View Full Version : Curie 2010!
Graham Donaldson
08-04-2010, 16:22
Woot! I get to start the party for Curie 2010. It's definitely shaping up (since it's technically not final yet) to be a pretty intense division. Who's going to be joining NJ and VA winners Team 1676 there?
7 days until competition starts!
Here's Ann Arbor Champs, 8th Alliance Captain at MSC, and Michigan's only suspension checking in.
Greg Needel
08-04-2010, 17:30
2775 is happy to be playing with so many friends. Looks like it will be quite competitive and a blast!
if it's final...
830 is scared (1114 and 469 together, but ready to do battle.
see you there!
XaulZan11
08-04-2010, 17:43
1114+469=doom. Simple.
Indeed. Thinking of ways to beat 469 is tough enough and then you add in the likely event that they are with 1114! I may have nightmares for the next week!
I can't wait for Curie '10.
1114+469=doom. Simple.
Well someone has to be the third team.
Instead of dreading the potential alliance think of ways to impress them so they want you to be part of it!
waialua359
08-04-2010, 17:51
1114 or 469 would have to be the #1 seed for them to pair up.
If it doesnt happen, I'd pay money to see 1114 vs. 469 in eliminations.
XaulZan11
08-04-2010, 17:55
Does having 111 in Curie mean we get Dan Green? I hope so.
HashemReza
08-04-2010, 17:55
Hah, this should be a good one. I'm excited!
Alright everyone, let's show em' how it's done. I'd also like to impose a no-469-1114 rule, just to be fair.
Hah, this should be a good one. I'm excited!
Alright everyone, let's show em' how it's done. I'd also like to impose a no-469-1114 rule, just to be fair.
This can be easily imposed. Just seed higher than both of them.
HashemReza
08-04-2010, 18:35
This can be easily imposed. Just seed higher than both of them.
Fair argument, but easier said than done ;)
We just had our first ever #1 seed this year, so who knows?
Chris is me
08-04-2010, 18:54
Fair argument, but easier said than done ;)
I seem to recall a certain 1732 seeding higher than 469 AND 1114 just 3 short years ago on this very field... Hey, they're back again too! ;)
I seem to recall a certain 1732 seeding higher than 469 AND 1114 just 3 short years ago on this very field... Hey, they're back again too! ;)
Yes, they picked 67 and 48, then eliminated 1114 and 469 in a controversial fashion. But this is a different game...
thefro526
08-04-2010, 19:13
I seem to recall a certain 1732 seeding higher than 469 AND 1114 just 3 short years ago on this very field... Hey, they're back again too! ;)
Hmm.
Speaking of Curie History, I seem to remember a certain unknown New Jersey team in 2009 seeding in the 6th position and Pulling off one (Almost two) of the craziest upsets in a long time.
Will they do it again?
I hope so.
Chris is me
08-04-2010, 19:15
Hmm.
Speaking of Curie History, I seem to remember a certain unknown New Jersey team in 2009 seeding in the 6th position and Pulling off one (Almost two) of the craziest upsets in a long time.
Will they do it again?
I hope so.
816 + 1732 = crazy upsetlicious
Buzz Robotics FRC 175 will be attending the Atlanta Championship in the Curie Division! :D
Here's Ann Arbor Champs, 8th Alliance Captain at MSC, and Michigan's only suspension checking in.
Doubling it. Plus Quality Award at Ann Arbor. Lookin' to rock n' roll.
Hmm.
Speaking of Curie History, I seem to remember a certain unknown New Jersey team in 2009 seeding in the 6th position and Pulling off one (Almost two) of the craziest upsets in a long time.
Will they do it again?
I hope so.
How about another unknown NJ team?
thefro526
08-04-2010, 19:45
How about another unknown NJ team?
Psh.
Unknown? You guys have a bigger target on your backs than some of the "Powerhouses" this year. :p
Psh.
Unknown? You guys have a bigger target on your backs than some of the "Powerhouses" this year. :p
I don't know about that, but it would be nice if you are right and we live up to it.
Or us unknowns from Canada :P
XaulZan11
08-04-2010, 20:08
Yes, they picked 67 and 48, then eliminated 1114 and 469 in a controversial fashion. But this is a different game...
Yep, sadly we won't have 67 on our side if we go against 1114 and 469. And 2010 469>>>> 2007 469 (which is really scary because they were darn good in 2007).
Jack Jones
08-04-2010, 20:10
Team 2612 is eager to do battle once again either with or against team 469. After falling to them in the finals at Cass Tech, the quarters in Troy, and again in the finals at the Michigan Championship, we claim the eminent distinction of knowing first hand how not to defeat them. :)
Billfred
08-04-2010, 20:15
1398 will be in full effect on Curie, in many ways its home division. (Three of the team's four past trips to Atlanta have led here, the exception being 2008 on Archimedes.)
We'll be bringing one third of the Palmetto Regional winning alliance, a cheering section bent on giving TJ^2 a run for its money, and a lot of 2815's mentors since the two collaborated closely this year.
This oughta be fun.
Team 2612 is eager to do battle once again either with or against team 469. After falling to them in the finals at Cass Tech, the quarters in Troy, and again in the finals at the Michigan Championship, we claim the eminent distinction of knowing first hand how not to defeat them. :)
Would you rather be with or against (with your choice of partners)?
BrendanB
08-04-2010, 20:25
Note: I'm on the Archimedes field, not Curie!
I'm predicting two things:
1. 1114 and 469 do not wind up on the same alliance
OR
2. They wind up on the same alliance but do not win the division.
Sounds out there, but don't hand them the trophy there are a lot of others teams here than can bring good competition! :D
Jack Jones
08-04-2010, 20:30
Would you rather be with or against (with your choice of partners)?
We've been with them for years in so many ways that we win when they do, so it's all good either way.
EDIT: On second thought - It sure would be a shame to waste all that time we spent lulling them into a false sense of security.
1t5h1e1o
08-04-2010, 20:32
1511 is excited & ready to go! :D
It's great to be with our fellow Rochesterians 191, 340, and 1126, as well as all of those teams we know and love from around the country!
As my last official FIRST Event as a student, I can't wait to cap off my high school FIRST career with another great experience.
Here's Ann Arbor Champs, 8th Alliance Captain at MSC, and Michigan's only suspension checking in.
No matter what my assignment is, or where I may be stationed, I think I'll be trying to be at Curie for your matches to check out the nation's first double!
Were all excited here in KC to be back in Curie! This divison looks stacked! Should be exccellent competetion.
sircedric4
08-04-2010, 21:52
We're happy just to get a chance to play again after our first week regional. Man it is a long slog from week 1 to Championships. We hope with this deep field we'll finally get to see if our ball looper works as well as it did in practice. We are quite happy with our kicker and possessor since it helped us win the Bayou but we want to see our true concept in action.
Good luck to everyone in Curie. And seeing as we're unknown we'll be happy to finally get to play Saturday afternoon. I've mentored 5 years and been to Atlanta twice already and this my third, I just want to dance Saturday afternoon. :-)
Fireworks 234
08-04-2010, 22:17
Let's get some spirit in here :)
MADAME...
No matter what my assignment is, or where I may be stationed, I think I'll be trying to be at Curie for your matches to check out the nation's first double!
Curie is where your going to see it!
I'm predicting two things:
1. 1114 and 469 do not wind up on the same alliance
OR
2. They wind up on the same alliance but do not win the division.
I'll believe it. I think that although those two teams are favored, something along those lines will happen. 469/1114 either won't be ranked 1st, and someone else will end up picking one of them, or some other seed might just beat them. Although, their stats don't lie. 1114 is undefeated this year, and both 469 and 1114 have won every event they've attented. If these two do not end up being on the same alliance, I'll be surprised, and if they do, I look forward to some TERRIFIC matches.
However, I wish the best to all teams attending Curie 2010, and lets show them this is the field to be at!
Team 1676 plans on giving 469 and 1114 a run for their money whether we are with them or not!!
Jen.Scharl
08-04-2010, 22:54
Heres 573 checking in: Winners of the Ann Arbor District (with our friends 2337), 4th Alliance Capitan at MSC, and official 469 autonomous stopper. :D
I'm so pumped. Curie is going to be such a great division this year! There are plenty of really good teams! Its going to be interesting!
Clinton Bolinger
08-04-2010, 23:00
No matter what my assignment is, or where I may be stationed, I think I'll be trying to be at Curie for your matches to check out the nation's first double!
Did you bet Double or Nothing? Or rather Double Suspension or Nothing?
-Clinton-
Did you bet Double or Nothing? Or rather Double Suspension or Nothing?
If I knew you would have 2 hangers with you in some of your matches, the bet would be on! But I'm going to wait until the match schedules come out....if there's a chance I'm going with YOU!
Although, their stats don't lie. 1114 is undefeated this year, and both 469 and 1114 have won every event they've attented. If these two do not end up being on the same alliance, I'll be surprised
Here's a gutsy strategy move: During the qualification rounds teams agree to go 5 on 1 against 1114 and 469 so that neither is the number 1 seed. If either is the number 1 seed, common sense indicates that they'll pick each other and then you have an uphill battle from there.
During the quals... Say 1114 (or 469) is red, then the two red robots could park in front of their own goal while the 3 blue robots play normally. Yes, the red robots would be sacrificing themselves for the match, but they would help keep 469 and 1114 away from the number 1 seed. Lose the battle, win the war.
Do I like the idea? No. Could it help break up a hugely powerful alliance? Yes. Will it work? Yet to be determined...
BrendanB
09-04-2010, 00:28
Here's a gutsy strategy move: During the qualification rounds teams agree to go 5 on 1 against 1114 and 469 so that neither is the number 1 seed. If either is the number 1 seed, common sense indicates that they'll pick each other and then you have an uphill battle from there.
During the quals... Say 1114 (or 469) is red, then the two red robots could park in front of their own goal while the 3 blue robots play normally. Yes, the red robots would be sacrificing themselves for the match, but they would help keep 469 and 1114 away from the number 1 seed. Lose the battle, win the war.
Do I like the idea? No. Could it help break up a hugely powerful alliance? Yes. Will it work? Yet to be determined...
I think Curie can beat them or force 3 elimination matches with good "New England" defense ;) and strong offense! Oh, strategy, strategy, strategy! Can't go wrong figuring out powerful match strategies. I don't think turning alliance members against the number 1 and 2 teams is a good idea.
And if 469 and 1114 get together, 30+ points is what you are capable of! ;)
delsaner
09-04-2010, 00:29
I'm predicting two things:
1. 1114 and 469 do not wind up on the same alliance
OR
2. They wind up on the same alliance but do not win the division.
And that's where we come in. ;)
In all seriousness, I am a bit intimidated at the fact of 469 and 1114 being on our field, but 1676 is going to do the best they can to succeed on Curie; watch out, there's a new powerhouse on the block this year. I cannot wait to see you all there on the field, good luck to all teams!
BrendanB
09-04-2010, 00:32
And that's where we come in. ;)
In all seriousness, I am a bit intimidated at the fact of 469 and 1114 being on our field, but 1676 is going to do the best they can to succeed on Curie; watch out, there's a new powerhouse on the block this year. I cannot wait to see you all there on the field, good luck to all teams!
You guys will do well and good luck! :]
1986titans
09-04-2010, 00:40
It looks like we'll be in this division.
Looks like a good group we have here. I've worked with many of these teams at my regionals this year, and look forward to meeting new ones on the field.
I'll be around the field, those of you on a drive team should be able to find me.
Wetzel
I don't think turning alliance members against the number 1 and 2 teams is a good idea.
I agree. It's not in the spirit of the game.
I'm simply trying to think outside the box on how to prevent a 1114 and 469 alliance and the best way to do that is to prevent the two from being the number 1 seed. I'd love to see the match up of 1114 vs 469!
BrendanB
09-04-2010, 00:47
I agree. It's not in the spirit of the game.
I'm simply trying to think outside the box on how to prevent a 1114 and 469 alliance and the best way to do that is to prevent the two from being the number 1 seed. I'd love to see the match up of 1114 vs 469!
Out play them! :D I'm sure that Curie will hold a ton of surprises.
And to teams 1114 and 469: You guys have some amazing robots and I hope you guys do well on Curie this year! :)
What an awesome division to be a part of, with so many excellent teams and two of this year's stand-outs in 469 & 1114.
With 10 matches in the qualification schedule, there's an ~40% chance we'll get to play as part of an alliance with one of them - and a 100% chance if we somehow end up as #1 seed :p
... a cheering section bent on giving TJ^2 a run for its money, ...
Them's fighting words Mr. Fred :D
If I knew you would have 2 hangers with you in some of your matches, the bet would be on! But I'm going to wait until the match schedules come out....if there's a chance I'm going with YOU!
Who needs a match schedule? When you feel the dome tilt towards Curie you better head over there.:ahh:
yarden.saa
09-04-2010, 08:31
some one know how much robots can hang in curie and their statistics?
Team 3339 will be in her rookie year in curie!
I agree. It's not in the spirit of the game.
I'm simply trying to think outside the box on how to prevent a 1114 and 469 alliance and the best way to do that is to prevent the two from being the number 1 seed. I'd love to see the match up of 1114 vs 469!
The other thing I had thought of in the "strategies to ensure team X doesnt seed #1" is to deliberately take a red card when aligned with them. Definitely not GP, definitely not something I would do, but it would work.
Josh Fox
09-04-2010, 09:19
The other thing I had thought of in the "strategies to ensure team X doesnt seed #1" is to deliberately take a red card when aligned with them. Definitely not GP, definitely not something I would do, but it would work.
A red card during qualifications doesn't affect your partners in that match. You just don't receive any qualifying points from it regardless of outcome while your partners receive whatever points are earned in that particular match.
I was fairly certain taking a red card affects the whole alliance.
EDIT: I stand corrected, <T11> and <T12>
Joe Ross
09-04-2010, 09:37
I was fairly certain taking a red card affects the whole alliance.
Only in the eliminations, not in the qualifications. See 9.3.6, <T11>, and <T12>. I'm glad that FIRST doesn't allow you to intentionally harm your alliance partner in this way.
thefro526
09-04-2010, 09:40
The other thing I had thought of in the "strategies to ensure team X doesnt seed #1" is to deliberately take a red card when aligned with them. Definitely not GP, definitely not something I would do, but it would work.
This wouldn't work in Qualifications, you'd only hurt yourself.
Though, if you wanted to you could incur a substantial amount of penalties to make sure your alliances loses. Once again, it's not GP, but it'll work.
Another interesting strategy might be to ALWAYS play 6v0 against them. Minimize their coopertition points.
We did this in Waterloo, and set what may well be a record 6v0 match at 24-0.
Andrew Schreiber
09-04-2010, 10:03
Or you could play the game instead of gaming the game.
469 and 1114 ARE beatable. Rather than figuring out how to use the system against them why not just out play them?
Plus, if I see any of these "strategies" used I will just root for 1114/469 harder.
Or you could play the game instead of gaming the game.
469 and 1114 ARE beatable. Rather than figuring out how to use the system against them why not just out play them?
Plus, if I see any of these "strategies" used I will just root for 1114/469 harder.
I'm going to respectfully submit here that playing 6v0 IS playing the game.
