View Full Version : AndyMark Plaction Wheels
http://www.andymark.biz/am-0514.html
My team has started using these wheels this year and for the most part we get good performance out of them.
However we've noticed that AndyMark joins the treads with staples. During both of our competitions we've found the treads to start coming off and during one of our matches at SVR, the tread actually did come off.
To solve it we just riveted the ends of the tread and it seems to work okay.
Any other teams using these wheels have the same issue?
Tom Line
22-03-2010, 23:53
Pretty much all the teams I've talked to have the same issue.
They use one of two solutions:
1. More, bigger staples to keep the ends together
2. Rivet the tread to the wheel.
Chris is me
22-03-2010, 23:55
This happened to us too. I kinda expected it to happen. Riveting on the tread was one of those things we kept putting on the list of things to do, but never did.
Two rivets per wheel did the trick. Everyone should do this always.
Edoc'sil
22-03-2010, 23:57
if it comes off at a competition a drill and a zip tie does the trick as well too.
Jamie Kalb
22-03-2010, 23:59
This happened to us, too. Same issue, same solution.
Chris is me
23-03-2010, 00:00
if it comes off at a competition a drill and a zip tie does the trick as well too.
If you're already drilling the hole, why not rivet it? If you need a hand pop rivet gun, you can borrow my team's gun.
eugenebrooks
23-03-2010, 00:37
We had the treads come off during light testing just prior to ship.
We riveted, but the treads came loose again.
We solved the problem with a method identical to how
we used to make good wheels from KOP wheels. We cut
the flanges off and then sanded the rims using a belt sander
right on the robot. We usually use a lathe for this, but we
did not want to take 8 wheels off the robot at this point.
We made our own treads using incline belting from McMaster,
by carefully sanding the first layer of nylon off the backing,
just exposing the black rubber layer. We then cut the treads
and glued them on the wheels with mid-cure crazy glue, using
no rivets or screws, after cleaning the tread and the rim with
MEK (or acetone if you don't have MEK handy).
No tread came loose at SVR. When we rip a tread off of one
of these wheels, it leaves the black rubber from the tread on
the wheel rim all the way around. Screws or rivets are not
needed at all when using this gluing procedure. In the rare
event that a tread does start to peel we use some glue on
it and it rarely starts to peel again.
Eugene
mahumnut
23-03-2010, 01:43
our team trimmed the tread itself because it was overlapping the raised edges of the wheel, we then used rivets. After the DC regional, we ordered their aluminum version because the plastic ones kept on breaking when our robot went over the hump. Because our robot was 6 wheeled, the hump wasn't the smoothest trip crossing the zones.
SteveGarward
23-03-2010, 02:33
We hit this issue in the hour before shipping the robot. (We also sheared the bolts off one of the drive wheels and noticed the other drive wheels bolts were bent, but that's another story...).
We tried holding it on with tape just so we could practise prior to shipping, but it kept slipping out.
We had some spare wheels, so we changed them out at GSR prior to competition. These lasted a while (I think we were being careful) but by the end of Friday we had lot a tread again. We got it back together for Saturday, but lost the tread again in the next match.
Prior to crating it ready for Atlanta, we managed to get a couple of wheels ready, using contact glue on the tread AND rivets. Hopefully this will hold. Otherwise I'll either cry or just go home. :)
Ok, maybe not.. it's a long flight..
Chris Fultz
23-03-2010, 06:54
When you add screws or rivets, be sure to make them slightly off of the centerline of the wheel.
These wheels are molded plastic, and the seam is right in the center. By moving slightly off to each side, you are staying in stronger material.
Advice straight from the "manufacturer", so to speak.
Jared Russell
23-03-2010, 07:22
Same problem; same solution.
thefro526
23-03-2010, 07:28
Our Plaction wheels still have the standard staples from AM in them, and we haven't had any problems with them... yet.
