View Full Version : The 469 auto
So it looks like team 33 is going to be at the next two compitions with 469 :P
I was just wondering if something like this was aloud for the starting position.
---------------------------------------------
[R B B ]
| B B |
| BR B |
| B B |
| TT RTT |
| B B |
| R B B |
| B B R|
[ B B ]
----------------------------------------------
TT = tower/tunnel
B = Bump
[ = goal
R = robot
The robot in question would have their right front wheel touching the bump and they would not not start across the line. Then when auto starts they would drive straight into the tunnel at an angle wedgeing their front right side under so they could not be pushed out.
Close up of robot position after auto (top view)
R
R R
R RTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
R TR T
R T R T
R T R T
R T R T
-------------------- T----- R--------------------T------
S T R T
S S T R T
S S T R T
S T T
S RTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
S R
S
S
S
- = middle line
R = robot's position after auto
T = tower/tunnel
S = robot's starting position before auto
Would this be a solution to 469?
Your thoughts?
I'd like to understand your auton strategy, but it looks like your post got all messed up. Perhaps CD does not like too many spaces in a row. Try using the code tags, like this:
----------------------------------
Insert Field Here
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Aaaaaaaw it did...
that stinks ill redraw it in paint...
Ok I fixed ithttp://question
I hope this works
Nuttyman54
14-03-2010, 14:19
link still doesn't work...
469's strategy is brilliant, because in order to stop them you have to not only prevent them from getting to the tower first, but you also have to camp there the whole match so they never can get there, since once they're in position you really can't get them out. So while you're keeping them from getting to the tower they're free to do whatever they want. And you have to move out of the way in the last 20 second, or you'll get a penalty for contacting the opponent's tower...pretty beastly strategy, I can't wait to see video of them.
AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGG
Ok, basicly, line up on a 45 degree angle to the opponents tower with your front right wheel / side of your robot touching the bump right next to the tower. Then when auto starts your robot would drive straight into the tunnel on a 45 degree angle effectivly wedgeing the front right side of your robot under the tunnel so 469 can't be there. Because you are so close to the tunnel 469 couldn't beat you there even if they charged there without shooting their balls first.
Sorry about the not working picture / link:confused:
I don't think you would even have to move. Can't you pretty much block tunnel edge just by the placement of bot? This was tried but the bot doing the blocking didn't have traction and was pushed out of way. I think the idea of blocking is good but not the whole package. It will only throw their game off alittle. You will need good team mates, playing in the right positions. Man, Troy is going to be fun.
link still doesn't work...
469's strategy is brilliant, because in order to stop them you have to not only prevent them from getting to the tower first, but you also have to camp there the whole match so they never can get there, since once they're in position you really can't get them out. So while you're keeping them from getting to the tower they're free to do whatever they want. And you have to move out of the way in the last 20 second, or you'll get a penalty for contacting the opponent's tower...pretty beastly strategy, I can't wait to see video of them.
ya I realize that but lets say for instance 33, 910 and some other team was on an alliance against 469, 217 and some other team.
Senerio one: A effectivly a 3 on 1 with the third team to block/pin well 469 recycles balls and 217 puts in the misses. The other two teams try to keep up with them on the other side of the field but undoubtly fail, they can't keep up with a ball every 4 to 5 seconds.
Senerio two: In the beggining of the match our third team wedges themselves under the tower. Then team 33 now has a fighting chance for the balls in the middle. 469 has dificulty turning. However 217 is still a huge threat. 33 is now playing a 1 on 2 tring to shoot balls down to 910 to to score. We have to count on 910 ten being able to beat the defense and 33 quickly passing balls down. Overall, its not looking good.
ps. The reason I use these teams is because this is a realistic possibility at Troy in week 4.
Senerio
Did anyone have a bot at Cass that could redirect the balls back into middle after the balls rolled off 469? Was this even tried or is the ball to low coming off 469 to send it back over bump?
The balls are below the bump when the balls leave contact with their robot. You need to intercept the ball and kick it away to stop the strategy. Another team tried hitting the tower as the balls were coming down and that doesn't stop balls from being scoring.
Its a very good strategy, stop 469 and the match is 3v2, don't stop them and you can't outscore them.
469 has no problems pushing robots out of the way. It has obscene grip and is geared low to push anything out of the way. They can push and turn opposing robots with the bests of them.
Notes on 469's drivetrain:
8wd with pneumatic tires, 4 CIM through DW trans, I don't know the exact gearing.
Pneumatic articulated Front and Rear wheels (I don't think separately)
Pneumatic articulated ball casters in rear.
No ability to change zones (I guess they could go over the bump, but that probably wouldn't end well with that tower on top)
Pneumatic lock to tower - It locks to the bottom of the tower. They aren't just shoved in the tunnel, they are locked there. They aren't coming out once they get in, at all.