Andrew Schreiber
09-04-2010, 10:32
I'm going to respectfully submit here that playing 6v0 IS playing the game.
And I will respectfully disagree.
Chris is me
09-04-2010, 10:38
I'm going to respectfully submit here that playing 6v0 IS playing the game.
I don't think he meant that point in particular.
6v0 doesn't make you jump ahead of them in QP, it boosts you both at the same time. If you're trying to form a well constructed lower seed alliance, then go for it.
Dave Scheck
09-04-2010, 10:38
Not to start a whole 6v0 thread again, but I still don't see how going 6v0 makes any dominant team beatable.
Going 6v0 gives all teams the same points, but those points are still pretty darn high. A 25-0 match is better that a 7-5 match in terms of seeding points. Yes, you don't give them the coopertition points, but if they're getting that many seeding points consistently, who cares about coopertition points.
If a dominant team were to play every match as 6v0 and get 25 points each match, 10 matches later they have 250 seeding points. If you play in one of those matches, you get your 25 points, but the rest of the matches average, say, 15 points, you're sitting at 160. In the end, the 25 points that you (and everyone else that played 6v0 against them) gave them has widened the gap between them and the rest of the field. If I were that dominant team, I would welcome any 6v0 match that was going to yield me an easy 25 points.
If you're playing 6v0 to help yourself, this is probably perfectly fine. You get your points and move up, and the dominant team stays ahead. However, if you're trying to dethrone the dominant team, you're probably better off trying to keep the score low to lessen the gap.
Who needs a match schedule? When you feel the dome tilt towards Curie you better head over there.
You're right! and who knows, Clinton will probably have that bot elevated, diverting balls into the goal, suspending 1, and then reaching out, grabbing the Freeze's roll bars and suspending it also! :)
How does sitting in front of your own goals show 469/1114, or any other team that you would be a good partner in finals? This is champs. The last time for alot of drive teams or the first time. 6v0 is asking alot. What i would like to see is every alliance on every field in the first match play a forced 6v0.:confused: It would just show the powers that be how silly this seeding system is.
Chris is me
09-04-2010, 10:54
A word...
If I were you, I would worry less about how to dethrone the best and more about how to win the division. If the MSC matches are any indication, it is possible to beat an alliance with two effective scorers and 469. Which would you rather be, the robot that brings 469 to #2 seed, that no one remembers? Or the alliance that performed the most shocking eliminations upset in FRC history?
I know a lot of random FIRST facts, but I have no idea who or how 1114 seeded less than 1st on Curie on 2007. I do know that 1732 / 67 / 48 performed a controversial upset. If you're trying to make history, take em down in eliminations.
thefro526
09-04-2010, 11:01
Or the alliance that performed the most shocking eliminations upset in FRC history?
I want to be this when I grow up.
A note on 6v0 that I think teams should realize: Even though you do go up in ranking, is sends the other teams up in ranking too. So while everyone will play 6v0 against 469 and 1114, the same people will complain when they are #1 and #2.
Andrew Schreiber
09-04-2010, 12:05
A note on 6v0 that I think teams should realize: Even though you do go up in ranking, is sends the other teams up in ranking too. So while everyone will play 6v0 against 469 and 1114, the same people will complain when they are #1 and #2.
No, they will complain that they got to go to 3 events each or that their "mentors build their robots"... I'll go back to mumbling in my corner now. Good luck 469/1114, you guys have a target the size of Texas on your backs.
Along the lines of beating 469...
217 beat them once in qualifying at Cass Tech, tied them at Troy (and then got demolished), beat them in MSC qualifying, and then went 1-2-1 in the finals at MSC. That's a 3-2-2 record so far this year. And, if you take a look at one of the matches, their strategy to beat 469 isn't really that complex either. I see at least one team doing this to 469 during Curie and having identical success. If there's an upset with 469 losing in the elims, there'll be a team doing that.
My $0.02.
I'm calling it now. Curie devision is going to win the Championship.
1114, 469, and a third team, some random picks: 832, 2775.
And oh wow! I didn't even notice 111 is in there also. Some tough competition in there.
thefro526
09-04-2010, 12:28
So, to segway away from the 469 discussion.
Are there any other "strikers" in the field? We're a "striker" and managed to make it to the finals in New Jersey. We're planning on modifying our ball possessor once again for the Championship to see if we can eliminate our carrying problem.
(Striker(s) is in quotes because technically any team can be a striker but there are some teams where this is what they prefer to do, and are very good at it)
I'm calling it now. Curie devision is going to win the Championship.
1114, 469, and a third team.
Can we call dibs? :D
Cap'nCollin1986
09-04-2010, 12:53
I would like to insert Team 1986 into the mix! Youngest undefeated team in the United States (something 469 has not been able to do this year)!
Curie's gonna be real good!
Akash Rastogi
09-04-2010, 12:57
I would like to insert Team 1986 into the mix! Youngest undefeated team in the United States (something 469 has not been able to do this year)!
Curie's gonna be real good!
Considering they competed and won 3 events in Michigan (which is a whole nother ball game), I'm fairly sure a 43-9-5 record is something that pretty good.
;)
kwotremb
09-04-2010, 13:00
So, to segway away from the 469 discussion.
Are there any other "strikers" in the field? We're a "striker" and manages to make it to the finals in New Jersey. We're planning on modifying our ball possessor once again for the Championship to see if we can eliminate our carrying problem.
(Striker(s) is in quotes because technically any team can be a striker but there are some teams where this is what they prefer to do, and are very good at it)
If I remember 830 is in this division as well. They usually end up playing the closer/stricker zone. They did well at Traverse City as well as Ann Arbor. Very quick and well driven, some of the top qualities needed in the close zone.
If I remember 830 is in this division as well. They usually end up playing the closer/stricker zone. They did well at Traverse City as well as Ann Arbor. Very quick and well driven, some of the top qualities needed in the close zone.
But once they faced some really good competition at MSC they seemed to falter.
Cap'nCollin1986
09-04-2010, 13:10
With the whole 'undefeated' thing (because i have no idea how to put a quote into a reply), if there is some way to get an upper hand in this division, it definitely wouldn't hurt!
By no means am i trying to take anything away from 469, cuz they're still amazing, but I'm just trying to say that they ARE beatable, and there will definitely be a lot of craziness going on in the Curie Division!
sircedric4
09-04-2010, 13:10
No, they will complain that they got to go to 3 events each or that their "mentors build their robots"... I'll go back to mumbling in my corner now. Good luck 469/1114, you guys have a target the size of Texas on your backs.
I don't know about "mentors building their robots', but I do believe that going to 3 events gives the teams that can afford it a heck of an advantage. Of course, I look at it as a problem for my team to solve not a situation to deny those that can afford it. One year I hope to mentor a team that can afford more than just the local regional, but I recognize the onus is on us to raise those resources.
I also look every year to try and be the team that upsets the big boys with our little underdog robot. :-) We get better each year as me and my fellow mentor and the students learn more tricks about the games. This year we hit on the looper strategy, but didn't get the awesome implementation of 469 since we kill the potential energy to deflect the ball not use it to go straight in the goal. But that lesson learned is going in the bible for future years. :-)
I learn more each year from the teams that have been doing it 20 years, and hope one year that a team I am mentoring will at least be a somewhat known team like the big boys. We are inspired, as is the goal of FIRST, to try and better ourselves to compete at that level. We are looking forward to getting to play in Curie because it means we have a slight chance of playing with some of these awesome teams during qualifiers and get another chance to learn a few tricks.
Good game to all, we have a reasonable goal this year just to play on Saturday afternoon for qualifiers. If we can pull that off everything else is just gravy. :-)
XaulZan11
09-04-2010, 13:21
I would like to insert Team 1986 into the mix! Youngest undefeated team in the United States (something 469 has not been able to do this year)!
Curie's gonna be real good!
You mean youngest team that went undefeated at their second event?
To go back to what Chris said before, I agree that teams shouldn't focus on seeding higher than them, but start strategizing on how to beat a 469/1114 alliance. Unless you play them all 10 qualification matches, you cannot control what they do. The best you can do is to attempt to maximize your seeding points and hope for the best. I think it would be wise to start thinking of ways to beat a 469/1114 alliance because its better to think of that stuff now than lunch time Saturday. After finishing pre-scouting, I hope to come up with an initial list of teams that can fulfill our strategy to pull off the upset. I think a 469/1114 alliance is likely, although I hope it doesn't happen (unless we are their 3rd partner).
A part of me wants to go against 469/1114. Going into the match, you have nothing to lose. No pressure, no expectations, nothing. All the pressure is on them. Just go into the match with a good strategy and hope the ball bounces your way.
rotolomi
09-04-2010, 13:23
Well someone has to be the third team.
Instead of dreading the potential alliance think of ways to impress them so they want you to be part of it!
that's how I feel! we'll never beat 'em, might as well try to join 'em :yikes:
Josh Fox
09-04-2010, 13:30
that's how I feel! we'll never beat 'em, might as well try to join 'em :yikes:
As much as we'd all love to be playing with team 469/1114/111/other good teams Saturday afternoon, only 2 other teams get to do so.
I for one will be thinking of ways to beat them, and then if we are fortunate enough to play with any of them I won't have to worry about beating them anymore.
A part of me wants to go against 469/1114. Going into the match, you have nothing to lose. No pressure, no expectations, nothing. All the pressure is on them. Just go into the match with a good strategy and hope the ball bounces your way.
Unless of course you do have expectations. We were seen an 469's rival. They push better, we hang very reliably. They deflect better, we can deflect during gameplay. Our gameplay was generally equal, we may have been a bit better in that regard. There were expectations for us. And we were so close. And we lost. But now we're back for more.
Anyway, thought I'd insert a little anecdote. Just don't assume there won't be expectations when there probably will be anyway. This is the Championship.
I highly doubt we'd see a 1114/469/2337 alliance, purely because 2337's main feature (the ability to suspend) is useless to 1114, since they hang from the vertical bar.
Clinton Bolinger
09-04-2010, 14:02
I highly doubt we'd see a 1114/469/2337 alliance, purely because 2337's main feature (the ability to suspend) is useless to 1114, since they hang from the vertical bar.
We do provide a lot more to our alliance then just suspending. We are a mid fielder, score from mid, move balls to the offensive zone from the mid, play D in the mid, Divert balls from the mid, hang from the mid, and yes potentially suspend others from the mid.
However that doesn't mean we can't do these things from the offensive or defensive zones.
-Clinton-
I highly doubt we'd see a 1114/469/2337 alliance, purely because 2337's main feature (the ability to suspend) is useless to 1114, since they hang from the vertical bar.
Another reason why we won't see that alliance is because 2337, 469, and 1114 will all be too high up in the seeding for them to make it to the second round picks! (That's right, the nerds are coming to win! :D Graciously)
I was by no means trying to minimize your other contributions to an alliance, however, I suspect 2337 is most likely to be picked for an alliance for that feature, which is of little use to a 1114/469 pair.
XaulZan11
09-04-2010, 14:07
Perhaps I'm my value of teams are incorrect, but I think that if 469/1114 pair up, they will be the favorites. You are not expected to beat them and thus you have no expectations. When you play them, you have to take advantage of any possible advantage you have and one is the proper pressure-free mindset.
thefro526
09-04-2010, 14:08
However that doesn't mean we can't do these things from the offensive or defensive zones.
-Clinton-
Just out of Curiosity, can your machine transfer between zones? I know it's pretty tall, so I imagine you'd struggle a bit if you could...
Just out of Curiosity, can your machine transfer between zones? I know it's pretty tall, so I imagine you'd struggle a bit if you could...
No, we cannot go between zones. We took out that capability so we could better play mid. Some advantages of this is that when we do play mid, we don't need to be cautious around the bumps/transitions. We can't even get up onto the bump, so there is no possibility of us flipping over.
Team 3234 rookie year looks forward to competing and from the Michigan Championship knows that even the top seeded teams can be shutdown with smart play by the opposing alliance. Looking foward to learning more about picking partners for the elimination rounds.
thefro526
09-04-2010, 14:42
No, we cannot go between zones. We took out that capability so we could better play mid. Some advantages of this is that when we do play mid, we don't need to be cautious around the bumps/transitions. We can't even get up onto the bump, so there is no possibility of us flipping over.
Gotcha.
Also, can you hang on the near side of the tower? Does the ball return interfere with your hanging mechanism?
Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get a better feel for your machine.
This going to be interesting, can't wait to see you guys there!
Gotcha.
Also, can you hang on the near side of the tower? Does the ball return interfere with your hanging mechanism?
Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get a better feel for your machine.
I don't mind the questions at all. It's great when someone asks about your robot.
Before adding our ball director, I know we could hang in the near. I haven't seen it tested though, wether or not we can hang from the near with it on, although I'm 98% sure we can.
Edit: Just looked into it, the ball director does not interfere with us hanging from the near.
In the Mid/Near, the ball director doesn't interfere with hanging.
Last I thought I knew, you can't even *touch* the horizontal bars under the ball return chutes, let alone hang from them!?!
So, while 2337 *can* hang from those, I suspect the *may* part is right out!
As a Rookie team Mentor it was interesting to see some of the top seed teams held to less than 10 points in some of the matches. At the Michigan Championships a couple of New teams held 469 to just a few scores by simple playing strategy of starving them for balls. The prior competitive experiences helps but some of the Rookie teams have scored a lot of points this year. In one of our matches all three teams hung at the end for 6 points. The teams that score in autonomous also have an advantage. The scouting databases really don't capture some of that very well. Statistically based on seeding this divison is only 1.5 percentage points lower than Archemedies and almost 8 percentage points higher than the other two divisions.
Joe Ross
09-04-2010, 17:17
Similar to what I did in previous years (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=735425&postcount=165), I ran through 200 simulated qualification match schedules (all 144 matches, using the FIRST match generator). I used each team's average opr (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=85090) for their contribution to a match. I calculated the standings for each of the 200 simulated qualification schedules, and then looked at some statistics from the aggregate results.
