FRC Qual Rounds on Thursday @ Championship

[Justin Montois]

I may have just missed it on here because I can't believe i'm just finding out about this now. I did a quick search but found nothing.

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/Events/2010/2010_CMP_Agenda.pdf

I think this is an awesome change. More matches at Championship is something we all have wanted for a long time.

I know our advance team is only a mentor and 2 students, the rest of the team will be there by 1pm. I hope this doesn't present a problem for others.

[kjohnson]

With 80+ teams per division, past rankings were based off of ~7 matches. By only practicing Thursday morning and beginning qualification matches after lunch, teams should get at least one additional match. Each division has their own practice field so a loss of practice time should not be an issue.

I like the change. It not only allows teams more matches, but should make the division rankings more accurate.

[BrendanB]

Part of me is liking having more qualification matches!:)


Maybe you could charge for people to drive your robot until they show up! $10 a match with a $20 fee for penalties. Just kidding.;)

[jspatz1]

More matches = Good. Would much rather have another match than a another practice.

[Chris is me]

I like how the schedule still says the Closing Ceremonies will only take 2 hours.

[rees2001]

Does anyone know if this effects judging times? Will judges start looking at robots and teams on Thursday? Will CA judging take place on Thursday?

[Jared Russell]

Great, great change. Definitely adds value to the Championship's admission fee.

[Chris]

This is going to make for an interesting inspection process.....

But it will be Great to get more match time at Championship!

I wonder if in future years we'll see inspection started during the Wednesday night uncrate period?

[thefro526]

This is awesome! Having more matches at the Championship will be great! With that time frame how many matches would that add per team? 2-ish? So that should bring the total to around 9 per team?

I guess the only downside to this is that it really cuts down on the amount of modification and De-Bug time available Thursday for teams.

[Mike Betts]

...I guess the only downside to this is that it really cuts down on the amount of modification and De-Bug time available Thursday for teams.

Absolutely not!

In the same manner as you are able to work on your robots on Friday and Saturday, you can work on your robots on Thursday afternoon. Just ask for a re-inspection of the modified/added mechanisms before you head to the field.

Regards,

Mike

[Jon Jack]

I can see good and bad things about Thursday qualification matches...

The good: More qualification matches. The 3 1/2 hours should yield 1-2 more matches per team.

The bad: Less time to make changes to your robot prior to inspection and less time to inspect.

I like the idea of more qualification matches. Having only 7 qualification matches will not produce an accurate ranking of ~80 teams.

However, my fear is that teams that are not prepared will not pass inspection. As a result the Thursday qualification matches will have no shows and will bring down the quality of the event.

I'm also afraid that FIRST is underestimating the amount of time it will take to inspect 380-something teams. Last year it took us over an hour to go through inspection. Granted, changes can be made to the inspection process to speed things up... Let just hope FIRST makes those changes.

[thefro526]

Absolutely not!

In the same manner as you are able to work on your robots on Friday and Saturday, you can work on your robots on Thursday afternoon. Just ask for a re-inspection of the modified/added mechanisms before you head to the field.

Regards,

Mike

Mike,

While this can be done, and I'm sure will be done during the course of the Championship, it really limits teams to what they can do. My team for instance is planning on re-routing our drive chains at the next event, in addition to doing some modifications to our kicker. We're planning on using most of Thursday for this. We probably wouldn't do this at the Championship, for fear of missing the first few qualification matches, and maybe even missing getting inspected on time and not being rewarded seeding points even if we send a team representative.

-Dustin

[David Brinza]

Mike,

While this can be done, and I'm sure will be done during the course of the Championship, it really limits teams to what they can do. My team for instance is planning on re-routing our drive chains at the next event, in addition to doing some modifications to our kicker. We're planning on using most of Thursday for this. We probably wouldn't do this at the Championship, for fear of missing the first few qualification matches, and maybe even missing getting inspected on time and not being rewarded seeding points even if we send a team representative.