*Scrambles to pack Rivet Gun and Rivets for next event*
Obviously not many people on this thread read the AndyMark page on the Plaction wheels here:
http://andymark.biz/plactionwheel.html
Quote from the page:
Roughtop or Wedgetop conveyor belt material are used as replaceable treads on these wheels. For best use, install rivets into each end of the tread to insure the tread stays put under heavy usage.
First thing we did upon taking ours out of the box was to rivet the ends of the tread. Although we managed to break all of the bolts holding the sprocket onto one of the wheels in the semi-finals at the Bayou Regional, the wheel survived and we never had any problems with the tread.
Bayou Regional Champions with 1462 and 3362 - See you in Atlanta!
MarkoRamius1086
23-03-2010, 08:58
Those are amazing wheels! The traction and quality is superb, but ugh... We had the same problem with one of our wheels in the second to last match of the finals! We were going over the bump... and all of a sudden it stalled! You can see it on the youtube video... when we started over the bump the back tread came right off. I dont know if there is a channel that it popped out of... I didnt get a good look at it before we shipped it off. All I know is the moment our driver backed off of the bump, we had a tread lying on the field.
Seeing this thread I am certain we shall replace the stripped wheel with one from our prototype and then pop rivet all of them before the matches at NC. Has anyone pop-riveted the plaction wheels and has advice that could prove useful or critical? I saw the great post on not riveting on the centerline, thank you for that, but does anything else come up?
Jared Russell
23-03-2010, 09:06
Just make sure that the rivets you use are long enough to clear all of the way through the plastic.
We used rivet washers under the head of the rivet and also against the plastic rim on the backside of the rivet to spread the load and keep the rivet head from pulling through the tread or the expanded side from pulling through the plastic rim. Two rivets at each end of the tread, NOT on the centerline.
Alex Cormier
23-03-2010, 10:24
We used rivet washers under the head of the rivet and also against the plastic rim on the backside of the rivet to spread the load and keep the rivet head from pulling through the tread or the expanded side from pulling through the plastic rim. Two rivets at each end of the tread, NOT on the centerline.
I highly recommend at least 3 rivets. One on each end of the belting and add one on the opposite side of the wheel.
MarkoRamius1086
23-03-2010, 12:40
Our coach is thinking about riveting it in many different places. Two on each end of the tread, and then a zig-zag pattern to the other end. I am unfamiliar with the practice of riveting... can I assume we need to drill holes the same size of the rivet... and gun it in?
Alex Cormier
23-03-2010, 12:46
Our coach is thinking about riveting it in many different places. Two on each end of the tread, and then a zig-zag pattern to the other end. I am unfamiliar with the practice of riveting... can I assume we need to drill holes the same size of the rivet... and gun it in?
Correct, (and I hope 1501 will also back this up :p) when you rivet, you need to drill the hole out the same size as the rivet. Not too small or too large, if it's too small you will not be able to get the rivet in. If the hole is too large, the rivet will not be 100% efficient as the rivet could wobble in the hole. Now, with adding the rivets in a zig-zag pattern, that might be a little over kill. But it never hurts to add security for such an important component.
s_forbes
23-03-2010, 12:48
Since the wheels are molded, I wonder how difficult it would be to have ridges formed on the inside of the lip? (or if it would even solve the problem... adding rivets seems like an easy enough solution) Also out of curiosity, what size wheels did people who didn't rivet experience slip with?
359 had a different kind of failure with one of their 8" plaction wheels, as pictured below.
That happened to team 171 during one of the final matches at the WI regional. I was on the pit crew so as soon as I saw the rubber flapping off the wheel I grabbed the drill, 1/8" bit, and the rivets, did all four wheels just to be safe in about 2 minutes!
MarkoRamius1086
23-03-2010, 13:24
Holy Torque! What on earth did you do to that wheel?