Team Avg Rnk Med Rnk Mod Rnk SD Rnk Min Rnk Max Rnk #1 seed Top 8 Avg SS Med SS Stdv SS Min SS Max SS
1114 1.265 1 1 0.48 1 3 150 200 282.415 283 14.12 231 314
469 1.785 2 2 0.48 1 3 49 200 266.71 267.5 15.19 230 309
573 6.495 5 3 5.01 1 38 1 158 209.28 211 23.28 133 271
1986 6.22 5 3 4.24 2 30 0 161 210.265 211 21.16 142 252
1676 11.085 9 5 7.79 2 38 0 97 189.405 190 23.27 134 241
1732 11.98 10 6 7.70 3 40 0 85 185.9 185 24.46 131 247
27 12.095 10 12 8.25 3 52 0 79 185.29 185 24.23 110 249
111 11.81 10 8 7.21 3 37 0 85 185.16 186 21.83 127 244
2775 12.15 10 5 8.43 3 61 0 82 185.375 187 23.72 95 231
2345 12.005 10.5 6 7.65 3 41 0 77 185.955 185 23.35 127 243
2337 11.925 10 9 7.52 3 44 0 77 185.715 186 22.00 123 235
231 22.31 20 9 13.41 4 72 0 22 160.65 161.5 27.15 86 230
175 23.825 22 17 11.92 4 59 0 22 156.12 157 23.31 100 212
1511 24.03 21 19 13.57 4 61 0 16 157.175 159 25.51 96 223
368 21.895 19 12 11.76 5 63 0 13 160.79 163 23.43 100 216
1912 22.725 20 17 12.52 3 62 0 18 158.945 160 24.75 97 237
2612 23.055 21 21 12.15 4 65 0 15 158.565 161 24.06 94 210
2410 24.88 22 20 13.43 3 69 0 13 154.875 157 25.95 82 221
624 23.975 21 14 13.07 4 74 0 16 156.74 159 25.19 78 213
1421 24.265 22 16 13.66 3 72 0 24 156.91 157 27.32 83 241
830 23 20.5 23 13.44 3 64 0 26 158.8 160.5 26.33 96 222
88 23.89 21 14 13.98 3 66 0 19 157.38 157.5 27.38 88 217
386 22.155 21 21 11.09 3 61 0 25 159.895 159 23.80 100 224
291 26.065 24 24 13.80 5 73 0 11 152.585 153 25.63 71 220
1538 23.245 21 20 11.88 4 60 0 15 157.345 158.5 23.37 100 213
2557 38.905 39 41 17.16 8 84 0 2 130.305 130 28.04 55 195
126 39.285 36 28 16.03 4 79 0 2 129.24 133 25.54 70 206
192 39.04 38 37 16.44 8 77 0 1 129.595 130 25.81 70 192
816 37.655 37 30 14.73 6 83 0 1 131.44 133 23.49 62 194
2992 39.805 38.5 34 15.95 9 81 0 0 128.14 127.5 25.23 72 184
2169 37.515 39 24 15.17 6 78 0 3 132.265 130.5 25.45 63 212
1649 37.81 38 42 14.76 6 80 0 3 131.95 129 24.43 67 199
171 41.76 39 27 16.26 8 82 0 2 125.525 127 25.30 64 194
3186 38.83 38 42 15.73 8 78 0 1 129.955 128 25.51 61 189
40 37.87 37 32 15.14 5 81 0 2 131.395 132 24.75 65 199
138 39.77 39 35 15.30 10 83 0 0 128.27 129 24.47 57 182
1391 37.3 35 35 16.40 6 81 0 4 132.53 132 27.33 65 204
1379 37.56 37.5 41 15.95 6 75 0 4 132.73 131 26.37 77 199
1033 39.77 39 23 16.26 11 79 0 0 128.715 129 25.74 62 185
3234 39.94 41 26 15.89 7 78 0 1 128.075 125.5 24.88 67 188
2648 40.715 39 38 15.53 5 74 0 4 127.23 126.5 24.43 67 198
1764 41.16 39.5 32 15.75 5 82 0 3 126.115 127 25.16 54 202
388 37.25 36 15 15.73 3 79 0 4 133.07 133 26.12 66 214
537 37.48 35 22 14.90 9 74 0 0 132.07 135 23.97 74 191
3145 38.47 37 31 16.17 6 85 0 3 130.435 129.5 26.25 54 203
3284 40.035 40 25 16.90 10 81 0 0 128.16 126 26.92 65 188
191 38.82 39 43 15.94 5 76 0 2 130.395 129 25.87 74 206
1980 38.205 37 37 15.40 7 82 0 2 130.6 131 24.62 51 197
2252 57.825 58.5 77 15.73 17 85 0 0 100.16 101 24.84 40 169
440 56.48 59 65 15.71 18 86 0 0 102.34 100 24.41 46 171
1126 56.395 57 53 15.83 15 85 0 0 102.095 104 24.98 42 170
3230 56.345 57 53 16.10 15 86 0 0 102.215 100 25.48 37 173
2583 58.72 60.5 51 15.44 15 86 0 0 98.835 97.5 24.58 36 169
3142 59.165 60 72 15.25 10 86 0 0 97.865 97 24.00 41 184
340 57.09 59 62 15.85 10 85 0 0 100.89 98 25.15 29 181
288 58.57 60 74 15.30 22 85 0 0 98.94 97 23.66 49 153
3299 55.41 56.5 58 15.54 15 85 0 0 103.835 104 24.12 41 167
1334 57.11 59 62 15.63 12 86 0 0 101.485 99.5 24.23 53 174
237 58.725 59 70 15.08 15 86 0 0 98.37 98.5 23.63 37 167
115 55.285 58 68 15.76 11 86 0 0 104.055 101.5 23.84 50 177
1306 56.02 57 50 15.89 11 86 0 0 103.005 102 25.10 38 178
2865 58.51 60 60 16.58 10 85 0 0 99.215 97 25.78 45 190
223 58.015 60 72 16.10 12 86 0 0 99.75 98 25.47 46 178
888 56.735 58 55 15.90 16 85 0 0 101.375 101.5 25.07 39 167
832 56.21 58 63 15.19 17 83 0 0 102.995 103 23.48 54 164
1398 54.95 53 51 16.15 16 86 0 0 103.775 106 24.95 47 168
931 58.155 58.5 57 15.55 12 85 0 0 99.8 100 24.80 43 180
2041 57.77 58.5 65 15.44 11 86 0 0 100.525 99 24.44 31 179
3207 55.63 56.5 65 15.15 17 85 0 0 103.26 102 23.61 48 162
692 72.855 75 84 11.59 35 86 0 0 73.76 72.5 22.35 24 138
597 70.05 73 83 13.33 27 86 0 0 79.41 78 23.59 30 142
2667 70.915 74.5 84 12.91 26 86 0 0 76.58 74 24.32 22 141
1747 73.23 76 86 11.82 24 86 0 0 72.84 72 22.30 25 149
141 71.34 75 78 12.47 22 86 0 0 76.785 74 22.38 23 146
3271 71.475 74 82 11.76 35 86 0 0 77.08 76.5 21.21 30 131
75 72.27 75 84 11.16 30 86 0 0 75.045 73.5 21.66 21 141
1350 71.51 75 76 11.60 27 86 0 0 76.785 74.5 22.03 23 154
1251 73.015 76 78 11.64 24 86 0 0 73.285 72 22.40 27 141
3405 71.795 74 85 11.87 25 86 0 0 75.54 76 23.13 21 158
2550 70.475 73 84 13.16 28 86 0 0 77.535 77 24.73 30 146
296 70.84 74 77 12.74 20 86 0 0 77.515 78 23.47 23 153
48 71.735 75 81 12.43 33 86 0 0 75.985 73 22.67 23 144
2449 72.16 75.5 86 12.26 32 86 0 0 74.58 73 23.39 24 143
1075 71.87 74.5 81 11.79 30 86 0 0 75.74 75.5 22.38 24 138
2630 71.77 74 82 11.74 24 86 0 0 76.305 75 21.79 26 157
3339 71.5 73.5 82 12.36 20 86 0 0 76.205 75 22.38 20 155
Blackphantom91
09-04-2010, 18:11
I would like to personally wish all the teams in Curie Good Luck! It will be very interesting and exciting to see the best robots go at it!
Joe: That's really cool! Thank you for posting the data, now we know what to beat!
Dustin: I looked into it with our robot, and if we end up playing near, the only way for us to hang is to take off our ball director (which we wouldn't be using anyways), drive up to the bump on our side, and using only one hook, hit the side of the tower from near. Obviously, risky, but I guess we can do it. And if we're gonna play near, we'd know in advance.
Vermeulen
09-04-2010, 18:32
Holy crap... 469, 1114, 2337, and 111 in the same division? This is going to be fun!
Holy crap... 469, 1114, 2337, and 111 in the same division? This is going to be fun!
ITS GOING TO BE INTENSE!!...I'd be willing to bet that the alliance that Curie sends to Einstein will at the very least be Einstein finalists if not the winner.
ITS GOING TO BE INTENSE!!...I'd be willing to bet that the alliance that Curie sends to Einstein will at the very least be Einstein finalists if not the winner.
The thing is that the Curie winner faces up against the Archimedes winner, and Archimedes is just as good this year.
ITS GOING TO BE INTENSE!!...I'd be willing to bet that the alliance that Curie sends to Einstein will at the very least be Einstein finalists if not the winner.
Either that or Archimedes. Both divisions seem pretty stacked this year. But no matter what we see, it'll be nothing compared to the competition we saw at MSC!
For those of you that haven't heard, it sounds like our MC is Mark Leon this year!
It really is too bad Karthik doesnt MC CMP...
DonRotolo
09-04-2010, 21:53
watch out, there's a new powerhouse on the block this year. Umm...who is it? :confused:
If I were you, I would worry less about how to dethrone the best and more about how to win the division. Can anyone think of a strategy that would nullify all of 1114 or 469's strengths? Do it and you win. Fer instance:
At the Michigan Championships a couple of New teams held 469 to just a few scores by simple playing strategy of starving them for balls.And what's 1114's weakness? (besides Krispy Kremes, that is :p )
Oh, yes, 1114's kids are not about to let their mentors have all the fun of building their robot. They just work harder at design and build.
Umm...who is it? :confused:
Can anyone think of a strategy that would nullify all of 1114 or 469's strengths? Do it and you win.
Along the lines of beating 469...
217 beat them once in qualifying at Cass Tech, tied them at Troy (and then got demolished), beat them in MSC qualifying, and then went 1-2-1 in the finals at MSC. That's a 3-2-2 record so far this year. And, if you take a look at one of the matches, their strategy to beat 469 isn't really that complex either. I see at least one team doing this to 469 during Curie and having identical success. If there's an upset with 469 losing in the elims, there'll be a team doing that.
My $0.02.
This is what I am thinking is the first step to beating 469.
I think the general thinking is the following:
A) Beating 469 on their own, doable. Difficult, but doable.
B) Beating 1114 on their own, doable. Again, Difficult, but doable.
C) Beating them together, thats where everyone's big question mark is. Since A) and B) are so difficult, preventing C) from becoming a problem in Elims is looking to be EXTREMELY difficult.
Hmm.. So lets say someone besides 2 certain teams get the first alliance. Who do you choose? 469? 1114 And why??
DonRotolo
09-04-2010, 22:26
Hmm.. So lets say someone besides 2 certain teams get the first alliance. Who do you choose? 469? 1114 And why??
1114, because they are more versatile.
Tarzan19
09-04-2010, 22:27
Im really glad to see some other GRKC Regional teams that are going to be in Curie. Good luck to 1986, 1764, and 2410 and everyone else in the Curie division. This is going to be an awesome first time in the CMP.
I spoke with one of my team's coaches today about this very issue. 469 has a massive target on the back of their heads...EVERYONE is planning how to shut them down. We have seen that they can be stopped, it is possible...and I don't think that 1114 is going to choose a team that EVERY TEAM IN THE WORLD is thinking about how to beat. Personally I'm hoping to give 1114 a run for their money when it comes to 1st seed but regardless I don't think they're gong to pick 469. I think 1114 is the team to look out for, they're the ones you need to worry about how to beat. I'm predicting that 469 does not make it to Einstein...but hey who knows...
Im really glad to see some other GRKC Regional teams that are going to be in Curie. Good luck to 1986, 1764, and 2410 and everyone else in the Curie division. This is going to be an awesome first time in the CMP.
Don't forget about 931!
Excited to see you guys in our division! I hope pits are in order of team number like they were the last time I was at championships. I never got to see the inner workings of your teams outstanding robot and would really like to know what makes this thing tick.
Hmm.. So lets say someone besides 2 certain teams get the first alliance. Who do you choose? 469? 1114 And why??
Depends on who I am. If I'm an excellent scorer (like 1114, 217, 148, etc), then 469. If I'm anyone else, 1114. IF either declines, I pick the other. If both decline, I've successfully prevented them from picking each other.
Also, if 1114 seeds #1, I do expect them to pick 469, unless 469 breaks or something. 469's ball recycle-ability is of extreme value to a top notch scorer like 1114, even if some of the balls get defended. The fact remains that defense alone cannot win a match, you have to score points somehow. If all of your resources are tied up stopping 469 from doing their thing, you're not scoring balls.
Josh Fox
09-04-2010, 23:37
Team RUSH is excited about many things for Atlanta, one of which is the chance we'll have the coveted corner pit since we're the lowest number in our division! ;)
I spoke with one of my team's coaches today about this very issue. 469 has a massive target on the back of their heads...EVERYONE is planning how to shut them down. We have seen that they can be stopped, it is possible...and I don't think that 1114 is going to choose a team that EVERY TEAM IN THE WORLD is thinking about how to beat. Personally I'm hoping to give 1114 a run for their money when it comes to 1st seed but regardless I don't think they're gong to pick 469. I think 1114 is the team to look out for, they're the ones you need to worry about how to beat. I'm predicting that 469 does not make it to Einstein...but hey who knows...
I would bet a whole lot of money that if 1114 is #1 they're picking 469. It would simply be stupid not to.
217 and 67 couldn't beat 469 when 469 had 1918. How would two lesser robots beat 469 when they have 1114?
waialua359
10-04-2010, 01:10
I would bet a whole lot of money that if 1114 is #1 they're picking 469. It would simply be stupid not to.
217 and 67 couldn't beat 469 when 469 had 1918. How would two lesser robots beat 469 when they have 1114?
absolutely true.
As others have mentioned, if you have the #1 pick and pretty good at scoring, fire the scouting team if they dont tell you to pick 469.
The Lucas
10-04-2010, 01:30
I spoke with one of my team's coaches today about this very issue. 469 has a massive target on the back of their heads...EVERYONE is planning how to shut them down.
They do have a massive target on their backs. I expect this to be a significant hurdle to seeding #1. I expect their qualifiers to be very rough because teams will approach the match as a chance to try out their defense against them (maybe impress some teams) instead of just increase their own seeding points, thus lower seeding points for the winner (which will be 469 most of the time). 469 also doesnt generate many cooperation points since they cant score for their opponents as effectively as themselves.
However, 1114 shouldn't have this issue. They are a conventional style bot so no unconventional defense to try (probably will get some 6v0 though). They can and will score for their opponents to up their seeding points. As long as they avoid the red cards ;) they are the favorite to seed #1 IMHO.
We have seen that they can be stopped, it is possible...and I don't think that 1114 is going to choose a team that EVERY TEAM IN THE WORLD is thinking about how to beat. Personally I'm hoping to give 1114 a run for their money when it comes to 1st seed but regardless I don't think they're gong to pick 469. I think 1114 is the team to look out for, they're the ones you need to worry about how to beat. I'm predicting that 469 does not make it to Einstein...but hey who knows...
1114 & 469 together would be a heavy favorite to win their division in 6 matches. Why would either not want this alliance to form? Everyone is gunning for 469 but who really has a shot to beat them on a good elim alliance? Maybe 1114 and a few others, but why would 1114 take that risk? 1114 will pick 469 and visa versa if given a chance and they will be nearly unbeatable. Now if someone else seeds #1 (always a distinct possibility at CMP with the possibility of tough qual matches) this division will get real interesting.
Travis Hoffman
10-04-2010, 05:11
48 will exist in Curie and expects with some simple upgrades to bring a more capable robot to the field than it has previously this season.
