View Full Version : Championship 2010 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please?
dangerousdave
18-04-2010, 01:14
Please tell us what you liked or what could have been done better, concerning the 2010 Championship's that ended on Saturday. Perhaps it could help the planners of the next Championship event in St. Louis next April.
Thanks First participants for coming to Atlanta for the past 7 years. We have enjoyed hosting the Championship's and I am sure St. Louis will be as good or perhaps an even better host. I hope everyone has enjoyed coming to Atlanta and I was so happy that the weather was so beautiful for the final Championship in Atlanta.
Tom Line
18-04-2010, 11:51
I had meant to start a thread like this. As it was my first time there, I observed quite a few things that I wanted to mention.
1. Regarding shipping: when our team of 5 came into the pits, they saw our crate there ready to go. They started to pull the front off, only to find stuck in one corner on the back side of the crate a sticker saying we were 10 pounds overweight.
For us to ship we have to put labels all over the crate, all 4 sides, in specified positions. At a minimum a very simple precaution could be taken - wrap any crates that are overweight with a piece of caution tape to make it more obvious. This is one of those 'will prevent this from ever happening again' solutions that there is absolutely no reason not to use.
2. Seating. I don't understand why it was done, but the fields were pushed up right against the seats. Basically you could not see the close 1/3 of the field because of people's heads.
3. Saving seats. FIRST needs to reiterate this - perhaps make it the #1 item on the form people sign to come to competition. It isn't allowed. There simply isn't enough room at each field for people to tape signs on a huge block of seats and then have many of those seats go unused.
4. MC's / announcers. Some were very very good. Some were very very bad. I hope that there is some group somewhere that is asked to give feedback on the announcers at each field so that we can improve the event.
5. The practice fields. We were surprised (and the volunteers confessed that they were surprised too) when the fields were shut down during elimination alliance selection and disassembled! A number of robots (I counted an easy dozen) came to the fields to check their robots or make small fixes but were turned away.
6. The food rules around the venue. This is not a pro-football game where people paid $75 a ticket and can afford $4 for a hot dog and $3.25 for a small bottle of water. I know, FIRST probably didn't make this decision and there was probably little they could about it, but I still wanted to mention it. We ended having to leave the venue and walk to other locations (trailer, CNN food court, etc) to get food.
7. The judges need to post a schedule and stick to it for pit visitation. We had to keep members in the pits where they missed our matches. These kids worked hard to generate thousands of dollars to get us there, and they missed a good portion of the time we were playing (even when we were rotating them).
8. Turn up the volume on closing ceremony speeches. We could barely hear!
All in all, the complaints were minor and the event was excellent. The volunteers were friendly and helpful, and we enjoyed our time immensely and hope to earn our way back as soon as we can!
Chris is me
18-04-2010, 11:58
3. Saving seats. FIRST needs to reiterate this - perhaps make it the #1 item on the form people sign to come to competition. It isn't allowed. There simply isn't enough room at each field for people to tape signs on a huge block of seats and then have many of those seats go unused.
This needs to be stressed, emphasized, and very strictly enforced. My team does not like to save seats at all; if spectators or anyone wish to sit near us we let them. But it seemed at Championship we absolutely needed to sprawl our stuff everywhere in order to get some of the worst seats in the division, when several teams laid towels, signs, or even roped off huge sections of the stands before their team got there. Why does my team get punished for following the rules and they get rewarded for breaking them?
I had a few more but I forgot them.
7. The judges need to post a schedule and stick to it for pit visitation. We had to keep members in the pits where they missed our matches. These kids worked hard to generate thousands of dollars to get us there, and they missed a good portion of the time we were playing (even when we were rotating them).
I agree, for our team we didn't have very many people there, and we only saw three judges on friday morning, none any other time. I understand that there are a lot of pits to visit, but i was concerned when we were only able to talk to three judges.
I do want to thank everybody who did come by our pit and compliment the robot or our pit set up :)
Vikesrock
18-04-2010, 13:53
4. MC's / announcers. Some were very very good. Some were very very bad. I hope that there is some group somewhere that is asked to give feedback on the announcers at each field so that we can improve the event.
All the announcers and MCs at the Championship are typically those considered the best in FIRST. I have a feeling I know which announcer you're talking about and he is a bit of a polarizing character. Personally I don't care for his announcing style, but many consider him their favorite announcer.
7. The judges need to post a schedule and stick to it for pit visitation. We had to keep members in the pits where they missed our matches. These kids worked hard to generate thousands of dollars to get us there, and they missed a good portion of the time we were playing (even when we were rotating them).
I didn't know that this was normal for judges to do. In fact, in the 3 years that I've been participating with FRC you ALWAYS should have at least 2 people in the pits.
Tom Line
18-04-2010, 14:20
By no means is it 'normal'. But I can't think of a single good reason why teams should be forced to keep students in the pit unable to see the World Championship when it could be remedied by simply posting a schedule and adhereing to it.
Chris is me
18-04-2010, 14:28
By no means is it 'normal'. But I can't think of a single good reason why teams should be forced to keep students in the pit unable to see the World Championship when it could be remedied by simply posting a schedule and adhereing to it.
I'm beginning to like this idea. Every team could get 15 or so minutes on Friday, then Saturday (or Friday afternoon) could be used for the extra attention they give teams when considering them for a major award. This also prevents people (myself included) from questioning whether or not a team was given enough time to present at a regional.
Andrew Schuetze
18-04-2010, 14:38
I had meant to start a thread like this. As it was my first time there, I observed quite a few things that I wanted to mention.
6. The food rules around the venue. This is not a pro-football game where people paid $75 a ticket and can afford $4 for a hot dog and $3.25 for a small bottle of water. I know, FIRST probably didn't make this decision and there was probably little they could about it, but I still wanted to mention it. We ended having to leave the venue and walk to other locations (trailer, CNN food court, etc) to get food.
All in all, the complaints were minor and the event was excellent. The volunteers were friendly and helpful, and we enjoyed our time immensely and hope to earn our way back as soon as we can!
Thanks for mentioning that these are minor complaints. As a FIRST event organizer here in San Antonio, Texas, I get this very same or similar input. However, I have no control or bargaining power to negotiate venue food prices. Those are very much written in stone by contractors with the venue where the venue gets a piece of the pie as part of that contract. In some venues the contracts are written such that one can bring in outside venders but then one has to pay the venue their contracted percentage... So this is always an issue a team must prepare for in advance. Tailgate if it is allowed, have staff who can do the lunch run, purchase the pre-event meal package ... not something FIRST can control as much as we all would like to be able to do so:]
MagiChau
18-04-2010, 14:58
I guess it is always expected for outrageous food prices at these venues. I would like the final part of the webcast (after all the divisions emerged with a victorious alliance) to be uploaded online because yesterday my internet connection just went boom - dead right when all the Divisions were finished so I couldn't see the world championship semi-finals, finals, the speeches, and the award ceremony.
fuzzy1718
18-04-2010, 17:25
A few people on my team were suggesting during the finals, moving einstein to the middle of the arena and lowering the curtains. That way people can sit on either side of the arena and see/hear better.
ttldomination
18-04-2010, 17:32
Water and what not are always $4+. It's ridiculous, but that's what it was at Peachtree, Palmetto, and I didn't expect Worlds to be different.
I for one really liked the field transition. Robots for the next round were turned on 20 seconds before the previous match ended. Then, the robots going in were immediately allowed to go in, while the teams who were exiting left after the robots moved in. It got a little confusing at times, but it was quick, efficient, and fun.
The only other thing that I really got to experience was the Dean's List event, which, I believe should've been held inside. There were A LOT of people, and it was extremely hot. I know it was the inaugural year, so hopefully next year we'll see a grand ceremony inside the dome.
Overall, I thought that the level of competition was less than what I experienced in the Michigan State Championship. You can definitely tell which teams only played one regional, and they were the ones that really hurt your alliance.
The crowd was just dead Thursday and Friday. When ever my team mates tried to stand and cheer, they would constantly get yelled at by another team (who by the way, wasn't even scouting). Seriously, lighten up guys. These matches are much more fun to watch when the crowd is wild.
Tom Line
18-04-2010, 18:07
Overall, I thought that the level of competition was less than what I experienced in the Michigan State Championship. You can definitely tell which teams only played one regional, and they were the ones that really hurt your alliance.
The crowd was just dead Thursday and Friday. When ever my team mates tried to stand and cheer, they would constantly get yelled at by another team (who by the way, wasn't even scouting). Seriously, lighten up guys. These matches are much more fun to watch when the crowd is wild.
I had forgotten to mention that. For those that were not there, we had NO opening ceremony prior to the start of qualifications on Thursday. Practice matches were being run, and they switched over to qualifications. The announcement on our field literally amounted to "This will be the first qualification match of the day. 3...2...1... Go". Very anti-climatic and didn't get anyone interested or jumpstarted. The matches on Thursday just seemed like more practice matches after that until the official kick-off Friday.
On another note, Dean should be thanked for making himself as available as he does. He stopped by the different fields and a number of our students got to talk to him and shake his hand and get their shirts signed. It was a memorable experience.
Also, I know that arguments about who should be allowed at worlds can be made for both sides, but I'm all for having teams earn their way in via a point system of some sort. There were a shocking number of robots on the field who could barely drive (or this may have been limited to just our field). The number of cards (red and yellow) handed out to teams on Thursday was shocking.
It would be nice if FIRST would find a way to make all the divisions evenly matched. Also a lot of teams work hard to earn their way to the championship event. I believe that it is not fair to these team to allow open bids to the same event. In my opinion this can lower the over quality of many of the matches and often leads to one sided alliances (1 good robot with little or no help against two or three good robots) in the qualifiers. If one team happens to get unlucky enough to have many of these match they are all but out of the running to get a seeded position no matter how good they are.
ChristopherSD
18-04-2010, 18:17
When ever my team mates tried to stand and cheer, they would constantly get yelled at by another team (who by the way, wasn't even scouting). Seriously, lighten up guys. These matches are much more fun to watch when the crowd is wild.
In my opinion, standing up during the introduction of the alliances is fine. Once the match starts, the team should sit down to make it easy for others to scout.
