High score of the season

[Marjory Frosty]

217,469,2960 scored 25 points!!!!

Way to go guys!!!!

[BJC]

I just watched this it was amazing!!!

469 just returns the balls back into the goal.

And for those of you who are going to say it this is not illegal because their ball returner is not active when the balls are touching it.

Great Job 469!!!

[Marjory Frosty]

Ok now 26 is the new high!!!!

[BJC]

They just did it again in the next match 26 to 1

I'm calling best robot of the year already

[Cory]

They just did it again in the next match 26 to 1

I'm calling best robot of the year already

Until they play teams that don't suck...

Seriously, 469 is awesome and watching them put up 26 was amazing, but they couldn't have had an easier time doing it, since the defending robot was basically dead in the water.

Let's see how they do against real competition before crowning them.

[Marjory Frosty]

I agree. I don't think it would have been as easy or as high if this was last week at Kettering or next week at Detroit.

[BJC]

Ok I'll agree that with more compitition they would have a harder time.

But the fact remains that whatever regional their at they will get picked by the number 1 seed and that they will have plenty of ammo to score with.

Example: At kettering they would have been picked by HOT and in the finals our team (33) or The Charge would have been the only ones over their getting double defended so we couldn't get in the way.

This is the most efficent scoring machine across the country in elims.

Of course in the quals its a different story:rolleyes:

[Austinmead]

can someone post a link to the video of it or something i wanna see it

[JABot67]

Okay, the Michigan State Championship is going to be ridiculous. So many good teams, so many strategies!

It would be a good idea for Michigan teams to write autonomous modes that drive or strafe in front of the tower in auton before 469 can get to it. (Does 469 grab onto the tower?)

[hipsterjr]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek::eek:

[BHS_STopping]

To explain 469's design (Just watched the last few matches at Cass Tech), it's really quite elegant. In autonomous mode it drives over to the tunnel and gets into position (this is to prevent robots from blocking it from the tower later). It then goes partway into the tunnel (Pretty much making it impossible to push out of position) while their ball redirection mechanism opens up over the platform. Essentially, it's just a pair of tracks which point toward either of the goals. I don't know how they select which goal the ball will be redirected to, but it probably isn't very complex. What's scored them so many points is having 217 in the scoring zone as well, herding up and scoring the balls that don't make it into the goal or those balls which are blocked. It's an elegantly simple system which has left my jaw on the ground each time I've seen it. 469 isn't just good; it's DISGUSTINGLY good. Might have to rank up there with 71's 2002 game breaker as well, it's just that awesome.

[BJC]

It would be a good idea for Michigan teams to write autonomous modes that drive or strafe in front of the tower in auton before 469 can get to it. (Does 469 grab onto the tower?)

Ya the thing is that 469 is not grabbing onto the tower THEY ARE UNDER IT!

This mean you cannot really push them anywhere once they get there (they get there in auto) they will be recycling any balls their team scores at the very least back into their home zone if not back into the goal for the rest of the match.

However since I believe that you can start asnywhere as long as you are touching your bump you may be able to start right in their way!!!

[Cory]

Okay, the Michigan State Championship is going to be ridiculous. So many good teams, so many strategies!

It would be a good idea for Michigan teams to write autonomous modes that drive or strafe in front of the tower in auton before 469 can get to it. (Does 469 grab onto the tower?)

Didn't work. Some team tried it in the semis and 469 pushed them right out of the way.

[JABot67]

If a robot was strong enough, could it go through the tunnel and push 469 out of the way?

[Josh Murphy]

If a robot was strong enough, could it go through the tunnel and push 469 out of the way?

I doubt it... I think if a team wedged itself in the tower and not just in front of it in auto they could probably stop them. :)

[BHS_STopping]

If a robot was strong enough, could it go through the tunnel and push 469 out of the way?

Perhaps, if a robot weighed 120 lbs and had some traction behind it. 469 could easily remedy this though, adding weight and maybe a braking mechanism to keep their wheels from spinning.

Oh dear, does this mean they can actually become *better*?

[johnr]

Someone will be able to stop them. Get to tower first and have traction wheels. They do have to cross field and other side starts right next to tower. There will be alot of code being written because of them. The 469 code.

[Lil' Lavery]

Do note that 469 is still pretty good when acting like a "normal" robot, as well. They typically are clearing balls out of the neutral zone in autonomous before they go into the tunnel (and sometimes scoring them) and in QF1-2 they left the tunnel due to a ball jam and scored a ball from the neutral zone during tele-op.

If the other alliance wants to commit a robot to wedging itself into the tunnel in order to stop 469, they'll then have to try and win a match 2v3. I don't like those odds very much, either.

[hipsterjr]

Is this not the "God bot" strategy everyone said would never work:rolleyes: . Props to 469 for being brave enough to try it and for being awesome enough to perfect it.

[ZeroGAdam]

Does anyone have any video of this amazing match?

[fuzzy1718]

the reason no one can move them is that they have a springboard that goes under the tunnel and actually lifts up on the tower. They are effectively wedged in their position. This actually causes a problem; In one of the semis or finals (I dont remeber) they lifted the tower so much that the balls wouldnt roll down the return rails... so chickens decided to high speed ram it and bend it all out of wack in order to get them to come down... but no penalties were called so they were all good.

[BHS_STopping]

I threw together a quick drawing of what 469's robot essentially does. It's my best interpretation of things after watching a few Cass Tech matches.

http://img705.imageshack.us/i/469i.png/

[TKM.368]

You can catch some of 469 here, but none of it as impressive as their semifinal and final matches.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5391497

Match 28 00:07:45
Match 34 01:04:56 (they can be defended against!)
Match 39 01:58:54

Much of what they did in the elims was off camera in these matches.