If we were tossing the spirit of competition out the window, the only X v Y strategy against 1114 and 469 that has a high probablility of keeping either team from #1 seed during qualifying is 84v2. A full out assault from all the relative peasants and lesser nobles on the castle where the King and Queen of Curie reside. Total lockdown of all four goals by opponents and partners in any match 1114 and/or 469 is in. 1114 is especially dangerous even by themselves and would weather most any form of traditional countermeasures to keep their scores low. They've faced strong resistance from other solid robots and still managed to win the seeding battle every time.
In the case of total, absolute collusion, however, 1114/469 (and the unfortunate spectators who must watch these borefests) bear the full brunt of the low seed scores from such debacles, while the rest of the field bears only a fraction of it...unless the Algorithm of Death were still around, but I digress.
Since that situation will never bear itself out in a FIRST competition setting, it will be exceedingly difficult to dethrone these two, save for the influence of fate/luck/karma/divine intervention, for I feel the lion's share of preparation and execution lies with these two teams. They've both done an excellent job of building up their castle walls such that even the best armies of the Curie kingdom would be hard-pressed to breach them.
[/figurative language overload]
DonRotolo
10-04-2010, 13:43
the only X v Y strategy against 1114 and 469 that has a high probablility of keeping either team from #1 seed during qualifying is 84v2.
[/figurative language overload]
Ah, yes, you CAN have too much figurative language. Thanks Travis :D
So what's with Curie's obsession to prevent these teams from being #1 seed? Wouldn't you prefer to be something like 1st pick from the #1 seed?
Experienced teams know this, but #1 and #2 seeds rarely ally together. Not because they each think they can win it all 'on their own', but because they have robots that do not complement each other for that year's game.
OK, a concrete example: If you have three "front pusher bits", will that win you much? No, but an alliance with a front pusher bot, a mid kicker bot who hangs, and a defense bot who kicks across 2 zones and is fast - well, those three complement each other.
469 is too easy to defend against, once you've seen them. Oh, don't misunderstand: They are very good, and they will do well. But they don't move, and they need a second robot in their offensive zone to defend against the defender. So on the other side of the field, it's 2 on 1 against their alliance: A decent alliance will deny 469 balls and then proceed to whip their butts in 2 on 1...while they sit there.
(Of course, 469 knows this, so they are likely working to change their game. But there will always be a weakness....)
I don't know what matches you watched but 469 doesn't in anyway ,shape or form just sits there. If blocked they play midfield just like any other bot. They can start and stop the return loop set-up anytime they want. The best you can do is stop their auto set-up and then play hard defence against them,but then all you will have is 2v2. They are the best at what they do.
A decent alliance will deny 469 balls and then proceed to whip their butts in 2 on 1...while they sit there.
If it was that easy 469 wouldn't have won a single event.
67 and 217 couldn't do it. That's far better than a decent alliance.
AdamHeard
10-04-2010, 15:54
Ah, yes, you CAN have too much figurative language. Thanks Travis :D
So what's with Curie's obsession to prevent these teams from being #1 seed? Wouldn't you prefer to be something like 1st pick from the #1 seed?
Experienced teams know this, but #1 and #2 seeds rarely ally together. Not because they each think they can win it all 'on their own', but because they have robots that do not complement each other for that year's game.
OK, a concrete example: If you have three "front pusher bits", will that win you much? No, but an alliance with a front pusher bot, a mid kicker bot who hangs, and a defense bot who kicks across 2 zones and is fast - well, those three complement each other.
469 is too easy to defend against, once you've seen them. Oh, don't misunderstand: They are very good, and they will do well. But they don't move, and they need a second robot in their offensive zone to defend against the defender. So on the other side of the field, it's 2 on 1 against their alliance: A decent alliance will deny 469 balls and then proceed to whip their butts in 2 on 1...while they sit there.
(Of course, 469 knows this, so they are likely working to change their game. But there will always be a weakness....)
If 1114 and 469 pair, their excellent scouting will net them the best possible 3rd; From there, it will be domination.
Could anyone explain how Championships run? Someone in the thread earlier mentioned Curie winners facing the Archemides winners. There was also a mention to the Einstein field. A brief summary will do.
Ryan Simpson
10-04-2010, 16:13
Could anyone explain how Championships run? Someone in the thread earlier mentioned Curie winners facing the Archemides winners. There was also a mention to the Einstein field. A brief summary will do.
In a nutshell:
There are 4 fields (Curie, Archimedes, Galileo, Newton). The winning alliances of those 4 fields face off on Einstein to determine the Championship winner. Einstein is basically the "Final Four" of the Championship Event.
Chris is me
10-04-2010, 16:34
469 is too easy to defend against, once you've seen them. Oh, don't misunderstand: They are very good, and they will do well. But they don't move, and they need a second robot in their offensive zone to defend against the defender. So on the other side of the field, it's 2 on 1 against their alliance: A decent alliance will deny 469 balls and then proceed to whip their butts in 2 on 1...while they sit there.
Not quite.
They've tried to assemble alliances that establish ball advantage in autonomous mode. if that happens, you've got a very much uphill battle.
If the cycle needs a few more balls, all they do is pop out of the tunnel and kick some over. They're a decent feeder bot even without their deflection.
Tarzan19
10-04-2010, 20:26
Excited to see you guys in our division! I hope pits are in order of team number like they were the last time I was at championships. I never got to see the inner workings of your teams outstanding robot and would really like to know what makes this thing tick.
Sounds good. Looking forward to it. Cant wait to see how we as Kansas city teams do in Curie.
Not quite.
They've tried to assemble alliances that establish ball advantage in autonomous mode. if that happens, you've got a very much uphill battle.
If the cycle needs a few more balls, all they do is pop out of the tunnel and kick some over. They're a decent feeder bot even without their deflection.
They aren't just decent, they are one of the top five in the division. Without their deflection system (based on their kicker system), they would still be in eliminations.
My thinking here is 1114 + 469 pairing up for elims makes their third bot almost completely irrelevant. Their third bot will be a bot that can start in the offensive zone, so 1114 can run their far zone auto, and then traverse the two bumps to go play (mostly irrelevant) defense. As much as I'd love to be that team, theres a limited amount of glory there. Upsetting a hypothetical 1114+469 alliance on the other hand, now THAT would stick in the minds of everyone who sees it. Even for one match. I am still blown away by SF1.1 at GTR, 2949/1305/1404 brought the thunder big time, and were beat 15-11 with 1114 and 1547 up for 4.
Vikesrock
11-04-2010, 02:21
My thinking here is 1114 + 469 pairing up for elims makes their third bot almost completely irrelevant. Their third bot will be a bot that can start in the offensive zone, so 1114 can run their far zone auto, and then traverse the two bumps to go play (mostly irrelevant) defense. As much as I'd love to be that team, theres a limited amount of glory there. Upsetting a hypothetical 1114+469 alliance on the other hand, now THAT would stick in the minds of everyone who sees it. Even for one match. I am still blown away by SF1.1 at GTR, 2949/1305/1404 brought the thunder big time, and were beat 15-11 with 1114 and 1547 up for 4.
IMO this would be a mistake if 1114 and 469 got together and decided to play this way. I think there are two ways to go with that alliance. One way would be to go with a fast striker like 830 or 171 and try to clean up anything missed by 1114 and 469. You don't care how many they score because you can score more. Another way to go would be to get a robot with a strong drivetrain and decent kicker like 2041 and try to starve the opponent of balls entirely (this strategy may also work with a striker like listed above). If the opponents defender is trying to clear balls 2041 would stay in the near zone and push them around, while 1114 moves every ball they can get to forward into their near zone. If the defender can't clear balls effectively (probably a bad strategy by the opponents) 2041 could move back to the midzone and help 1114 move balls forward.
Having said all that, both the 1114 and 469 scouts and strategists are some of, if not the, best there are. If they pair up, they will already have a plan (actually a few probably) for how they would like to play and who fits that strategy.
EDIT: Thought of more I wanted to say here. Every alliance in every recent game is made up of 3 robots. The competition at the Championship is at a high enough level that even two impressive robots like 1114 and 469 will need the third robot if they want to win a championship. Whoever this third robot is they will certainly be remembered as a World Champion. A well respected mentor of a recent Championship team said that the Championship could have been won by even if they fielded a refrigerator, but I bet most CD members could tell you who the third member of the 1114-217 alliance was.
Don Wright
11-04-2010, 10:24
I just want to throw the other side of the coin to most of the posts in this thread. I know that this might seem like I'm trying to sway people to play differently than most of the posts above, but I just wanted to air it...
There are a lot of good teams in this division. Maybe it doesn't have the "star power" of the other divisions, but it's still very strong. Also, with the number of teams, and number of matches, the chance of getting in a qualification match with a top scoring team (either for or against) is low.
Remember, there are no wins and losses in qualification matches, only points. The only difference is that the alliance that scores more points gets two bonuses: 2x their opponent score and the 5 pt bonus.
If you want to seed well, you need to score as many points in every match you play as you possibly can. By scoring points, and seeding high, you can even control your own destiny by being in the top eight.
So, if that is your mindset, you might want to think about using your match with or against a top team to get a huge score and boost your seeding place. No, I'm not saying 6v0...although that is an option. I'm just saying that if you are lucky to get in 2 or 3 matches with a good scoring robot, those 30, 40, or 50 point matches will do a lot to getting you high into the rankings.
Furthermore, I believe that the third robot as a good striker is very important. We had a great striker in MSC and it won it for us. I will more likely take notice of the robots that go out every match and even just push in 6-8 balls per match than the robot that went out and (IMHO) didn't play the game very smart for qualifications and played defense the whole time. This causes both alliances to get a low score, which in qualification matches IS against the spirit of the game due to how the GDC has the scoring system this year... So even if you "win", you drop in rankings.
I know I'm going to have to put my flame suit on because a lot of you are going to take this as me trying to change how everyone plays against us so we can pair up with so-and-so...that's why I rarely (never) post in threads like this...
But, I honestly believe that if all of you focus so much on a few teams, and how to stop them, you are just going to hurt your chances to do well at the World Championships. It takes 24 robots and 8 alliances and 8 captains to play Saturday afternoon. Be one of those captains!
CURIE IS GONNA BE SICK! I'm really excited to see all of these teams and looking forward to meeting some new people! It's gonna be our last year at the Georgia Dome so lets bring home a Curie win!
If I remember 830 is in this division as well. They usually end up playing the closer/stricker zone. They did well at Traverse City as well as Ann Arbor. Very quick and well driven, some of the top qualities needed in the close zone.But once they faced some really good competition at MSC they seemed to falter.
That is only because 830 had 4 blown victors for 3 Matches at MSC. In any matches they were fully functioning they were scoring 6-8 balls a match.
Chris is me
11-04-2010, 11:12
Furthermore, I believe that the third robot as a good striker is very important. We had a great striker in MSC and it won it for us. I will more likely take notice of the robots that go out every match and even just push in 6-8 balls per match than the robot that went out and (IMHO) didn't play the game very smart for qualifications and played defense the whole time. This causes both alliances to get a low score, which in qualification matches IS against the spirit of the game due to how the GDC has the scoring system this year... So even if you "win", you drop in rankings.
Man, I wish you guys were in Connecticut now...
The other side of the coin is what if you play as the GDC intended and run up scores all qualifying schedule long, possibly including a 6v0... and alliance captains decide that they would be disgusted to pick someone like you, because they have a personal prejudice against running up scores or avoiding defense? This is a bigger issue than I ever thought at the beginning of the season.
PerpetualMotion
11-04-2010, 11:48
Man, I wish you guys were in Connecticut now...
The other side of the coin is what if you play as the GDC intended and run up scores all qualifying schedule long, possibly including a 6v0... and alliance captains decide that they would be disgusted to pick someone like you, because they have a personal prejudice against running up scores or avoiding defense? This is a bigger issue than I ever thought at the beginning of the season.
Anyone with this prejudice doesn't understand the game, or isn't willing to entertain strategies that will results in them winning championships, so I wouldn't want to be on their alliance anyways.
Chris is me
11-04-2010, 11:54
Anyone with this prejudice doesn't understand the game, or isn't willing to entertain strategies that will results in them winning championships, so I wouldn't want to be on their alliance anyways.
I'll just say you would be very surprised at the teams that would do that.
A question:
If it is the last qualification match, 469 is seeded 3rd (but they have finished all their matches), you are seeded 4th, 1114 is seeded 2nd and needs 20 seeding points to reach 1st seed, and you are on 1114's alliance, is it better to:
1. Play normally, possibly improving your position in the top 8, and almost certainly making 1114 first seed? OR
2. Have your human player refuse to return balls. This will rack up many DOGMA penalties and cause you (and 1114) to lose. 1114 will almost certainly not become the first seed.
The second option will break up the 1114-469 alliance, and since this is the last qualification match, you will still be an alliance captain. Does this make your team more likely to win the division?
EDIT: If you pick the second option, you can even pin the opposing robots to lower 1114's seeding score; you wouldn't care about the penalties (in fact, you would want them) since you are intending to lose anyway.
Chris is me
11-04-2010, 13:35
A question:
If it is the last qualification match, 469 is seeded 3rd (but they have finished all their matches), you are seeded 4th, 1114 is seeded 2nd and needs 20 seeding points to reach 1st seed, and you are on 1114's alliance, is it better to:
1. Play normally, possibly improving your position in the top 8, and almost certainly making 1114 first seed? OR
2. Have your human player refuse to return balls. This will rack up many DOGMA penalties and cause you (and 1114) to lose. 1114 will almost certainly not become the first seed.
The second option will break up the 1114-469 alliance, and since this is the last qualification match, you will still be an alliance captain. Does this make your team more likely to win the division?
It makes the executer of such a strategy a massive jerk who will stop at nothing just to make an overhyped alliance not happen, and they'd go on my DNA/DNP list immediately. I know that's a bit harsh, but when is all this "lulz how are we going to stop 1114 and 469" discussion become too much? You want to win, but at that cost?
sammyjalex
11-04-2010, 13:37
Plain and simple, while it's become cliche, it doesn't stop being true: FIRST is about more than robots and a competition.
It's about bettering yourself as a human being and expanding your mind; becoming the person with the social and mental capabilities you dream of becoming.
Ask that question you just asked back to yourself and question how it reflects these ideals. What do you think your grandmother would say, as Woodie tends to say. What if you were in 1114's shoes and your partner was working against with complete intention? How would you feel?
That's just my two cents. Ask yourself first before asking the community because very often on these forums, moral dilemmas are posted as strategy. What does Gracious Professionalism mean to you? Give it meaning in your life.
Sam
It makes the executer of such a strategy a massive jerk who will stop at nothing just to make an overhyped alliance not happen, and they'd go on my DNA/DNP list immediately. I know that's a bit harsh, but when is all this "lulz how are we going to stop 1114 and 469" discussion become too much? You want to win, but at that cost?
I wasn't asking about the effect on the team's reputation, only on its chances of winning (and I agree that it makes the human player a jerk). In my post, I said that it was the last qualification match and the team was already an alliance captain, so they do not have to be picked to make eliminations. This is what I was thinking: if 1114 and 469 form an alliance, what are your chances of winning? Virtually zero. If they don't, what are your chances? Slightly better. Therefore, if you are already an alliance captain, anything that prevents 1114 and 469 from teaming up will help your team win, although it may not be worth the damage to your reputation.