*should* turn well with outer wheels up
Autonomous start positions:
---------------------[OUR TOWER]----------------------
[their robot]
[Our robot]
--------------------[THEIR TOWER]----------------------
We can get to their tower before they can, if we can do it in Autonomous. Then they would be stuck playing a regular game, without recycling balls. I didn't get a good look at their ball-o-fier or kicker, but both exist and are capable of acquiring and kicking a ball.
Chris is me
14-03-2010, 17:59
The balls are below the bump when the balls leave contact with their robot. You need to intercept the ball and kick it away to stop the strategy.
If the balls are below the bump, then they're coming out under the Bumper Perimeter...
If the balls are below the bump, then they're coming out under the Bumper Perimeter...
I think he meant to say that the balls are below the bump when they leave the tower/bump area. Looks like they guide them down onto the back side of the bump to deflect them horizontally and eliminate bouncing.
Chris is me
14-03-2010, 18:27
I think he meant to say that the balls are below the bump when they leave the tower/bump area. Looks like they guide them down onto the back side of the bump to deflect them horizontally and eliminate bouncing.
In which case, you could have one defender in the zone and a second resting on the bump to stop transfers on one side.
Fennig247
14-03-2010, 18:28
So just to undermine this for a quick second, but what would it take to just play defense on the other 2 robots? if they dont score at all? and you stop the few couple balls 469 shot in during autonomous when they slide down the bump, would that not keep everything in contact to win a match?
Chris Hibner
14-03-2010, 18:39
So just to undermine this for a quick second, but what would it take to just play defense on the other 2 robots? if they dont score at all? and you stop the few couple balls 469 shot in during autonomous when they slide down the bump, would that not keep everything in contact to win a match?
I'm not 100% sure what you mean. If it's what I think you're saying, you can't defend both of the other robots since you're only allowed one defender in the opponent's offensive zone.
Greg Marra
14-03-2010, 18:44
Can someone clarify 469's strategy for those of us unfamiliar with their robot this year?
I'm not 100% sure what you mean. If it's what I think you're saying, you can't defend both of the other robots since you're only allowed one defender in the opponent's offensive zone.
I think what he means is to block one goal with your defensive robot and situate your midfield bot on top of the bump in such a way that they block the balls that roll off of 469's ramp.
While this strategy would be effective in shutting down the scoring loop, you would be playing 1v2 elsewhere on the field and 469 could decide to start moving around, which could result in 4-6 points from them and/or draw your defense away from the tower long enough to allow them to restart the scoring loop.
Can someone clarify 469's strategy for those of us unfamiliar with their robot this year?
For those who don't know 469 is this years game breaking robot.
Their stratagy is to sit under the bump and deflect balls directly from the ball return back into one of the goals. Theu can deflect into either and at Cass tech over the weekend they won a match 26-1.
We are currently figuring out how to beat them
Any ideas?:confused:
In which case, you could have one defender in the zone and a second resting on the bump to stop transfers on one side.
Another robot can't physically get in the way on the bump. Their mechanism has maybe 3-4 inches of space below it and the top of the bump. You can't get into that position without causing physical damage to 469 which is against the spirit of FIRST.
I don't think you quite get that when 469 is in position the rest of the alliance is in the homezone. Only one needs to defend a robot. The other robot is there for clean up.
469 could traverse the bump without the tower on it. I am unsure, as are they, about whether they could go over without flipping now.
On the contrary I am very aware of this.
The only way to prevent a blowout is to lodge yourself at a 45 degree angle in the tunnel in auto.
Then even with crazy traction 469 will have a hard time pushing someone out of that position who also has traction because their isn't a good way to push them from.
That being said it doesn't really matter anyway because for the next two regionals their in their pretty much going to be with you (217) so Troy and the Michigan Champs are going to see the exact same thing Cass tech did.
You can call me a pessimist but I call them as I see them.
Ok, some team in their six hour window just needs to build a robot that is strong, fast and agile. Now all you have to do is stop their first attempt and play heads up defence, pestering them but keeping yourself b/t them and the tower.
Chris Hibner
14-03-2010, 19:06
Another robot can't physically get in the way on the bump. Their mechanism has maybe 3-4 inches of space below it and the top of the bump. You can't get into that position without causing physical damage to 469 which is against the spirit of FIRST.
You could get there in autonomous by backing up a little bit, OR just do nothing in autonomous and back onto the bump as 469 unfolds their arms.
I think what he means is to block one goal with your defensive robot and situate your midfield bot on top of the bump in such a way that they block the balls that roll off of 469's ramp.
While this strategy would be effective in shutting down the scoring loop, you would be playing 1v2 elsewhere on the field and 469 could decide to start moving around, which could result in 4-6 points from them and/or draw your defense away from the tower long enough to allow them to restart the scoring loop.
What if 469 (or another team with similar capability) could also deflect balls straight ahead (in addition to directing them toward the goals). That would probably defeat that strategy as well.