[Epic]

"Someone will be able to stop them. Get to tower first and have traction wheels. They do have to cross field and other side starts right next to tower. There will be alot of code being written because of them. The 469 code."

I'm on 2185 who played against 469 twice. The first time we played, we successfully made an auton to keep them out of the tunnel. They were unable to set up their mechanism so I guess we could be one of the first teams to make a 469 code. Our robot is built for traction so it worked well.

Unfortunately, the second time we played them was in the 25-1 match in the semifinals but oh well.

Congrats team 469 on a great design.

[11Mort11]

They just did it again in the next match 26 to 1

I'm calling best robot of the year already

Lol robowranglers have the exact same one as 217 its gonna be insane at nationals

[Edoc'sil]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but any tank tread drive should be able to push them around, assuming that is that 469 doesn't have treads.

[nuggetsyl]

Ok before i get railed with neg rep and all other fun things that will come with this post. I want to say i am truly asking this because i do not fully understand 469 robot. I watched video( http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5391497) today of 469 and to me it looks like a clear violation of rule r19. The rule was addressed with gdc. ( http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14077 ) Is the ramp they build not a MECHANISM???:confused: If it is not then i know where i am wrong.

[Lil' Lavery]

Ok before i get railed with neg rep and all other fun things that will come with this post. I want to say i am truly asking this because i do not fully understand 469 robot. I watched video( http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5391497) today of 469 and to me it looks like a clear violation of rule r19. The rule was addressed with gdc. ( http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14077 ) Is the ramp they build not a MECHANISM???:confused: If it is not then i know where i am wrong.

The ramp is a mechanism, but the ball never more than within 3" of it, so therefor it is not a penalty. Per the last sentence of the Q&A you quoted:

A situation where the BALL traverses "inside" the robot boundaries (e.g. as it falls from the BALL RETURN and bounces off the top of the ROBOT), but does not enter a MECHANISM by more than the permitted 3 inches, would not be PENALIZED


Correct me if I'm wrong, but any tank tread drive should be able to push them around, assuming that is that 469 doesn't have treads.

Since you told me to correct you, I will. Treads don't automatically mean more traction. And beyond that, they have a mechanism designed to wedge them into position once they reach the tunnel.

[Tom Line]

I'll elaborate on their design.

First - they're autonomous kicks the two balls from the middle zone into the goal on their way to the tower. This primes the system to recycle balls.

Second - they've got traction wheels. Someone here says they do well when not locked on - that really isn't very true. They have difficulty turning, aren't very fast, and can't do much of anything if defended. That isn't a knock on their bot. Frankly, it's incredibly effective at what is does. There is NO OTHER WAY you're going to average 1 ball every 4 seconds.

Third - they physically lock onto the tower. With large aluminum plates onto the bar. They push the center platform up because they drive into the bar to lock on and their front lifts up when they do lock as a result of their wheels still driving. There's pretty much no point in trying to move them - in fact they moved the entire field twice when they were locking on.

Fourth - you can block them. You have to travel partially into the tunnel at an angle. A number of teams were at the practice field programming auton to do exactly that. Once you stop them from locking in, there no better (and in fact a bit worse) than many other bots. They have a good kicker and a good ball sucker, but they are slow-slow-slow. Don't count on that continuing long though - they're Las Guerillas after all.

Fifth - Corey, there were good teams at Cass Tech. However, the Guerilla's have a reasonably simply answer to that. The person in their offensive zone plays DEFENSE on the bot there. That way the guerillas can shoot to the clear side of the field. They had occasional problems during qualifications when they didn't have a good offensive partner to get the balls in to get the cycle started, or if they missed their shot in auton.

Editted to make it more polite:

There were many good teams there that got squished by 469's system. Saying that teams there didn't provide decent competition is rather poor form, very unfair, and entirely untrue.

[Chris is me]

This strategy has countermeasures, but seems like something extremely tricky. I don't want to call choke-hold just yet though. I want to see a team park wide in front of the tunnel, perfectly centered, for example. Alternately, defense of the return or initial ball hoarding.

[Lil' Lavery]

Second - they've got traction wheels. Someone here says they do well when not locked on - that really isn't very true. They have difficulty turning, aren't very fast, and can't do much of anything if defended. That isn't a knock on their bot. Frankly, it's incredibly effective at what is does. There is NO OTHER WAY you're going to average 1 ball every 4 seconds.

Third - they physically lock onto the tower. With large aluminum plates. There's pretty much no point in trying to move them.

Fourth - you can block them. You have to travel partially into the tunnel at an angle. A number of teams were at the practice field programming auton to do exactly that. Once you stop them from locking in, there no better (and in fact a bit worse) than many other bots. They have a good kicker and a good ball sucker, but they are slow-slow-slow. Don't count on that continuing long though - they're Las Guerillas after all.


I didn't mean to imply that they're great when not in the tower. But if you watch Qual34 (linked earlier in the thread), you can see them score 4 goals (all from the middle zone) and advance one more when not in the tower. That's not incredible, but it's certainly a solid performance. That's certainly good enough to be on most elimination alliances, and tip the favor of the match towards their alliance (considering the other alliance will essentially be playing down a member).

Granted, I don't pretend to have as in depth a knowledge of the machine as people as the event. Their strategy and design are certainly very dependent on their partners for success. It will be interesting to see how effective they are moving forward.

[Vikesrock]

You can catch some of 469 here, but none of it as impressive as their semifinal and final matches.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5391497

Match 28 00:07:45
Match 34 01:04:56 (they can be defended against!)
Match 39 01:58:54

Much of what they did in the elims was off camera in these matches.