In my opinion, standing up during the introduction of the alliances is fine. Once the match starts, the team should sit down to make it easy for others to scout.
I agree. Especially with it being almost impossible to see the near corners of the field even when everyone is sitting down.
lproxster
18-04-2010, 18:58
About people sitting down --
I agree, our scouts wake up early and are sent to the arena before everyone else simply because we need good seats to scout well. When teams stand up during matches, especially when they're sitting in the front, they're hurting not just their chances to be deemed as a worthy competitor, but also our own team--what if we have a match with/against the team later? We need to know what the weaknesses and strengths of said team is.
I believe that it is not fair to these team to allow open bids to the same event. In my opinion this can lower the over quality of many of the matches and often leads to one sided alliances (1 good robot with little or no help against two or three good robots) in the qualifiers. If one team happens to get unlucky enough to have many of these match they are all but out of the running to get a seeded position no matter how good they are.
I disagree about no open bids to champs.
My example; my team had not won either of the two regionals we went to and we hadn't necessarily done amazingly, but we still paid our way to champs.
At champs, we were on Curie, and in our last match were against 1114 (and others). We very nearly bested them. We would've won if there hadn't been DOGMA's. On the way back to the pits, on of the 1114 drivers said to us that they hadn't expected to have to really fight for that match.
point is, we were able to do really well (against all odds) even though we didn't "earn our way in" to champs.
I disagree about no open bids to champs.
My example; my team had not won either of the two regionals we went to and we hadn't necessarily done amazingly, but we still paid our way to champs.
At champs, we were on Curie, and in our last match were against 1114 (and others). We very nearly bested them. We would've won if there hadn't been DOGMA's. On the way back to the pits, on of the 1114 drivers said to us that they hadn't expected to have to really fight for that match.
point is, we were able to do really well (against all odds) even though we didn't "earn our way in" to champs.
Sure, but you're an exception. There are plenty of teams that buy their way in and aren't an asset to their alliances.
Chris is me
18-04-2010, 19:47
It would be nice if FIRST would find a way to make all the divisions evenly matched. Also a lot of teams work hard to earn their way to the championship event. I believe that it is not fair to these team to allow open bids to the same event. In my opinion this can lower the over quality of many of the matches and often leads to one sided alliances (1 good robot with little or no help against two or three good robots) in the qualifiers. If one team happens to get unlucky enough to have many of these match they are all but out of the running to get a seeded position no matter how good they are.
Many could argue that if you consistently need good partners to dominate, then you don't have a Top 8 caliber robot...
Jared Russell
18-04-2010, 19:57
I wish that they would bring back video feeds to the pits.
A large segment of our team wasn't able to watch more than a handful of championship matches because of their commitments in the pits.
LWakefield
18-04-2010, 20:11
In my opinion, standing up during the introduction of the alliances is fine. Once the match starts, the team should sit down to make it easy for others to scout.
I have to disagree. We were yelled at for not sitting down. So much for gracious professionalism. It is the championship. You should be able to stand up. If a team is mad, they can move where they sit.
Having the Dean's List ceremony outside was nice, because it was a nice day, though it was quite hot. Myself and a few other finalists were wondering if a fan/spray bottle was included in the bag of goodies given a way just to cool down.
The practice field was a bit crazy sometimes. One time we were on the practice field, there was eight robots I believe. Sometimes the waits on the practice field were crazy (or at least it seemed like it). Repairing a robot should be done off the field, so others can enjoy their practice field minutes. Sometimes even the wait time was crazy, though I don't think theres much to fix there as its just due to requests to practice.
I can't think of anything else, though an elevator in the parking lot gave me and a friend quite a scare with its bumpy start/stop.
-Tanner
Shishkaa585
18-04-2010, 20:27
2. Seating. I don't understand why it was done, but the fields were pushed up right against the seats. Basically you could not see the close 1/3 of the field because of people's heads.
4. MC's / announcers. Some were very very good. Some were very very bad. I hope that there is some group somewhere that is asked to give feedback on the announcers at each field so that we can improve the event.
6. The food rules around the venue. This is not a pro-football game where people paid $75 a ticket and can afford $4 for a hot dog and $3.25 for a small bottle of water. I know, FIRST probably didn't make this decision and there was probably little they could about it, but I still wanted to mention it. We ended having to leave the venue and walk to other locations (trailer, CNN food court, etc) to get food.
7. The judges need to post a schedule and stick to it for pit visitation. We had to keep members in the pits where they missed our matches. These kids worked hard to generate thousands of dollars to get us there, and they missed a good portion of the time we were playing (even when we were rotating them).
I agree with these points also idk why but our team wasnt visited by the safety judges because they said that our safety captain had bad posture and was dressed bad.
Also the teams that bought there way in a few were very rude and un-FIRST like which was sad.
Overall tho the competition was a blast as is the entire robotics experience. Cant wait till next year!
Holtzman
18-04-2010, 20:49
I have to disagree. We were yelled at for not sitting down. So much for gracious professionalism. It is the championship. You should be able to stand up. If a team is mad, they can move where they sit.
You're calling a team out for not being graciously professional when you’re preventing potentially hundreds of people from seeing the match? There are 80’ish other teams in the division who have just as much right to watching as you do. It’s not just “your” match.
If everybody sits down, everybody can see. If your team stands, then nobody behind you can see. If you absolutely have to stand during your match, then sit at the back where you won't block anyone's view. A little common courtesy can go a long way.
Tom Line
18-04-2010, 21:04
You're calling a team out for not being graciously professional when you’re preventing potentially hundreds of people from seeing the match? There are 80’ish other teams in the division who have just as much right to watching as you do. It’s not just “your” match.
If everybody sits down, everybody can see. If your team stands, then nobody behind you can see. If you absolutely have to stand during your match, then sit at the back where you won't block anyone's view. A little common courtesy can go a long way.
I agree with both sides. I want to be able to stand and cheer my team. But I want to be able to see!
Perhaps they could open the second level to scouts only. In many district events we put our scouts upstairs where they could sit closer together and work. Then they can always see, and people downstairs can stand and cheer. I don't like the idea of splitting teams up though, but really our scouts don't have the time to cheer much :D .
There's no way to change the seating - it's a fundamental flaw in using a football arena with flat seating when you should be using a basketball or hockey arena with sharper seating. It's a question of the size of the fields - the angle of the seating is in direct relation to the size of the playing field in most pro sports venues. Unfortunately having 5 fields plus vex etc on the same floor requires a footprint that venue with better seating simply doesn't have.
So I guess there's no way to fix the seating, other than moving the field further from the interior wall, and potentially moving scouts upstairs.
I have to admit, expecting a team that is in a major match not stand and scream their heads off is a bit unreasonable. In fact, I can't think of a single professional event where people don't stand during an intense exciting moment. This isn't chess. The problem is in the field arrangement, not in the spectator's emotions.
Andrew Schreiber
18-04-2010, 21:06
Also the teams that bought there way in a few were very rude and un-FIRST like which was sad.
No, there may have been teams that were rude and "un-FIRST" but I doubt there was any particular correlation between teams that bought there way in and teams that act like jerks.
Shishkaa585
18-04-2010, 21:12
Sure, but you're an exception. There are plenty of teams that buy their way in and aren't an asset to their alliances.
Winning isnt the only goal of FIRST though. Its about spreading FIRST's ideals so to me any team should be allowed to go if they can pay for it.
I think the awards should be given between the division play-offs and Einstein. That way the matches could be held one after another without the long delays which tend to stop the build-up of excitement.
I also wish that Einstein was in the middle of the arena as there were very few seats that could see the whole field. I ended up watching the Einstein matches on the screen despite the fact I was sitting at the front because I was off to the side.
Shishkaa585
18-04-2010, 21:14
No, there may have been teams that were rude and "un-FIRST" but I doubt there was any particular correlation between teams that bought there way in and teams that act like jerks.
Yea i should of thought that out before i said that, i take that back.
lol too tired from the 4 hour flight to LAX from Atlanta and all the fun at competition :D
Chris is me
18-04-2010, 21:16
I have to disagree. We were yelled at for not sitting down. So much for gracious professionalism. It is the championship. You should be able to stand up. If a team is mad, they can move where they sit.
No they can't. There aren't exactly an abundance of free seats for each division to clearly see the field, especially for scouting but even just to get a view of the match.
(I never get why it's okay to stand for an entire match if the people behind you aren't scouting. I would like to think that they, too, are watching the match...)
sircedric4
18-04-2010, 21:28
Winning isnt the only goal of FIRST though. Its about spreading FIRST's ideals so to me any team should be allowed to go if they can pay for it.
I agree with this statement completely. FIRST is about inspiration and part of that inspiration is a chance to get out and compete and see robots that are really, really good, as well as those that aren't. I mean just because some team is a powerhouse and "better" doesn't mean that they can't learn from some novel mechanism or strategy from a newer, "worse" robot. There are thousands of people in this game and I learn as much from the smaller teams failures as I do from powerhouse bulletproof bots.
How is a small team that isn't located near where a power team lives and plays ever supposed to see how a "championship" level robot works and looks if they never get a chance to compete with them?
I know that some of the smaller regionals don't have the caliber of robot that is present at some of the older more established regionals/locations and for many, including our team, the only chance we get to see the other robots is at the Championships. I like the ability to go every 4 years even if you haven't "earned" your way there because you expose more students to the things that make FIRST great. FIRST isn't just about the competition.
As for the topic, I think that when setting up the pits at the Championships, more effort should be put into making sure that the PA system and announcements can actually be heard and understood throughout. I don't think i understood any announcement in the pits throughout the competition.
I also think that in addition to the "official" practice fields, there should be a more casual location setup with some of the main field pieces setup so a team can evaluate their robot without having to do a full practice thing. We made a couple tweaks to our robot to make our looper better and weren't sure we could still climb the bumps without flipping until we tried it in our first qualifier match. If there was a couple bumps setup somewhere where we could have just set our robot on it without having to go through the sign up process that would have been mucho helpful.
Overall I had a very good time at the Champs.
No they can't. There aren't exactly an abundance of free seats for each division to clearly see the field, especially for scouting but even just to get a view of the match.
(I never get why it's okay to stand for an entire match if the people behind you aren't scouting. I would like to think that they, too, are watching the match...)
