Are Walkie Talkies Allowed at Championship

[jblay]

I was wondering if walkie talkies are allowed at championship. I recall in previous years they weren't legal but that might have been because of the old control system.

[Ahnxlazyman]

I'd like to know if bluetooth items are allowed near the field, I have a bluetooth microphone for my camera, and was thinking about putting it on one of the drivers or coaches for a behind the scenes audio track, hear what they're saying etc.

[EricH]

Section 3.17 still bars walkie talkies. You'd have to ask about the Bluetooth microphone, though.

[jblay]

Thanks, I guess I was just looking in the wrong place in the manual I couldn't find it. I am confused as to how walkie talkies would interfere with the new system seeing as it uses wifi.

[cbale2000]

What is interesting is that since FIRST switched to the new WLAN wireless setup and required all the robots radios (or rather, gaming adapters) to run on the 5GHz band, it would seem like there is little chance of direct interference from such devices (no more than you would get anyways at least).

For reference...


Robots and the field System

Use the 5GHz band on a WLAN

Bluetooth

Uses 2.402-2.480 GHz bands
Generally has VERY short range (max is 100 meters and only on the most high end bluetooth)

Walkie-Talkies

Use bands like 27 MHz, 400-500 MHz, and 900 MHz
Because these bands are public, chances are such signals are flying around whether FIRST likes it or not, they're simply not coming from FIRST teams (I can't count the number of times I've seen staff from the venue using them).

Other WLANs and computers

Almost all available WLANs use 2.4GHz band by default, many venues even have such networks active during events. Why is it a problem if teams use these for robot testing and/or scouting and such?

Cell Phones

Use many different bands ranging anywhere from 800MHz to 2690MHz
There's a TON of them, if you assume that even half of the people at a given event have a cell phone, and that for each team there's about 10+ people there (not always true but for example) then that's 200+ phones right there for a 40 team regional, and that's before visitors and volunteers!




I guess I've always wondered about the rational for some of the wireless rules FIRST imposes too. Frankly the way I see it is that it is almost impossible to go anywhere these days where these signals are not present. I can understand FIRST trying to keep traffic off of the band they are using (5GHz) but to restrict the use of other wireless signals that aren't even anywhere close to the same wavelength seems a bit silly to me (Granted I am not a professional in the realm of wireless communications, but I'm still pretty sure). There are so many signals already in effect, what difference is a few walkie-talkies, bluetooth mics, or WLANs going to make?

[/2cents]

[EricH]

Walkie-Talkies
Use bands like 27 MHz, 400-500 MHz, and 900 MHz
Because these bands are public, chances are such signals are flying around whether FIRST likes it or not, they're simply not coming from FIRST teams (I can't count the number of times I've seen staff from the venue using them).Right there. That's why we can't use them.

FIRST staff and venue staff have radios, operating on various frequencies and channels. Now, some random team accidentally gets onto, say, the FTA's channel or the Pit Admin's channel, or, worse, the channel used by the production folks. Can you imagine the rumor mill that could be triggered? I don't want to. And that's assuming they don't try to talk on the radio to the aforementioned people.

Basically, they want a communication link that can be used for official business between the pits (admin, inspection), the field (FTA, Field Supervisor, queuing), FIRST staff, and the production people without people that don't need to know listening in.

[Koko Ed]

I thought FIRST banned radios and cell phones from the field so you couldn't get additional coaching from someone in the stands.

[MooreteP]

I thought FIRST banned radios and cell phones from the field so you couldn't get additional coaching from someone in the stands.

Koko is Korrect.

[GaryVoshol]

I thought FIRST banned radios and cell phones from the field so you couldn't get additional coaching from someone in the stands.

Koko is Korrect.

True, but 3.17 bans walkie-talkies completely, not just for coaching.