Match 28: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5391497/highlight/55850
Match 34: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5391497/highlight/55851
Match 39: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5391497/highlight/55852

It appears they only redirect in the first of these three matches and the camera doesn't actually show them redirecting :(

[thexman]

If your defender can get balls out of the infinite loop then you can have some fun with a 2v1 in your mid and home zones. If you can clear zones during auton, they have maximum 3 balls in their loop. With 9 balls in your control, you should be able to at least keep up.

edit: awkward wording

[nuggetsyl]

[QUOTE=Lil' Lavery;936522]The ramp is a mechanism, but the ball never more than within 3" of it, so therefor it is not a penalty. Per the last sentence of the Q&A you quoted:


That is like saying if you build a high enough robot where the ball does not touch it when it drives over the ball there is no penalty. Its still a 3 inch violation. But even if i am wrong which i left my self to be corrected because there was no clear video of how the robot works I think it breaks the spirit of the rule. My biggest problem with this robot is they wedge themselves under the tower and use a rule meant for hanging to accomplish this task. Its clear they are not trying to hang early.

[Squeakypig]

2851 was the only team to develop an auton to stop guerillas, it worked in the quals (match 60, a video would be appreciated :) ) we gave our auton code to 313 in playoffs but they got pushed out of the way...guess it shows you need treaded wheels like ours to stand your ground against a bot like that.

O, and seriously, let's face it, we weren't winning that match-up lol.
(for reference 313, 2851, 314 vs 217, 469, 2960)

Is it weird that after it was 16-1 our team started cheering for the opposing alliance to break a record? lol

[Lil' Lavery]

The ramp is a mechanism, but the ball never more than within 3" of it, so therefor it is not a penalty. Per the last sentence of the Q&A you quoted:


That is like saying if you build a high enough robot where the ball does not touch it when it drives over the ball there is no penalty. Its still a 3 inch violation. But even if i am wrong which i left my self to be corrected because there was no clear video of how the robot works I think it breaks the spirit of the rule. My biggest problem with this robot is they wedge themselves under the tower and use a rule meant for hanging to accomplish this task. Its clear they are not trying to hang early.

The Q&A clearly stated it's acceptable to be within 3" of the vertical projection of the frame perimeter, so long as it's not within 3" of the mechanism.
It's not the same as driving over the ball, as clearly stated by <R19>
<R19> ROBOTS must be designed so that in normal operation BALLS cannot extend more than 3 inches inside
a) the FRAME PERIMETER below the level of the BUMPER ZONE (see Figure 8-5),
b) a MECHANISM or feature designed or used to deflect BALLS in a controlled manner that is above the level of the BUMPER ZONE.

[Tom Line]

2851 was the only team to develop an auton to stop guerillas, it worked in the quals (match 60, a video would be appreciated :) ) we gave our auton code to 313 in playoffs but they got pushed out of the way...guess it shows you need treaded wheels like ours to stand your ground against a bot like that.

O, and seriously, let's face it, we weren't winning that match-up lol.
(for reference 313, 2851, 314 vs 217, 469, 2960)

Is it weird that after it was 16-1 our team started cheering for the opposing alliance to break a record? lol

Not wierd at all, though I wasn't cheering. I was more staring in disbelief.

At one point they scored SO FAST that balls coming down the return shoot got log-jammed because they touched eachother and stopped rolling. Amazing. The announcer even made a joke of it:

"Don't worry folks - it's already 11 to 1, I'm pretty sure they're going to win no matter what."

It really was that one sided once they got there - but just like beatty way back when, there are ways to prevent them from getting in place, and a good fast bot CAN catch those balls before they go in and send them down to the other end of the field - but it's tricky!

Edit: The even sicker part is they continue to score after the game is over. Balls continue to roll down and get returned for the 10 seconds after control is cut, and the score keeps going up.

[Squeakypig]

the jam didn't happen during our match...but yes. But honestly, even if we prevent the guerrillas from lodging themselves into position 217 most likely cud have won it on their own.

To all programmers out there, I say we make a pledge. Not meaning to screw over 469, but I say we all have an auton to block them (load it only when needed, easy to do (in labview put ur code in a boolean box and set a constant up to it, resend code before matches changing boolean when needed)). Believe me, it's easy, it took 2 minutes.

(And now watch, Guerrillas are gonna see this and have some sweet auton that unlodges robots from the hole somehow and gets there anyways lol)

[johnr]

the reason no one can move them is that they have a springboard that goes under the tunnel and actually lifts up on the tower. They are effectively wedged in their position. This actually causes a problem; In one of the semis or finals (I dont remeber) they lifted the tower so much that the balls wouldnt roll down the return rails... so chickens decided to high speed ram it and bend it all out of wack in order to get them to come down... but no penalties were called so they were all good.

They should have been warned then disabled according to g24 if they really moved the tower. Im sure smarter people here will tell me i'm wrong if i read the rule wrong.

[Cory]

Fifth - Corey, there were good teams at Cass Tech. However, the Guerilla's have a reasonably simply answer to that. The person in their offensive zone plays DEFENSE on the bot there. That way the guerillas can shoot to the clear side of the field. They had occasional problems during qualifications when they didn't have a good offensive partner to get the balls in to get the cycle started, or if they missed their shot in auton.

Maybe suck was a poor choice of words. The robots didn't necessarily suck, but the strategy sucked.

Attempting to stop the balls from rolling into the goals after 469 deflects them is never going to work. You have to take balls out of their loop. If you're the defensive bot in their zone you HAVE to clear balls out to midfield or your own scoring zone. If you just run back and forth trying to keep the balls from rolling into the goals you're constantly going to be playing 1v2 and trying to keep 2 opponents from scoring, or you'll be totally neutralized by one bot while the other scores at will.

If they have 8 or 12 balls and they're cycling them every 4-8 seconds, you're done.