See above. Our team only stands up to cheer our team onto the field (anyone hear our NERD ALERTs?), then, for the rest of the match, make a ruckus from a sitting position.
Katie_UPS
18-04-2010, 21:30
For those wanting Einstein in the middle:
That will delay finals even more. Taking down the curtains (I imagine) is not a five minute task. Also, it would take time to set up the field, as having it there the entire event will affect robot traffic to Curie and Archimedes. Also, the "awards" stage and field/tech tables will have no where to be. I understand why you guys want it to be more center, but its just not logistically sound.
I thoroughly enjoyed the event (but I was also team-less). I would comment that FIRST should note field awards ceremonies, as Curie's was still going on when they started the videos, and I'm sure many teams missed the Myth Busters. :(
Don Wright
18-04-2010, 21:32
Just a few comments (some second hand, and some repeated):
- I agree...leave the practice field up for one more hour...
- (second hand) have a space for the field teams of the teams playing on Einstein to see the matches. Our field team couldn't even see the matches we were in...
- I would love to see the food restrictions relaxed, but understand that might be difficult for the venue
- Bring video back to the pits
- If you are going to let us in to work on the robots Wed. night (which I love), let us bring more than 5 people in. I understand keeping it light for removing crates (or just let us bring our robots...ahem), but only 5?
- I won't bring up the standing during the match topic again since I've beat it to death in past years...we had little issues this year. Which was good because we had several kids under 10 with us which wouldn't have been able to see the matches even if they stood when you did...
- Let the security team know we are allowed to have cameras and video cameras in the stands. One of our students was told we couldn't have a video camera on a tripod unless we had the media pass on it...
- I don't know the arena in St. Louis, but if the loading/unloading area was bigger so it wouldn't take so long for the bus and trucks with trailers to get into the load/unload area.
That's all I can think of for now...
In regards to the question of the Open bids being a good idea, or lowering the level of competition at Champs, At every regional there are 7 alliance captains that do not "earn" their way in to atlanta, and one second round pick that does.
I like the present system.
1) dear god can we please have ALL the awards given out BEFORE einstein? it made me want to cry having to wait for each award between elims, like seriously if you want FIRST to be popular dont make the best part of it unbearably boring
2) Have teams earn their ways in can be stupid though becuase some statistics are arbitrary and some people who win regionals as second picks are not as strong as others who might have won anything. I think it should be if you are picked for an alliance at any regional for elims then you can go.
3) Dont repeat the same songs over and over again
4) walking between the G dome and the GWCC was kinda annoying.
4) walking between the G dome and the GWCC was kinda annoying.
If you can find another enormous facility that houses almost 340 teams' pits that is within the same proximity that the GWCC is to the Dome, please let FIRST know and make a suggestion.
Sure, but you're an exception. There are plenty of teams that buy their way in and aren't an asset to their alliances.
Following this logic, you are saying that "teams that aren't an asset to their alliances" shouldn't be allowed into the Championship. There were teams with merit-based qualifying awards, such as Regional Chairman's, Engineering Inspiration, or Rookie All-Star, that fielded less-than-stellar robots. At the same time, there were teams with incredible robots that may have gotten unlucky during qualification matches and/or alliance selections and may not have won their regional, or received a qualifying award. My team is extremely grateful for the open-bids to the Championship. Even though we qualified with a regional win this year, we still paid for an open bid months ahead of time. In 2008 and 2009, we also went to the Championship with an open bid.
Just because "teams aren't an asset to their alliance" doesn't mean that FIRST should not allow open bids to the Championship.
-Logan
Chris is me
18-04-2010, 22:08
Sure, but you're an exception. There are plenty of teams that buy their way in and aren't an asset to their alliances.
I'd actually argue about 50% of the "not an asset to their alliance" teams you refer to are second picks at weak events, young Rookie All Star / EI winners, etc. Many buy their way in, yeah, but making Champs qualification only won't fix that, so I'd rather not cut off a channel of inspiration to kind of fix something that is only kind of a problem.
Wayne TenBrink
18-04-2010, 23:58
Good discussion on some difficult and touchy subjects.
1) Sitting vs. standing: After standing all year at district/regional venues where the layout of the stands makes it less of an issue for those behind us (we normally sat in the back and could still see without binoculars), it was an adjustment to stand and cheer during the introductions and sit for the match. It was the proper thing to do under the circumstances, but it does put a damper on displays of team spirit. Perhaps in St. Louis they can put the fields further away from the side wall.
2) Einstein field placement & ceremonies: Instead of putting Einstein on the "50 yard line", perhaps they could put it in the end zone, oriented perpendicular to the other fields. The "wrap-around" seating would put more people closer to the field & podium. I think they do a good job with the scheduling. It is important to recognize everyone's achievements, and it is apparent that they do their best to be efficient with time. The sad reality is that if award presentations weren't intermixed with Einstein matches, people would not be there to watch them.
3) "Buy-In" vs. "Win to go": There are good reasons for the open bid system and I fully support the concept (every student should go to the Championship at least once during their years in FIRST). However, having open bids and other award winners there does affect the level of competition (good, bad or indifferent). What if they put all the regional event winners on two of the fields and the open bid and award winners on the other fields? The winners could still face each other on Einstein. I'm not sure I support this, but it might be worth some discussion.
4) General venue issues: I wasn't impressed with the food at the venue. I couldn't hear anything on the PA in the pits. I logged a lot of miles walking back and forth between the field and pits after every match. I wish we could have brought our own food and water. Oh, well. That comes with the territory. It's not a big deal, but I would appreciate any efforts to improve on this in St. Louis. I just hope we get a chance to go and find out if they do!
We had a great time in Atlanta this year. Thank you to everyone who made it possible!
Nawaid Ladak
19-04-2010, 00:44
For those wanting Einstein in the middle:
That will delay finals even more. Taking down the curtains (I imagine) is not a five minute task. Also, it would take time to set up the field, as having it there the entire event will affect robot traffic to Curie and Archimedes. Also, the "awards" stage and field/tech tables will have no where to be. I understand why you guys want it to be more center, but its just not logistically sound.
I thoroughly enjoyed the event (but I was also team-less). I would comment that FIRST should note field awards ceremonies, as Curie's was still going on when they started the videos, and I'm sure many teams missed the Myth Busters. :(
I can agree with this 100%. I was upset i missed the video because i was finishing up awards on Curie. The field finals were projected to finish after 4PM, but because they didn't. I think the staff decided to start the event on time instead of waiting 15 minutes for the awards to pack up on Curie.
That was the only thing i disliked about the event, along with the obvious situation of stolen items (I'm still shocked about that).
I'll suggest this idea once again. It's a compromise about the "every team can come and play at CMP" vs "you should earn your way into CMP". is as folows.
Event Type: FIRST Championship Last Minute Qualifying Heat
Event Capacity: 32 Teams.
Registration Criteria: Open Registration, closes the Friday before Championship
Cost: $2,000. another $3500 if you qualify for Championships through this system, which must be paid on the spot once you qualify.
Location: Same Venue as the Championship, using the four Division fields
Dates: Tuesday/Wednesday the week of Championship. There will be two time slots, each team can only register for one per day. The two time slots are 8:45am - 12:15pm and 2:00pm - 5:30pm
Structure: Each team gets 3 qualification matches, 0 practice matches. after the qualification matches (16 matches, 1hr 36min on a 6 minute cycle). The top four teams will be chosen as alliance captions, Alliance selections will occur, and the elimination matches will be played.
Setup: Just the field/FMS, referee's/scorekeepers and field reset/2 queuing people, nothing else is really necessary. That stuff can be set up in preparation for Thursday.
Awards: The winning alliance along with a team that the Referee's feel is deserving of competing at the Championship Event will each be invited to the Championship later that week*. No banners, trophies or banners will be handed out.
*= if a backup robot is called to replace a robot on the winning alliance, there will be no "extra invite".
I think this would solve a lot of problems, if a team is willing to compete and wants to go bad enough, they would compete in the heats.
I really enjoyed the deans list ceremony, considering it was totally last minute. (FIRST only found out the Friday before Championships that the Secretary of Education would be attending for an hour.) Myself and a few others had to run around the pits Thursday giving teams flyers and telling them to come to the event.
Something from the Edwards Jones Dome Facts Webpage
Incentive design features allow the Dome floor to be transformed easily from convention exhibition space to football field to concert venue. The first 14 rows of permanent seats are retractable as they fold back to provide a smooth wall appearance when the exhibit hall floor is being used for exhibits or meetings. A full section of seats is removable allowing exhibits to flow freely from America's Center's five exhibition halls directly into Hall 6, the Dome floor. Connecting all six halls creates 502,000 square feet of contiguous prime exhibit space.
In other words, We're going to have a free-flow pits to field system in St. Louis, this is a HUGE plus
Rick TYler
19-04-2010, 01:26
Sure, but you're an exception. There are plenty of teams that buy their way in and aren't an asset to their alliances.
I don't think you get the whole idea of student engineering competitions...
Rick TYler
19-04-2010, 01:33
Seat saving -- the absolute worst part of Championships. I have only been to Champs once with our FTC students (I couldn't make it this year) and seating was just awful. I tried to sit and watch some FRC matches while I was there and EVERY SINGLE TIME I went to sit down some snot-nosed kid (and a few snot-nosed adults) came running over to tell me I was not welcome because these were reserved seats for their team. The only way I got to sit was to ignore them and stay where I was. In the FTC fields, a huge group of parents and other relatives from a single team camped out in the first four rows right behind the fields, blocked seats, and sat there for the entire tournament. Even when their team wasn't on the field and most of them were gone, they managed to cover seats with clothing and other personal possessions to guarantee that no one else could sit in "their" seats.
I once tried to politely explain FIRST's seating rules to some adults in Portland and almost got punched for my efforts. How about disqualifying a team from competition for a year for violating the seat saving rules? I can guarantee that not many teams would be penalized before the practice died out.
I can't imagine how someone not involved with a team would ever enjoy visiting a FIRST event if mine is a typical experience. One of the great things about scorekeeping is that I always get my own chair.
On the other hand, I love the pits and asking students about their robots. That's the cool part.
sanddrag
19-04-2010, 01:36
DISLIKES:
Match list needs to be online as soon as it gets put in teams hands on paper.