And thank you a bunch Mr. Cormier!
waialua359
23-03-2010, 16:15
Since the wheels are molded, I wonder how difficult it would be to have ridges formed on the inside of the lip? (or if it would even solve the problem... adding rivets seems like an easy enough solution) Also out of curiosity, what size wheels did people who didn't rivet experience slip with?
359 had a different kind of failure with one of their 8" plaction wheels, as pictured below.
In SD, we never broke a single one.
In AZ, as shown in pic above, we broke 5 plaction wheels similar to the one shown.
We just ordered 8 more for our next 2 tournaments.:)
Alex Cormier
23-03-2010, 16:17
In SD, we never broke a single one.
In AZ, as shown in pic above, we broke 5 plaction wheels similar to the one shown.
We just ordered 8 more for our next 2 tournaments.:)
It could be what's underneath the field carpet that disrupts the wheels. I know at FLR, the staff at RIT puts down a layer of masonite for everything except for the field. It is the normal rubber-type field house floor.
Tom Line
23-03-2010, 16:19
As a warning to ALL the teams using plaction wheels: absolutely DO not trust sprockets on those wheels to anything less than 6 through-bolts. Do NOT thread those fasteners into the plastic - use the locknuts. Finally, and perhaps most important, do NOT use the fasteners you get from Home Depot to hold those sprockets on. Those are low grade (usually 2) garbage and will stretch under the strain.
We learned about the bolts this year. Last year we used 3 home depot grade in each wheel with no issue. This year, we were short on fasteners on the practice bot so we tried 3 per and quickly sheared them. We moved up the 6 per wheel, but those kept loosening up. On our comp bot, the 6 bolts were JUST starting to break at the end of West Michigan - we had to call a time out to replace some and tension all the rest. (We have 8 wheel drive traction and have spent some time pushing :D ).
It's worth the money to pick up some grade 8's and do it right the first time.
waialua359
23-03-2010, 16:24
Probably right about the flooring, however, similar to both tournaments we did, we hardly traveled over the bump.
Biggest discrepancy we saw was the soft layer that they put over the bump and partially onto the floor. It was so thick in AZ that our front two wheels were a 1/2" off the floor in the starting position. This also caused problems for teams with ball magnets (uneven flooring as they cross it with while trying to herd/possess a ball).
IMO, a perfect alliance never goes over the bump even once! **unless to hang**
gorrilla
23-03-2010, 17:01
We have never had any problems with the 6' versions breaking (yet).
Just treads coming off all the time;
At the rukus before ship they all (6 treads!) came off.
At the Floirda Regional the center-wheel-treads came off 3 times, two of our Sf' matches were played mising the tread on our right-center wheel (luckily we had 9 other wheels in contact with the carpet)
Each time they would come off, I would re-riviet them back on; 2 in each end, then one in between each spoke. I finally got tired of this after doing each of our 6 plaction wheels twice. So I got some 7-minute epoxy and glued them on....no more treads came off, except for the right center during the Sf'......
Leeebowitz
23-03-2010, 19:31
Our team had similar issues. Unfortunately, we didn't get to test the wheels until the Midwest regional, so when the treads came off, we got penalties. :(
Our temporary solution for the day was to ziptie through the holes we drilled in the tread. Seeing that this wouldn't hold for very long, we looked around for a better way to keep the tread on. We hit upon the bolts that held in our 5" traction wheels which only were used when we went over the bump.
The next day, we came in with several round-head bolts and nylocks to fit them; we never had another problem with those treads.
MarkoRamius1086
23-03-2010, 20:00
You just drilled holes and bolted them on? What a simple way to look at it! I wounder though how long those nylocks would last on those wheels... you know the nylock wears down after awhile... and a wheel isnt exactly the best place to put a part like that if you want it to last.
Alex Cormier
23-03-2010, 20:11
You just drilled holes and bolted them on? What a simple way to look at it! I wounder though how long those nylocks would last on those wheels... you know the nylock wears down after awhile... and a wheel isnt exactly the best place to put a part like that if you want it to last.