[Brandon Holley]

That is like saying if you build a high enough robot where the ball does not touch it when it drives over the ball there is no penalty. Its still a 3 inch violation. But even if i am wrong which i left my self to be corrected because there was no clear video of how the robot works I think it breaks the spirit of the rule. My biggest problem with this robot is they wedge themselves under the tower and use a rule meant for hanging to accomplish this task. Its clear they are not trying to hang early.


Your assessment of the 3" rule (R19) is completely wrong, as Sean pointed out. There are two very different provisions of R19, one for below the bumper zone and one for above.

As a member of a team who has a built a robot extremely similar in function to 469, I can say I have thought about that particular rule extensively.


-Brando

[Steven670]

The 26-1 match is at
http://www.youtube.com/user/quicksilverblitz#p/u/28/PJh_tb9Ox6A

[Tom Line]

Maybe suck was a poor choice of words. The robots didn't necessarily suck, but the strategy sucked.

Attempting to stop the balls from rolling into the goals after 469 deflects them is never going to work. You have to take balls out of their loop. If you're the defensive bot in their zone you HAVE to clear balls out to midfield or your own scoring zone. If you just run back and forth trying to keep the balls from rolling into the goals you're constantly going to be playing 1v2 and trying to keep 2 opponents from scoring, or you'll be totally neutralized by one bot while the other scores at will.

If they have 8 or 12 balls and they're cycling them every 4-8 seconds, you're done.

Absolutely. Unfortunately once they got even a few balls into the loop, chickens started playing D on the opposing robot (who should have been the robot playing D) and there was no way to stop the loop. Remember you can only put one defensive robot in that zone - that's the rub.

The only effective way to stop is to not let them start it.

[JGurnow]

<G24> ARENA Interaction – With the exception of the BALL RETURN and RETURN BARS, ROBOTS may push or react against any elements of the ARENA, provided there is no damage or disruption of the ARENA elements. With the exception of the TOWER, ROBOTS may not grab, grasp, grapple, or attach to any ARENA structure. Violation: A warning will be issued when a ROBOT violates this rule. If the referee determines that the TEAM is disregarding the warning, their ROBOT will be disabled for the remainder of the MATCH.

At the event how 469 handled the getting into position was: going under the tower deploying the wedge/latched to prevent being pushed out. The shifting of the towers was less then that caused by robots hanging. Las Guerillas doesn't touch the ball return and their mechanism meets all 3 inch incursion rules. As for trying to stop them from getting into position I can tell you this, you won't win in a pushing match against 469. They can be an 8-wheel tank drive. They have pneumatic wheels, they have so much grip that they had to get creative with the turning solutions.

The match that our alliance scored 25 points in had 0 balls scored in autonomous. We did however have all 6 of out alliances starting balls in our home zone and were able to take 2 more from the middle zone when crossed that zone. We were mostly cycling 6 of the 8 balls we had in our home zone. The fact of the matter is with only 6 balls cycling human players have a major role in the rate of scoring. The last 2 points of the match were scored after time had expired and balls were still returning to the field, there are 10 seconds after the match where objects in motion are allowed to stop. 25 balls in 130 seconds was a rate of about a ball every 4-5 seconds. We wouldn't have been able to get any where near as high if our alliances human players hadn't worked so hard. I also want to thank all teams human players at Cass Tech for there great work at the district, I didn't see a single penalty caused by a human player during the entirety of the event.

In the final match of the day team 226, the Hammerheads, were the robot defending in our home zone. They were able to stop many of the kicks, they ran into the problem where they had to cross the zone while being blocked by 2960 or 217. We started the cycle going and cleaned up any missed shots. The final score that round was, I believe, 15-1. 469 can score as long as a half of the field is open, there is only a single defending robot in the zone so they couldn't effectively move against a defensive bot.

Thanks for the great alliance at Cass Tech 469 and 2960, looking forward to seeing you at State Championship.

[AmoryG]

As a member of a team who has a built a robot extremely similar in function to 469, I can say I have thought about that particular rule extensively.

I've been wanting to see what you guys made this year for awhile, but man that sounds so ominous. I'm not sure I could handle the awesomeness.

[Rion Atkinson]

That is like saying if you build a high enough robot where the ball does not touch it when it drives over the ball there is no penalty. Its still a 3 inch violation. But even if i am wrong which i left my self to be corrected because there was no clear video of how the robot works I think it breaks the spirit of the rule. My biggest problem with this robot is they wedge themselves under the tower and use a rule meant for hanging to accomplish this task. Its clear they are not trying to hang early.

Where is it in the rules that it says "You can only break the frame perimeter, if and only if, you are attempting to hang"? And, you said "the spirit of the rule", which I don't agree with. Was the rule not changed until after a question about a design like this was posted on the Q&A? FIRST is here to teach us to think outside of the box. If we come up with an amazing game changing design that is hindered by a slight rule, it seems like they are all for it.

Just my thoughts. Take it or leave it. I don't mean to sound cruel, sorry about that.

-Rion

[Chris is me]

That is like saying if you build a high enough robot where the ball does not touch it when it drives over the ball there is no penalty. Its still a 3 inch violation. But even if i am wrong which i left my self to be corrected because there was no clear video of how the robot works I think it breaks the spirit of the rule. My biggest problem with this robot is they wedge themselves under the tower and use a rule meant for hanging to accomplish this task. Its clear they are not trying to hang early.

In my opinion, in a game where 99% of robots look and perform nearly identically... I'm refreshed and thrilled that the GDC accommodated for a gutsy, outside the box strategy like this one.

[AmoryG]

In my opinion, in a game where 99% of robots look and perform nearly identically... I'm refreshed and thrilled that the GDC accommodated for a gutsy, outside the box strategy like this one.

Indeed. Atleast last year you got a nice variety of shooters/turrets and dumpers. This year there are kickers, kickers, and more kickers.

