Suspending

[Grim Tuesday]

OK, so at Fingerlakes regional, we had about 10 robots able to hang (counting the 2 ramp-bots). Out of them, only about 4 could do it consistently. None could suspend. My question is: Has anyone seen any robot be suspended by an alliance robot, and get points for it?

[apalrd]

Here at Kettering, I saw only 1 robot with a clear means for a team to hang off of it. It was never used. Not many robots consistently hung.

[Tomatosoup]

Here at Kettering, I saw only 1 robot with a clear means for a team to hang off of it. It was never used. Not many robots consistently hung.

I assume you're talking about the Enginerds, they did pretty well, also to answer the first question, no.

[Grim Tuesday]

The only robot at FLR that was designed to be "suspended" off of had a wide hook, and other robots were meant to hang off it's hook. However, it became obvious that the hook wasn't large enough for two robots to share, or enough time to get them both elevated.

I am of the opinion that the suspending mechanic does not get enough points to make it worth it, or even is it feasible. In summary, the GDC made a mistake.

[BrendanB]

I think what is making hanging off of other robots hard is that teams have designed their robots with so many different ways to hang. Teams latching on to the side poles or balancing on the bumps and sideswiping a hook on top. Very few teams have near identical means of hanging for it to work.

[Grim Tuesday]

The only types that I have seen multiple of were arm+winch,and bump hooks. Both had a good few at FLR, with the only winch one working well being the X-Cats(191), with their first hang in the last match of the final (although they still lost lol)

[Jamie Kalb]

...winch one working weel...

Say that ten times fast. :D

[pfreivald]

We had the wide hook, and even with a lift that would hang us in four seconds (yes, really, four seconds), there wasn't enough time to coordinate a suspension.

After a bump from an opponent almost got us a red card (the wide hook touched the ball return mechanism -- which means that were it a bump from an allied robot, we would have gotten that red card, but because it was from the other alliance we did not), so we removed it and kept part of it because it is bright green, and thus easy for our drivers to see.

If I may so humbly say, we had the best lift of the FLR, hands-down... And we weren't even close to seeing any viable situation where suspension was possible.

Patrick

[Grim Tuesday]

You guys easilly had the best and most reliable lift. The only competing one could be the telescoping arm that worked just about every time too (I forget the team name)

[Tom Line]

The only robot at FLR that was designed to be "suspended" off of had a wide hook, and other robots were meant to hang off it's hook. However, it became obvious that the hook wasn't large enough for two robots to share, or enough time to get them both elevated.

I am of the opinion that the suspending mechanic does not get enough points to make it worth it, or even is it feasible. In summary, the GDC made a mistake.

Really? You think they made a mistake?

I'll give you a very brief scenario. In 2007, there were dozens of robots that were able to lift 2 other robots off the floor. Using a VERY similar technique, it is not that difficult to make ramps this year that will do the same. Especially considering the number of long orientation robots, and the flat tops most people are sporting, their bots are almost directly lent to ramps.

Tell me - with the lack of bots that can even hang, what do you say to a single robot with nice big ramps that can "suspend" two bots on those ramps for 6 points? In fact, how many matches would a single suspension for 3 points have turned the tide? I don't know about you, but making the ramps seems much easier than even trying to hang... at least to me.

As time goes on, we'll see higher match scores and the lifting will be a nice cherry on top and not quite so decisive. But one good bot dedicated to ramping the other two for a good 6 points would probably be welcome on most elim teams. Just my opinion of course. Perhaps people simply chose other avenues - I can certainly see ways that would make "suspending" teams fairly easy, and get that 6 points quite a few times.

[Grim Tuesday]

Ramps dont suspend bots, and from what I have seen, they dont work well. They have two issues:
1. Both of the rampbots at FLR were only designed to put the robot on the platform, so they are only "guaranteed" 2 points.
2. It is VERY VERY hard to get onto these ramps. You must drive completely straight, and not let a whell(or tread) off the ramp. It looks easy, but it really isnt, especially when you are 15 feet away.