The heat and humidity in the pit on Wednesday night was almost unbearable. Also, for teams with their 5 members arriving at different times, giving all 5 wristbands to the first person was not smart. Many would argue limiting it to only 5 people was not smart either. For many teams, 5 people is not enough to carry necessary items in and get started working safely. Do we want 5 people working at a 2x pace endangering themselves, or 10 people working at a more normal pace?
Escalators that didn't work were really troublesome.
Having an entrance to the pits directly at the bottom of an active down escalator was a big mistake. Teams who piled up down there at 7:15 AM to get into that (then closed) door should be ashamed of themselves. I'm surprised nobody broke an ankle in a pileup. Not a safe situation.
The sound quality was absolutely terrible for a lot of the time (at least on Archimedes). Several times, the announcer would exclaim something that made me say "Owww!" with regard to my ears. The volume was FAR too loud. With the number of UL safety guys/gals we have at these events, I would enjoy seeing them put more emphasis on safe sound levels. Not sure if it was sub-par amps, or too much volume in too small of speakers or what, but it was downright painful to listen to at many times. I had to leave the stands. On several occasions when I left the dome, everything around me sounded muted and muffled, for up to hours even. This is a clear indicator that sound in the dome had reached a dangerous level. The problem is the sound guys checking it have been blasting their ears with loud music for 20 years. They don't know what loud is anymore. I might as well mention the finale stage sound was too loud as well.
The food at Food World in Building C was overpriced and not good. Not sure why they ever did away with the pasta place (which was pretty good a couple years ago). With the exception of the rolls, the food at the Finale was not good either. Why was there no real Coca-Cola Classic? We were in Atlanta. The Coke Zero stuff is not even remotely similar. Also, the refilling staff were dumping heavy cans on top of people's arms who were just trying to get a cold one (which none of them were).
I think all the big-stage music/acts/whatever at the Finale could have been much better.
Teams yelling "ROBOT!" at the top of their lungs while strolling through the pit area was really getting out of hand. When you do that, you are not being safe, you are being downright obnoxious, and in some respects unsafe. If I am in the FLL pits and you are yelling "ROBOT!" in the Curie pits and I can hear you as if you were behind me, we have a problem.
DOGMA penalties that accumulated for a ball that missed a counter was just plain stupid. There should only be one penalty assigned for improper return, not a penalty for the whole time the FMS computer thinks it is gone. There is a referee watching the alliance station who can see there is clearly no ball that has been kept in the station. 20+ points in DOGMA penalties is not the way any match should ever end. The field should have be designed in a fashion such that ball return is so stupidly simple it can't get screwed up by the human player.
LIKES:
The venue event staff (yellow jacket people) was amazingly friendly this year. I'm not sure what FIRST told those folks but it worked. I was glad to see them asking about matches and congratulating teams on their way to and from the field. The elevator attendants were a nice touch too.
The explanation of the FIRST Logo was good.
The fireworks were quite good. I'll call that money well spent. :)
The new schedule and 10 matches was good.
The new seats in the dome seemed better than 2008.
The Einstein video screen was beautiful.
The food at the CNN Center was great.
The generosity of my good friends at team 368, over all 4 days of the event.
And, I'm sure there's more that I can't remember right now.
Tetraman
19-04-2010, 01:47
What gets me the most frustrated, is play-by-play announcers. Can we clone JonDarr? How is he not Einstein's announcer yet? Announcers should be exciting and engaging, and some are just BORING to listen to. Expecially if you sit at home watching the webcast. You hear the announcer more then the MC; a spirited Announcer is just as important as a spirited MC. Are there try-outs and cuts? Yes I understand that a job such as an announcer requires a person who knows what they are doing, but there can't be a total lack of volunteers with pip in their step and fire in their belly who know the whats what.
waialua359
19-04-2010, 02:02
Winning isnt the only goal of FIRST though. Its about spreading FIRST's ideals so to me any team should be allowed to go if they can pay for it.
I disagree. We spend more time stressed about our partners, then we do playing against good teams.
It is still a competition and everyone is trying to win matches.
When you spend as much as we have, you'd expect teams partners that can play the game well and understand the rules. There are a few outstanding teams that pay their way, than the majority who aren't.
George A.
19-04-2010, 02:03
What gets me the most frustrated, is play-by-play announcers. Can we clone JonDarr? How is he not Einstein's announcer yet? Announcers should be exciting and engaging, and some are just BORING to listen to. Expecially if you sit at home watching the webcast. You hear the announcer more then the MC; a spirited Announcer is just as important as a spirited MC. Are there try-outs and cuts? Yes I understand that a job such as an announcer requires a person who knows what they are doing, but there can't be a total lack of volunteers with pip in their step and fire in their belly who know the whats what.
I know each field usually has at least 1 game announcer on it. However, I heard that this year there was one for play by play, and one for team intros/scores in order to save everyone's voice.
I know the 4 usual game announcers are Andy Grady, Dan Green, Don Knight, and (at least when I was there in 08) Greg Needel. These are the 4 most experienced game announcers in FIRST. I also know that there are a few backups that cycle through.
On Einstein, the announcer is usually Blair (the MC of Galileo) and he has been dubbed "the Voice of FIRST) for a reason.
Game announcers are actually a rare commodity. (speaking from the vantage point of a planning committee member) There are way more people signing up to be a MC rather than a game announcer.
Although there is no accounting for taste. I know I talk to some people who rave about certain announcers who others can't stand.
CY83R W01V35
19-04-2010, 02:28
i agree with both sides to an extent on the cheering problem and i know who everyone in newton was talking about which is my team (647)
but the first two days we didn't bother anyone we were off to the left side cheering for everyone no matter who they were but then people snatched our seats the third day and we were fine with it so we went and sat in L40 which was near a corner we were then kind enough to move on 4 occasions that day and were yelled at by several teams (mentors/parents) however i am proud of the students for not being so rude as to use vulgar language to several girls on our team which is as far away from gracious professionalism as you can get and were from a military town and for 1 you don't mess with family as our parents are deployed and first occupies our time and secondly there is never any excuse for an adult to cuss out a child and our cheer leader Mrs. dell i am very disappointed with some of the behavior i saw and thanks to code red and 2465 as well as others for cheering with us. and for the scouting aspect i completely understand but there were plenty of open spots towards the front for scouting teams to sit
p.s. some argue this is a sport and i agree 100% but apparently yall don't go to football games where you don't sit down the entire time...
4) walking between the G dome and the GWCC was kinda annoying.
I was told the walk from the pits to the field in St. Louis will be only 175 feet.
That is a huge improvement for drive teams.
Assuming that they have the robots/drivers go the back route (short, from Hall 5), I can believe it, for the close fields.
It's more like 100 yards, if that, for the long route, assuming Hall 2 or 3--> the floor of the Dome. (Hall 1 is the longest, but not by that much.)
It's extremely compact in terms of space, but it sure doesn't feel that way. There's a lot of conference rooms and stuff like that tucked in various places.
Sure, but you're an exception. There are plenty of teams that buy their way in and aren't an asset to their alliances.
There are teams who have won regionals who aren't exactly strong. Especially if they were at smaller events where the talent pool isn't as deep.
Not every team is going to be an 114, 469 or a 67.
The actual difference between them and everybody else isn't just the robot but knowing how to use those "lesser" robots to their advantage to win matches instead of just complaining about how crappy they are.
What gets me the most frustrated, is play-by-play announcers. Can we clone JonDarr? How is he not Einstein's announcer yet?
Who is Jon Darr?
Blair is the best there is. He's the only one that should do Einstein, ever, in my opinion
Who is Jon Darr?
Blair is the best there is. He's the only one that should do Einstein, ever, in my opinion
Jon Darr Bradshaw works for NASA in the Cleveland area and works the Buckeye regional and the Finger Lakes regional as an announcer. He was a back up announcer on both Curie and Archimedes last weekend.
He is terrific.
gvarndell
19-04-2010, 06:06
My one complaint, the one issue about which I feel strongly enough to sound off publicly.
There is absolutely no excuse for teams roping off and reserving, for their elaborate scouting setups, the handicapped/wheelchair areas behind the seats.
I would have hoped that arena staff would proactively police for and discourage this, but they didn't.
My family and I had a wonderful time at the champs.
We're going to St. Louis next year, even if our team doesn't make it. :)
Who is Jon Darr?
Blair is the best there is. He's the only one that should do Einstein, ever, in my opinion
AMEN to that!!! Blair is "The Man".
ayeckley
19-04-2010, 08:44
Who is Jon Darr?
Blair is the best there is. He's the only one that should do Einstein, ever, in my opinion
Then you haven't heard JonDar Bradshaw yet. :)
2252 had a great time at the CMP. There were a couple of minor things that our team was disappointed in, but the only thing worth mentioning was the apparent lack of judges and the confusion/mystery surrounding the judging process in general at the CMP. For example, we won the Innovation in Control Award at Buckeye and we felt we were a good candidate for the same award at the Championship. We suspect we were never considered for this award at the CMP since none of the judges our kids met asked any questions about our control system and how it worked. Rightly or wrongly, they felt like they were passed over for -- or disqualified from -- even the faintest consideration for some reason, but they don't know why. Was it something they did/failed to do? Was it just coincidence? Did they do something that "unimpressed" the judges? Did the judges stop by when our pit attendant was in the restroom? Do we have to be within the top eight teams in qualification points to even be considered? Perhaps this should be a Q and A system question if the forum is still active [goes, checks]. Looks like it is for now.
I'm sure lots of other teams have similar judging-related questions as well, so my recommendation is that FIRST give everyone a little more insight into how the judging process works at both Regional Events and the Championship. If the answer turns out to be just a question of judging manpower, I'd like to suggest that teams be allowed to "opt-out" of certain award categories; that way judges don't spend time interviewing teams that haven't explicitly pursued an award.
thefro526
19-04-2010, 09:14
This year's Championship seemed to go pretty well for me. I only have a few suggestions:
Allow more team personnel on Wednesday night for Un-Crating and Robot Work. I'm grateful that we had the opportunity to do this, this year, but it'd be great if we could bring more people next year. I think a number between 8 and 10 would be ideal, and I'd say that 2 of those would have to be Adults.