[Zme]

while there is not a variety in the type of robot (i.e. mainly kickers) there is a variety in how they perform, there are some kickers that can't clear a bump, there are some that are variable tension, there are some that loft a ball all the way down field and there are some that are down right dangerous for humans to be around with out proper safety precautions. its not what you have on the bot per say, its what you do with it that counts.

now as for 469 winning all pushing matches that remains to be seen. i'd like to see what happens when a team with a similar drive comes flipping through the opposite end of the tunnel at full speed. it may be a case of immovable object and irresistible force, any guesses on what would give first?

[Cory]

now as for 469 winning all pushing matches that remains to be seen. i'd like to see what happens when a team with a similar drive comes flipping through the opposite end of the tunnel at full speed. it may be a case of immovable object and irresistible force, any guesses on what would give first?

If 469 is wedging against the top of the tunnel there's no way you're going to move them. They have a huge advantage in increased normal force as well as being physically constrained by the field. Nobody is going to have so much traction that they can overcome that.

[Rion Atkinson]

If 469 is wedging against the top of the tunnel there's no way you're going to move them. They have a huge advantage in increased normal force as well as being physically constrained by the field. Nobody is going to have so much traction that they can overcome that.

Maybe it's not traction you need... F=m*a So would a robot that weighs around 110 pounds(maybe 120, which would put it 130 with the battery) so with enough acceleration, (driving right under the tunnel) couldn't they pop it out, and then push them backwards enough to disrupt the strategy? (Not saying I would recommend this, I'm just saying it's possible.)

Just my $.02

[Lil' Lavery]

Maybe it's not traction you need... F=m*a So would a robot that weighs around 110 pounds(maybe 120, which would put it 130 with the battery) so with enough acceleration, (driving right under the tunnel) couldn't they pop it out, and then push them backwards enough to disrupt the strategy? (Not saying I would recommend this, I'm just saying it's possible.)

Just my $.02

Keep in mind that 469 is able to apply a force in opposite direction that this robot is pushing. Your acceleration (and therefor your force in the "pushing axis") is hinged upon the force you apply to the floor (very same F=ma equation you mentioned). That force is limited by the friction that the robot can generate, which is governed by the coefficient of friction of the wheels and the normal force of the robot. Because of 469's mechanism, their normal force is going to be much larger than the pushing robot, and thus they're going to have a much higher "pushing force" than the robot trying to dislodge them. And on top of that they have the forces being applied to them by the tower.

I don't think you'll see 469 budge.

[Chris is me]

Maybe it's not traction you need... F=m*a So would a robot that weighs around 110 pounds(maybe 120, which would put it 130 with the battery) so with enough acceleration, (driving right under the tunnel) couldn't they pop it out, and then push them backwards enough to disrupt the strategy? (Not saying I would recommend this, I'm just saying it's possible.)

Just my $.02

I think between bumpers and the kit motors, you're effectively only going to be able to scoot them an inch or so. The bumpers I believe severely decrease the impulse.

Obstructing the tower entirely is not impossible with the right drivetrain and careful programming.

[AmoryG]

Maybe it's not traction you need... F=m*a So would a robot that weighs around 110 pounds(maybe 120, which would put it 130 with the battery) so with enough acceleration, (driving right under the tunnel) couldn't they pop it out, and then push them backwards enough to disrupt the strategy? (Not saying I would recommend this, I'm just saying it's possible.)

Just my $.02

Frictional force is found by taking the force and multiplying it by the coefficient of friction. Really, they're equally important. Having a coefficient of 1.5 will help you a lot more than if you had a coefficient of .5.

[Rion Atkinson]

Keep in mind that 469 is able to apply a force in opposite direction that this robot is pushing. Your acceleration (and therefor your force in the "pushing axis") is hinged upon the force you apply to the floor (very same F=ma equation you mentioned). That force is limited by the friction that the robot can generate, which is governed by the coefficient of friction of the wheels and the normal force of the robot. Because of 469's mechanism, their normal force is going to be much larger than yours, and they're going to have a much higher normal force (and therefor a larger "pushing force") than the robot trying to dislodge them. And on top of that they have the forces being applied to them by the tower.

I don't think you'll see 469 budge.

Very good point... I hadn't considered them pushing against you at the same time.

I think this may be the last time I talk about physics to a bunch of people a whole lot smarter that me...

[Zme]

take a look at 703, they are the kind of powerhouse pusher that i was thinking of. my understanding of this is if you hit things hard and often they break so while it is not very gracious or professional, a battering ram style robot could weaken them through metal fatigue if given enough time to do so. also, if they are already moving the tower/platform some wouldn't hitting them hard do it more and potentially cause field damage? its kind of hard to say not having actually seen this mechanism up close but from my experience with FIRST, as soon as you say something can't be done someone will go and do it just to prove you wrong.

either way though, great job, great design, you've made us think and hopefully learn, keep it up 469

[Vikesrock]

so while it is not very gracious or professional, a battering ram style robot could weaken them through metal fatigue if given enough time to do so.

And probably earn a red card and a massive amount of ill will for their trouble. Why would anyone try to purposely destroy another team's machine knowing how much time and effort went into it and how you would feel if someone did the same to your machine?

[Chris is me]

And probably earn a red card and a massive amount of ill will for their trouble. Why would anyone try to purposely destroy another team's machine knowing how much time and effort went into it and how you would feel if someone did the same to your machine?

Though to be completely fair, intentional destruction and hard, "wasn't legal until 2009 but is now" ramming defense isn't something you can tell the difference between.