But remember, they could push an elephant.:eek:
Oh well, at least teams will have a sort of fighting chance if someone lodges themselves under the tower before them.
gorrilla
14-03-2010, 19:22
But remember, they could push an elephant.:eek:
Oh well, at least teams will have a sort of fighting chance if someone lodges themselves under the tower before them.
What if you had a small robot that could fit sideways in the tunnel?
Could someone post a picture of 469?
And I thought you were not allowed to cross the white line in auto?
Chris Hibner
14-03-2010, 19:26
And I thought you were not allowed to cross the white line in auto?
You're not allowed to be ENTIRELY on the other side of the white line, but you're allowed to straddle it.
If it isn't obvious, I'm hooked on this thread. I need to shut off the laptop and do something useful.
Chris is me
14-03-2010, 19:27
What if you had a small robot that could fit sideways in the tunnel?
Could someone post a picture of 469?
And I thought you were not allowed to cross the white line in auto?
You can't completely cross it, but you can partially cross it.
You're not allowed to be ENTIRELY on the other side of the white line, but you're allowed to straddle it.
Correct considering 469 did it all Cass Tech without getting called I should hope its legal.:p
roboraven15
14-03-2010, 20:17
someone needs to copy their robot in a tiny 6 hour window and do the same on the other side lol good luck....
someone needs to copy their robot in a tiny 6 hour window and do the same on the other side lol good luck....
As long as it weighs less than 65 pounds, you could easily make an attachment for your existing robot before opening the bag and put it on in the 6 hour time. The tower itself isn't actually that heavy, its mostly open space.
Team 51 also has tried this strategy, except that they hang from the tower. If they can figure out how to do that quickly and consistently, we might have 2 Michigan teams that broke the system. MSC Finals could very well be 469 v 51!
thefro526
14-03-2010, 21:46
In theory, a team with a long based robot should be able to line up in the mid zone and with their long side parallel to the width of the field and then shoot over and block the tunnel with the long side in autonomous.
That'd be a pretty good way of stopping them from deploying their ball recirculating mechanism, but if they've still got a capable kicker you're probably wasting your time.
dman9385
14-03-2010, 23:03
469 is an amazing robot. My team went up against them in their last qualifying match. We set up on an angle by their tower and kept them out during their autonomous mode, however once they took control they were able to push us right out of the way. We programmed an autonomous to move us inside their tunnel just in case we saw them again, but we didn't. Good job 469
pfreivald
14-03-2010, 23:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cgh1887XDo
That robot is *sick*, but it can be beaten. Not easily, but it can be.
I hope!
Mr. B 2851
14-03-2010, 23:36
The 469 auto is beatable. Our programming team came up with an auton mode that wedged us at a 45 degree angle in the opposing alliance's tower during our second to last qualification match. We then played a game of cat and mouse and would dart out to kick some balls to our offensive zone and dart back to the tower to block them. They did manage to get past us and get into the tower by the end of the match but I don't believe they scored more than their auton shot in that match. We finished the match with a 2-2 tie which I considered a victory against them.
We tried to run the program on our alliance's robot with a similar auton in the semi-finals, but unfortunately team 313 was too tall and was unable to wedge in the tower. 469's auton just pushed their bot aside quite easily.
All-in-all it is an amazing robot... as long as they have a teammate who can score (as we painfully saw in the semi's!).
Bryan Battaglia
Mentor
Team 2851 Crevolution
Mr. B 2851
14-03-2010, 23:50
Here is a link to their incredible design in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TgjyRqrobc
Bryan Battaglia
Mentor
Team 2851 Crevolution
kavisiegel
15-03-2010, 01:00
The opposing alliance could just put a wall on their robot, drive straight up to the tunnel, and when the ball comes down 469's bot, it'll bounce off and hopefully go in the other direction. Problem is, the opposing alliance would have no defense... but 469's alliance would be down one on offence.
Must ... break ... infinite ... loop.
Easy to say, hard to do. The lone defensive robot must try to clear stray balls... but when one (or both) 469 alliance robots are playing defense in their home zone, it looks to be a challenge to break away and chase the strays.
Bravo to 469 on their elegant design. Really "breaks the game".
Is their drive (or whatever they have to keep them in place) too strong to stop other teams from going into the tunnel from their opponents zone and pushing them back away to the middle zone?
Mr. B 2851
15-03-2010, 05:52
Is their drive (or whatever they have to keep them in place) too strong to stop other teams from going into the tunnel from their opponents zone and pushing them back away to the middle zone?
I saw two teams try to do that. Neither were able to budge 469. A couple teams tried to ram the tower just as the ball left the return ramp. That worked to some extent, but the timing had to be perfect. The main problem in the elim matches is when 469 is paired up with a fast maneuverable shooter like 217 it doesn't really matter if they make the goal or not. If the opposing alliance is keeping 469's "shots" from going in, then the other bot has a field day scoring all the stray balls unopposed. If you try to defend against 217, then 469 destroys you! You have to block 469 from the tunnel in auton or your done if they have a good scorer on their team.