The two bots who had ramps, when they did deploy, got no bonus points scored.

[stevek]

One Idea we had, but never sent time to develop or implement, was to hang and create an identical "bar" from our robot, that would be the same height and position as the field bar when we were in the hanging position. So if we hung, another robot would have a standard element to hang off of. I had a few sketches (using the vertical poles as braces to support the weight and everything) but once the team decided to keep the bot low and go under the tunnel it never got thought of again. Ofcourse that evolved and we have an arm that hangs and we cant go under anything (except the ball return track) and noone thought to implement the other features. But we can hang from the floor or the bump and it works fairly consistnetly. We hung 5 or 6 times in the UTC Pre-Ship Scrimmage. In fact that would make us the first to hang on an official field this season... but it was only a scrimmage!!!

I'm glad to see a few teams figured out how to score (9-10 point games are the highest I saw one Michigan regional was either 10 or 12 during elims). I think if they made hanging few more points more teams would have done it. But look at the results from regionals... how many game results would be reversed with a 2 point bonus. And what if two or three robots hung. I dont htink I ever saw multiple hangers on the same allance. What a shame... those 4-6 points alone would have won 75% of all the matches I saw. So it might not seem like alot of points for one team to spend the time, but multiply that by three robots! I also want Autonomous to be more points... a bonus for the hard work. This is why only a few robots even moved. I saw one that does what we do... three long balls form zone three. many robots just sit and wait. If they made it more points people would have thought about it and innovated more.

[Tom Line]

Ramps dont suspend bots, and from what I have seen, they dont work well. They have two issues:
1. Both of the rampbots at FLR were only designed to put the robot on the platform, so they are only "guaranteed" 2 points.
2. It is VERY VERY hard to get onto these ramps. You must drive completely straight, and not let a whell(or tread) off the ramp. It looks easy, but it really isnt, especially when you are 15 feet away.

The two bots who had ramps, when they did deploy, got no bonus points scored.

Grim is correct regarding the rule.

[Duncan Macdonald]

Regarding ramps:
SUSPENDED: A ROBOT only in contact with an ELEVATED ROBOT and/or a SUSPENDED ROBOT shall be considered SUSPENDED.

ELEVATED: A ROBOT that is completely above the plane of the PLATFORM and in contact with the TOWER shall be considered ELEVATED.

Unless the ramp bot elevates itself the other two on top won't be suspended.

[Grim Tuesday]

Just to clarify, all the ramp-bots at FLR parked in front of the tunnel/platform, and allowed robots to drive onto it.

You may be thinking of a robot that lets robots drive onto it, and then hangs. That, is a totally different thing.

[stevek]

Ramps dont suspend bots, and from what I have seen, they dont work well. They have two issues:
1. Both of the rampbots at FLR were only designed to put the robot on the platform, so they are only "guaranteed" 2 points.
2. It is VERY VERY hard to get onto these ramps. You must drive completely straight, and not let a whell(or tread) off the ramp. It looks easy, but it really isnt, especially when you are 15 feet away.

The two bots who had ramps, when they did deploy, got no bonus points scored.

I remember in 2007, we gave away "Wings" (like you get on airlines, when you are 5) When teams climbed on our dual ramps. It became an ad campaign to get people to the practice field to get comfprtable with them. They were easy to climb when you've done it an have confidence. Of course that year the ramp was in the endzone right in front of them, but cant we do it that way this year? Do the ramp need to be in contact with the tower? I forget!

[IndySam]

There is a huge difference between 07 and this years game. Starting with the difference between a 84 inch circle and a 72 inch square.

You only had to get a robot 12" off the of ground compared to 20".

Plus this year after you get two robots on the ramp you have to somehow elevate your own. All for couple points extra.

[Nathan Streeter]

The Granite State Regional saw plenty of successful elevations, but not a single suspension... I'll be surprised if they happen much this season!