Vikesrock
11-04-2010, 13:41
The second option will break up the 1114-469 alliance, and since this is the last qualification match, you will still be an alliance captain. Does this make your team more likely to win the division?
This brings up an interesting question. What if enough teams decline an alliance selection that there are not enough teams remaining to fill out the 8 alliances?
Plain and simple, while it's become cliche, it doesn't stop being true: FIRST is about more than robots and a competition.
It's about bettering yourself as a human being and expanding your mind; becoming the person with the social and mental capabilities you dream of becoming.
Ask that question you just asked back to yourself and question how it reflects these ideals. What do you think your grandmother would say, as Woodie tends to say. What if you were in 1114's shoes and your partner was working against with complete intention? How would you feel?
That's just my two cents. Ask yourself first before asking the community because very often on these forums, moral dilemmas are posted as strategy. What does Gracious Professionalism mean to you? Give it meaning in your life.
Sam
I was not trying to promote the strategy, and I agree with you that it should never be used. I only wanted to point out that, if a team ever did find itself in this situation, it might have an incentive to basically play against its alliance members.
A question:
1. Play normally, possibly improving your position in the top 8, and almost certainly making 1114 first seed? OR
2. Have your human player refuse to return balls. This will rack up many DOGMA penalties and cause you (and 1114) to lose. 1114 will almost certainly not become the first seed.
The first one. The second option is mean! Intentional DOGMA penalties = bad. If 1114 seeds second because your human player intentionally racked up DOGMA penalties, two things will happen:
1. The #1 seed, who is obviously really good, will probably pick 469.
2. 1114, seeded #2, will not pick your team, because you were a bunch of jerks to them.
So you're not going to win the division, either way. I don't see how penalizing yourself in the last qualification match will help you in any way. I know what my team would do in this situation. We would play to the best of our ability, then get ready to play some tough matches in elims.
We're now at the point where people are suggesting and advocating that teams throw matches to hurt their alliance partners. Out of the box strategy is one thing, sabotage is another. I'm speechless.
Andrew Schreiber
11-04-2010, 15:53
A question:
If it is the last qualification match, 469 is seeded 3rd (but they have finished all their matches), you are seeded 4th, 1114 is seeded 2nd and needs 20 seeding points to reach 1st seed, and you are on 1114's alliance, is it better to:
1. Play normally, possibly improving your position in the top 8, and almost certainly making 1114 first seed? OR
2. Have your human player refuse to return balls. This will rack up many DOGMA penalties and cause you (and 1114) to lose. 1114 will almost certainly not become the first seed.
The second option will break up the 1114-469 alliance, and since this is the last qualification match, you will still be an alliance captain. Does this make your team more likely to win the division?
EDIT: If you pick the second option, you can even pin the opposing robots to lower 1114's seeding score; you wouldn't care about the penalties (in fact, you would want them) since you are intending to lose anyway.
Aside from the fact that it may not work... NO. God, no. Play your best every single match you go out there. To do anything else is disrespectful to your partners, your opponents, your team mates, your sponsors, your school, your division, and all of us in FRC. It sours the vision of FIRST. I would rather lose to 1114/469 100-0 than intentionally draw one penalty. Don't even suggest it. Don't even JOKE about it.
This sort of talk just makes me ashamed to be in FIRST right now. Dean, Dave, or Woodie, could you guys PLEASE address this train of thought in one of your speeches? This denouncement of successful teams is so contrary to everything I think FIRST stands for and I think teams need to hear it from the visionaries of FIRST.
We're now at the point where people are suggesting and advocating that teams throw matches to hurt their alliance partners. Out of the box strategy is one thing, sabotage is another. I'm speechless.
I just want to repeat that I am NOT advocating this... I am ONLY asking whether this would help a team captain in eliminations... Obviously this strategy is not worth using for other reasons.
Travis Hoffman
11-04-2010, 16:02
If 1114 seeds second because your human player intentionally racked up DOGMA penalties, two things will happen:
1. The #1 seed, who is obviously really good, will probably pick 469.
2. 1114, seeded #2, will not pick your team, because you were a bunch of jerks to them.
So you're not going to win the division, either way.
Such a bleak fate for those who aren't allied with either of those two teams. :D
This thread is interesting - it's like a political campaign, with different parties each pushing their agendas, trying to win the support of the impressionable masses.
As a team that falls squarely within the vast community of the "non-elite" in the Curie Division (despite our name), I'd like to introduce the "Little Guy Party" platform. One which supports:
the balanced spread of the best teams across all eight alliances for the most exciting Curie elimination rounds possible.
the balanced use of offense or defense in team strategy, at each team's discretion. If you like to score, then score. If you like to defend, then defend. If you like to drive in circles, drive in circles! Each team defines for themselves their own "spirit of the game".
in a match against a highly-regarded opponent, the balanced notion that if some great offensive teams leverage the "coopertition" system in their favor by scoring for their opponents (or publicly advocating that the opposition offer less resistance for a bigger scoring "cookie"), then it is equally justifiable for a lesser team who does not have superior abilities to try and limit the favorite's seed rank in a defensive, low scoring match. Not only are they demonstrating marketable elimination round skills against the best competition, they are also increasing the chances of the best of the best seeding lower, leading to more balanced alliances 1-8 and a better shot at advancing for more of the "common" teams. If it's ok for an elite team to ask a Little Guy Team to not offer much resistance in order to maximize their chances of pushing to the top, then it's also ok for teams to try and reject that reality and substitute their own. Not all teams in Atlanta are built to be alliance captains. Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise. Instead, demonstrate what you can do to contribute positively to a winning elimination round alliance. I feel THAT is in the best interest of the majority of teams competing within the Curie division.
Not caving in to the funky "coopertition" pressures of "the system", which often benefits the superior teams' final status far more than that of any of the lesser teams who allow it to happen. Is it smart (or entertaining?) to let someone walk all over you just so you can get a weak rankings boost relative to the bigger boost you're giving to the superior teams by rocketing them to the top of the rankings chart? Keeping the elite teams at the top means they can more easily control their destinies (and therefore, you). Don't automatically buy into claims of "free health care" when in reality people are just trying to leverage their exceedingly high levels of charm, charisma, and good looks to schmooze the public into reelecting them - make them fight even harder to keep their spot at the top - make sure YOUR best interests are being served. ;)
the right of each team to play the game the way they believe it should be played, and their right to stand up for those beliefs during pre-match strategizing, regardless of whom they are partnered with or what strategies are advocated. Let your voice be heard.
the rejection of any "strategies" which are designed to limit the success of any of your alliance PARTNERS. These matches are also ripe with opportunities to demonstrate marketable elimination round skills - working well WITH the most powerful teams when presented with such a bipartisan opportunity often increases your chances of reaping benefits down the road.In summary, the Little Guy Party platform supports working hard with the best when you have the opportunity to play alongside them, but don't do them any favors when squaring off against them, especially if such favors elevate their standing over and above any goals you've set for yourself at the competition.
delsaner
11-04-2010, 16:07
This sort of talk just makes me ashamed to be in FIRST right now. Dean, Dave, or Woodie, could you guys PLEASE address this train of thought in one of your speeches? This denouncement of successful teams is so contrary to everything I think FIRST stands for and I think teams need to hear it from the visionaries of FIRST.
We're now at the point where people are suggesting and advocating that teams throw matches to hurt their alliance partners. Out of the box strategy is one thing, sabotage is another. I'm speechless.
I agree with these statements 100%, but you cant really take the competitiveness out of some people and the yearn to win. Don't get me wrong, being competitive and wanting to win is fine, but when it reaches the extent of considering sabotaging another robot, that is when it is looked down upon. I'd love to win a championship field and more onto Einstein, but Id rather lose fairly then win unfairly. I think people have forgotten about GP, which is a bit of a pity. My thoughts.
=/
I agree with these statements 100%, but you cant really take the competitiveness out of some people and the yearn to win. Don't get me wrong, being competitive and wanting to win is fine, but when it reaches the extent of considering sabotaging another robot, that is when it is looked down upon. I'd love to win a championship field and more onto Einstein, but Id rather lose fairly then win unfairly. I think people have forgotten about GP, which is a bit of a pity. My thoughts.
=/
My team isn't going to Championships.
-.-
thefro526
11-04-2010, 16:39
If I may speak a bit bluntly here, if you don't want someone to take the top seed in this division then go out on the field and play your heart out. All of this discussion about how to keep an elite team from seeding at the top through less than honest means is disgusting. If I were ever with a team that purposely threw a match to control the distribution of seeding points to prevent another team from seeding well, I think I would try my absolute hardest to ensure that the offending team did not get selected for an Alliance.
Anyway, it's not like these elite teams can't be beaten. The hype surrounding them makes them huge targets for defense, not to mention that teams work harder to beat them so that they can take pride in their victory.
I've told my Driver on numerous occasions to not get caught up in the "hype" surrounding a select few teams in this divisions as to not cloud his judgement. He and I both know the absolutely devastating results that could come out of certain alliances, so there's no point in talking about it. If we do go up against some super-crazy-awesome powerhouse Alliance of two of the best teams in FIRST then we'll play it like any other: Play Smart, Drive Effectively, and attempt to out strategize them. At a certain point in time, we know that this is all we can do, because we will never let a match compromise our values.
Also, if possible, can we remember that there are other teams in this Division than the two that seem to draw the most attention? I don't mean to sound like a jerk or anything but, I'm really tired of hearing about the same two teams and I think a lot of people are too.
delsaner
11-04-2010, 16:56
My team isn't going to Championships.
-.-
My apologies. I assumed your team was, since you were on this thread talking strategy, sorry about that. I was not beating down on you, I was agreeing with Andrew and Karthik.
Monty Python
11-04-2010, 17:02
At what point does a strategy go from being honest and valid in an attempt to win to dishonest and sneaky? I'm not necessarily condoning or repudiating this strategy, and while I would never use this strategy, that stems first and foremost from a belief that throwing a match is never strategically in your best interest (as well as ethical concerns obviously).
You are playing to win, that much is obvious. Beating a team does hurt them, though beating another team is completely legitimate. If a strategy puts your team in the best position to win and is within the rules of the competition, why can't you use it? So maybe throwing a match is too far (as I feel it is), what about the 469 autonomous that there was a thread on a few days back? Is attempting to "sabatoge" another team through the use of an autonomous specifically targeted at them legitimate? What about defense (especially the aggressive type that can occasionally break robots). And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't tipping other robots legal in the past? At what point does a strategy intended to win a tournament go from legitimate and fair to inherently evil?
Oh and in case it wasn't obvious, I feel that 469 built one of the most creative, innovative, and amazing robots in FIRST history. It blows me away how awesome their robot is, and they deserve all the credit in the world.
If you want to win play your best. It's that simple.
Kyler386
11-04-2010, 17:16
Team 386 wishes everyone good luck in Curie. We are also excited because we are finally not in Archimedes like we are every year.
fuzzy1718
11-04-2010, 17:27
To quote a very influencial person in FIRST who shall not be named in case he implodes again, "We strive for excellence in everything we do. Even if that means doing something that others view as un-GP. It all depends on your perspective of the event." This quote is from a discussion about the scoring system this year. So if the same logic is applied here what is the differance between scoring against yourself and drawing penalties? If your goal is to give yourself the best shot at taking the division what is the differance? Talk about ethical dilemas this year.
On a side note I don't care either way in the current discussion, I see both sides and know that either way you lose. GP un-GP, it doesn't matter all that people remember at the end of the day is who was in what postition, not why or how they got their.
P.S. Travis Hoffman is my hero for founding the little guy party!:D
Chris is me
11-04-2010, 18:16
To quote a very influencial person in FIRST who shall not be named in case he implodes again, "We strive for excellence in everything we do. Even if that means doing something that others view as un-GP. It all depends on your perspective of the event." This quote is from a discussion about the scoring system this year. So if the same logic is applied here what is the differance between scoring against yourself and drawing penalties? If your goal is to give yourself the best shot at taking the division what is the differance? Talk about ethical dilemas this year.
Simple. Score against yourself and you help everyone. Throw every qual you have with 1114 and 469 and you're destroying everyone's seeding score.
I would hope that no one seriously equates this idea as just another way to strive for excellence. It's like saying if you poison the opposing football team, you're just trying to strive for excellence.
The end of that statement is the key. "Be excellent in everything you do and the results will just happen". Don't be so obsessed with the result that you throw out FIRST's core values.
I'm going to draw a comparison here to something that happened in Finals at GTR 2009.
1114/2056/2185 had just been upset by 188/610/1305 in Finals 1. 610's shooter was broken, and a timeout called. Stuff happened, and 610's shooter was still broken. At the end of the timeout, 188 did not make it back to the field in time, and it was ruled that Finals 2 would be played without 188 on the field. 188's field coach very quickly came up with (IMO) a brilliant strategy. They began to score on themselves. I noticed this from the stands literally seconds into the match, and immediately picked up on what they were doing. They determined that they would not stand a chance up against 1114/2056/2185 playing 3 on 2, so they decided to try and force the double G14 to remove all of the super cells that the red alliance would have access to for Finals 3. In the end, the red alliance picked up on what was happening, and only took a single G14. The red alliance then went on to win the regional in Finals 3 by a margin of 7 points, scoring one of the super cells they would not have had if the strategy used in Finals 2 had been fully successful.
Was this un-GP? I don't think so, I think its creatively using the rules to gain yourself the best advantage from a crappy situation. I view playing this year's game 6v0 in much the same light. I don't however, think that out and out sabotage of 1114 or 469 should be acceptable. I don't want to beat them because I'm better at lawyering the rules. I want to beat them by winning the game, the right way.
I'm not one to be afraid to use the rules and how they're written to my advantage. I was quite pleased by my team (under my recommendation) playing WAT Q51 6v0, posting a 24-0 loss, and moving us up the standings to 8th seed. The balance of the qualifications played out and we sunk to 9th seed, to later become the 6th alliance captain.
When you are a part of an alliance, be it elimination or qualifying, The three teams involved are one team, and must play, win, and lose as such. To do anything else would be downright disturbing.
If you were a second-string football player, would you injure your own team's starter in order to give yourself a chance to shine? That's just about what you're doing here.
Strive for excellence in everything you do, but also recognize it in others when you see it, rather than try to drag it down.
DonRotolo
11-04-2010, 19:23
We're now at the point where people are suggesting and advocating that teams throw matches to hurt their alliance partners. Out of the box strategy is one thing, sabotage is another. I'm speechless.I think the discussion is more hypothetical.
There is indeed a simple strategy to "break up" some imagined super-alliance (isn't there at least one each year?): Just out-play them. :ahh:
Tarzan19
11-04-2010, 20:05
I think we need to get off the subject of how to beat other teams or how talking about how to beat other teams is bad in some sense. I am guessing there are threads for that. This thread is for the Curie division of the First Robotics Championship. Lets get back to talking about how awsome this division is going to play out and how intense the qualifying and elimination matchs are going to be.
Mr. Pockets
11-04-2010, 21:19
There's something about the human psyche that loves to push the rules. To find that one genius little trick to wiggle past some daunting wall carries with it a subtle pleasure, if a bit of a misguided one. Competitions are really good a calling out these desires, especially at such a high level.