FIRST staff and venue staff have radios, operating on various frequencies and channels. Now, some random team accidentally gets onto, say, the FTA's channel or the Pit Admin's channel, or, worse, the channel used by the production folks. Can you imagine the rumor mill that could be triggered? I don't want to. And that's assuming they don't try to talk on the radio to the aforementioned people.Several years ago the FLL team used walkie-talkies to communicate at events when needed. So the girls decided to use them to talk between cars as we traveled home from the event. They had a nice conversation with the Home Depot stocker as we passed by ...

[Daniel_LaFleur]

<SNIP>
Robots and the field System
Use the 5GHz band on a WLAN

<SNIP>

I guess I've always wondered about the rational for some of the wireless rules FIRST imposes too. Frankly the way I see it is that it is almost impossible to go anywhere these days where these signals are not present. I can understand FIRST trying to keep traffic off of the band they are using (5GHz) but to restrict the use of other wireless signals that aren't even anywhere close to the same wavelength seems a bit silly to me (Granted I am not a professional in the realm of wireless communications, but I'm still pretty sure). There are so many signals already in effect, what difference is a few walkie-talkies, bluetooth mics, or WLANs going to make?



The above is incorrect. The field and robots use 802.11n which is a dual band 2.4GHZ and 5GHZ band. Thus other WLANs, Bluetooth, and some cell phones can (and will) interfere with the field system (which is very tolerant of most interference).

FIRST has made all communications with the field illegal to avoid a competitive edge by having more information (from the stands?) given to the drivers.

Most field crews use walkie-talkies and thus need that form of communication left undesturbed by random chatter.

So what difference would a few walkie-talkies or bluetooth mics make? maybe none ... or maybe a lot. Thus the rules.

[Nawaid Ladak]

I thought FIRST banned radios and cell phones from the field so you couldn't get additional coaching from someone in the stands.

and that's why people use whiteboards.....

Wasn't there a update relating to this subject that came out recently? I think it was Update 20

[EricH]

and that's why people use whiteboards.....

Wasn't there a update relating to this subject that came out recently? I think it was Update 20
Wasn't 20. Also wasn't 17, 19, or 16. I think it was much earlier, but I was looking in the most recent edition of the Manual when I looked it up.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Thanks, I guess I was just looking in the wrong place in the manual I couldn't find it. I am confused as to how walkie talkies would interfere with the new system seeing as it uses wifi.

It is not a question of interference with the controls, it is a matter of having more than the allotted number of students in control of the robot. If a team were using wireless communications, they could make use of unlimited eyes in the stands.

[Ahnxlazyman]

alright so maybe it's best not to risk it.


I'll hold off from using the bluetooth microphone on the field. (even though I'm the one on the receiving end.)

[whytheheckme]

alright so maybe it's best not to risk it.


I'll hold off from using the bluetooth microphone on the field. (even though I'm the one on the receiving end.)

If I'm not mistaken, you can get special permission (maybe from the FTA?) to use wireless equipment for the purposes of media. If you can prove that you're using it for a media purpose, you can probably get the field staff to allow it (not guaranteeing this in any way)

Also, on the note of wireless stuff in general:

*Venue and FIRST staff have a very wide-banded walkie-talkie system, and it would be very bad if teams had access to these channels. (for reasons that won't be explained here.)

*The bit out 802.11n being dual-banded is true, and the field uses a system to scout out wireless networks that are being operated in the venue, and will ask teams to turn off their devices if they are detected

*I don't see a problem with bluetooth in and of itself, bluetooth headsets aren't banned from the event, and I've even seen teams scouting using bluetooth Wii-motes. The issue becomes with the rules regarding communications with the driver.

[Fletch1373]

*The bit out 802.11n being dual-banded is true, and the field uses a system to scout out wireless networks that are being operated in the venue, and will ask teams to turn off their devices if they are detected


yes jacob... 802.11n may be dual-banded... but if you remember, the control system manual's instructions on how to set up the gaming adapter(aka robot radio) included limiting it to the 5GHz band

unless I missed something, I don't see much of a problem with using the 2.4GHz band and just restricting the 5GHz band