-DustinUnless your changes are going to affect weight, envelope, number of motors or other items on the inspection checklist, your robot can be inspected before these changes are made. If your changes do affect those items, you can ask for re-inspection.

We don't want teams to miss any matches. Only if the robot is not complying with the rules, would it not pass inspection. In some cases, the non-conforming items can be disabled, allowing the robot to pass inspection and get on the field. For example, if there's a problem with pneumatics, the breaker for the compressor can be pulled for the match.

In order to get ~340 robots through inspection on Thurs morning, FIRST will need plenty of inspectors. Hopefully, enough people will step up to make this happen. This is a great opportunity to interact with students on teams you only get to see once a year! Whether or not Team 980 goes to Atlanta, I plan to be there as an inspector. :)

[Mike Betts]

All,

Don't shoot the messenger...

From Bill's Blog 9/29/2009:

Traditional FRC Regional Events may only have a half-day of practice rounds on Thursday before qualification rounds begin.Why do you think it took so long to publish agendas for most of the regionals?

Deal with it...

Mike

[The Lucas]

In order to get ~340 robots through inspection on Thurs morning, FIRST will need plenty of inspectors. Hopefully, enough people will step up to make this happen. This is a great opportunity to interact with students on teams you only get to see once a year! Whether or not Team 980 goes to Atlanta, I plan to be there as an inspector. :)

Perhaps FIRST should allow teams the option to get weighted/sized and WPA Key on Wed night. That wouldn't take more than 3 team representatives and a few inspectors per division. It could really accelerate the inspection Thursday morning for those teams that are ready and lessen the rush on the inspectors.

[Gary Dillard]

Wow. If you do the math on inspecting (I've inspected at the Championship the last 2 years):

Last year there were 348 teams (~86 per division) and we had 4-5 inspectors per division. We started a little late since some things weren't set up and got almost everyone through by close of the pits at 8:00; maybe 2-3 teams per division left on Friday to push through before qualifying started. It takes about 20 - 25 minutes to do an inspection at the Championship, since (hopefully) most of the major stuff has already been caught during regional inspections. That more or less agrees with 348 inspections x .5 inspector-hours / 16 inspectors = ~ 11 hours. Now we're cutting the time in half, so to get the same number of teams through we'll need twice as many inspectors. Plus probably 2 sizing booths and weighing stations per division since that is the biggest bottle neck (need additional inspectors to run those full time).

I guess I better get my Venti Latte with an extra shot or two on Thursday Morning.

[Alan Anderson]

However, my fear is that teams that are not prepared will not pass inspection.

Teams will already have passed inspection at a regional competition. They should all be prepared to pass at Championship pretty much right out of the crate, no? It's not like anyone will have made major changes to their robot while it was in transit to Atlanta.

I'm also afraid that FIRST is underestimating the amount of time it will take to inspect 380-something teams. Last year it took us over an hour to go through inspection. Granted, changes can be made to the inspection process to speed things up... Let just hope FIRST makes those changes.

This is a real concern. Even if it only takes ten minutes per team, that's still on the order of fifteen hours of inspection per division to cram into a morning somehow.

[Kevin Sevcik]

This probably explains that email I got asking for qualified individuals heading to championships to volunteer as inspectors....

I'm questioning whether it matters that teams have already passed inspections at regionals. That cuts down drastically on the teams you send back to the pits for fixes, sure, but you still have to run down your checklist for each team. Unless you're just skimming the list and only looking for obvious changes or difficulties, that's still gonna chew up your time.

Also, I think rudimentary time analyses are going to fail here. Assuming .5 hours per team and all that only works if teams are perfectly distributed throughout the day. And we all know that's not true. It's even less likely to be true with this compressed schedule. Unless you start forcibly queuing up teams for inspections, you're not likely to get 100% efficiency from your inspectors. I'm thinking you're going to need more like 2.5x or 3x the inspectors to get things done if you're not running an abbreviated inspection process.

[Gary Dillard]

Teams will already have passed inspection at a regional competition. They should all be prepared to pass at Championship pretty much right out of the crate, no?