Bryan Battaglia
Mentor
Team 2851 Crevolution
There are a couple of ways to beat this. The first is as one of the previous poster's team did was to try to beat them to the tunnel in the autonomous mode and harass them enough to keep from setting up.
I think another way is to put in a defender with a kicker, one that can clear the ball out of the zone. They can't score if they don't have balls being fed to them, which means the defender needs to clear the balls out of the zone.
Watching the referenced videos, there were plenty of balls that didn't go right in the goal, that could have been cleared out of the zone if the defender could kick the ball.
Also, your robot is faster than the ball. Station your robot near the end of their ball drop and chase it ball down enough to disrupt it's path to the goal. Then clear it out of the zone.
- T
Is their drive (or whatever they have to keep them in place) too strong to stop other teams from going into the tunnel from their opponents zone and pushing them back away to the middle zone?
1. 469 has an 8wd with pneumatic tires, geared low. Not easy to push to begin with.
2. 469 latches to the bottom of the tower pneumatically. There is a horizontal bar under the platform. They grab on and don't let go.
gorrilla
15-03-2010, 13:29
1. 469 has an 8wd with pneumatic tires, geared low. Not easy to push to begin with.
2. 469 latches to the bottom of the tower pneumatically. There is a horizontal bar under the platform. They grab on and don't let go.
What if you had a robot start in the middle zone that beat them to the tunnel, then when teleop starts go completely into the tunnel. That way if they wanted to get into position they would have to push you out into their near-zone. But if you already have one of your alliances robots there they couldent move you out without getting penalized? Becuase you are not allowed to cause another team to get a penalty.....so then they would have to push you from the other side, but if they did that then they still couldent get into position unless they timed it perfectly.....
pfreivald
15-03-2010, 13:59
But if you already have one of your alliances robots there they couldent move you out without getting penalized?
Why? Because you are forced into your defensive zone? That just means the penalty won't be *scored*, not they they will be magically prohibited from shoving you out of the way.
...the other thing to consider is that it might be well worth a penalty to prevent them from being able to set up their ball recycler...
gorrilla
15-03-2010, 14:15
Why? Because you are forced into your defensive zone? That just means the penalty won't be *scored*, not they they will be magically prohibited from shoving you out of the way.
...the other thing to consider is that it might be well worth a penalty to prevent them from being able to set up their ball recycler...
Because you cannot have more than one robot in the opposing alliances goal zone, and if you have one there, and one in the tunnel, if they shoved you out they would get a penalty because you are not allowed to cause another alliance to get a penalized right?
Because you cannot have more than one robot in the opposing alliances goal zone, and if you have one there, and one in the tunnel, if they shoved you out they would get a penalty because you are not allowed to cause another alliance to get a penalized right?
Not allowing them to get a penalty doesn't result in getting a penalty yourself, just the other alliance not getting a penalty.
If 469 pushes you into your defensive zone, with another one of your allied partners and it wouldn't be penalized. You could then play defense on both goals, especially if they latch on and can't unlatch them self then you'll have to stay in that zone.
If 469 pushes you into your defensive zone, with another one of your allied partners and it wouldn't be penalized. You could then play defense on both goals, especially if they latch on and can't unlatch them self then you'll have to stay in that zone.
Very interesting, but thats stretching the rules quite a bit.
If you were to do this more than once the refferees would probably do something about it.
Frank Neuperger
15-03-2010, 15:38
Several loop bot and 469 countermeasures schemes in this thread.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84280
See post #10
If 469 pushes you into your defensive zone, with another one of your allied partners and it wouldn't be penalized. You could then play defense on both goals, especially if they latch on and can't unlatch them self then you'll have to stay in that zone.
If someone pushes you into your defensive zone (and one of your alliance partners is already there), no, you don't get penalized immediately, but you do have to get away as soon as they stop bugging you. You can't use the fact that they pushed you there to stay there indefinitely, and trying to defend the second goal is downright absurd.
In all of this talk, I haven't seen one person say this so I will. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. It's pretty obvious that 469 will not be top seed since they do not have a dominant solo bot, so why can YOU be top seed and pick them before anyone else gets a chance to? That's how you beat a 469 strategy. The only thing that stands in your way are other teams that can dominate on their own.
What I'm saying is if both bots (defensive, and midfield) are tunnel robots and they get stuck in the defensive zone by 469 they have no choice but to stay there. I mean this could be an extremely rare circumstance, but could happen. The only thing they could do is play defense.
Daniel_LaFleur
15-03-2010, 18:42
What I'm saying is if both bots (defensive, and midfield) are tunnel robots and they get stuck in the defensive zone by 469 they have no choice but to stay there. I mean this could be an extremely rare circumstance, but could happen. The only thing they could do is play defense.
<G29> Defending ROBOT Restriction - Only one opposing ALLIANCE ROBOT is allowed in the opponent’s ZONE. A ROBOT is considered in this ZONE if any part of the ROBOT is in contact with the ZONE's green carpet. Violation: PENALTY; plus a RED CARD if effort to remedy is not immediate.