Back when I was on 1126 SparX in 2005, we used custom lexan wheels. What we did to put the tread on was double sided tape, taped a hole through the tread into the wheel, and used 10-24 pan head screws.
Wayne Doenges
27-03-2010, 07:55
Correct, (and I hope 1501 will also back this up ) when you rivet, you need to drill the hole out the same size as the rivet. Not too small or too large, if it's too small you will not be able to get the rivet in. If the hole is too large, the rivet will not be 100% efficient as the rivet could wobble in the hole. Now, with adding the rivets in a zig-zag pattern, that might be a little over kill. But it never hurts to add security for such an important component.
A 1/8" rivet will NOT fit into a 1/8" hole. You need to drill the hole using a #30 drill bit.
Not sure what kind of drill you are using but I have been putting 1/8 rivets into 1/8 holes and 3/16 rivets into 3/16 holes for as long as pop rivets have been available.
Bruce
Emily3204
27-03-2010, 10:49
our team tried to use the plaction wheels, and we also had the same problem! we ended up changing wheels though because our turning maneuverability was poor
RRLedford
27-03-2010, 19:53
We are running a chain driven 4x 8" -wheeled tank setup with dual-CIMed AM supershifter gearboxes on each side. As we entered the semi-finals of the Midwest Regional, we were losing staples and had to super glue the tread ends of one wheel. Then later in the semifinal, after not paying enough attention as to why only one chain was getting progressively looser after each match, we ripped a sprocket off that wheel, shearing bolts and shattering the sprocket, plus breaking the chain at the master link. Even though we had all six screws, they were low grade screws and several were slightly short and did not fully engage the nylon inside the Nylock nuts.
Because we have the dual sprockets on out gearboxes, with one chain to each wheel, our two rear sprockets are spaced away from the side of the wheel to line up properly with the dual sprocket of the gearbox. These spacers were not done right, and allowed too much flexing of the screws which finally worked themselves loose. This was the cause of the chain loosening, and by not zeroing in on the cause the problem went to self destruct stage.
We have now replaced all our KOP sprockets with new 22-tooth ones that do not have the six radial slots in them. We have replaced all our chains with 100% riveted chain (no master link & 50% higher working tension)). We have 1/2" diameter precision nylon spacers between sprocket and wheels. Screw heads are allen socketed (not slotted) so they can be seriously tightened. We now use Locktite blue on the the Nylock threads too.
As for tread to wheel attachment, after roughing up the plastic surface with abrasive paper, we are gluing the Roughtop treads onto the plastic wheels with GOOP Shoe Goo urethane adhesive. We use large hose clamps to compress tread material against the wheel overnight. This produces an almost inseparable bond.
We also decided to have spare upgraded wheels with sprockets mounted ready to go in case of failure. Handling the torque output of this drive setup demands that all components be made with top notch materials.
-Dick Ledford
Has anyone else had problems with cracking of this wheel? We lost an entire segment of the rim, spoke to spoke, on one wheel yesterday and had to splint cracks in another. This appears to be happening when going over bump. Cracks seem to form on outside of facing side of wheel first and then propagate through wheel. Since the robot never comes down off of the bump completely square to the floor, the outside of one rim takes more of the impact. This is what we think is causing wheel to crack. At least that is what appears to be happening.
Our 6" plaction wheels started to exhibit cracking in the spokes almost immediately after we started going over bumps at competition weight.
Mistakenly, I ignored the crack in our competition robot wheel, as it was only on one half of one spoke. In semifinal match 1 at the Seattle regional, the wheel shattered into three pieces, splitting at each of the three bolts we were using to attach the drive sprocket.