You'd think so, but I have yet to see that happen. The teams that pass inspection clean the first time through are the exception, not the rule. Like I said, historically it takes 20-25 minutes per team on average at the Championship.

[BrendanB]

The biggest issues with getting past inspection at Championships are teams making significant changes to their design and holding off to inspect until minor issues are ironed out: ball handling/kicker modifications, code, autonomous, stuff like that. Teams who uncrate a working robot with little to no changes to be made have no excuse to wait for inspection. Also, this is Championships, FIRST is probably expecting teams to be ready for competition with many teams competing at two events this year. But are robots ever perfect, no. I like having more qualification matches, but I think we can deal with having less time for inspections and changes if there are more inspectors and if teams are proactive about getting done/inspected.

What I wish they would allow teams to do is give us more time on Wednesday night to uncrate and set up our pits/unpack so everyone is set to go bright and early Thursday morning. I believe they allow teams to bring stuff in Wednesday, but no pit assembly can be done which in my mind wastes time Thursday morning when we have to organize the pit before working on our robot. It might not seem like a ton of time, but it is work that could have been done the night before.

Just my thoughts, but am still excited for more matches on Thursday!

[Josh Drake]

What I wish they would allow teams to do is give us more time on Wednesday night to uncrate and set up our pits/unpack so everyone is set to go bright and early Thursday morning. I believe they allow teams to bring stuff in Wednesday, but no pit assembly can be done which in my mind wastes time Thursday morning when we have to organize the pit before working on our robot. It might not seem like a ton of time, but it is work that could have been done the night before.

Just my thoughts, but am still excited for more matches on Thursday!

I agree. The pits could be set up Wednesday, and teams could hit the ground running Thursday morning. A lot of teams get the hotel room in Atlanta on Wednesday night, and are only allowed to uncrate. Teams would get more out of their stay if they were allowed to do more.

[Kims Robot]

Anyone ask in the Q&A yet??

Something like "In light of the Championship schedule change, could teams be allowed to do weight/size & WPA inspection as well as set up their pits [but not do robot work] on Wednesday evening to help streamline the process?"

Honestly my guess is it will come down to something weird like they dont have insurance on Wednesday or something, but it is very likely worth asking.

[rees2001]

Anyone ask in the Q&A yet??

Something like "In light of the Championship schedule change, could teams be allowed to do weight/size & WPA inspection as well as set up their pits [but not do robot work] on Wednesday evening to help streamline the process?"

Honestly my guess is it will come down to something weird like they dont have insurance on Wednesday or something, but it is very likely worth asking.

I can see the WPA thing and pit setup but they probably won't want to start inspection. That opens a door too many teams have abused in the past.

What would happen if we ALL asked?

Go thinking Kim.


** edit - question asked **

[Stephen Kowski]

It's not like anyone will have made major changes to their robot while it was in transit to Atlanta.

Couldn't disagree more, the 65 lbs withholding allowance is for EACH event. Why wouldn't you want to try to improve a mechanism or add a new feature? I guess the reason now is you may miss your first or second match if you attempt it.

[Dancin103]

I like how the schedule still says the Closing Ceremonies will only take 2 hours.

hahaha Yeah I saw that and was like ok right. It has never taken less than that.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

OK,
In the past, inspections at the Champs were just like everywhere else. Although we strive to make inspections consistent, teams are still showing up at the Champs with severe issues. I estimate about 25% of the teams need moderate to severe rework to become compliant. Even with all the training, new inspectors do not catch everything at the regional level. We find undersized wiring, poorly constructed and mounted bumpers, illegal motors, illegal pneumatics, sharp edges and metal that can contact the floor. Add to that list ball intrusion, unsafe kickers, and bumper height for this year's rules and game changes. I hope that the my Inspection thread is helping correct some of those problems but (if you can believe it) many teams do not look at Chief Delphi as a source of information. Nor do these same teams read the Q&A or Team Updates.