[Chris is me]

I bet someone will hang off of 2062's robot sometime, maybe just in practice, but they can support robots.

[johnr]

Kettering had two on one tower. They each used a vertical pole. The enginerds bot could pull this off but they would have to have the right partners and start very early in match. The way the seeding points are i don't see any reason not to try.

[pfreivald]

Ouch. It looks like some people misunderstood the definition of SUSPENSION. Ramps are only useful in getting robots onto the PLATFORM...

Being on top of a robot that is not itself ELEVATED or SUSPENDED earns you exactly nothing.

[Tom Line]

Ouch. It looks like some people misunderstood the definition of SUSPENSION. Ramps are only useful in getting robots onto the PLATFORM...

Being on top of a robot that is not itself ELEVATED or SUSPENDED earns you exactly nothing.

Yep - I stand corrected. It's funny how the rules can "shift around" in your mind when you aren't reading them on a regular basis. My mistake - and it invalidates my argument. I think I'll back and see if the edit feature is still available.

Mea Culpa.

[Zach O]

Kettering had two on one tower. They each used a vertical pole. The enginerds bot could pull this off but they would have to have the right partners and start very early in match. The way the seeding points are i don't see any reason not to try.

And the only reason we didn't have a single/double lift at Kettering was because we never had the right partners. Team 1322 was close to hanging off of us, but there ended up being timing issues, and they pulled us down at the last moment. But we proved that we can hang teams, and I think at Ann Arbor we will see the first double suspend.

[Clinton Bolinger]

To add to what Zach said:

In the match with 1322, one of the two hooks on our Team's attachment mechanism was not secured to the field tower. Team 1322 successfully attached their robot to our supports, but since we were not completely attached to the tower, it caused our robot to move into a lower vertical position where we were no longer considered elevated. We are able to successfully elevate our (single) robot with the support of one hook, as proven in two matches at the Kettering University District.

After the aforementioned match, we discovered the root problem of the difficulty of attaching both hooks, and made some physical modifications to the design. These changes yielded positive results, which allowed our robot to successfully elevate itself in the successive matches.

The last determining factor that attributed to our inability to allow another robot to suspend from our mechanism, is that the alliance selection assignments did not provide our Team with an alliance partner whose robot had the ability to suspend itself off of the tower. Since our robot is designed such that any robot with the ability to elevate from the tower also has the ability to be supported by our robot, no one was able to attempt to suspend themselves from us.

I would also like to thank Team 1322 for your immense efforts to attempt to suspend your robot from ours. Had our Team's second hook successfully attached to the tower, we certainly would have seen the first elevate/suspension! Thanks for all of the great teamwork!

-Clinton-

[pfreivald]

Multiple elevations weren't uncommon at the FLR, even though we had no suspensions.

Patrick

[J_Miles]

Multiple elevations weren't uncommon at the FLR, even though we had no suspensions.

It's not as though we didn't have plenty of multiple elevations at Kettering, either. Teams like 27, RUSH; and 33, the Bees, could easily elevate while another team that used the horizontal bars elevated, but ours was the only match to see something even close to an Elevate/Suspend; however, there was another match where Lapeer East was positioning themselves to suspend from us when we had gotten both hooks onto the tower, they just never even really got started before the countdown finished.

[Enigma's puzzle]

Here at Kettering, I saw only 1 robot with a clear means for a team to hang off of it. It was never used. Not many robots consistently hung.

2337 the Enginerds did have a bar that simulated the tower, and there was 1 attempt to suspend off of it, but they ran out of time. The other team, whom i cannot recall their number, had the grappling hook attached but did not have time to fire up the winch to pull themselves up. So disappointing.

[Zach O]

2337 the Enginerds did have a bar that simulated the tower, and there was 1 attempt to suspend off of it, but they ran out of time. The other team, whom i cannot recall their number, had the grappling hook attached but did not have time to fire up the winch to pull themselves up. So disappointing.