Close the Pits later on Friday night. I believe the pits closed at 6pm on Friday, and we were a bit rushed because we were in the first match Saturday Morning.
Create some sort of easy way to get from the Competition Floor to the Stands that's open all weekend to people with the appropriate credentials. (Badges, Media Pass, Volunteers etc...) I never realized how much of a pain it was to get from the Dome floor to the stands in a hurry.
Also, I'd like to see FIRST institute 4 team alliances for the Championship. I don't think adding an extra round of selections would be so detrimental to the schedule that it'd be impossible, and I believe it would bring an entirely new dimension to Eliminations if an Alliance can switch a team out at random. This also allows alliance members to fix their robots and miss a match, without being penalized with not being able to play for the rest of the tournament.
*edit* I forgot to add that 10 Qualification matches are great! I noticed that it really led to accurate seeding and gave teams more than enough opportunity to prove themselves.
Coach Tom
19-04-2010, 09:15
Perhaps because the qualification matches were so rushed, I can not remember hearing the MC or game announcers mentioning sponsors unless the team happened to be sponsored by General Motors. Once the tournament moved to Einstein, all I heard was General Motors (perhaps for good reason). I believe Beach Cities Robotics (294) is sponsored by Northrop Grumman. Was Northrop Grumman mentioned on Einstein? Maybe?
On Archimedes, our sponsors were never mentioned. Moreover, I can't remember hearing Miss Daisy's sponsors either (Dow Chemical - formally Rohm & Haas). Again, the General Motors teams on Archimedes were alway recognized.
I am glad that GM is mentioned. Don't change this. Rather, recognize the key sponsor of others.
Andrew Schreiber
19-04-2010, 09:29
Also, I'd like to see FIRST institute 4 team alliances for the Championship. I don't think adding an extra round of selections would be so detrimental to the schedule that it'd be impossible, and I believe it would bring an entirely new dimension to Eliminations if an Alliance can switch a team out at random. This also allows alliance members to fix their robots and miss a match, without being penalized with not being able to play for the rest of the tournament.
Oh, you mean have Alliances be composed of the number of robots on an alliance + 1... like it used to be? The rules used to specify that you had to play 100% of your alliance in any given elimination round. If you didn't use a team in one round you MUST use them in the next. At the Championship event it might be doable but at the smaller regionals finding 8 alliances of 4 teams is impossible. Yes doing it just at CMP would be an option but the real question is whether you want to have different game play rules at one event.
(Btw, I like this idea for CMP)
Jared Russell
19-04-2010, 09:35
Oh, you mean have Alliances be composed of the number of robots on an alliance + 1... like it used to be? The rules used to specify that you had to play 100% of your alliance in any given elimination round. If you didn't use a team in one round you MUST use them in the next. At the Championship event it might be doable but at the smaller regionals finding 8 alliances of 4 teams is impossible. Yes doing it just at CMP would be an option but the real question is whether you want to have different game play rules at one event.
(Btw, I like this idea for CMP)
I would say that there should be no obligation to use all four, but the fourth is your only backup (like at IRI).
This would only make sense at CMP (where I think it would be a great idea).
thefro526
19-04-2010, 09:46
Oh, you mean have Alliances be composed of the number of robots on an alliance + 1... like it used to be? The rules used to specify that you had to play 100% of your alliance in any given elimination round. If you didn't use a team in one round you MUST use them in the next. At the Championship event it might be doable but at the smaller regionals finding 8 alliances of 4 teams is impossible. Yes doing it just at CMP would be an option but the real question is whether you want to have different game play rules at one event.
(Btw, I like this idea for CMP)
Yes, I meant that during Alliance Selections a Captain would pick 3 teams, to make a 4 team alliance but only 3 of these teams would play during the match.
Basically, I envision it as a "pick your own backup" type of system, so that teams can switch out if they break and continue to play once they are fixed.
As far as play goes though, I don't think that the Alliance should be forced to use this fourth team to play, though it would be nice if the team were given a shot.
Perhaps FIRST can amend the rules next year to allow this to happen at events with more than 50 teams or so.
Andy Grady
19-04-2010, 10:01
What gets me the most frustrated, is play-by-play announcers. Can we clone JonDarr? How is he not Einstein's announcer yet? Announcers should be exciting and engaging, and some are just BORING to listen to. Expecially if you sit at home watching the webcast. You hear the announcer more then the MC; a spirited Announcer is just as important as a spirited MC. Are there try-outs and cuts? Yes I understand that a job such as an announcer requires a person who knows what they are doing, but there can't be a total lack of volunteers with pip in their step and fire in their belly who know the whats what.
While I know that not every announcer is off the charts amazing, you gotta understand things from an announcers standpoint. On Galileo we ran 144 matches this year. 144! Do you realize how difficult it is to find exciting things to talk about in even half of those matches? As a game announcer, you try to be exciting as much as possible, but you can't just fill the time with a bunch of useless crap either. This can be particularly challenging when 6 robots are litterally doing death circles on the field. Not to mention, we have to save energy. Two and a half days of announcing is murder on your voice. This is also the reason for the rotation of announcers and splitting play by play and intros/scores. The guys we have work hard on the field, some are amazing and some are still learning the ropes. Every single one of them prepares hard, and tries to bring the best they can to the table for you. You will never make everyone happy, and you can't clone a JohnDarr for every field, so be patient. I know that the people organizing these events are trying hard to bring you the best product possible.
For the record also, Blair has been an institution on Einstein as a play by play announcer for years. There are certain traditions that shouldn't be touched, and that is one of them.
We appreciate your input, and I hope things get a little more enjoyable for your tastes in the future.
Congrats to all!
I don't know how they do it.
I have to be careful if I spend to much time in the pits because it makes me lose my voice.
rotolomi
19-04-2010, 10:28
For those wanting Einstein in the middle:
That will delay finals even more. Taking down the curtains (I imagine) is not a five minute task. Also, it would take time to set up the field, as having it there the entire event will affect robot traffic to Curie and Archimedes. Also, the "awards" stage and field/tech tables will have no where to be. I understand why you guys want it to be more center, but its just not logistically sound.
I agree, they can't just reel down the curtains and be done. What about those monitors and all the A/V setup underneath them? ALL of that would have to be relocated and it would take more time to set up, rather than having Einstein ready to be played on during the division semi-finals.
JaneYoung
19-04-2010, 10:34
We appreciate your input, and I hope things get a little more enjoyable for your tastes in the future.
I'm glad you guys appreciate the input, Andy Grady - because you are classy like that.
Me - not so much. I don't appreciate the griping and complaining about the announcers or MCs one little bit.
Jane
P.S. I respect the purpose of this thread. Thanks, Dave. I hope you are getting some of what you were asking for.
Andrew Schreiber
19-04-2010, 10:43
I would say that there should be no obligation to use all four, but the fourth is your only backup (like at IRI).
This would only make sense at CMP (where I think it would be a great idea).
Yes, I meant that during Alliance Selections a Captain would pick 3 teams, to make a 4 team alliance but only 3 of these teams would play during the match.
Basically, I envision it as a "pick your own backup" type of system, so that teams can switch out if they break and continue to play once they are fixed.
As far as play goes though, I don't think that the Alliance should be forced to use this fourth team to play, though it would be nice if the team were given a shot.
Perhaps FIRST can amend the rules next year to allow this to happen at events with more than 50 teams or so.
My logic for forcing teams to use the 4th robot is so that the last team plays an integral part in the alliance. Imagine a scenario where Team A is chosen by Alliance 1 and goes on to win the Championship but Team A never played. Can they say they were part of the Alliance? They were but they didn't play an active role.
Coach Norm
19-04-2010, 10:57
Sure, but you're an exception. There are plenty of teams that buy their way in and aren't an asset to their alliances.
I support the idea of teams getting to attend Championships without qualifying at a Regional. It is a great learning experience that some teams would not get to see otherwise.
Team 2468 chose to attend Championships as our second regional rather than attend another regional. It was a great experience and very valuable for my younger team members to scout for team ideas in regards to robots, pits, FTC robots, etc.
We finished in the top 20 at Lone Star and made the eliminations as an Alliance pick. We were defeated in the quarterfinals.
At Championships, we finished 19th in Galileo. I feel we were a benefit to all the alliances we were on in our qualification matches.
Being an ex high school basketball coach of 21 years, you only get better if you play more times and against better competition. Yes, Regionals provide an opportunity to learn and improve, but Championships allows a team to see it on the Grand Scale that it is. It is quite a motivator for a team to be there and see the machines and teams perform, not only on the field but in the pits, Hall of Fame teams, Robotics Conference, etc.
Just my 2 cents.
Ryan Dognaux
19-04-2010, 11:06
What gets me the most frustrated, is play-by-play announcers. Can we clone JonDarr? How is he not Einstein's announcer yet? Announcers should be exciting and engaging, and some are just BORING to listen to. Expecially if you sit at home watching the webcast. You hear the announcer more then the MC; a spirited Announcer is just as important as a spirited MC. Are there try-outs and cuts? Yes I understand that a job such as an announcer requires a person who knows what they are doing, but there can't be a total lack of volunteers with pip in their step and fire in their belly who know the whats what.
Game announcing is one of the hardest things I've ever done at a regional event. Pack your lozenges, you're going to need them. It's easy to criticize these people but trying to think of things to say on the fly when absolutely nothing is going on out on the playing field is tough. Not only do they need to have a high energy level but they need a ridiculous amount of vocal stamina as well to last for 2 full days of announcing.
I watched Archimedes and thought the announcing was pretty good.
Fireworks 234
19-04-2010, 11:11
My only complaint that I feel hasn't been mentioned yet is the ridiculous camera angles being displayed for the Einstein matches.
The camera angles were annoying at times and they would constantly (every 2-3 seconds) switch to another angle. The beginning of the match consisted of the driver station view and the person in control of the view didn't take in to account the people watching from Galileo or Curie on their screen.
Overall I had a very difficult time trying to see what was going on through out the Einstein competition. Whether it was a lack of robots on screen or if it was a trigger-happy-camera-switcher, it all took away from the "epicness" of the final matches.