[Zme]

i am in no way condoning the action, and for what its worth we can't fit into the tunnel to even attempt it,

i am simply saying that over time their mechanism will weaken, unless they watch it they could run into issues,

in reading the rules i don't recall anything about ramming violations though, can someone point me at the rule please? its good to have that sort of thing on hand at times

[Vikesrock]

in reading the rules i don't recall anything about ramming violations though, can someone point me at the rule please? its good to have that sort of thing on hand at times

This is the closest thing we have this year:

<G36> ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed. Violation: YELLOW CARD

[Zme]

Thanks,

in reading that i have to agree with Chris is me, it sounds like a very fine line to walk, very very hard to tell the difference so i guess it would depend on the ref

[Chris is me]

My other 2 cents.

If you're still stuck in the mindset that defense = pushing, you'll not only surely lose against 469, but in most Breakaway matches.

[Akash Rastogi]

Though to be completely fair, intentional destruction and hard, "wasn't legal until 2009 but is now" ramming defense isn't something you can tell the difference between.

To be perfectly honest, we were willing to ram teams to play defense until we were called out on it (which we weren't). That was one of the fun parts of facing off against mechanum drives this year.

Although we did get an email from the NJ regional about the torn up carpet, broken pieces of lexan, and the fact that we moved the bump several times during matches. :rolleyes: Woops. Won't happen again.

[Austin2046]

i searched youtube and found this... not the best quality... but you can see how 469 does it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJh_tb9Ox6A

[sparrowkc]

Somebody found video of it:
Hey guys,

So I did some digging on youtube, and there are a few videos on 469. They're kinda low quality, but you take what you can get...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJh_tb9Ox6A - Semis #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXTSVZJcaYc - Finals #1

My first thought is that the best defense against this is to climb onto the bump right next to their tower. This way they can only deflect towards one goal, which your goalie can sit in front of. Then all you have to do is win the match with a single offensive robot...

[dodar]

Ya against this have someone park in front of the goal and have the other pester 469 by getting on the tower, then just keep scoring on the other side

[Chris Hibner]

Attempting to stop the balls from rolling into the goals after 469 deflects them is never going to work. You have to take balls out of their loop. If you're the defensive bot in their zone you HAVE to clear balls out to midfield or your own scoring zone. If you just run back and forth trying to keep the balls from rolling into the goals you're constantly going to be playing 1v2 and trying to keep 2 opponents from scoring, or you'll be totally neutralized by one bot while the other scores at will.

If they have 8 or 12 balls and they're cycling them every 4-8 seconds, you're done.

Our robot was designed from the beginning the have the same function as 469. We've been keeping our mouth shut in the "Ultimate Game Breaker Bot" until the cat was out of the bag on this strategy. But anyway, we've put a lot of thought into the strategy and the "throughput cycle" as we call it.

There are a number of issue with defending it. I'm still going to keep my mouth shut on most of them. However, I just want to point out one thing: you don't need 8-12 balls in the cycle. Not even close. Depending on how fast your human player is and how well you box out, all you need is 3-5 balls in the cycle- any more than that won't increase your score.

[David Dawson]

469 can be stopped with a simple strategy. Just "hit them" the ball only sits 3" inside of the the ramp. So when we played them in the Cass tech finals 305 gave them a slight tap to knock the balls off their ramp and it worked just about every single time....Only problem was we couldn't stop 217 from scoring, and lets face it those guys can win a match 3 vs 1.

[JesseK]

The counter to the counter of this strategy simply takes all three robots on offense. 469 redirects, one team mate pins the defense, the other team mate cleans up. Swap up who pins the defense when necessary. Start with the 6 balls from auton in the forward zone and it's pretty much a sealed deal. The only counter to that strategy would be a 148/1114/etc type of bot how can grab the ball and kick it 2 zones away very quickly using a good drive train and kicker.

[Thuperscout]

469 can be stopped with a simple strategy. Just "hit them" the ball only sits 3" inside of the the ramp. So when we played them in the Cass tech finals 305 gave them a slight tap to knock the balls off their ramp and it worked just about every single time....Only problem was we couldn't stop 217 from scoring, and lets face it those guys can win a match 3 vs 1.

Thanks. But in the finals didn't team 308 get red carded for trying that srategy? For hitting 469 while they were in contact with the tower? I'm almost positive they did... and a red card wiped their score.. So that strategy is out.

[David Dawson]

That did happen only because they where hitting in the last 20 seconds.

[Don Wright]

We thank everyone for all the compliments/comments about our robot. However, without 217 and 2960, it wouldn't have happened.

2960 played awesome offensive zone defense and 217 basically stole every ball on the field and scored them... There is a reason this was 217's second win in 2010 already and they went undefeated this weekend... They are unbelievable...

Thanks for picking us 217 and it was fun to play with 2960 finally!

See everyone in Troy, MSC, and ATL...

[ThunderKate]

It was you guys who were absolutely amazing Don. We make quite the team huh? (:

[JGurnow]

That did happen only because they where hitting in the last 20 seconds.

In the last 20 seconds, plus the 10 seconds after the match ends where balls are still called, that is 5-6 balls that will have been scored. During all of elims 469 scored at least 1 ball after the match ended and 3 in one of the cases.

As long as an alliance can maintain possession of there balls and return them quickly to their home zone they can score large amounts.

You also need to think about how during that match 2 blue robots were trying to stop 1 red robot from scoring. There was one robot preventing the defender from being effective and there was still a second scoring robot that was uncontested while blue had a single robot scoring and no other robot to return the balls from mid zone to. Having a deflector bot in mid zone is a good strategy, even if they don't score you maintain control of the balls.

The human players start to bottleneck when you are scoring more then 6 balls quickly, so as long you maintain all the balls you get into your zone from auton you can score very well.

[BJC]

It was you guys who were absolutely amazing Don. We make quite the team huh? (:

I'll say...

I have a feeling this will not be the end of the los chickens...
If 217 seeds first at Troy and / or the Michigan Champs you will ofcourse pick them again.