G.R.A.Y.T. Leviathons, Team 1322 (see above posts)

[Ryan_Davis]

OK, so at Fingerlakes regional, we had about 10 robots able to hang (counting the 2 ramp-bots). Out of them, only about 4 could do it consistently. None could suspend. My question is: Has anyone seen any robot be suspended by an alliance robot, and get points for it?

Eastridge Robotics 3157 is proud to be an FLR suspender, along with Lockport 1507, Victor 1559, and Naples 1551. There were some occaisonal suspensions from Pittsford 3181, 1126 Sparx, and even 191 Wilson-Magnet. :D

[Alex Cormier]

We had the wide hook, and even with a lift that would hang us in four seconds (yes, really, four seconds), there wasn't enough time to coordinate a suspension.

After a bump from an opponent almost got us a red card (the wide hook touched the ball return mechanism -- which means that were it a bump from an allied robot, we would have gotten that red card, but because it was from the other alliance we did not), so we removed it and kept part of it because it is bright green, and thus easy for our drivers to see.

If I may so humbly say, we had the best lift of the FLR, hands-down... And we weren't even close to seeing any viable situation where suspension was possible.

Patrick

I was hoping we could have a match with you. I really wanted to be the first to get the 3 points! Come late friday night we had our hanger all worked out and beautiful. We could lift in 10 seconds or less from the floor in all of our three sat matches with ease.

...There were some occasional suspensions from Pittsford 3181...
Yeah, we grabbed onto the bar every match, the Friday matches we didn't set up in time or get a full lift. We worked very hard to get the lifter working by our last match Friday. But due to a strategy decision we did not lift our last match on Friday. But come Saturday we did the remaining 3 matches no problem at all. I wished we came up with that solution on Thursday.

If we only count our lifts on Saturday, I would think that we were the best lifter behind 1551. (or no?)

[pfreivald]

I was hoping we could have a match with you. I really wanted to be the first to get the 3 points! Come late friday night we had our hanger all worked out and beautiful. We could lift in 10 seconds or less from the floor in all of our three sat matches with ease.

Unfortunately by then we had removed our bar cover because of a near red-card when it bumped the ball return. (Fortunately, the egregious bump was caused by an opposing alliance robot who will remain nameless -- so they were red-carded instead). Dante warned us of the situation, and we fixed it by removing the bar cover.

Otherwise, it looks like some of you are confusing SUSPENSION with ELEVATION. We had quite a bit of ELEVATION at FLR (more than most of the other regionals, looking at the hanging points), but no SUSPENSIONs.

If we only count our lifts on Saturday, I would think that we were the best lifter behind 1551. (or no?)

I think it was a close thing between you guys and 1559 for second place on lifting. Great job, rookies!

Patrick

[Alex Cormier]

Unfortunately by then we had removed our bar cover because of a near red-card when it bumped the ball return. (Fortunately, the egregious bump was caused by an opposing alliance robot who will remain nameless -- so they were red-carded instead). Dante warned us of the situation, and we fixed it by removing the bar cover.

Otherwise, it looks like some of you are confusing SUSPENSION with ELEVATION. We had quite a bit of ELEVATION at FLR (more than most of the other regionals, looking at the hanging points), but no SUSPENSIONs.



I think it was a close thing between you guys and 1559 for second place on lifting. Great job, rookies!

Patrick

Thanks, we will have a improved and ready robot come Ruckus time. Maybe we will pair up then? :)

[Grim Tuesday]

Eastridge Robotics 3157 is proud to be an FLR suspender, along with Lockport 1507, Victor 1559, and Naples 1551. There were some occaisonal suspensions from Pittsford 3181, 1126 Sparx, and even 191 Wilson-Magnet. :D

Um... Noone suspended at FLR. You guys did a good job elevating though!

[joeweber]

To add to what Zach said:

In the match with 1322, one of the two hooks on our Team's attachment mechanism was not secured to the field tower. Team 1322 successfully attached their robot to our supports, but since we were not completely attached to the tower, it caused our robot to move into a lower vertical position where we were no longer considered elevated. We are able to successfully elevate our (single) robot with the support of one hook, as proven in two matches at the Kettering University District.

