool noodle) material. It is recommended that lengths of aluminum angle be used to clamp the fabric in place.
My question is, does the fabric have to wrap around the entire bumper, or could we just have fabric on the three exposed sides?
In this image
Black=Bumper Hardware (noodles, plywood, mounting supplies)
Red=Fabric cover that is absolutely required
Green=Fabric in question.
http://filesmelt.com/dl/bumpers.jpg
To reiterate, is the Green fabric from the image required?
Sorry for my bad photoshop
Ice Berg
10-02-2010, 19:37
Typically the fabric needs to wrap slightly onto the back side in order to fasten it on, but you do not need to fully wrap the other side.
i dont see wrapping the back all the way necessary because the rule states that all "exposed sides" and the back wouldnt be exposed.
R7 ...
E. The BUMPERS must be covered with a rugged, smooth cloth (1000 dernier Cordura Plus® strongly recommended). The cloth must completely enclose the BUMPER backing (plywood) and cushion (pool noodle) material. It is recommended that lengths of aluminum angle be used to clamp the fabric in place
This is taken from the rules, red highlight is mine. To say that the cloth does not have to cover the back is NOT what is stated in the rules. Please read the rules before making statements.
Vikesrock
10-02-2010, 23:26
R7 ...
E. The BUMPERS must be covered with a rugged, smooth cloth (1000 dernier Cordura Plus® strongly recommended). The cloth must completely enclose the BUMPER backing (plywood) and cushion (pool noodle) material. It is recommended that lengths of aluminum angle be used to clamp the fabric in place
This is taken from the rules, red highlight is mine. To say that the cloth does not have to cover the back is NOT what is stated in the rules. Please read the rules before making statements.
<R07> ...
To achieve this, BUMPERS must be constructed as described below and illustrated in Figure 8 – 1.
Figure 8-1 conflicts with this interpretation of the wording.
Steve, the exact wording has been used in the past, and teams have passed with the backs of the backing (i.e., the robot side) not covered. Any team that does opt to cover that side may have a slightly harder time attaching bumpers.
If I am inspecting I will follow the rules. The diagrams are only helps like the blue boxes and not the rules. I would hate to be a team that can't compete because they did not follow the rules. It is also something I would bring up if I noticed that a team did not have completely covered backs. Why should some of us follow the rules and others not?
If I am inspecting I will follow the rules. The diagrams are only helps like the blue boxes and not the rules. I would hate to be a team that can't compete because they did not follow the rules. It is also something I would bring up if I noticed that a team did not have completely covered backs. Why should some of us follow the rules and others not?
Why should some go through more work than they need to?
I don't think anybody's asked this to Q&A yet. If I had access, I would. I don't have access to ask questions. It should be a fairly simple: "Does <R07-E> require that the entire robot side of the plywood bumper backing be covered by the fabric? If it does, can Figure 8-1 be modified to reflect this?"
Also, by Figure 8-1 being referenced in the way it is ("must be constructed as described below and illustrated in Figure 8-1"), Figure 8-1 becomes the definitive illustration of the bumpers. Whether or not the rules support it, that is how a large number of teams will build their bumpers. Now you're telling them that they will not be allowed to compete, just because they didn't cover an area that the drawings didn't show covered and the rules *might* have been interpreted to say had to be covered--the rules appear to be ambiguous, at least in enforcement.
If Q&A doesn't say one way or the other, then both sides are equally valid. Let it alone. If Q&A says one way or the other, then that way is the way that all teams will need to go--and an update will probably be released to advise teams of this way.
waialua359
11-02-2010, 00:34
This situation is the case where the figure does not match the description again.
I would suggest completely covering the back to cover your bases OR submit a Q&A inquiry.
We noticed a similar thing in the part of the rule that states that the bumper backing should be the full length of the perimeter ( Im paraphrasing, its very late and after 20 hours I do that ), so this leads me to believe that the plywood is the same dimension as the robot frame on any side. Further in the rules figure 8-2 describes how the bumpers should meet at corners, so as to not have any gaps is how we interpret this. Our question is it legal if the bumpers dont meet each other in the corners but still have no gaps allowing the robot frame to make contact with anything?
Vikesrock
11-02-2010, 00:46
Steve, the exact wording has been used in the past, and teams have passed with the backs of the backing (i.e., the robot side) not covered. Any team that does opt to cover that side may have a slightly harder time attaching bumpers.