Emphisis mine.
They must try and get out (IE they cannot just go and guard their goals because 469 is "in the way")
Radical Pi
17-03-2010, 22:00
What I'm saying is if both bots (defensive, and midfield) are tunnel robots and they get stuck in the defensive zone by 469 they have no choice but to stay there. I mean this could be an extremely rare circumstance, but could happen. The only thing they could do is play defense.
The GDC has ruled against penalty protections for penalties that involve more than 1 robot. In Q&A there was a question about if a robot is E-Stopped in the defensive zone for being incapacitated does that permit another robot to join them because of the E-Stopping protection from penalties. The GDC ruled no. This exact situation occurred in the finals match 1 at FLR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuvC3p5DRN8), the blue alliance got a red card for it. The ability of the remaining team to clear either the bump or the tunnel is questionable, but there was NO effort shown to clear it, which I would accept as a red card
It's basically the same thing with the forced penalty rule. ONE robot was forced to double up in the defensive zone, not both of them. Therefore, not both robots are penalty-protected, and we have the call. The initial penalty could be waived, but if you don't at least show an attempt to clear the bump then you get a red card
pfreivald
18-03-2010, 07:15
This exact situation occurred in the finals match 1 at FLR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuvC3p5DRN8), the blue alliance got a red card for it.
Huh. I had no idea that was what the red card was for...
Chris is me
18-03-2010, 09:01
The GDC has ruled against penalty protections for penalties that involve more than 1 robot. In Q&A there was a question about if a robot is E-Stopped in the defensive zone for being incapacitated does that permit another robot to join them because of the E-Stopping protection from penalties. The GDC ruled no. This exact situation occurred in the finals match 1 at FLR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuvC3p5DRN8), the blue alliance got a red card for it. The ability of the remaining team to clear either the bump or the tunnel is questionable, but there was NO effort shown to clear it, which I would accept as a red card
That's a distinctly different situation, where a second robot consciously decides to enter the zone after the first is e-stopped. If 469 pushes someone through a tunnel, that's completely different.
pfreivald
18-03-2010, 10:44
That's a distinctly different situation, where a second robot consciously decides to enter the zone after the first is e-stopped. If 469 pushes someone through a tunnel, that's completely different.
What it comes down to is the discretion of the referee, whose ruling will be final. Expecting 100% consistency from the referees at different events (or even different fields at the same event) is probably a mistake.
Radical Pi
18-03-2010, 17:02
That's a distinctly different situation, where a second robot consciously decides to enter the zone after the first is e-stopped. If 469 pushes someone through a tunnel, that's completely different.
Actually, it was the 2nd that enters the zone then e-stops. but that's not my point. The rules say that you need to show EFFORT to leave, or get a red card. If you can't go under the tunnel because 469 is blocking it, make an attempt to clear the bump. If you flip trying to get over the bump, your partner in the zone better try to show that effort because not even an E-Stop protects you from that. 2 robots flipped in the far zone after attempts to leave most likely would not incur any penalties since the original one was forced by 469
Chris is me
18-03-2010, 17:47
Actually, it was the 2nd that enters the zone then e-stops. but that's not my point. The rules say that you need to show EFFORT to leave, or get a red card. If you can't go under the tunnel because 469 is blocking it, make an attempt to clear the bump. If you flip trying to get over the bump, your partner in the zone better try to show that effort because not even an E-Stop protects you from that. 2 robots flipped in the far zone after attempts to leave most likely would not incur any penalties since the original one was forced by 469
I'm pretty sure when the first robot flipped, it sure demonstrated an attempt to leave.
You're saying this like it's a likely nightmare scenario teams have to deal with. To be honest, there is almost no way this will happen, and on the off chance your tunnel bot just so happens to get forced through the tunnel by 469, I think simply trying to push against 469 would be okay.
GaryVoshol
18-03-2010, 17:50
469 (or any other robot) parking in the tunnel does NOT cause another team to get a penalty. If a team can't get over the bump, they must have gone through the tunnel in the first place. When they did that, and if an alliance partner was already in the other team's near zone, that's when the penalty happened. It didn't happen when their escape route was blocked.
If one robot went over the bump and another through the tunnel at the same time, one of them had better turn around pronto. If the tunnel got blocked just after the transit, then the one who went over the bump has go get back.
Radical Pi
18-03-2010, 18:31
469 (or any other robot) parking in the tunnel does NOT cause another team to get a penalty. If a team can't get over the bump, they must have gone through the tunnel in the first place. When they did that, and if an alliance partner was already in the other team's near zone, that's when the penalty happened. It didn't happen when their escape route was blocked.
If one robot went over the bump and another through the tunnel at the same time, one of them had better turn around pronto. If the tunnel got blocked just after the transit, then the one who went over the bump has go get back.