We were able to swap in a wheel after using our time out and run semifinal 2, though because it was our front wheel, we couldn't make it over the bumps. We ran chain again before the finals and were back in full working order.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, we'd now recommend that all teams use all 6 bolt holes on these wheels. :)
M. Mellott
28-03-2010, 16:50
It seems like everyone is using the Andymark wheels with the standard 1" wide tread, but did anyone besides teams 3193 and 48 use PVC spacers to widen the 6"-diameter wheels to 2"? We had success with them using black nitrile treads from McMaster in our 8-wheel drive, but we too had issues with the tread coming off when we tried using staples like the original AM treads. Two 1/8" rivets (1/2" long) drilled into the PVC spacer worked great.
However, we found another issue: when mounting sprockets, you have to watch how hard you tighten the bolts on the hubs, as there is no support between the hubs because of the spacer. We found a couple cracked spokes, and we found one wheel had all six spokes one one side broken through after our last quarter-final match in Cleveland. If...I mean when we use these again, we'll definitely look to add spacers at the center of the wheel so that the hubs are not squeezed and stress isn't transferred to the spokes.
i'm surprised that the engineers at andymark aren't fixing this sort of an issue for the current production. it seems like something a company should do if many customers are having the same issue
Vikesrock
02-04-2010, 01:10
i'm surprised that the engineers at andymark aren't fixing this sort of an issue for the current production. it seems like something a company should do if many customers are having the same issue
These wheels have not been tested in an environment as abusive as this year's game. And it's not just these wheels breaking. teams are breaking wheels of many different types as well as axles, frames, and many other robot parts.
Andy and Mark are busy people, I find it remarkable that they manage to do as much as they do during competition season. I expect they will take a look at the Plaction wheel in the offseason and decide if it should be improved or if the issues are caused by abuse that the wheel just isn't, and won't be, designed for.
Akash Rastogi
02-04-2010, 01:39
i'm surprised that the engineers at andymark aren't fixing this sort of an issue for the current production. it seems like something a company should do if many customers are having the same issue
AM does customer surveys after every season. These wheels lasted in all our applications without breaking.
waialua359
02-04-2010, 06:36
Despite damages to some of our plaction wheels this season, I'll take it over anything else out there.
Its a replica of what we normally machined in the past using aluminum.
Due to time constraints this season, we elected to go with these. The simple fact that you can use either wedgetop or roughtop is awesome. It is a much cheaper solution and saves us time from making our own.
No one with mecanum, omnis and other types of wheels/tread has outpushed yet in our homezone. If anything, its other teams complaining about us in the act of trying to score goals.
Thank........you.............AndyMark.;)
Chris is me
02-04-2010, 12:41
My team had a sprocket failure in our drive at CT, and the bolts sheared before the Plactions sustained any damage whatsoever. I was seriously impressed. The Plactions are versatile, durable, cheap wheels that are better than any custom solution my team could have done. Unless we can make something lighter I don't see myself ever using anything else.
Arefin Bari
02-04-2010, 14:49
i'm surprised that the engineers at andymark aren't fixing this sort of an issue for the current production. it seems like something a company should do if many customers are having the same issue
Go to this page (http://www.andymark.biz/tractionandsolidwheels.html) and you will see several different kind of wheels that AndyMark has offered to the customers. Depending on the applications, the customers should choose from the collection.
We have a 8wd (all plaction wheels). We riveted the treads on the wheels and haven't had any of them come off. We were in 12 matches in Cleveland and the robot went over the bump at least twice every match (when coming down the impact was very high). I haven't seen a crack yet, but I forget to check again before we packed up the robot for Atlanta, so that will be the first thing on my to do list. Overall, I like the wheels; it hasn't given us any problem so far. Thank you AndyMark.
Team 1261 uses four 6-inch plaction wheels on the robot. We have yet to encounter any problems of the tread slipping on the wheel. We have not riveted to the tread to the wheel either. The only thing that has happened to us is the screws holding the sprockets onto the wheels became bent, and that was our fault for not tightening them enough. They have survived two regionals and we have yet to see any sort of physical damage on the wheel.
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