I do have to say, though, that the competition as a whole went over quite well. And for the first time in quite a few years, I'd have to say the temperature of the stadium wasn't freezing and the audio (on Curie) didn't seem out of hand.
Thanks for a great time! :)
BrendanB
19-04-2010, 11:32
My only complaint that I feel hasn't been mentioned yet is the ridiculous camera angles being displayed for the Einstein matches.
The camera angles were annoying at times and they would constantly (every 2-3 seconds) switch to another angle. The beginning of the match consisted of the driver station view and the person in control of the view didn't take in to account the people watching from Galileo or Curie on their screen.
Overall I had a very difficult time trying to see what was going on through out the Einstein competition. Whether it was a lack of robots on screen or if it was a trigger-happy-camera-switcher, it all took away from the "epicness" of the final matches.
I do have to say, though, that the competition as a whole went over quite well. And for the first time in quite a few years, I'd have to say the temperature of the stadium wasn't freezing and the audio (on Curie) didn't seem out of hand.
Thanks for a great time! :)
YES! Especially when they moved the screen shot with the score in it. I really liked how in 2007 they had most of the screen designated to the field and each side had a shot of the red or blue alliance. To me this year's Einstein shot seemed more like a powerpoint then an actual video shot.
My only problem this year was in the stands. Our team uses laptops to scout which eliminates so much time of compiling data and allows us to scout more about robots in a match. One cool thing with this we were able to do was "predict" match scores. In qualification 41 we predicted a score of 15.5 (which rounds up to 16) to 9 in our favor, the end result was 16 to 9, very cool! However with the laptops we have to sit in the back so we can have power since they did not allow teams to run power down the stands (although some didn't get spoken to who did). For many matches teams would stand up which is a continual problem in FIRST especially at Championships because there is no assigned cheering section for teams in that match. What really bothered me was several teams who sat in the first 10 rows and stood up every single match they played in even though the field was right in front of them which blocked most of the field for everyone else in the rows behind us. We were met with a comment of "Why don't you stand up?" when we asked a team to sit down who stood up when no one was blocking their view in front of them. I really don't mind if you stand during introductions or you want to show spirit which does not equate to standing in any form during a match, but when you are asked to sit down and continue to stand it is just plain rude and you are only creating a negative image to other teams.
I agree that FIRST should move the fields back 10-20 feet which would create a huge difference and have volunteers stand a few feet farther away from the field. I don't think some people realize that even though they are one person in the stands or next to the field, they have the ability to block off a large section of the field when they stand.
Just my thoughts, but Championships were very fun and can't wait to see how Saint Louis is next year!
EDIT: I don't like the idea of having a "scouting section" as mentioned below and in other threads. We use 7+ people when we scout plus room to set up our server and such. We have one person per robot, one person supervising, one person overseeing the server, one person looking over data for the next match, and on the last day our head scout found it valuable for two people to watch the match as a whole and take notes. That is a total of 11 people scouting. Some might call it "over-obsessive", but our team takes scouting seriously and have won many matches that some may count as an immediate loss due to who we are playing or overlook robots in alliance picking who are real assets to an alliance key to their win.
If everyone would stay seated in their seats while a match was in process and moved when it was over, no team would have a problem with scouting or seeing a match. There were very few instances when everyone was sitting down and no one had any problem seeing the field or the robots on the field during a match.
As for team spirit, if you would like to show it, follow the crowd or Bees if you call it. Team 33 is one team who was very courteous and had a group of kids to the side of the field who showed spirit during a match so they did not obstruct view and had another group in the stands who were either scouting or just watching the match. Thank you team 33! :)
I can not remember hearing the MC or game announcers mentioning sponsors unless the team happened to be sponsored by General Motors.... recognize the key sponsor of others.
I am not sure if it happened at Champs but at regionals we mention sponsors in the teams first match and their first match of Elims. There is just not enough time to do it all the time.
If the Einstein matches where held at center field then no one could see them. A better solution might be to put bigger screens at each field so that the matches could be watched from there. The camera work this year was the worst that I have seen in a long time. Too many close ups of dead or not doing anything robots while score is jumping like crazy. The end game video should include both towers not just the red as happened most of the matches I watched. Didn't know that the blue had hung until the score was shown. They have the capabilities they could do a split screen.
Announcers and Emcee's are liked and disliked for exactly the same reasons. I have had some tell me that they like my style of announcing and emceeing and others tell me that they don't. The point is that I know for a fact that neither of the jobs, if done properly, is very easy. I did not see all of the fields but i am sure that the volunteers did their best to make the event enjoyable and entertaining. BTW I believe that Blair has a huge job in making sure that the best available are the ones accepted. Blair is the Voice of FIRST and has a proven track record of being the very best.
Wednesdays could be improved if teams were allowed into the pits at 1:00 pm with inspections starting at 3:00 pm. Withe the amount of inspectors that we had it was a tough day and Thursday, even with double the inspectors, was tougher. I like the increased games but we need a bit more inspection time.
Seating. The biggest problem faced at all venues. My suggestion is that teams can sign up for reserved seats in the front rows of the venue or what might be some of the best seating. There would be a max of 6 scouts per team seated together. There would be a no standing rule during matches and people could only change out between matches. Result is that all teams would have equal scouting advantages and that all other teams could show their team spirit. Just an idea.
Peter Matteson
19-04-2010, 11:54
1) dear god can we please have ALL the awards given out BEFORE einstein? it made me want to cry having to wait for each award between elims, like seriously if you want FIRST to be popular dont make the best part of it unbearably boring
This would be a bad idea. The purpose of spreading the awards out like this is to give the robots a cool down and reset time where there is other stuff going on. We also need the longer break at the begining to charge batteries from divisional finals. If you knew the chaos going on down there it makes more sense. Yes its slow and some of the speeches are longer but the mix is way better for the teams involved than the alternative.
SmurfinLennon
19-04-2010, 11:54
I thoroughly enjoyed the event (but I was also team-less). I would comment that FIRST should note field awards ceremonies, as Curie's was still going on when they started the videos, and I'm sure many teams missed the Myth Busters. :(
I missed the Mythbusters :(
I can not remember hearing the MC or game announcers mentioning sponsors
It would have been hard to announce them for every match with the increased number of matches and reduced match cycle time without falling way behind schedule.
I cannot speak for other fields... but I can verify that on Newton the announcer did switch to including the school and/or first listed sponsor in the team intros for at least one cycle of matches to slow down our match cycle time and keep us (field) from getting too far ahead of the scheduled match times.
waialua359
19-04-2010, 12:18
There are teams who have won regionals who aren't exactly strong. Especially if they were at smaller events where the talent pool isn't as deep.
Not every team is going to be an 114, 469 or a 67.
The actual difference between them and everybody else isn't just the robot but knowing how to use those "lesser" robots to their advantage to win matches instead of just complaining about how crappy they are.
True to an extent, but not when they don't understand at this stage of the game that you don't touch the tower during the last 20 seconds 4 times and cost you a hard earned match. In that particular instance we reminded them about it prior.:(
Collin Fultz
19-04-2010, 12:26
I thought that everything worked VERY well in Atlanta this year. I admit, I was a little skeptical about how the Wednesday-Thursday would work. It didn’t work out as I expected; it worked out so much better. This is due to the teams and the volunteers. I think that five people per team is enough to do some good work. To me, any more and there would be people standing around or it would get too crowded. Here is what Cyber Blue had to do Wednesday night and accomplished with five people:
•Install (4) Swerve Drive Modules
•Install chain for Swerves
•Align Swerves
•Remove old roller
•Install new roller
•Install new pneumatic lines
•Install new compressor
•Install spike for lights
•Install Lights
•Install line tracking photo sensor
•Install Velcro strap for battery
•Encrypt radio
•Install radio
•Wire Swerve Module
•Wire all new sensors
•Wire new compressor
•Wire new spike
•Install camera
With a well thought out plan and each person knowing their roles, we got all of that done and had time to weigh and size our robot. I see adding more people as creating too much of a crowd in the pits. It was nice that very few teams were setting up their pits, or crowding the aisles. If anything, more time would be a better change than more people. A HUGE thanks goes to all of the Inspectors, Pit Admin Volunteers, and teams who made Wednesday night such a success.
Some other thoughts from the weekend:
I thought all of the announcers and MC’s were terrific. Whether it was Mark, Tyler, Emerson, JonDarr, Andy, or Sir Charles, each brought their own style to Archimedes. I’ve been on that side of things before. It’s TOUGH. Game Announcing is one of the hardest volunteer positions in FIRST. Those who GA at Championships are the best from each region of the country. You guys kept the energy up and were fantastic. There will always be dissenters. Keep up the good work!
Food is expensive in every stadium in every city. That’s all that needs to be said about it.
Teams saving seats was a little frustrating. Not enough to make me want to do anything about it, but if FIRST wants it to be a “rule” it needs to be enforced. Most teams I saw were pretty gracious about it if random people wanted to sit near them for a while. I have no problem with teams saving seats by putting people in every other seat or something like that, but teams saving seasts with towels, banners, tape, etc is a little silly. If you want to get the best seats, have your team get there early.
On teams standing up, again I think most teams do this the right way, and if you have a problem with it, go talk to their team personally. It’s amazing how people think that an appropriate response to someone standing in front of them is to yell at them. A team stood up in front of us for their first match on Friday. I calmly went up, after their match, and told an adult in a team shirt that people behind them (not just the row behind, but most of the section) couldn’t see when they stood and asked if they wouldn’t mind sitting during the match. The mentor agreed and apologized and spoke to his students. It was never a problem again. It wasn’t a surprise when this same team received a pretty major award Saturday afternoon.
Overall, I thought the entire weekend was fantastic. Opening and closing ceremonies weren’t terribly long. The crowds were great, the volunteers were amazing, and the matches were exciting.
Thank you to those who have made Atlanta such a great host city since 2004. Now, on to St. Louis!
Jared Russell
19-04-2010, 12:30
One more that I remembered:
Media Passes should be just that - used for TEAM MEDIA PERSONNEL ONLY! Many teams seemed to think that it was their excuse to put a scout/coach/mechanic on the field all day.