I believe the situation in question is that you were defending against 469 and they pushed you under the tunnel into the opponent area. The OP of this situation wanted to use this as a way to get 2 bots into the defense area legally
greivousfan226
22-03-2010, 10:03
The only sure way to beat a 217,469, and some other team alliance is to have a beastly defensive bot against 217and the other 3rd pick to block 217 and get balls to the home zone. The midfielder would basically pester 469 until the last 20 and your near zone is left open to your 3rd alliance partner to score.
Chris is me
22-03-2010, 11:08
The only sure way to beat a 217,469, and some other team alliance is *words*
If they win autonomous, you're done. 5 ball cycle isn't stoppable.
My plan for beating them involves not letting possibly the two best teams in the world pair up with each other.
pfreivald
22-03-2010, 14:34
If someone seeds higher than them (assuming they are on the same field), it is relatively easy to break up that alliance, isn't it?
Chris is me
22-03-2010, 14:50
I kinda hope someone gets "carried" just once now. Just to see if 217 + some other awesome teams can beat 469 + good but not great teams... Doubt it'll happen.
I kinda hope someone gets "carried" just once now. Just to see if 217 + some other awesome teams can beat 469 + good but not great teams... Doubt it'll happen.
Hopefully, we'll take a run at this position at Troy (although we will certianly not be "carried")... it would be nice to seperate 217 and 469 for elims. Who knows crazier things have happened... :) .
Bjenks548
22-03-2010, 20:15
Theres a fairly simple way to beat 469 and still be semi-productive in the game. 548 has the idea on how to do this, but were wondering how much effort its worth to be able to stop 1 team that we will see at states, and possibly no where else. By the way, I'm not gunna give away the secret incase we do end up using it...
BJenks, try to get up to Troy Saturday and get a good look at some teams that 548 hasn't seen this year, as well as that 46something team. I'll be reffing as well as Mr. Bennett and Robert VanHam.
And it is my bet that there will be enough 469 and 51 copycats at States that we will have most alliances consisting of a ball handler (67, 33, 27, 910, 217 and the list is long), a diverter (469, 51 and the copy cats) and a diverter defense (548 and others that commit to that action). I can't imagine that any alliance that has to play against 469 will not choose a diverter defender as their first choice. The alternative is to let 469 lock in place and the game is over.
I also do not think that is the only time we will see a 469. I think Nationals will be the same as our States, maybe even more diverter heavy. I just can't imagine a picking alliance not wanting a diverter defender.
greivousfan226
23-03-2010, 07:27
Well that's easier said than done. You basically have to be 1st overall seed to stop a 469/217 or similar matchup.
Bjenks548
23-03-2010, 17:37
Well that's easier said than done. You basically have to be 1st overall seed to stop a 469/217 or similar matchup.
I'm not sugesting breaking up a pair like 469/217 or even 67/51. Theres just small modifications we can make to our bot to successfully stop them.
Theres a fairly simple way to beat 469 and still be semi-productive in the game. 548 has the idea on how to do this, but were wondering how much effort its worth to be able to stop 1 team that we will see at states, and possibly no where else. By the way, I'm not gunna give away the secret incase we do end up using it...
I'm not sugesting breaking up a pair like 469/217 or even 67/51. Theres just small modifications we can make to our bot to successfully stop them.
Now you got me curious... and trust me depending on how small it is, it'll be worth it.
Now you got me curious... and trust me depending on how small it is, it'll be worth it.
BJC, I wish all of my team would read your post. BJenks548 is right, we have the plan, the bot design and the capability to do it but we have a lot of team members that do not seem to understand how desirable it would be. We have not competed against 469 this year and none of our team has seen them so they don't understand, I believe. I truly think that every alliance that does not get 469 would pick a team that could keep 469 from completing their cycle.
And I also agree with BJenks, we know how to do it, we can do it, and I believe we will be playing well up into the elimination matches at both States and Nationals if we do it. Time will tell!
Hawiian Cadder
24-03-2010, 01:35
if a team with a kicker that recharged fast enough could sit in front of them, then they could just kick the balls out as soon as they were deflected out, our kicker has a recharge of 1.2 secs at min, 1.8 at max, so i don't think that would be too difficult to do.
link still doesn't work...
469's strategy is brilliant, because in order to stop them you have to not only prevent them from getting to the tower first.
I wonder if you get to the tower first will they still expand, hence a possibility of a penalty?
Chief Samwize
24-03-2010, 01:49
Ball control will be key in the later matches. It will come down to who has the balls in which part of the field. An infinite loop is much less effective if there is nothing in the loop.
-Sam
Clinton Bolinger
24-03-2010, 01:49
I wonder if you get to the tower first will they still expand, hence a possibility of a penalty?
From what I can tell 469 does not expand until Teleoperated, therefore if they are not in position they will not expand and will not get a penalty.
-Clinton-
Michael Corsetto
24-03-2010, 03:55
if a team with a kicker that recharged fast enough could sit in front of them, then they could just kick the balls out as soon as they were deflected out, our kicker has a recharge of 1.2 secs at min, 1.8 at max, so i don't think that would be too difficult to do.