I love FRC, and to imagine it without a feel of competitiveness is impossible. That desire to win must be present, it possesses (and consequently never fails to utilize) the ability to draw out the best qualities and ideas from those participating. At the same time though we can't totally forget about our principles in the excitement. There is a very fine line between competitiveness and spite.
-my $0.02
I think we need to get off the subject of how to beat other teams or how talking about how to beat other teams is bad in some sense. I am guessing there are threads for that. This thread is for the Curie division of the First Robotics Championship. Lets get back to talking about how awsome this division is going to play out and how intense the qualifying and elimination matchs are going to be.Agreed. I really hope that I have the opportunity to catch a bit of the action via webcast. I've never seen globals before, and it'd be a real treat to see the best at work.
1379 will be there and is glad to welcome everyone into our backyard! :)
I hope every team plays their hearts out to play the game as it should be played. If a team is better, then so be it. They deserve to enjoy it. We will be remembering and talking about this year for a long time to come. It is possibly the best year I have experienced. Let us not ruin it.
In an attempt to divert the conversation away from "469 & 1114"....Lets say another team IS a #1 seed, and they earned it (with a little luck). If they pick 1114 (accept), then does the #1 seed beat 469 and the next best robot?
As an example: Would 1114 & 2056 (not in curie but has a history with 1114) beat 469 and the next best bot in Curie?
I hope every team plays their hearts out to play the game as it should be played. If a team is better, then so be it. They deserve to enjoy it. We will be remembering and talking about this year for a long time to come. It is possibly the best year I have experienced. Let us not ruin it.
In an attempt to divert the conversation away from "469 & 1114"....Lets say another team IS a #1 seed, and they earned it (with a little luck). If they pick 1114 (accept), then does the #1 seed beat 469 and the next best robot?
As an example: Would 1114 & 2059 (not in curie but has a history with 1114) beat 469 and the next best bot in Curie?
I assume you mean 2056? This is all really a matter of strategy, and how well the robots fit that strategy. If the 1114 alliance can get good defense on 469 once they get into the tunnel, then all is not lost, because the other alliance members may or may not be able to pick up the slack. On the other hand, 469 may not even have good scorers that will get the balls in the loop in the first place. There's too little real information to actually answer your question.
I assume you mean 2056? This is all really a matter of strategy, and how well the robots fit that strategy. If the 1114 alliance can get good defense on 469 once they get into the tunnel, then all is not lost, because the other alliance members may or may not be able to pick up the slack. On the other hand, 469 may not even have good scorers that will get the balls in the loop in the first place. There's too little real information to actually answer your question.
I am not looking for an exact statistical analysis. Opinions and intuition. I guess it comes down to can 1114 or a potential partner defend 469? I think 1114 can sucessfully defend 469 and their partners can score 2v1 sucessfully the other way. Is this crazy?
sircedric4
12-04-2010, 09:24
I think this thread has adequately covered the 469 and 1114 angle, but seeing as this is the Curie thread I would like to hear about the other 80+ teams in our division.
Why don't you advertise your own capabilities, what trials you have overcome, what changes you had to make to your robot because the game didn't play like you expected? I get more values from these types of threads when I hear the teams advertise what they are good at, own up to the things they are not so good at, and tell stories of how they overcame issues to better their robot.
I really like it when one team talks about another team, because it means that a team has been noticed and not just disappeared through the cracks. I would just like to turn the thread into a better place to read then the bashing and harsh strategies being battered around to shut down 2 teams out of 80+.
I'd kick things off, but I would like to see if the rest of the thread posters like this idea first and not derail the thread if you guys are adamant about continuing with the 2 team out of 80+ discussion.
1075 has made some relatively major design changes at each of our competitions. Between WAT and GTR, we dropped our DS Swerving, and top bar hanger, for a more reliable drivetrain and vertical bar hanger. Now for CMP we've vastly improved our ball possessor such that we wont spend time caught up on balls, but rather, scoring them.
Steve Compton
12-04-2010, 10:36
I just want to throw the other side of the coin to most of the posts in this thread. I know that this might seem like I'm trying to sway people to play differently than most of the posts above, but I just wanted to air it...
There are a lot of good teams in this division. Maybe it doesn't have the "star power" of the other divisions, but it's still very strong. Also, with the number of teams, and number of matches, the chance of getting in a qualification match with a top scoring team (either for or against) is low.
Remember, there are no wins and losses in qualification matches, only points. The only difference is that the alliance that scores more points gets two bonuses: 2x their opponent score and the 5 pt bonus.
If you want to seed well, you need to score as many points in every match you play as you possibly can. By scoring points, and seeding high, you can even control your own destiny by being in the top eight.
So, if that is your mindset, you might want to think about using your match with or against a top team to get a huge score and boost your seeding place. No, I'm not saying 6v0...although that is an option. I'm just saying that if you are lucky to get in 2 or 3 matches with a good scoring robot, those 30, 40, or 50 point matches will do a lot to getting you high into the rankings.
Furthermore, I believe that the third robot as a good striker is very important. We had a great striker in MSC and it won it for us. I will more likely take notice of the robots that go out every match and even just push in 6-8 balls per match than the robot that went out and (IMHO) didn't play the game very smart for qualifications and played defense the whole time. This causes both alliances to get a low score, which in qualification matches IS against the spirit of the game due to how the GDC has the scoring system this year... So even if you "win", you drop in rankings.
I know I'm going to have to put my flame suit on because a lot of you are going to take this as me trying to change how everyone plays against us so we can pair up with so-and-so...that's why I rarely (never) post in threads like this...
But, I honestly believe that if all of you focus so much on a few teams, and how to stop them, you are just going to hurt your chances to do well at the World Championships. It takes 24 robots and 8 alliances and 8 captains to play Saturday afternoon. Be one of those captains!
Hey Don,
Good to hear from you! I've been impressed by how remarkably constrained your kids have been in responding to the immense number of posts made about you and others this year. We've spent some time with our own kids talking about your robot, not to design ways to beat you but rather to underscore what creativity and innovation and out-of-the-box thinking can do. Of course we have develop strategies and counterstrategies, but that's not the point. We look to thinking through your design logic as foundational work for next year's build.
What you wrote about seeding points is clear and sensible, and I might even suggest that a well-balanced alliance would have a response strategy to implement that takes this into account mid-match, once they see how they are faring.
In any case, we here at 1391 look forward to playing with or against you - regardless of outcomes your robot this year leads to more thinking by all the kids, and that's got to be a good thing.
Steve
thefro526
12-04-2010, 10:41
Why don't you advertise your own capabilities, what trials you have overcome, what changes you had to make to your robot because the game didn't play like you expected? I get more values from these types of threads when I hear the teams advertise what they are good at, own up to the things they are not so good at, and tell stories of how they overcame issues to better their robot.
This is a pretty cool idea.
Basically, 816 is a near zone striker this year. We have a basic 8WD with AM Plaction wheels, driven with 4 Cims through AM Toughboxes, geared for about 13 feet per second. We're built to be a tunnel bot, though we can climb the bump if needed. We have a pneumatic kicker capable of kicking over one bump that we rarely ever use. We also have a Ball Pincher that is capable of grabbing a ball and holding onto it extremely well.
We were a finalist in New Jersey with 2016 and 422 and were able to give 25 their only lose of the season. During our elimination stint in New Jersey we scored about 80% of the Ball points for our alliance by playing Striker. We also were the number 8 alliance captain in Philadelphia and managed to push our quarter final round with the Number 1 seed to 3 matches.
We play in a way that we're the perfect compliment to two decent all around robots, or even one good mid-fielder. We specialize in clearing out our home zone and scoring throughout the entire match up to the buzzer. Our motto is "If you can get the balls in our zone we'll score them". Depending on the amount of balls in the home zone we will either score a single ball at a time or score a large group of balls in and instant, we've actually scored 4 in one push, which ended up jamming the goal... Lol.
Throughout the season we've been plagued with reliably issues with our control system. We had issues with our USB Hub in New Jersey that we resolved for Philly, we broke a pin on our cRio in Philly, and We also shorted some PWMs in Philly aswell.
For the Championship we're revising our Ball Possessor once again so that it's less likely to carry balls and we're also going to add some new Autonomi so we're not forced to start in the Near Zone.
Don Wright
12-04-2010, 10:47
Hey Don,
Good to hear from you! I've been impressed by how remarkably constrained your kids have been in responding to the immense number of posts made about you and others this year.
Thanks Steve... We find, unfortunately, that posting on CD these days usually gets our posts turned against us so we would rather our students share our robot in person at events so please stop by and talk to them in our pit. They will be more than happy to share everything with anybody...
See everyone in 56 hours...
Don
JaneYoung
12-04-2010, 10:58
Strive for excellence in everything you do, but also recognize it in others when you see it, rather than try to drag it down.
Wisdom.
Steve Compton
12-04-2010, 11:09
I won't try to explain or explain away too much of our season, but maybe a bit. Been doing this for eight years as a mentor, first with an inner city team I founded as a teacher there, and now with 1391. Our virtually all-rookie team this year came together as a unit - in terms of ingenuity and confidence and capability - in ways that were remarkable to me. Best year I've ever had with a team.
Our robot - we can kick (and usually score) all balls from any zone in autonomous. We have an interesting drive base with a combination of plactions-on-pods for both high traction and maneuverability over the bump and omnis on the other end for high mobility. Even though we can push with the best of them we can also fine-scale our movement for precision driving. Our kicker is dial-adjustable to any force required and set by operator continually during the match, so if a short ball move is best, we do it, but if sending it 30 feet in the air is a good idea, we do that. We swapped out drivers after our first regional, and the new guy is the best driver I've ever had - a real sense of how to work the robot well and a very cool head - clearly not fazed by pressure or noise or anything else - he remains in the zone regardless. End game we consistently hang on any of the the vertical bars in 'strongman' fashion, and at our second competition the 2 times we did not do this was because it wasn't in the alliance strategy - we had other roles to play during endgame. At Drexel, we were in the seventh alliance against the eventual regional winner, and without a doubt the first match was simply the most total domination of a high alliance by a low alliance I have ever seen - all three of our alliance robots worked well together and my kid/robot in defense completely shut done two very high scorers working simultaneously in their offensive zone - he was a defensive maniac. We won 10-3 (all of their balls I believe were scored in auton.) Second match we suffered a failure of our power control board of all things - nothing we could either engineer against during the build nor see coming. We were winning the second match when this happened and, dead on the field, our alliance lost that match by a close margin. third match, even after fixes, checks and double checks, the same disaster struck again (we could not swap out the PD board but thought we had managed a work-around.) Lost that too. I believe we could have done quite well without the PD crapping out on us - it's been solved and we're ready to go in this event.
Good luck to all and hope each of us gets what we're looking for from the event - we're shooting to win the whole thing, as I bet we all hope to do!
thefro526
12-04-2010, 11:15
I can vouch for Steve Compton's post above.
1391 had an exceptional autonomous in Philadelphia, I remember them consistently kicking balls from the far zone in Autonomous during the Eliminations. They also hung very well, and I don't really ever remember them struggling to hang like some teams.
Alpha Beta
12-04-2010, 11:40
Team Titanium is very excited to be at The Championship Event for the 2nd year in a row.
Last year we won our first Chairman’s Award at the 10,000 Lakes Regional, and this year we won our first Regional Championship at the North Star Regional with 2667 and 71.
Our programming is entirely student led, and our mechanical design is a tight collaboration between engineering mentors and a dedicated core of students. This is our first year with a swerve drive system. If you are considering this type of drive train for the future come on by the pits and snap some pictures. We have a display model in our pit that anyone can look at even when the robot is not available. We took a ton of pictures at last years Championship Event, and it proved an incredible resource as we designed our own variation. We are thrilled with the results in this year’s game.
The robot has scored 3 from the back or 2 from the mid in auto on multiple occasions. We have auto for the front, but have never found ourselves starting in that position. We are open to the idea if it makes sense for the strategy of our alliance. We cross the bump with a delicate grace, and have a variable kicker capable of blasting through the chains or dribbling a shot up the scoring ramp. We have an effective ball control mechanism on a rocking arm which signals to the driver when a ball has been possessed. The top of our robot effectively dampens the ball coming off of the return rack and efficiently returns it to the playing surface where our ball control and kicking mechanisms can put it on target. We score effectively from all three zones. We play in a wide orientation. There is plenty of video on TBA of both the KC Regional and North Star.
The camera is on board, and software has been written to make use of it, but our drivers have developed enough touch over our 2 regionals to not depend upon this feature.
We choose not to hang this year, thinking that in the time it takes to hang we could surely score an equivalent number of balls. Many times that has turned out to be an accurate assumption for us, although we have been impressed with the speed and consistency with which many teams complete the hang.
Our team has a personal approach to Gracious Professionalism that can be summed up in the following statement.
“Gracious Professionalism: As an individual I will invest in people first, thus forming a team, and as a team we will solve the problems of the day. When the combined efforts of the team create surplus time, knowledge, or perhaps even materials we shall share that with other teams, creating worthy adversaries in the field of competition. If through those contributions to others my team looses I will take pride in knowing I was a part of great ideas coming to fruition. I will expend no energy in trying to make my team appear better by tearing down others, or withholding resources from those in need. If inferior products win because better ideas were suppressed I have done the greater community a terrible disservice. Instead I will learn to be better, and when my team wins I will step up and recognize that it was probably because other people helped us along the way too.”
In this spirit we have used our Guitar Hero Robot to raise some funds with which we have purchased a wide variety of nuts, bolts, and other fasteners to share with other teams. If you find yourself in need of something come on by our pit and we will share what we have. This offer is extended to everyone whether you beat us in a previous round, are a potential alliance partner, or not even on our scouts top 40. We are here to help every robot perform at its best on the field.
It is also within our understanding of Gracious Professionalism to celebrate the accomplishments of others as well as our own. We hope that the best alliance from Curie makes it on to Einstein. We have every intention of being on that alliance. Last year we were shocked in Archimedes when 1114, 2056, and 503 were upset in the semi-finals to (IMHO) a superior strategy. It takes great robots, pit crews, drive teams, scouts, and alliance strategies to win. We plan to bring all of that to the table as well as an intense competitive spirit.
I am thrilled to see this thread turn its focus to the immensely talented and deep field at Curie. Many of you have been an inspiration to our team in person, on the field and through your posts on Chief Delphi. Should you meet us on an opposing alliance you will receive our best effort to maximize our seeding score. And if you meet us in the stands or in the pits we hope to be able to call you friend and colleague and exchange ideas and resources to make both of our teams better.
farm3rboy101
12-04-2010, 14:51
Ahhh! Only 2 days before everything starts! I would like to wish all the teams on Curie and the other divisons good luck this year!
Go FIRST!
JaneYoung
12-04-2010, 16:17
I sure hope you folks don't need much spirit help in Atlanta - your emcee is going to want to hear some noise, I guarantee. :)
MADAME...
Andrew Schreiber
12-04-2010, 16:19
Curie!
Come on folks, I need some help.
maverickfan138
12-04-2010, 20:55
CURIE!
I guess I'll be the spokesperson for 573.