The four division LRI's (myself included) are just starting to discuss possible workarounds for the new schedule. Our volunteer coordinator has thus far managed to book 40 inspectors, including the LRI's. Will that be enough? I don't know yet. As to starting inspections on Wednesday, many inspectors are still in transit at 6PM, myself included. Whether it is practical will be investigated in the coming days. Inspections this year are running more like 20-30 minutes each excluding WPA and Jaguar CAN firmware checks. Make our lives easier if you are using CAN, be prepared to demonstrate that each CAN connected device has the right firmware upgrades at every event! This requires a serial interface be connected to the black Jag and that you show each CAN address and firmware to the inspector. If you haven't installed the latest Jag firmware, it is a must do before you compete.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Ten inspectors at a 50 team event do not a guarantee make.

[BrendanB]

Ten inspectors at a 50 team event do not a guarantee make.

I believe that our regional only had 8 but still, at least you have them!

[Nawaid Ladak]

Perhaps FIRST should allow teams the option to get weighted/sized and WPA Key on Wed night. That wouldn't take more than 3 team representatives and a few inspectors per division. It could really accelerate the inspection Thursday morning for those teams that are ready and lessen the rush on the inspectors.

I think this would solve A LOT of problems. No withholding allowance allowed Wednesday night. set up a 3hr window for inspections. If you do not pass inspection on your first try (Wednesday night). you cannot be inspected until the next morning.

[Chris Fultz]

I really like the idea of inspections on Wednesday night, even if just weight and size. Then maybe inspectors could travel to the teams for the other stuff?

I like the idea of starting early and having more matches, but worry about the teams standing in line for inspection while their alliance is taking the field...

[Jeff Pahl]

I really like the idea of inspections on Wednesday night, even if just weight and size.

That would be fine if FIRST would have published this schedule well in advance of everyone making travel arrangements, including the Lead Inspectors, some of whom are at the mercy of team travel schedules. Plus it was Thursday morning last year before they managed to even find us all the inspection station equipment. And don't get me started on the inspection forms.....

And with two weeks of regionals already complete, and teams having already withheld 65 lbs of robot that they shipped to ATL, expecting to have all day Thursday to put it back together, it places those teams at a disadvantage compared to the teams that can plan for this.

[Rob]

It seems that the inspection team was caught just as off guard by this as the competing teams. I would not count on being able to do inspections on Wednesday night. In the past we have been kicked out of the pits immediately after uncrating so that the crates can be easily removed from the aisles.

I now consider my team to be lucky that we did not withhold anything and we are not making any major changes, only routine maintenence and replacement of identical parts.

I would suggest that any team that CAN get inspected right away do so as a courtesey to the teams who have some work to do before they can be inspected. Whatever division 78 ends up in, I hope your size & weight inspectors are ready first thing on Thursday because we will be knocking on the sizing box door!

Another idea might be to share inspection resources between divisions. If one division has a run on inspections while another seems to be at under 100% utulization then sharing can improve the efficiency of the process.

Hopefully this goes smoothly and does not stress out the inspectors and team members due to a compressed schedule!

Rob

[sircedric4]

That would be fine if FIRST would have published this schedule well in advance of everyone making travel arrangements, including the Lead Inspectors, some of whom are at the mercy of team travel schedules. Plus it was Thursday morning last year before they managed to even find us all the inspection station equipment. And don't get me started on the inspection forms.....

And with two weeks of regionals already complete, and teams having already withheld 65 lbs of robot that they shipped to ATL, expecting to have all day Thursday to put it back together, it places those teams at a disadvantage compared to the teams that can plan for this.

And this is our biggest problem. We are a poor team that can only afford to go to our local Regional and can't attend two Regionals. We were barely able to get the money for Nationals, and that was with a success under our belt. The Bayou this year was the first week, so when we won our Regional and got the honor to go to Atlanta, we held back our weight allotment and crated the robot.

We thought we had plenty of time Thursday to get the small changes we wanted done and get the robot back together on Thursday, but now that qualifiers are going in the afternoon it has changed how much we are going to change our robot. It is now a "run what you brung" Nationals, which would have been nice to know before we pulled off some of our systems.