Check 469's design, they have two chutes that point at either goal, and they can choose which chute the ball rolls down on the fly. Is your kicker foot 6 feet wide? Doubt it. ;)
Daniel_LaFleur
24-03-2010, 08:22
if a team with a kicker that recharged fast enough could sit in front of them, then they could just kick the balls out as soon as they were deflected out, our kicker has a recharge of 1.2 secs at min, 1.8 at max, so i don't think that would be too difficult to do.
a. BALL Interaction Volume – Solely for the purposes of interacting with a BALL, MECHANISMS that are below the BUMPER ZONE may extend up to the BUMPER PERIMETER, for a period not exceeding two seconds. After returning inside the FRAMER PERIMETER, such MECHANISMS are not permitted to re-extend beyond the FRAME PERIMETER for at least two seconds.
A kicker that cycles that fast will probably incur <G30> penalties.
Check 469's design, they have two chutes that point at either goal, and they can choose which chute the ball rolls down on the fly. Is your kicker foot 6 feet wide? Doubt it. ;)
<G45> Active BALL control - ROBOTS may not control BALL direction with active MECHANISMS above the BUMPER ZONE. Violation: PENALTY.
469 cannot change direction of the ball, while the ball is on their chute or they will incur <G45> penalties as their chute will be considered active.
Bjenks548
24-03-2010, 17:22
Now you got me curious... and trust me depending on how small it is, it'll be worth it.
Well, 548 won't do exactly what ExTexan and I would like to do... but we will still have a way to beat them.
Ty Tremblay
24-03-2010, 17:48
469 cannot change direction of the ball, while the ball is on their chute or they will incur <G45> penalties as their chute will be considered active.
But 469 can decide where the balls go before they are in their chute. Which they do with quite some skill.
A kicker that cycles that fast will probably incur <G30> penalties.
Only if it extends past the frame perimeter. As long as it stays within the frame perimeter you can cycle it as fast as you like. There are quite a few robots out there that keep the kicker within the frame perimeter and can clear the 3 balls out of the far zone on autonomous in 3 or 4 seconds as they drive forward. I don't remember any numbers off hand but you can see it in several clips on The Blue Alliance.
Well, 548 won't do exactly what ExTexan and I would like to do... but we will still have a way to beat them.
Hopefully you'll have better luck against 469 with your secret strategy than you did against 51 ........
Bjenks548
24-03-2010, 18:35
Hopefully you'll have better luck against 469 with your secret strategy than you did against 51 ........
Haha, we thought they were gunna have the same problems they had at kettering, aka a tilted hang. Our strategy with them was to hit them after they attached to the tower to make them hang sideways, and therefor a dead robot for the rest of the match. Turns out they fixed that problem. Also the way that 51 and 469 do the loop is very different and in my opinion 469 is much easier to block and much more worth it. 51 has a great robot even without doing the the loop. 469 has never had to play a match, there drivers are inexperieced (I'm guessing), they have a slow, one zone robot. 51 is actually my faviorite bot so far this season! I hope I am not underestimating 496, I am amazed at what they did this year and still think they have a great bot... but they are beatable.
Huskie65
24-03-2010, 22:42
51 has a great robot even without doing the the loop. 469 has never had to play a match, there drivers are inexperieced (I'm guessing), they have a slow, one zone robot. 51 is actually my faviorite bot so far this season! I hope I am not underestimating 469.
Thanks thats awsome to hear. We're very proud of our robot this year especially with the merger. As far as 469 goes I'm sure their drivers are more than up to the task of playing the game and we know they have a good kicker. There only weakness in that situation is they can't traverse the bump.
Chris Hibner
24-03-2010, 23:07
There only weakness in that situation is they can't traverse the bump.
At least, that's what we think. I know for a fact that 469 has some tricks up their sleeve that they haven't shown yet. But then again, don't we all.
Clinton Bolinger
24-03-2010, 23:19
At least, that's what we think. I know for a fact that 469 has some tricks up their sleeve that they haven't shown yet. But then again, don't we all.
Aye.
-Clinton-
At least, that's what we think. I know for a fact that 469 has some tricks up their sleeve that they haven't shown yet. But then again, don't we all.
That is what makes this competion FUN!
Hopefully you'll have better luck against 469 with your secret strategy than you did against 51 ........
Ouch....and oh so true. I still feel bad for 1025 and 3115, our Alliance partners and the teams that chose us. We had a role to play and didn't do it. We will never know if we had kept 51 from the tower like we were supposed to whether we could have defeated the HOT WINGS EXPRESS who beat all the other alliances but it still smarts!
But the sequel to "The Outsiders" was "That was Then and This is Now". We didn't have this strategy then but we do now. I personally saw our practice bot designed for it tonight and I am quite pleased!
BTW, rumor has it that 469 will show up without their diverting arrangement tomorrow and just play ball. Which they do quite well I understand. As do The Wings. I love the times before the games because everyone can trash talk....afterwards, to the victors go the spoils!