This year, we decided to go with simplicity and also high(er) scores. Our robot is a tunnel bot with a four wheel independent tank drive bot with mechanums powered by four cims with AM Toughbox transmissions. Our kicker is a roller with a paddle attached which stays inside our frame zone for constant kicking. The kicker runs the width of our robot and gives us the ability to kick many balls in a short amount of time. We are a highly aggressive offense robot and are very flexible with how we play the game. Although we like to start in the far zone, we can start in any zone and score. We can also be an efficient feeder and an efficient striker.
Being a team from Michigan, we faced some of the best in the world. We won the Ann Arbor District Competition with 2337 and 66(not in Curie, but can't be forgotten). At the Troy District event, we were semi finalists and at the Michigan State Championship, we were the fifth seed alliance with a seeding score of 327. This year has been one of our most successful years and we look to continue that success in Curie and hopefully on Einstein.
Also, since I'm sure some people would be interested in photos, here are some photos of our robot:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/Rollerdude/Other/TroyAthens2010065.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/Rollerdude/Other/AnnArbor2010044.jpg
(photos taken by myself)
We're excited for Atlanta, and can't wait until Wednesday night when we arrive. We look forward to seeing everybody down there. Be sure to stop by our pit to say hi, because I know I'll be going from pit to pit making friends. Also, if any teams need anything, just ask us. We'll be more than willing to lend a few tools or parts. We also have some excellent programmers, electricians, and other hardworking members who will be more than happy to help out.
See you there!
Also, since I'm sure some people would be interested in photos, here are some photos of our robot:
Your robot is awesome but you are not giving everyone the full picture.....orange hair and man skirts.....we need pics :)
maverickfan138
12-04-2010, 23:03
Silly me! How could I forget about those photos. Actually, here's one of the entire alliance skirted up for Ann Arbor:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/Rollerdude/Other/AnnArbor2010012.jpg
The skirts, orange hair, bandanas, knee high socks, and anything else we can think of will be worn down in Atlanta, so no worries ;)
Andrew Schreiber
12-04-2010, 23:07
Just gonna say, thanks... I could have done without EVER seeing Clinton in a kilt ... now you just had to remind me... You sir, owe me a lunch cuz I just lost mine. ;)
Clinton Bolinger
12-04-2010, 23:26
HEY, I make that man skirt LOOK GOOD!
You never know, you may see me in another skirt on Curie.
-Clinton-
Well, if we're telling stories, I might as well join in! Be prepared for a wall of text, but I swear it's a good story.
Our hours and hours of brainstorming at Kettering, the day of kickoff, was a great success. We made our most major design decisions there, and our robot was designed off of those ideas. Most things were a bit down from there. What sort of ball control? How will we hang? Will we suspend? Too much weight? What type of kicker (mini das boot?)? Many of the problems were only solved near the end of build season, which we ended with about 1.5 robots, most of a main robot and about half of a practice bot.
At Kettering District, it showed. Our ball control wasn't great, the hanger needed some serious work. Despite that, we played many good, hard matches. Our great drivers kept us in it, playing strong defense. When we finally hung on Saturday, I think almost everyone was cheering in the stands, it was a great moment. We nearly got the first suspension, in week one. Given about 5 more seconds, team 1322 and we would have been front page news in FIRST, a week 1 suspension; however, it was not to be. I must say we were a bit lucky to be selected for the eliminations. We played good matches with good partners (thanks Teams 1 and 1243!) against good opposition, and fell to the #1 alliance in the semifinals. I consider this event a great success. Our hanger worked, our kicker was good, if the ball control needed work. We also showed that defense could be a game-changer.
Ann Arbor was different. We went in knowing we should succeed, and there was pressure on us. We played plenty of very good matches, finally scoring some good goals from the midfield, consistently hanging. For the second straight event, we nearly got the first suspension in the nation, as team 1684 just barely missed our suspension bar. Again, unfortunate. Ranked fourth, we were selected by #3 team, as the #2 alliance (thanks 573 and 66!). There were some truly great moments in those elimination matches. Finals, match 3 could have gone either way. In the end, it was 573's clincher scoring, and our hanging that won the match. Team 2337's first blue banner! It was great. We had high hopes going into MSC.
The Michigan State Championship.. Said to be more competitive than a division at the Championship (well.. probably not).. We knew it would be a challenge, playing against some of the greatest teams in the world. We certainly played well when we had power. Despite losing comms for two matches, we played a very solid match against one of the only few other midfield specialists, team 469. We had a breakthrough here, our robot was hot, scoring balls, hanging almost every match, winning despite difficult matches and better alliances. We also debuted our ball deflector here, and it was as successful as we thought it would be.
Then, qualifications match 80. Getting pushed around, 20 seconds on the clock. With 18 left, we hit the bar, a huge clang. As one person in the pits said, "I was checking my FRC Spyder app for rankings when I hear a "whack!" Which, of course I just think 'oh, Enginerds are up.'" But there was more, as we moved above the platform, team 2959 moved forward, their hooks sprang to our bar, hooked on, and they pulled themselves up. The pits emptied as the stadium exploded. Michigan's first suspension. All our work to make it possible had finally paid off. And better yet, we won the match because it worked.
It was a great match, when we had a breakthrough in match 88. As balls were quickly cleared into the near zone, we saw our alliance scoring heavily, and decided to try exactly what the ball deflector was made for. halfway through the match, we hung and deflected balls into the near zone. Despite playing against defense, the partnership between us and team 910 was solid, and we scored 19 points in that match.
This led us into alliance selections, ranked 11th, hoping to be picked. As 8th alliance captain, we selected two teams that would be good partners. 2619, rivals from year 1 and the alliance captain we defeated in the finals at Ann Arbor, were our first pick. Then, 226, the Hammerheads, a quick, agile, scoring bot. We had our expectations in the quarterfinals, despite going up against the #1 alliance, led by 1918 and the dreaded 469. First match was so close, as we starved the red alliance of balls, but we finally fell 11-14, when a suspension that could have tied the game failed. Then, we got smoked in our next match, and our MSC was over.
And now we're here. Our ball control is fixed up. our hanger has been perfected. our suspension bar is itching to be used. Our ball deflector a veteran of the hardest official event outside of Atlanta. Our drivers, experienced against some of the greatest teams. Who knows where we may end up. As my sig says, Big Hopes.
Big wall of text is OVER.
Jen.Scharl
12-04-2010, 23:31
The skirts, orange hair, bandanas, knee high socks, and anything else we can think of will be worn down in Atlanta, so no worries ;)
Oh yes. Be prepared. :D
Andrew Schreiber
12-04-2010, 23:39
HEY, I make that man skirt LOOK GOOD!
You never know, you may see me in another skirt on Curie.
-Clinton-
Clinton, if 2337 takes Curie I will wear a skirt to work (573, if this happens, can I borrow a skirt?). (Yes, pics will be posted to CD to prove my embarrassment)
Jen.Scharl
12-04-2010, 23:59
Clinton, if 2337 takes Curie I will wear a skirt to work (573, if this happens, can I borrow a skirt?). (Yes, pics will be posted to CD to prove my embarrassment)
of course you can borrow one. who are we to stop a man from accessing his skirt? ;)
Akash Rastogi
13-04-2010, 01:06
Clinton, if 2337 takes Curie I will wear a skirt to work (573, if this happens, can I borrow a skirt?). (Yes, pics will be posted to CD to prove my embarrassment)
Embarrassment?
You know you'd love wearing it, Andrew.
.
GaryVoshol
13-04-2010, 07:29
Also, since I'm sure some people would be interested in photos, here are some photos of our robot:
Oh goody, a picture of me trying to get my ears working again. That sound was just way too high! It usually doesn't bother me that much, but when you sometimes can't even hear the field sounds ... :ahh:
Fireworks 234
13-04-2010, 07:58
1747 is looking forward to the challenge of putting up some stellar defense as well as scoring some goals :yikes:
We've got some work to put in to find out why our robot isn't communicating with the field but works fine on tether...
Anyway, we can't wait to see you all there in less than 36 hours :eek:
sircedric4
13-04-2010, 08:06
Well since everyone decided it would be best to tell good stories then I will tell everyone a little about our robot and season. I am happy to see the thread turn around to a more gracious place.
We are a smaller team in Louisiana and this is our second year. We went to the Champs last year off a Rookie All Star award. This year we could only afford to go to the Bayou, our local regional, but we did win the regional which was cool. My fellow mentor and I have been doing this 5 years now and this is our first blue banner.
We were a first week regional, and got to be the guinea pig which led to the awesome update 16. Our regional had one of those teams that hadn't passed inspected at all yet and was still being seeded 6th. So many of the robots at the Bayou could hardly score. With that history you can imagine how disappointed we were when we showed up with a looper bot.
So our robot is a looper bot, with the ability to lock to the tower. We have a secondary multipowered kicker and vacuum possessing system. We did have a climb system as well but we lost it prior to the regional due to weight. With that weight off and after moving our battery at the Bayou we are now capable of crossing the bumps. We have an autonomous capable of starting and emptying the balls in any one zone. We can score from middle and front position in automous and were doing so reliably with our alliance partners during elimination matches.
Our biggest disappointment at our Regional was actually having to win the games we played as a scorer bot using our vesatile kicker. We had hoped to be able to setup on the tower and play infinite loop, but there wasn't anyone we were teamed up with that could score reliably enough while defended. (being a first week, none of the students understood defense in qualifiers wasn't the optimum way to play so defense was very hard on all sides the whole regional) We are so looking forward to a much deeper Curie division so that we can see how our looper performs in action.
We did get to use our looper one time during the finals at the Bayou, and that was a good thing because we learned that there is some serious variation in the ball speed coming off the tower. The one time we tried it, the ball we tried to loop was so fast that it bumped off our top bar. We went back and checked tape, and that was of course the fastest ball the entire weekend, being nearly 70% faster than the average. (Murphy's Law is still in effect it seems) It was a good thing to know, since we have a "poptop" we'll be adding for Atlanta so that we catch even the statistical outliers.
I am including two GIF files from our website showing our designed capability, and the link in my signature goes to a page with GIFs of our robot in live action at the Bayou for anyone who wants to see our capabilities. Curie looks like its going to be a fun division and we look forward to playing some good games.
http://team2992.com/images/Tower%20Lock.gif
http://team2992.com/images/Ball%20Kick.gif
Clinton, if 2337 takes Curie I will wear a skirt to work (573, if this happens, can I borrow a skirt?). (Yes, pics will be posted to CD to prove my embarrassment)
Jen, get me one too! If 2337 takes Curie, it'll be the garage sale all over again. :D (Ryan and I in skirts with me in ill-fitting high heels... Not a great mix. And NO, I will not post those pictures!)
Mori1578
13-04-2010, 09:40
Will there be a webcast of curie anywhere?
I really want to see it :)
Good luck to all teams!
thefro526
13-04-2010, 09:59
Will there be a webcast of curie anywhere?
I really want to see it :)
Good luck to all teams!
When the webcast goes live, you should be able to find it here:
http://robotics.arc.nasa.gov/events/2010_frcwebcasts.php
i guess it's story time :)
Our robot has mecanum drive with 12:1 gearboxes on each wheel, driven by a set of bevel gears. We have a working suspension on our robot, so the flexibility of the floor at champs shouldn't be an issue (Good luck to everyone with 6" mechs and no suspension!).
The front and back of our robot has polycarb shaped into a plow so that we can push balls from either end. In the center of our robot we have a simple slide mechanism that lods and locks the kicker (in one step!). When released, our kicker can kick over the bump, or into the goal. We have made a couple of changes and soon should be able to shoot over both bumps.
On the sides of the robot, between the legs we have strung two sets of bungee cords so that balls do not go within our robot.
On the top of our robot we have a large polycarb hood that will not allow a ball to rest on it, the hood also has another surprise, but you'll have to stop by our pit to see that ;)
We went to two regionals.
At Peachtree, we seeded 15th overall, got picked by the #8 alliance and lost in QF. We won the GM Industrial Design Award.
At Palmetto we were seeded in 1 through 3 the entire time and ended up as the #2 alliance captains. We lost in SF due to many sudden problems (you know how those pop up in elims). We won the Judge's Award, as they put it for "general awesomeness".
any qestions and all that, feel free to message me, i'm on CD most everyday!
Embarrassment?
You know you'd love wearing it, Andrew.
.
As a proud contemporary kilt wearer (check my avatar) there is nothing embarrasing about a man in a skirt/kilt/unbifurcated garment.
Gary Dillard
13-04-2010, 18:27
When the webcast goes live, you should be able to find it here:
http://robotics.arc.nasa.gov/events/2010_frcwebcasts.php
That's what I thought too, but FIRST has posted a different link:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/robotics/
O'Sancheski
13-04-2010, 20:24
its gunna be great... i will be one of your field reseters for the champs... i just can't wait to see 469 and 1114
And for those of you that haven't seen it already, here is Looking Forward's Curie Prediction (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=85216)!
Tarzan19
14-04-2010, 17:00
team 2345 has arrived in atlanta and is ready to play the game at the best of our ability. Good luck to everybody because it is going to be and intense few days of amazing competition. Have Fun.
Max.Shawe
14-04-2010, 21:47
I smell several upsets on the horizon....
Travis Hoffman
14-04-2010, 22:39
Curie Q Match 100: 1114, 231, 288 vs. 469, 888, 111
I bet that one will be interesting to watch.
XaulZan11
14-04-2010, 23:59
Curie Q Match 100: 1114, 231, 288 vs. 469, 888, 111
I bet that one will be interesting to watch.
Where did you find this information?
if someone is seeing this who can change the angle of the camera, please change it or zoom out or something! you can only see the top third of the field and not even the goals.
Ryan Caldwell
15-04-2010, 14:05
Interesting match results so far...can't wait to see how it all pans out.
Ian Curtis
15-04-2010, 15:58
Nice job 1511, 2775, and 175! Three robots hanging!
smurfgirl
15-04-2010, 16:26
The Curie matches have been very exciting so far! I'm also happy to see that my friends on 175 have been representing CT so well. :)
I knew it from the start, and so far everyone down there is proving me right that Curie is the Division of 2010.:D
Grim Tuesday
15-04-2010, 17:13
Wo! An upset on 469, their first defeat!
IT really proves that they need a good offense to start up their loop.
JamesBrown
15-04-2010, 17:53
Wo! An upset on 469, their first defeat!
469 has lost before.
Radical Pi
15-04-2010, 17:54
if someone is seeing this who can change the angle of the camera, please change it or zoom out or something! you can only see the top third of the field and not even the goals.
Agreed. The camera operators need to look at the big display. Also, I'd love to be able to see all of the field at once. Much more interesting to watch than a traffic jam in midfield
Grim Tuesday
15-04-2010, 18:02
469 has lost before.
LOl I just realized that. How about first defeat at championships?
After Qualification 43 ended , I checked FRC Spyder and saw that 469 was in 25, and as someone who has quickly become a fan of that team, I am a little bit shocked. I am crossing my fingers that they pull ahead with some more rounds tomorrow.
Edit: I started watching late and was going back and forth between divisions (even though I was watching mostly Curie) so if anyone found a good answer to why this is happening I would love to hear it.
LOl I just realized that. How about first defeat at championships?
We showed it to them in Q1 on Curie. 1075, 1676, 138 over 537, 469, 223. 8-7.