After the aforementioned match, we discovered the root problem of the difficulty of attaching both hooks, and made some physical modifications to the design. These changes yielded positive results, which allowed our robot to successfully elevate itself in the successive matches.


I would also like to thank Team 1322 for your immense efforts to attempt to suspend your robot from ours. Had our Team's second hook successfully attached to the tower, we certainly would have seen the first elevate/suspension! Thanks for all of the great teamwork!

-Clinton-

Thank's Clinton, We almost hung but with our hook droping almost 2 feet below the bar hieght it took extra time for the cable to wind up on our wench. Once it caught up and started to hang time was up. I am positive if your second hook would have caught we would have done it.

I bet you will get many chances coming up to sucseed. With the low scores it can be a game decider.

[Grim Tuesday]

I think that most teams just decided that at only 1 point more than hanging, it just wasnt worth the time, and effort to make it work.

[Thuvishan.R]

Team 1241 hung on multiple ocations at flr, as well had the option for the suspension of another robot but due to time constraints and game play strategy never saw any possibilities to try in actuall game play.

[maltz1881]

To add to what Zach said:

In the match with 1322, one of the two hooks on our Team's attachment mechanism was not secured to the field tower. Team 1322 successfully attached their robot to our supports, but since we were not completely attached to the tower, it caused our robot to move into a lower vertical position where we were no longer considered elevated. We are able to successfully elevate our (single) robot with the support of one hook, as proven in two matches at the Kettering University District.

After the aforementioned match, we discovered the root problem of the difficulty of attaching both hooks, and made some physical modifications to the design. These changes yielded positive results, which allowed our robot to successfully elevate itself in the successive matches.

The last determining factor that attributed to our inability to allow another robot to suspend from our mechanism, is that the alliance selection assignments did not provide our Team with an alliance partner whose robot had the ability to suspend itself off of the tower. Since our robot is designed such that any robot with the ability to elevate from the tower also has the ability to be supported by our robot, no one was able to attempt to suspend themselves from us.

I would also like to thank Team 1322 for your immense efforts to attempt to suspend your robot from ours. Had our Team's second hook successfully attached to the tower, we certainly would have seen the first elevate/suspension! Thanks for all of the great teamwork!

-Clinton-

Clinton, we owe you and your entire team huge thank you's. Over the last few weeks you have been a gracious host. I hope you at least got a cookie or brownie!!

I think if we had just a few more seconds and if your 2nd hook attached, it would have been incredible. I know you guys are going to go to Ann Arbor and be successful. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you didn't have 2 robots hanging off you!! Best of luck!

[RoseJ]

I would also like to thank Team 1322 for your immense efforts to attempt to suspend your robot from ours. Had our Team's second hook successfully attached to the tower, we certainly would have seen the first elevate/suspension! Thanks for all of the great teamwork!

And I would like to thank the EngiNERDS for all that they have done~ If we had a few more seconds left in the match we would have been suspended from your robot. I truly hope that our two teams continue to work together in the future when we get the chances. I'm not sure about you, but to me it seemed like the crowd went nuts when we were starting to hang off of your robot!

[Clinton Bolinger]

Here are some pictures from Daniel Ernst @ Kettering District:

Starting to hook on:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4417814256_a8e0c5119b.jpg

Hooked and ready to Lift:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/4417051065_ea22b0821d.jpg

Almost there:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2704/4417052583_d621213a23.jpg

2 Points:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4012/4416937653_2135d039cb.jpg


The one hook Hang:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2683/4417618552_c063df97db.jpg

Be sure to check out the rest of the Kettering picture from Daniel Ernst Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/danielernst/sets/72157623582837940/).

1322 - Thank you for the Brownies and Cookies, you are more then welcome to come to our facility any time.

-Clinton-