Unfortunately, the wording in the past has not been exactly the same.
Time to go submit my third Q&A question in 3 days.
Chris is me
11-02-2010, 00:56
I think the key word is "EXPOSED". The bumper backing facing the robot isn't exposed.
big1boom
11-02-2010, 00:59
I think the key word is "EXPOSED". The bumper backing facing the robot isn't exposed.
The key word is definitely "exposed" however, what does the GDC mean when they say exposed? Do they mean the part that is facing the inside part of the robot, or just the parts that could possibly come into contact with other robots?
I would ask this question in Q&A, but unfortunately I do not have access to.
Vikesrock
11-02-2010, 01:01
I think the key word is "EXPOSED". The bumper backing facing the robot isn't exposed.
Oops, now I look like an idiot for quoting the rule from an old Revision on the Q&A :mad: That's what I get for poor organization of my manual folder.
*Deletes RevA*
Oh, well, I would have asked the question anyway.
Brian,
As noted above, I have asked this on the Q&A.
Chris is me
11-02-2010, 01:01
Yeah, why would they specify the exposed bumper material if they meant all of it? I can't see how the word "exposed" means "all of the plywood". The figure supports my conclusion. Bump on!
Vikesrock
11-02-2010, 01:08
Yeah, why would they specify the exposed bumper material if they meant all of it? I can't see how the word "exposed" means "all of the plywood". The figure supports my conclusion. Bump on!
Bumper backing can be exposed, but facing towards the robot. Does this need to be covered?
My definition of exposed would be if the plywood is visible when the bumpers are installed on the robot. Our current bumpers have quite a but of exposed plywood on the side facing our robot. They are supported in the back by a piece of 1" tall plywood attached to a piece of 1x1 aluminum box. The brackets holding the bumpers in place are fairly small and the fabric currently only wraps around about 1-1.5" around each edge leaving between .5" and 1" of backing I would consider exposed on either side of the supporting frame member.
I agree with your conclusion, but am not fond of taking risks when it comes to inspection. Safer to ask the question and find out the answer now.
Alan Anderson
11-02-2010, 11:11
R7 ...
E. The BUMPERS must be covered with a rugged, smooth cloth (1000 dernier Cordura Plus® strongly recommended). The cloth must completely enclose the BUMPER backing (plywood) and cushion (pool noodle) material. It is recommended that lengths of aluminum angle be used to clamp the fabric in place
This is taken from the rules, red highlight is mine. To say that the cloth does not have to cover the back is NOT what is stated in the rules. Please read the rules before making statements.
Steve, please read the current revision of the rules. Revision H of The Robot replaces what you highlighted in red with The cloth must completely enclose all exposed surfaces of the BUMPER backing (plywood) and cushion (pool noodle) material. (Italics are mine.) That's what the original post quoted, and the interpretation of "exposed surfaces" is the question.
I don't think the part of the bumper that is against the robot frame is "exposed", but I'm neither the GDC nor a robot inspector.
I really believe they mean that the back of the BUMPER needs to be covered with fabric. If you look at the rule and shift your eyes over to "enclose the BUMPER backing (plywood)" I think this very clearly stated that the back of the BUMPER(part attached to the FRAME) must be covered.
This is how our team views is, this is how we made it. If you look at it from a safety point of view; having the back covered helps prevent splinters when dealing with the BUMPER.
I really believe they mean that the back of the BUMPER needs to be covered with fabric. If you look at the rule and shift your eyes over to "enclose the BUMPER backing (plywood)" I think this very clearly stated that the back of the BUMPER(part attached to the FRAME) must be covered.
This is how our team views is, this is how we made it. If you look at it from a safety point of view; having the back covered helps prevent splinters when dealing with the BUMPER.You guys need to keep up on the updates. See Alan's post right above yours.
That said, any team that opts to cover the back will not be declared illegal.
Steve, don't try to fail a team who doesn't have the backside of their bumpers covered. http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14610
Please refer to Rule <R07-A> as amended in Team Update #3. The rule requires that all exposed surfaces of the plywood and pool noodles be covered by the fabric. Interior or hidden surfaces (e.g. the "back" of the plywood) do not have to be completely covered.
After reading the update number three I will say that the GDC means that anything that can be seen from the audience should be covered. I take this to mean that the backing now does not need to be covered.
Note to self: stop building and read updates faster.
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