We were lucky in that we are mostly happy with our robot's performance, all we have to do is get the electronics back on it, and tweak a few things, but not everyone is happy after their first regional. If you only attend one regional and were counting on Thursday to make your robot better you are out of luck at the Nationals this year.

I can't imagine how much worse the inspections are going to be when everyone in the World Trade Center lines up at 10:30 to get inspected. With the time it takes to organize and setup your pits and get the basic withholding allotment stuff back on your robot, that puts everyone trying to get inspected at the exact same time. I hope they have a nice queing area setup and the inspection station isn't like its been in the past because I can see the lines interfering with traffic and possibly other people's pits.

Some Wednesday night work and pit setup, still limited to 3 people, I think is almost a necessity unless they want this to be a disaster. Especially when you figure on Snowmageddon, and if the sad state of unfinished robots that I saw at our Regional is any indication of other regionals.

[Gary Dillard]

From the FRC Manual, Section 3 "At The Events". (emphasis mine)

3.6.2.1 Qualification Match Schedules: Before the pit opens on the morning of the second day, the Pit Admin Supervisor will place a copy of the Qualification Schedule on each team's pit table.

3.9.5 Inspection To ensure all robots are safely constructed and fall within the FIRST parameters, there is an official robot inspection at each event. Certified inspectors will be on site all day on the first day of the event, until Pit closing time, to inspect machines.

Not sure how they can change the rules this late, given that teams have already made decisions based on this schedule.

[Dave Flowerday]

3.6.2.1 Qualification Match Schedules: Before the pit opens on the morning of the second day, the Pit Admin Supervisor will place a copy of the Qualification Schedule on each team's pit table.
I suppose if you want to nit-pick, you could say that if they distribute the qual schedule at 11am on Thursday, that still fulfills the requirement of "before the pit opens on the morning of the second day".... :rolleyes:

[Chris]

Perhaps I’m naive.

But being on a team that the last few years that has utilized every second of time to improve our robot (in some cases significantly) I’m also mildly heartbroken at the loss of Thursday.

Yet I understand the need for more matches.

FIRST is basically killing all of Thursday. You're going to uncrate, rush to hopefully make your practice match, and then rush to get inspected, and then hopefully make your first qualification match. Now if you’re willing to get re-inspected Friday morning perhaps you can have from 5:30-8 to do improvements and tweaking (If nothing broke during your matches).

Now I don’t' understand why FIRST doesn't leave Thursday alone, and run 8 to 8 on Friday like they do on Thursday. If you stole a half hour from lunch, you would get the same increase in match time as you are with the 4 hours in the middle of the day Thursday.

If that’s not practical for some reason, I don't understand why they wouldn't make the four hour match block from 4:00 to 8:00 on Thursday, which would double the time teams had for inspection, improvement, and practice.

This announcement came late, teams have travel booked, inspectors have travel booked ect. But this is a great change! I just think perhaps there are other ways to get the same benefit, without the loss of quality practice, opportunities for robot improvement, and quality detailed inspections.

$.02

[Gary Dillard]

I'm also concerned with what we gain from the practice matches as far as keeping the qual match schedule on time. With all of the field issues we have had so far (it looks like there were still nearly as many problems week 2 as week 1), getting each robot on the field to check out coms prior to qualification matches certainly saves that delay time on Friday. If you have to add a couple of minutes per match, pretty soon you've used up whatever you gained on Thursday.

[Gary Dillard]

I suppose if you want to nit-pick, you could say that if they distribute the qual schedule at 11am on Thursday, that still fulfills the requirement of "before the pit opens on the morning of the second day".... :rolleyes:

Man, you are GOOD. I better inspect your robot extra carefully ;)

[Chris is me]

I kind of think they shouldn't even offer practice matches at Champs if they have quals on Thursday so people can get through inspection.

While the change sucks for teams that do the right thing and iterate, teams that make no changes end up being really, really bored on Thursday, and it's better than only 7 quals.