Moreover, the experience of coming out of the tunnel into the dome is something that is awesome to behold for the first time, and something that only a handful of students per team usually get to do. Why not make media passes a STUDENTS ONLY institution?
JaneYoung
19-04-2010, 12:35
Why not make media passes a STUDENTS ONLY institution?
Many students don't have camera equipment nor do their teams. We've been very lucky to have a parent on the team the past couple of years who brings his camera equipment and is willing to spend his time at the Championship taking photos of everything - not just the team. It's the first time in our team's history that we have had that luxury and that consistency with getting the job done. He would also switch out with a student who wanted to go down and take some photos with his (the student's) camera - but our parent was the main photographer last year. I'd hate to see that opportunity disappear.
Jane
Jared Russell
19-04-2010, 12:38
Many students don't have camera equipment, nor do their teams. We've been very lucky to have a parent on the team the past couple of years who brings his camera equipment and is willing to spend his time at the Championship taking photos of everything - not just the team. It's the first time in our team's history that we have had that luxury and that consistency with getting the job done. He would also switch out with a student who wanted to go down and take some photos with his (the student's) camera - but our parent was the main photographer last year. I'd hate to see that opportunity disappear.
Jane
Jane,
All good points - I can see now that there are reasons why adults would need to be media personnel for some teams. Notwithstanding, I would still like the intent of the media passes to be enforced on the field.
JaneYoung
19-04-2010, 12:47
Jane,
All good points - I can see now that there are reasons why adults would need to be media personnel for some teams. Notwithstanding, I would still like the intent of the media passes to be enforced on the field.
Agreed, Jared, and I started to say this in the first post and will add - in the distant past, we had students who abused the media pass privilege and it was frustrating. They would have access to some great shots and have the media pass but the camera would be dangling around their neck. At the end of a competition, there would be no photos. We improved in that area as far as making sure the people who volunteer to use the media pass - understand its one and only purpose.
I can understand that everyone wants access to the field(s) and to be around so many cool people and wonderful teams but - if they don't serve a purpose or have a valid reason for being near the field, they should not be there. This stance does not include VIPs. It must be thrilling for them to see everything close up and they serve a very important purpose. :) Well, the true VIPs do.
Jane
mtaman02
19-04-2010, 13:27
5. The practice fields. We were surprised (and the volunteers confessed that they were surprised too) when the fields were shut down during elimination alliance selection and disassembled! A number of robots (I counted an easy dozen) came to the fields to check their robots or make small fixes but were turned away.
***Reguarding the Practice Field***
Yea, FIRST doesn't do this just for the Championship it's also done at the Regionals as well. I assisted with the running of the 2 Practice Fields back in '09 at Championships and while it is unfair to the teams, I had to close the fields when my boss (the head FTA) said to. I think the chief reasons for closing the fields during the Alliance Pairing / start of elimination rounds is to make sure Teams have enough time to get to their pit after the pairings to pack up if need be. We all have participated in one or more events and no oh to well that sometimes the way we pack things the first time might not pack the same way the second time. So all FIRST is really doing is making sure the teams have more then enough time to re-group and properly / securely pack their crates. It's nothing personal its more like assurance. I've had many teams (your lucky you only saw easily a dozen - I had up to 50 last year or more) come up to the field I was on and had to tell teams no.
As far as Practice Field Scheduling. I created a Schedule sheet in Word on a computer so I can keep track of Teams coming on and off. I had a Team of maybe 2-3 volunteers working one field and I had a fellow FTA and her 3 volunteers working the other field. We setup a schedule from the very minute pits open down to the final 20 minutes that pits would start to be closing (the remaining 20 minutes we used were to clean and repair the field) For lunch we just rotated out because we felt the 30 minutes on my field which was being used heavily would've hurt some teams for testing. We did our best to give each team like 4 practice rounds spaced out so that all teams can run the field after that then we told teams to check in every so often if they wanted to fill in. We had alot of teams who just sat in Queue by the field waiting b/c from time to time the Playing fields would either move ahead or behind schedule and we took those teams off and moved them to the next slot or off the page completely till they came and talked to us after their official match. We let each team run for an unheard of 10 minutes - we the volunteers screwed up on that simply b/c we didn't give ourselves any in between setup time and would often slip behind ourselves. Next year when I hope to run both fields again I hope to run half that time b/c even 5 - 6 minutes is more then enough because we have to acct. for Robots linking with the practice field electronics.
The one thing we didn't allow on the fields was more then 6 robots at a time b/c of the serious trouble we could've gotten in plus the huge safety risk involved since the field was only built around 6 and the added regolith made it that much more slippery.
I say overall in '09 the practice fields were run quite well with little to no complaints from the teams (and thats managing nearly 130+ teams on one field).
I was suppose to run both fields again this year as the attendant / FTAA but couldn't make it due to budget and lodging issues + work release time. Next year I should be able to attend providing I can meet all my obligations and so long as you guys are happy with the way I run it then I'll be back again year after year. I've worked as Queuing in all areas and now as FTAA so I have a pretty good handle on running things on or close to schedule with light tech support w/ little help except from fellow volunteers (meaning 1/2 - 1/4 of the guidance from my FTA boss).
I agree about the media pass. I lost count how many times I saw students/adults with media pass, but lacked a camera or any of the sort. This is frustrating especially when the VIP/Media area in front of the field was pretty much packed on Galileo Friday morning.
I'm not sure how FIRST could enforce this much during the event other then highly stressing what the media pass is for.
[FTC]
The awesome --
The FTA's, Emcee's, Field queuers, and Refs were all very good and very enthusiastic about what they were doing. It was a lot of fun to work with them. They also didn't mind us coming in and sweeping the field during lunch and in the morning so our drive train got more traction due to less junk on the field.
The good, in a backwards way --
The pit queuers, no matter how frustrated we were with them, kept up in their diligence with pushing us out to the Ga Dome 45 minutes before a match. Eventually we thought about moving our pits out there since we were only back in our pits for 30 minutes at a time. Towards the end of Friday though, all of it worked out well when we left the pits an hour early and sat behind the black curtain for 50 minutes because the queuer told us to. The good part about this was that it gave me the time I needed to photograph alot of the passing FRC robots and also talk to the teams about specific details that our FRC team hadn't been able to figure out. Many thanks to Chris Fultz on 234 for the swerve explanation since I had to miss the conference due to being in queue so much.
The bad --
The inspection process took two hours because of the lines. We offered to help with inspections since I did them at a local event, yet our offers were rejected. Finally, after standing in line for an hour and a half, they added some inspectors who didn't really examine the robots and simply gave us check marks if we answered "yes". The huge delays caused us to miss two of the conferences we wanted to attend. One might cite the old saying "Get there earlier since the early bird gets the worm." but that simply circumvents the larger problem of inspecting 100 teams in a timely manner and thus I would reply "If every worm got there early the birds would have a field day!"
The ugly --
I polled the students after Wednesday and Thursday just to see how things were going on the judging front. Not a single judge asked them about their robot design during the judging session, and only one asked them about it during the day on Thursday. Additionally, I learned that the judges in the session kept driving home the point that FTC teams need to differentiate themselves from their FRC counterparts in everything from fund raising to outreach. Our FTC kids took the forefront of outreach into their own hands with FLL mentoring and CyberDawn this year, yet in what universe does it remotely make sense for them to completely separate their finances from an associated FRC team? I wish the judging process were more transparent in this regard; if we don't even stand a chance since we have an FRC team then I'd rather not let the students put so much effort into giving the judges information that they're just going to throw away.
Mark McLeod
19-04-2010, 14:03
For the most part I'd rather have an adult do the media camera work.
Some students do very well, but for us at least they have been few and far between over the years. I've had the same experience as Jane. I'd send out student media and get back nothing, terribly composed shots, or clowning around with the camera that gave us nothing to work with for the team DVD or end-of-year slideshow.
I do not like, nor do I support witch hunts for people who did not take the Media badge seriously. Sniping is a poor sport. I have to admit, I have sent students out onto the dome floor on occasion just so they would get an experience they never would get unless they happened to qualify for the drive team. They carried a camera, but I did not expect to get any photos back. I firmly believe it's a poor example for the students for them to be taught to look at and disapprove of how other teams decide to operate in any instance.
I witnessed some bias and personally experienced uncalled for false conclusions while I was wearing our team Media pass on the field.
I got snide comments from the queuer about not acting as a coach or mechanic or whatever often while I was out there. I still took more than 20 GB of photos in Atlanta. I really like to take photos.
I promise I took no part in alliance discussions, I am a terrible mechanic, and I did not reprogram anything while in the Dome. I did get dragged onto a different field by an FTA to fix something just because I happened to be down on the Dome floor.
My camera rides on my belt or in the palm of my hand, and I probably looked like I wasn't carrying one half the time. I don't bring my big rig to Atlanta, but I have a pretty good HD, 12megapixel, 12X optical. Our best equipment with the bulky lenses was used in the stands by our main team photographer, because the designated media shooting areas were terrible on the field. The Media had to stand in and amongst the carts and I have banged and bruised shins for my trouble.
---------------------
That's one improvement I'd like to see in St. Louis. The Media shooting area at field level was completely obstructed by the mass of traffic routed between it and the playing field. We always have the necessary refs of course, but field attendants without apparent duties (not fielding escaped balls) wandered randomly and stood blocking the photographers. Then all the robots for the next match crossed and parked in the same area completely blocking all photography.
I understand the necessity for keeping the matches moving by getting the next robots into place to go onto the field, but some consideration of photography sight lines would be welcomed.
Perhaps a front section to the side in the elevated stands reserved for team photographers only while their teams for in a match - no sitting. Maybe risers up against the stadium wall to raise the photographers and their tripods.
A note on the judges… We had a small contingent this year and could not staff our pit to wait for the random arrival of judge interviewers. However, two judges were kind enough to track us down on the field and corral our drive team after a match to give them the opportunity to discuss their robot with them. I'd like very much to thank them for their over and above attention to duty.
And Northrop Grumman as a sponsor of 294 was mentioned almost every time Beach Cities were announced on Einstein. I took notice because that's where I work. :)
And Northrop Grumman as a sponsor of 294 was mentioned almost everytime the Beach Bots were announced on Einstein. I took notice because that's where I work. :)Psst... Beach Bots are 330. 294 is Beach Cities Robotics.