[Paul Copioli]

BJC,

If whoever is the number 1 seed at Troy doesn't pick 469, then that team strategy head should be fired. I would expect that the Killer Bees would pick 469 if you were #1 seed. Unless something drastically happens to their robot, if (and that is a big if) 217 is the #1 seed at Troy, the I will be surprised if 469 is not the #1 pick.

They were the easy #1 pick for us, but 1718, 226, and 2612 were very high on our list. 2612 did a ridiculous job of defending balls in our home zone. They stopped at least 15 from going in the goals.

If you have the chance to check out the 469 robot, please do. It is an amazing machine. Once they are in the tunnel, they actually grab the lower bar of the tower so there is no moving them once they are locked.

Good luck to any team trying to come up with a defense against them. I know we are scratching our heads as it is much more likely we will have to play against them in the next few weeks rather than with them.

469 has come up with an amazing machine this year and whoever wins the "469 Lottery" will have a lot of fun playing with them.

[Thuperscout]

That did happen only because they where hitting in the last 20 seconds.

Ah, I see. I had a conversation with my friends on another team and thats what he said too. If thats the case, then the best strategy i think is for the same alliance, would be to have 217 do the same thing, but also play defense on that one robot in its spare time, while 469 does its thing, and 2960 plays defense on the remaining robot in the middle zone. If both of the othere alliance's bots are brought into the middle zone, then that leaves them with no one to score, and they are bound to lose... i don't think that 217 and 469 can be beat. Yes the hitting 469 does make it so the huge number of points doesn't occur, but still i don't think a win can be prevented. Solution: Beat us in seeding in qualifications round.

[BJC]

BJC,

If whoever is the number 1 seed at Troy doesn't pick 469, then that team strategy head should be fired. I would expect that the Killer Bees would pick 469 if you were #1 seed. Unless something drastically happens to their robot, if (and that is a big if) 217 is the #1 seed at Troy, the I will be surprised if 469 is not the #1 pick.

They were the easy #1 pick for us, but 1718, 226, and 2612 were very high on our list. 2612 did a ridiculous job of defending balls in our home zone. They stopped at least 15 from going in the goals.

If you have the chance to check out the 469 robot, please do. It is an amazing machine. Once they are in the tunnel, they actually grab the lower bar of the tower so there is no moving them once they are locked.

Good luck to any team trying to come up with a defense against them. I know we are scratching our heads as it is much more likely we will have to play against them in the next few weeks rather than with them.

469 has come up with an amazing machine this year and whoever wins the "469 Lottery" will have a lot of fun playing with them.

lol OF COURSE! Don't worry I have seen their robot via webcast. I wasn't being trying to be derogitory toward you if I came off that way. Its slimply a fact that you have a great robot, will probably be seeded first, and then will pick 469. Its all the other teams that have to think of how to beat you guys (910, 27, 33, etc.)

[Paul Copioli]

lol OF COURSE! Don't worry I have seen their robot via webcast. I wasn't being trying to be derogitory toward you if I came off that way. Its slimply a fact that you have a great robot, will probably be seeded first, and then will pick 469. Its all the other teams that have to think of how to beat you guys (910, 27, 33, etc.)


I didn't take it that way at all. The teams you listed are pretty darn good this year and I bet they will even be better in the later events. I am excited for Troy, but I am currently focused on the Dallas Regional where I will be drive coaching for 148 for the first time. I have some pretty big shoes to fill as JVN has been the 148 drive coach for the last 3 years.

[Lil' Lavery]

217 needs to use some more avatars other than their team logo. Or at least use some WAI pics. This thread is confusing.

[Thuperscout]

217 needs to use some more avatars other than their team logo. Or at least use some WAI pics. This thread is confusing.

lol =) But hey do you know how to get the teams record from the bule alliance in your signature? i see it all the time but dont know how.

[rutzman]

On TBA go to your team page and click "Team Badges" on the right hand side.

[The Lucas]

lol =) But hey do you know how to get the teams record from the bule alliance in your signature? i see it all the time but dont know how.

On TBA go to your team page and click "Team Badges" on the right hand side.

Put this URL in your Sig:
http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/teambadge/teambadge_gen.php?team=217&start=00FF33&stop=66FF33

If you want the same badge as Paul and to continue confusing everyone :confused:

[Thuperscout]

Thanks a lot guys. And yeah... sorry but its so good lookin to have it..

[billbcc91]

My regards and sincere thanks to both team 217 and 469. Besides having outstanding robots (217 hasn't gotten the credit they deserve for the elim results, and 469 deserves all the credit they've gotten) both teams are full of a lot of great people.

We wouldn't have been available to be picked if 469 hadn't given us some great technical help during qualifying. Our robot was glitching all day before we finally got straightened out in our 2nd to last match. Then both teams were very gracious with parts and an excellent strategy during elims. Our best matches of the day came in elimination round -- a credit to the perseverance of our students and help from our fellow competitors.

Looking forward to seeing both teams in Troy. We're going to be a lot better, but I'm sure so will the competition. Our students had a great time and are glad we could contribute to a little bit of history in the making. It couldn't have been more fun to set picks and let the big guys do the scoring -- prolifically!

Mentor - 2960 Seaholm High School

[Mike Copioli]

Sean, will this avatar do?

Great job to 2960 and 469. Dan, it was a pleasure to get the chance to coach with you for the first time. You guys have an amazing robot and I hope we will get to work together again soon. 2960 you guys played some excellent defense in the home zone. I am looking forward to seeing you guys at Troy. 2612, 2673, 308 you guys were great. Congratulations for making it to the finals. I wish you all the best of luck in your future events and hope to see you in Atlanta.

[BrendanB]

Sean, will this avatar do?

.

Yes, we recognize it as you, but all of the 217 kids have the same avatar and no WAI's it does get confusing. Then again, my WAI won't work for me anymore (no idea why) so I need a new one soon.