Ken Patton
24-03-2010, 23:47
a tilted hang
That was actually do to a mechanical problem, not something caused by "external forces." One of our cables was unhooked from the winch. We fixed it before the following match. We're pretty sure THAT won't happen again....
Daniel Ernst in his Detroit pictures has a great series of shots of you guys smacking us while we were lifting.
maverickfan138
28-03-2010, 11:08
All a robot needs to do is block the tunnel. If they can't get in the tunnel, they can't start their system. This allows robots to clear balls out of their zone and other robots to get in their face. Quite a few teams did it at Troy Athens this past weekend, although it didn't work in every match. With the Michigan State Championship next weekend, I believe that the better robots will be able to do this quite well.
Bjenks548
28-03-2010, 12:19
All a robot needs to do is block the tunnel. If they can't get in the tunnel, they can't start their system. This allows robots to clear balls out of their zone and other robots to get in their face. Quite a few teams did it at Troy Athens this past weekend, although it didn't work in every match. With the Michigan State Championship next weekend, I believe that the better robots will be able to do this quite well.
In my opinion, blocking the tunnel helped, but didn't work well enough. 469 has proved that they have a more then capable kickerto score from the mid zone. A 2 v 3 match doesn't often work. The most successfull strategy will be a robot that can block the tunnel at will. This robot could block the tunnel in auto, then come out of it to not let them shoot, then go back in the tunnel if need be. The bees had a different strategy in the first match of the finals that seemed to work well, kick all the balls out of the far zone, this leaves a 2 v 1 seniro in the rest of the field with very few balls in the cycle.
In my opinion, blocking the tunnel helped, but didn't work well enough. 469 has proved that they have a more then capable kickerto score from the mid zone. A 2 v 3 match doesn't often work. The most successfull strategy will be a robot that can block the tunnel at will. This robot could block the tunnel in auto, then come out of it to not let them shoot, then go back in the tunnel if need be. The bees had a different strategy in the first match of the finals that seemed to work well, kick all the balls out of the far zone, this leaves a 2 v 1 seniro in the rest of the field with very few balls in the cycle.
This funnily enough, was not on purpose. However, I wish we had done it the other two matches because it worked much better. I guess we inadvertently found the best way to play against 469, lol:p .
Bjenks548
28-03-2010, 12:46
This funnily enough, was not on purpose. However, I wish we had done it the other two matches because it worked much better. I guess we inadvertently found the best way to play against 469, lol:p .
haha yea I figured that was an accident because you then blocked the tunnel the other 2 times, congrates on making it to the finals and finding a way to at least tie 217 and 469!
Chris is me
28-03-2010, 13:15
469 didn't win with a blocked tunnel because they're such a fantastic midfield bot; they won because they were playing against a crippled 33 with 217 on their side.
That said, 469 is not useless by any means if they're blocked from the tunnel, they can play mid. But it looks like once they're in the tunnel, they can't leave.
469 didn't win with a blocked tunnel because they're such a fantastic midfield bot; they won because they were playing against a crippled 33 with 217 on their side.
That said, 469 is not useless by any means if they're blocked from the tunnel, they can play mid. But it looks like once they're in the tunnel, they can't leave.
Yes they can, they did it many times during quals in order to get some balls in their cycle when there were none.
This seems to be common misconception:confused:, however I assure you they will only ever be at the tower if they want to be.
Chris is me
28-03-2010, 13:36
Yes they can, they did it many times during quals in order to get some balls in their cycle when there were none.
This seems to be common misconception:confused:, however I assure you they will only ever be at the tower if they want to be.
Ah, I was just confused when they stayed in the tunnel for Finals 1. Nevermind then!
This funnily enough, was not on purpose. However, I wish we had done it the other two matches because it worked much better. I guess we inadvertently found the best way to play against 469, lol:p .
Anyone have video of this finals match?
Bjenks548
28-03-2010, 19:50
they are still a desent midfield bot and that makes it a 2v3 game if someone blocks the tunnel and doesnt leave
pfreivald
28-03-2010, 20:06
This funnily enough, was not on purpose. However, I wish we had done it the other two matches because it worked much better. I guess we inadvertently found the best way to play against 469, lol:p .
Weird... It's almost as if I had suggested this early last week as the strategy necessary to beat them...
Oh, wait, I did. :D
Chris is me
28-03-2010, 20:07
Weird... It's almost as if I had suggested this early last week as the strategy necessary to beat them...
Oh, wait, I did. :D
The strategy isn't quite that simple. Keeping 217 away from the front zone was also critical.
pfreivald
28-03-2010, 20:11
The strategy isn't quite that simple. Keeping 217 away from the front zone was also critical.
I'm certain that's true. My comment was regarding 469 in particular. If you can keep balls out of the cycle in the first place, you can play a regular game and win.
Thunderchickens are force unto themselves...
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