[BrendanB]

I kind of think they shouldn't even offer practice matches at Champs if they have quals on Thursday so people can get through inspection.

While the change sucks for teams that do the right thing and iterate, teams that make no changes end up being really, really bored on Thursday, and it's better than only 7 quals.

No, then they get inspected and get out into the fast lane on the field and get in as many matches as they can on Thursday.

[Chris is me]

No, then they get inspected and get out into the fast lane on the field and get in as many matches as they can on Thursday.

My team did that and it still got pretty boring after awhile. 1714 / 365 / 368 must have played at LEAST 5 or 6 matches together. I'd rather never practice and run 10 quals than practice and run 7.

[GaryVoshol]

Add another rule: No practice matches until you are fully inspected.

Michigan districts have very limited practice run time, and we used this rule. That way teams wouldn't use time practicing that could be better used to get them through inspection.

[Nawaid Ladak]

I'm also concerned with what we gain from the practice matches as far as keeping the qual match schedule on time. With all of the field issues we have had so far (it looks like there were still nearly as many problems week 2 as week 1), getting each robot on the field to check out coms prior to qualification matches certainly saves that delay time on Friday. If you have to add a couple of minutes per match, pretty soon you've used up whatever you gained on Thursday.

It's all about the backend turnover time. I've seen turnaround times as short as 5 minutes per match, to 3 hours....

If they can maintain a six to seven minute turnover time per match, I think we should be good.

Add another rule: No practice matches until you are fully inspected.

Michigan districts have very limited practice run time, and we used this rule. That way teams wouldn't use time practicing that could be better used to get them through inspection.

I think this is the rule for the FastLane (or at least it was at the Florida Regional)

[thefro526]

My team did that and it still got pretty boring after awhile. 1714 / 365 / 368 must have played at LEAST 5 or 6 matches together. I'd rather never practice and run 10 quals than practice and run 7.

Chris,

I can see where you're coming from here, but I disagree.

I'd much rather have at least one practice match Thursday than none.

Reason: If my robot isn't going to communicate correctly with the field, I'd like to find this out in a match that doesn't matter.

-Dustin.

[Gary Dillard]

If my robot isn't going to communicate correctly with the field, I'd like to find this out in a match that doesn't matter.

Ah come on, what are the chances of that ever happening? :rolleyes:

[rees2001]

Looks Like I got the answer to the question about the schedule???

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=15146


Question

2010FRC0340
Championship Schedule question

In light of the Championship schedule change, could teams be have WPA inspection as well as set up their pits [but not do robot work] on Wednesday evening to help streamline the process?

Answer?

Game Design Committee
Re: Championship Schedule question

There will be some modifications to the Championship agenda in an effort to accommodate the earlier Qualification matches. Please stay tuned to Bill's Blog for updates as they become public.

[Justin Montois]

Looks like we will have WPA inspection on Wednesday, with the possibility of robot inspection per Bill's Blog

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/

I'm really happy with the way FIRST is responding to the community this year. Team Update #16 was largely in response to issues from the teams and now this is a suggestion that has also been taken(granted this may have already been in the works). I feel like we have a voice in FIRST.

[XaulZan11]

I'm pretty sure we don't know the answer to this but, when will the qualification schedules be released? Is there any reason they couldn't release them early Thursday morning, or even Wednesday night? The past few years we have used Thursday night to start stratigizing our first 2 or 3 qualifaction matches. I fear we now won't have any time to do this...

[Justin Montois]

I'm pretty sure we don't know the answer to this but, when will the qualification schedules be released? Is there any reason they couldn't release them early Thursday morning, or even Wednesday night? The past few years we have used Thursday night to start stratigizing our first 2 or 3 qualifaction matches. I fear we now won't have any time to do this...

Your right, the past few years we have gotten our Qualification matches Thursday night for the regionals. It would be nice if we had both the practice match list and the Qual List in our packet when we check in at Championship. Hopefully by at least Wednesday night.