Grim Tuesday
15-04-2010, 19:52
They lost 2 matches. That is all. Their issue on the second one was that (no offense to their alliance partners, may you be reading), they were unable to start the loop. Even with the defending robot out of commission, only about 2 balls were scored by them. Furthermore, the offensive robot's autonomous got in the way of 469, and never ended up getting the balls that were moved to the zone in. I am, however, amazed to see 2169, with 0 regional wins under them leading the division. Just goes to show how wacky the seeding points system is.
I dont know what happened to the first one, though.
sircedric4
15-04-2010, 20:19
I know that we're a happy team right now. After an entire build season of effort and drive, we finally got to see our looper in action with some good alliance partners. We started in the opponent's home zone, kicked two balls out in autonomous, just barely missed the third ball, crossed the hump and headed over to our tower and deployed our looping design features.
We locked our handcuffs to the tower, deployed our drawbridge with deflector and deployed our poptop. We got a chance to loop 7 balls throughout the game and we are just so happy to see our design realized and for it to perform like we designed it. :-) We have seen our kicker and possessor work for 17+ games now but finally got to see the looper system work. Qualifier 32 is my favorite game of ours right now.
Curie is turning out to be a fun division and we are looking forward to day 2. Good luck to all out there.
O'Sancheski
15-04-2010, 20:34
I knew it from the start, and so far everyone down there is proving me right that Curie is the Division of 2010.:D
no... i think its going to be archimedes
no... i think its going to be archimedes
Honestly Archimedes is going in History as the Division of Champs this year (it does have 1124 in it, which is enough for me to say that about Archimedes :D) but for me personally, Curie has most of the teams I want to see expect for one or 2, and so far has given me the type of matches I want to see.
Grim Tuesday
15-04-2010, 21:05
I know that we're a happy team right now. After an entire build season of effort and drive, we finally got to see our looper in action with some good alliance partners. We started in the opponent's home zone, kicked two balls out in autonomous, just barely missed the third ball, crossed the hump and headed over to our tower and deployed our looping design features.
We locked our handcuffs to the tower, deployed our drawbridge with deflector and deployed our poptop. We got a chance to loop 7 balls throughout the game and we are just so happy to see our design realized and for it to perform like we designed it. :-) We have seen our kicker and possessor work for 17+ games now but finally got to see the looper system work. Qualifier 32 is my favorite game of ours right now.
Curie is turning out to be a fun division and we are looking forward to day 2. Good luck to all out there.
I watched that match, and loved it! Your looper is just so beautiful in action, with the curve!
thefro526
15-04-2010, 21:16
I think that Barry Bonzack should be announcer in Curie at least once. Just saying.
E.L.I.T.E. 48
15-04-2010, 22:01
I don't know, with all the attention on 1114 and 469 I have a feeling that someone is going to catch them by surprise. I don't know who or when, but it should be fun to watch as it plays out.
Good luck everyone
Grim Tuesday
15-04-2010, 22:49
I don't know, with all the attention on 1114 and 469 I have a feeling that someone is going to catch them by surprise. I don't know who or when, but it should be fun to watch as it plays out.
Good luck everyone
With 469 seeded in the high 20's, I think they may be out of the running for #1 seed.
I don't know, with all the attention on 1114 and 469 I have a feeling that someone is going to catch them by surprise. I don't know who or when, but it should be fun to watch as it plays out.
Good luck everyone
I guess that team is 2169 so far.
We'll get a clearer picture after today.
Ty Tremblay
16-04-2010, 11:51
With 469 seeded in the high 20's, I think they may be out of the running for #1 seed.
I haven't been able to watch the webcast yet. Can anyone tell me why 469 isn't seeding as high as expected? I know its early, and that things can change, but are teams playing more defense? Are they malfunctioning? Or are they just getting unlucky with their alliance partners?
I also know that, barring malfunctioning or an effective stopper strategy, it really doesn't matter where 469 seeds. As long as a strong offensive robot selects them, they'll go far.
I haven't been able to watch the webcast yet. Can anyone tell me why 469 isn't seeding as high as expected? I know its early, and that things can change, but are teams playing more defense? Are they malfunctioning? Or are they just getting unlucky with their alliance partners?
I've seen them having to pull out of looping position and play regular due to a lack of ammo a few times. Looks like they've run into some ball starvation D. Some of their alliance partners have also had bad matches.
Curie's had a lot of high scoring, close matches, so it's taking a lot of seeding points to get up in the top.
On the webcast the audio is sorta messed up for Curie right now :(
Grim Tuesday
16-04-2010, 16:10
Holy $@#$@#$@#$@#, did you see match 100?
1114+469 6V0
Vikesrock
16-04-2010, 16:11
1114 goes 6v0 in match 100 against 469 and they score 32 balls!
The human players couldn't quite keep up so the 469 alliance picked up 3 DOGMA penalties.
engunneer
16-04-2010, 16:11
Well match 100 was certainly interesting. 29-0 (after 3 penalties) in the first true 6v0 I've seen.
Wow.
32 scores intially, and a final score of 29!!!!! Amazing!!!! That for me was the match of the year.
Grim Tuesday
16-04-2010, 16:13
IT was hardly 6v0, it was pretty much just the blu alliance keeping out of the way :P
If that was a preview of the eliminations....that was a bit scary.....
32 scores intially, and a final score of 28!!!!! Amazing!!!! That for me was the match of the year.
Final score of 29 :P That's so insane. I wish I could have watched it (webcasts are giving me issues). Great job teams!
GearsOfFury
16-04-2010, 16:21
Surprising, and gracious, that Simbotics was willing to give up their no-loss 55-0-2 season for this match...! WOW!!!
Vikesrock
16-04-2010, 16:21
IT was hardly 6v0, it was pretty much just the blu alliance keeping out of the way :P
That's not really true. 4v0 may be more accurate but 1114 certainly scored quite a few goals and moved quite a few balls up. It may have looked like they weren't doing anything sometimes because they were being careful not to block any of 469's shots. They would wait for a gap, the plow the misses into the goal.
The other 2 blue robots were blocking their goals to assure the 0 for the red alliance.
Mark, the Simbotics wasn't doing that just to put on a show. They likely felt that they going 6v0 and getting a guaranteed ~30 pts. was the better move to help them seed high versus taking the chance of playing the match out against 111 and 469 and risking a much lower score if they lost.
Note I am just speculating on the above, I have no inside knowledge of 1114 strategy.
GearsOfFury
16-04-2010, 16:29
Totally agree, didn't mean to say they were just doing it for show. I just think they were doing pretty well in seeding without this match, and probably would still have ended up #1 or #2 with the way they were going - with the chance for maintaining a perfect season :)
That's not really true. 4v0 may be more accurate but 1114 certainly scored quite a few goals and moved quite a few balls up. It may have looked like they weren't doing anything sometimes because they were being careful not to block any of 469's shots. They would wait for a gap, the plow the misses into the goal.
The other 2 blue robots were blocking their goals to assure the 0 for the red alliance.
Mark, the Simbotics wasn't doing that just to put on a show. They likely felt that they going 6v0 and getting a guaranteed ~30 pts. was the better move to help them seed high versus taking the chance of playing the match out against 111 and 469 and risking a much lower score if they lost.
Note I am just speculating on the above, I have no inside knowledge of 1114 strategy.
While unless someone here can actually talk to 1114, we can only speculate, but I too agree that was more then likely their strategy.
It paid off, it defiantly put them higher up in the rankings, and while they did sacrifice their no loose score, sometimes to take it all you have to do something like that.
engunneer
16-04-2010, 18:42
Karthik is know for understanding all the ramifications of strategy. Having the two robots defend the blue goals is key to keep the winning team from defecting from any agreements.
Vikesrock
16-04-2010, 18:52
Karthik is know for understanding all the ramifications of strategy. Having the two robots defend the blue goals is key to keep the winning team from defecting from any agreements.
Again speculation, but judging by the actions of 888 trying to defend 1114 at the beginning of the match I'm not so sure this was the result of an agreement as much as it was a one-sided decision by the 1114 alliance.
Again speculation, but judging by the actions of 888 trying to defend 1114 at the beginning of the match I'm not so sure this was the result of an agreement as much as it was a one-sided decision by the 1114 alliance.
I think this was the case; if they worked it out ahead of time there would have been no reason to block blue goals because red would have likely agreed not to score on blue for the coopertition bonus. The reason being that if red were scoring for the coopertition bonus, theoretically it would be points they could score on themselves, thus deducting from 1114's alliance and their overall seeding points, which 1114's alliance likely wouldn't have agreed to in pre-match because then 469's alliace would get more than 5 more seeding points(assuming red wins, which was the plan on 1114's part regardless of whether it was talked out or not).
Dave Flowerday
16-04-2010, 19:27
Surprising, and gracious, that Simbotics was willing to give up their no-loss 55-0-2 season for this match...! WOW!!!
Curious, why do you say gracious? I have no problem with the strategy they employed, however, if you assume that the 1114 alliance likely would have lost even if they hadn't played 6v0* then what they did benefited them and "hurt" the 469/888/111 alliance, because each point that 1114 scored for their opponents was worth 1 point to everyone, while if they had scored for themselves it would have been worth 2 points to their opponents and 0 to themselves. So, if you say gracious implying that they were somehow helping out the 469/888/111 alliance, then I disagree. They were playing to maximize their own benefit, plain and simple (which, again, I have no problem with and would do the same thing in their shoes).
* I make the assumption that 1114 figured there was a reasonable chance they'd lose the match, because if they knew they could win then then they obviously would have played straight-up.
Grim Tuesday
16-04-2010, 19:39
I think that we need word from 1114 as what their intent was, and when they decided to use this strategy.
By your post, Dave Flowery, I assume that the 6v0 was not decided ahead of time.
Dave Flowerday
16-04-2010, 19:41
I think that we need word from 1114 as what their intent was, and when they decided to use this strategy.
I'm willing to bet their strategy is "get as many seeding points as possible so we can get to Einstein". What else would it be?
By your post, Dave Flowery, I assume that the 6v0 was not decided ahead of time.
I'm not in Atlanta and I haven't spoken with anyone on the team there today, so I have no idea if it was planned or not.
I think that we need word from 1114 as what their intent was, and when they decided to use this strategy.
By your post, Dave Flowery, I assume that the 6v0 was not decided ahead of time.
They must have deided ahead of time judging by their lack of autonomous...1114 wouldn't show up and not move in autonomous unless it was intentional.
Travis Hoffman
16-04-2010, 20:28
You want to know why 1114 locked down the goals? Look who is #2 and 5 points behind them in the standings - 469's partner in that match, 111. It seems to me they were ensuring that 111 didn't receive a 2x loser's score bonus to boost them relative to 1114's standing, other than the 5 point win bonus. Hmm, it appears that 1114 covets that #1 seed. I wonder why that is, perhaps? ;)
The talk post-Match 100 surely cements my beliefs in making the "interesting" post about this match in this thread a few days ago. There were too many teams who are known for strategerizationery involved in this match for some kind of traditional gameplan to occur.
In my opinion, this match does underscore the dorkiness of this coopertition model. And as always, the best teams came out ahead in the process at the expense of the 2nd tier teams. Even though they appeared to go along with the ploy, I truly wonder how good 288 and 231 felt about that *awesome* 29 points they received that did nothing to elevate them anywhere near the top 8, while they sat there doing nothing. Yee haw boy howdy, excitement on the Curie field.
I can't fault teams for doing what they can to legally work the system to their advantage, but I can fault the system for placing teams in situations where lame decisions such as these have to be made.
scessama
16-04-2010, 20:48
Man, Earthquakes all over the place, Volcanos and clouds of ashes, S&Ps down 25 pts! and now 1114 is first seed and going to probably pick 469... yep, id say the end of the world is near
Grim Tuesday
16-04-2010, 21:27
Man, Earthquakes all over the place, Volcanos and clouds of ashes, S&Ps down 25 pts! and now 1114 is first seed and going to probably pick 469... yep, id say the end of the world is near
LOL good way to put it!
I wonder what 1114 will pick second O___O
I wonder what 1114 will pick second O___O
If they don't want to disappoint it will be 469 but only time will tell.
I am curious to hear 281's and 288's side of the story of how this went down.
And for those who need to see this match...
www.vandenrobotics.com/Videos/cu_m100_hires.wmv
sircedric4
16-04-2010, 21:58
I watched that match, and loved it! Your looper is just so beautiful in action, with the curve!
I know the trend is to talk about match 100, but I am back into the hotel now and want to say thanks to the above quote. This has turned into an awesome second year experience.
It's funny, the announcer today compared our looper to a lounge chair during one of the games (and called the wrong team name for our number but its stressful so I'll give him some slack. It's Prometheus. LOL) and after looking at our video this evening I thought it does look like a lounge chair when in looper mode. It gives me ideas for off season fund raisers. :-)
Anyway, we got to deploy the looper another couple of times today and its been real fun. Curie is shaping up to be an exciting division.
Now that the exclaiming of our team's elation and fun is over I will return to your regularly scheduled match 100 commentary and state that I pretty well walked out of match 100 as soon as I saw what 1114 was doing. I was looking forward to that match all day to see how the different bots played when against each other, and was disappointed to see teams playing the stupid coopertition aspect versus playing hard that match.
I can't blame 1114 because its obvious they are going for that 1st seed hard, but I do blame the GDC for coming up with a qualification system that rewards lawyering and shenanigans versus rewarding fun, competitive game play. It turned what should have been a super exciting match into a joke, and if nothing I hope this will be the last year of coopertition. You should qualify the same way you eliminate if you ask me.
Good luck to all in Curie.
Grim Tuesday
16-04-2010, 22:00
I watched the match with the lawnchair (webcast, of course), and have been wanting to ask you guys since then:
How was the beer?
sircedric4
16-04-2010, 22:07
I watched the match with the lawnchair (webcast, of course), and have been wanting to ask you guys since then:
How was the beer?
Oh if only there was beer. :-) It would make the competition a lot more interesting for sure. But seeing as its about high schoolers we have to stick to fizzy and fruit drinks. LOL
I wish we would have thought of using a lawnchair, it would have made the construction a lot easier.
HeatherM
16-04-2010, 22:13
Just an ignorant Mom here, but could someone explain to me about match 110? Why did 1511 not get the 2 bonus points for a successful hang? At least from the web cast it looked high enough and in plenty of time. There was plenty of speculation about the red hang, but no discussion about 1511, so we thought it was a given, yet when final score was announced, no bonus for blue. ??
GearsOfFury
16-04-2010, 23:30
Curious, why do you say gracious?
It was a poor choice of words, I admit. I was trying to convey what a big deal it would be, at least to me, to give up a 'perfect' record for the strategy gambit. Perhaps this is better stated as the perfect embodiment of why the new system is less than desirable: decide that you will probably have a hard time winning, even though you've had a 'perfect' record so far in 3.5 events, and instead of "going for it", admit defeat and go for the strategy. Totally the best strategy, just made me sad to see the game go that way :/ Sorry for the poor choice of words.
And 111's last match may have just earned them a #1 seed on Curie... 1114 has to gain at least 30 seeding points to top Wildstang. Wow, that's strange. That was my 111th post!
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