Congrats team 469 on such a cool robot, I can't wait to see it in Atlanta! Good luck with the rest of your season.

[Lil' Lavery]

Side note, I was just jesting about the 217 avatars. The kind of branding you guys do with it is rather cool.

[quinxorin]

And it looks like 469 simply cannot manage to beat thier high score. They played another match with 26 points today.

[apalrd]

And it looks like 469 simply cannot manage to beat thier high score. They played another match with 26 points today.

Against us who scored 12. New highest combined score for the season.

[O'Sancheski]

no one is going to beat 26... the only way you will ever score that many is if your alliance partners are 469 and 217

[byteit101]

someone got 58 in the SF or Finals at Buckeye!

[End of match buzzer]
[Head ref looks for penalties]
(announcer)
And It looks like a penalty free game!
[Head ref signs something, announcer makes a joke about it]


The score is now official! 4-0 in favor of the blue alliance.
[scoreboard shows 53 penalties]
[confusion ensues]
[2-3 minutes pass]

[scoreboard updated with 58 and 53 penalties for red]
[some laughter ensues]
The score is in favor of the red alliance!

[NC GEARS]

no one is going to beat 26... the only way you will ever score that many is if your alliance partners are 469 and 217

We were with 469 and got 26pts with them. Final score 26-12....

[Ian Curtis]

And it looks like 469 simply cannot manage to beat thier high score. They played another match with 26 points today.

They definitely had an opportunity to beat it today. 217 was on their alliance, and alliance member number 3 (don't recall the number) was in the near zone. The defending robot in their zone never moved. However, partner #3 took a bit to hit their stride, so by the time the loop was going full bore, there was only 40 seconds left or so. Had the loop started earlier, they definitely could've smashed the record.

Maybe Car Nack paid them off. :P

[BHOP]

my team was in that match against 469 and 217. I showed up late to find out that everyone on my team is against playing 6v0(???).

Can someone explain to me why my team wouldn't want to play 6v0 against 469(good), 217(good), and I beleive 1789?(fighting pi also good)? we were with robots that were rookies and stuff...

Luckily our robot didn't move, so we didn't embarrass ourself by not playing 6v0, but had we been helping them I think we could have easily hit 30 points. i'm sad that my team did not want to be a part of the highest scoring match this season...

[rwood359]

Can someone explain to me why my team wouldn't want to play 6v0 against 469(good), 217(good), and I beleive 1789?(fighting pi also good)? we were with robots that were rookies and stuff...
Pride.

I don't know of a MLB pitcher that wanted to give up a record breaking Homer or an NFL defense that put their hands down to allow a record breaking catch.

[FRC4ME]

my team was in that match against 469 and 217. I showed up late to find out that everyone on my team is against playing 6v0(???).

Can someone explain to me why my team wouldn't want to play 6v0 against 469(good), 217(good), and I beleive 1789?(fighting pi also good)? we were with robots that were rookies and stuff...

Luckily our robot didn't move, so we didn't embarrass ourself by not playing 6v0, but had we been helping them I think we could have easily hit 30 points. i'm sad that my team did not want to be a part of the highest scoring match this season...

It wouldn't be much of a record-breaking score if it only happened because the opponent's weren't playing the game, would it?

[JackG]

It wouldn't be much of a record-breaking score if it only happened because the opponent's weren't playing the game, would it?


The answer is that it's a record nonetheless, and the teams who achieved it wouldn't have done so if they weren't at least slightly deserving. How much significance or esteem you want to assign to that record achieved under the extenuating circumstances is up to you.

[FRC4ME]

The answer is that it's a record nonetheless, and the teams who achieved it wouldn't have done so if they weren't at least slightly deserving. How much significance or esteem you want to assign to that record achieved under the extenuating circumstances is up to you.

I think I might have been unclear. I was merely stating that playing 6v0 to achieve a record score wouldn't be worth it to me.

The fact that one of the opposing alliance's robots didn't move during this record-setting match does not diminish its significance, IMO.

[Thermal]

I think I might have been unclear. I was merely stating that playing 6v0 to achieve a record score wouldn't be worth it to me.

The fact that one of the opposing alliance's robots didn't move during this record-setting match does not diminish its significance, IMO.

I don't know, I think I would be able to swallow my pride for 30 seed points easy...

[Kimmeh]

Michigan State Champion Final match 1 tied 18-18

2834 469 1918 vs 67 217 2612

[bobrenjc93]

36 points in first match of michigan state championship

18-18 tie, 469 on one alliance, 217 on other

[Ty Tremblay]

36 points in first match of michigan state championship

18-18 tie, 469 on one alliance, 217 on other

Don't forget about 1918 and 67. This is one heck of a matchup.

[bobrenjc93]

36 points in first match of michigan state championship

18-18 tie, 469 on one alliance, 217 on other

sorry i meant first final

[bobrenjc93]

Don't forget about 1918 and 67. This is one heck of a matchup.

just watched the last match, this is truly amazing.

[ttldomination]

Wow...469 scored 2 points after the buzzer. That's what is a really big shocker, I heard the buzzer and was tied, but then I saw that 469 definitely had a couple of balls in their loop. Definitely intense!!!

[Jazonk]

While 18 - 18 was crazy, during qualification 25, 1918, 469, 3302 beat 2145, 1718 and 33, 26 - 12. Which is a total of 38.

[bassoondude]

While 18 - 18 was crazy, during qualification 25, 1918, 469, 3302 beat 2145, 1718 and 33, 26 - 12. Which is a total of 38.

And a total of 55 seeding points for 25, 1918, and 469.

[Uberbots]

217,469,2960

Good god at the first glance i thought that was the score!

[GaryVoshol]

And a total of 55 seeding points for 25, 1918, and 469.Which Dan K figured out about 1 second after the score was posted. You don't think those guys are sharp?