You're not the first or the last to make that one.
Alpha Beta
19-04-2010, 14:08
I love the idea of having a 4th robot to switch out for the elimination rounds of the world championship. It would add a whole new level of strategy. 2992, a great looping robot went unselected in eliminations. We didn't select them because head to head with 469 that strategy would not have held up. We needed 888 (which was no longer with us by the time we faced off against 469) to use their excellent programers to try to stop 469 from lodging in the tower and then keep up the defensive pressure. Now if I could have used 2992 in quarters and semis when our offense was dominant and then brought in 888 as a defensive specialist for the division finals... As a strategist my head is spinning with the possibilities.
The serpentine draft would again favor the top alliances with the extra pick. I'm ok with that.
The field crew would need to be given a card from each alliance stating which robot is sitting out as soon as the previous match is over so that they can program the field and we don't have a situation of one team waiting for the other to setup before they make their decision.
It allows more teams a chance to still be in the game and gives the potential for a 4th World Champion each year.
I would add that the division winners cannot take their 4th robot to Einstein unless they played them in at least one game during the division elimination rounds... No other subs will be offered for failed robots.
Any team taking a 4th robot to Einstein must play them in at least 1 game to win the world championship. This would mean that in the Einstein finals the winner of the first match would have to sub in their 4th robot if they have not played them previously on Einstein. If that happens to make them lose then their opponents would be forced into a similar situation if they have not played their 4th robot earlier. This would include a robot that broke in division play. (Better have a good pit crew. There ought to be enough time during Dean's speech to fix just about anyones robot. :D )
Mark McLeod
19-04-2010, 14:25
Psst... Beach Bots are 330. 294 is Beach Cities Robotics.
You're not the first or the last to make that one.
Sorry, Eric.
I spent the weekend a pit away from you guys and your name just sticks.:)
I frankly don't have much to complain about. Most everything was great, just a couple things could be delta'd. MCs, I'm not talking about style, merely accurate information, even if Michigan is now in a different system. When did 2337 win the Michigan Regional? Actually, when has there ever been a Michigan Regional? There were also a couple comments about the Detroit Regional, etc. It's not really a problem, but huh?
Pit distance was annoying but that's been fixed. As said, food rules, while unfortunate, can't really be changed. More than 5 people in the pits on Wednesday would be nice. Everything else was great, I felt.
I have some positive and some negative observations. Hopefully we can continue to improve the championship experience by sharing these thoughts!
Positives:
Starting inspections and work on Wed night and starting matches on Thursday afternoon. This went, in my opinion, tremendously well. I think this change made a drastic improvement to the experience of many teams. I hope this is here to stay. Also, thank you to all of the volunteers who helped make this last minute addition possible!
Having more room in the pits. There was more space used in the giant hall this year and it made everything easier from moving through the pits to finding all of the "goodies" stashed throughout in booths and displays to being able to easily visit the FTC and FLL areas.
Negatives:
It seems that the four divisions field crews have a "race" each year to see who can finish their qual matches the earliest, with the prize bieng invited to be the field crew on einstein. I may be way of base here but from my observations it appears that this is the case. While this may be a good way to keep the volunteers entertained, I strongly feel that this creates a situation where rules and policies can be bent and the experience of teams can suffer. Teams work really hard to get to the Championship event. This "race" against the other divisions can detract from the teams experience and lead teams to feel as if the field crew believes the teams experience comes second to accelerating the schedule to finish early.
My second gripe is not Championship specific except that I feel that there should be consistency among ref calls across the board. A team should not be left scratching their head when presented with a ruling that seemed obvious. Specifically I am referring to an instance where the plastic cover to the field gate came off and was pushed in front of our tower. It interfered with our drive system and prevented us from reaching the tower to hang in a match that we lost 8-7. I can't think of a more clear example of a field failure, which should have resulted in a replay. The head ref informed us that we should not have driven over it. I beg to differ as we had a single path to the tower and it was blocked by this piece of the field that broke off. We may not have been able to elevate for the win, but would shure have appreciated the opportunity to try.
Anyhow, in general I thought that this was one of the bet championship events ever. I hope that it continues to move this way!
Rob
hipsterjr
19-04-2010, 16:47
This isn't really about FIRST, but more about the event staff: Seeing as my team wasn't in the finals and the lower seats are reserved, we all made our way to the upper deck. The problem was that I had a segway and my friend had two small children in strollers. All ramps and elevators were blocked off. It took 30min and the event staff supervisor escorting us just to be able to sit with my team upstairs:mad:. It was very frustrating.
Tom Line
19-04-2010, 17:01
Negatives:
It seems that the four divisions field crews have a "race" each year to see who can finish their qual matches the earliest, with the prize bieng invited to be the field crew on einstein. I may be way of base here but from my observations it appears that this is the case. While this may be a good way to keep the volunteers entertained, I strongly feel that this creates a situation where rules and policies can be bent and the experience of teams can suffer. Teams work really hard to get to the Championship event. This "race" against the other divisions can detract from the teams experience and lead teams to feel as if the field crew believes the teams experience comes second to accelerating the schedule to finish early.
My second gripe is not Championship specific except that I feel that there should be consistency among ref calls across the board. A team should not be left scratching their head when presented with a ruling that seemed obvious. Specifically I am referring to an instance where the plastic cover to the field gate came off and was pushed in front of our tower. It interfered with our drive system and prevented us from reaching the tower to hang in a match that we lost 8-7. I can't think of a more clear example of a field failure, which should have resulted in a replay. The head ref informed us that we should not have driven over it. I beg to differ as we had a single path to the tower and it was blocked by this piece of the field that broke off. We may not have been able to elevate for the win, but would shure have appreciated the opportunity to try.
Regarding your first negative comment: we noticed a decided "push" by the field crew as well. Point of fact, in the eliminations we had all three of our robots on our alliance break at nearly the same time. Two kickers and one pneumatic system. In all three instances, the refs were pushing to immediately get back on the field and play.
In one case, a timeout was called and the refs started yelling at us to get on the field with more than a minute remaining.
Indeed, during the eliminations with all the ties our team went through we were on the field for 7 (SEVEN!) consecutive matches. Even after using an air compressor to blow off the engines and compressed air cans upside down (instant liquid air) our torque had dropped too low to be able to turn the robot easily - the driver had to rock the bot to get it to turn.
If the qualification matches need to go fast, that's fine. The eliminations need to slow down a bit: teams need a little cool off time! Especially when running that many consecutive matches.
Regarding the plastic panels on the field, we knocked those off this year no fewer than a dozen times. I was a little shocked that they still hadn't fastened them on, even in the championships. At one point in the eliminations we knocked yet another of the gate panels off, and the corner of our robot got wedged on the vertical edge of the foot plate. We pulled loose.....luckily. So I agree with you there.
Andy Grady
19-04-2010, 17:03
Negatives:
It seems that the four divisions field crews have a "race" each year to see who can finish their qual matches the earliest, with the prize bieng invited to be the field crew on einstein. I may be way of base here but from my observations it appears that this is the case. While this may be a good way to keep the volunteers entertained, I strongly feel that this creates a situation where rules and policies can be bent and the experience of teams can suffer. Teams work really hard to get to the Championship event. This "race" against the other divisions can detract from the teams experience and lead teams to feel as if the field crew believes the teams experience comes second to accelerating the schedule to finish early.
Let me shed a little light on this because I think there is some misinformation here. While it is correct that field crews on each field are competing to get to Einstein, it is not because they are trying to finish early. It actually has more to do with staying exactly on schedule. The objective is to get each field as close to the scheduled turnaround time as possible. As a matter of fact, we even had to slow down on Galileo in order to get back on track. Fact is, the fields need to stay on schedule because of a multitude of reasons. These reasons (and the hustle to get done) would remain reguardless of the field crew incentive. Volunteers work extremely hard at Championships. Many of them spend alot of their own money to be there for you. I feel that it important to throw them a bone every once in a while. Every volunteer wants to be a part of Einstein, but very few can. It is great motivation to keep going, because it is such a difficult weekend to get through.
Great job this weekend Rob! Hope this explanation helps.
Negatives:
It seems that the four divisions field crews have a "race" each year to see who can finish their qual matches the earliest, with the prize bieng invited to be the field crew on einstein. I may be way of base here but from my observations it appears that this is the case. While this may be a good way to keep the volunteers entertained, I strongly feel that this creates a situation where rules and policies can be bent and the experience of teams can suffer. Teams work really hard to get to the Championship event. This "race" against the other divisions can detract from the teams experience and lead teams to feel as if the field crew believes the teams experience comes second to accelerating the schedule to finish early.
We are encouraged to do six minute turn around times at every event whether or not there is some prize offered for accomplishing this.
Would you have rather have the event run til 9 every night?
Nawaid Ladak
19-04-2010, 17:25
Two suggestions I might make to solve both he Media Issue and my take on the 4 team alliance.
1. Why not just give out a badge saying "+1" or "Extra" instead of labeling a badge "Media". These people could still be used as media, but can also be scouts, mechanics or coaches. I think this would solve the problem of people going out on to the field. Personally, i don't cre if you have a media badge on the field as long as i see a camera.
2. The 4 Team Alliance would be awesome, You can switch out teams as needed. there are so many different types of robots and various strategies during the competition that i cannot see 3 robots that would be ideal on a alliance in ALL of these situations. I'll just wait until a team does it with three and then worry about imposing a rule of some sort.
while we're on the topic of strategy, Wouldn't it be nice if the #1 alliance could pick which alliance from #5-#8 they wanted to play. sometimes that #8 alliance can be scary to go up against (I know this year it wasn't, but it previous years it has been). The #2, #3 and #4 would follow the same process. I also think reseeding after the 1st round would be something FIRST could look into. here is an example why
1--------3--------2
8---8---------7---7
-------8 v 3 -------
4---4---------3---3
5-----------------6
I think it would have been fair for the 3 alliance to face the 8 alliance in the semi's and then face the winner of the 4/7 matchup in the finals (The 7 alliance gave the 3 alliance a tougher fight in the semi's at FL).
ChristinaR
19-04-2010, 18:28
As a couple folks have already mentioned, some teams do seem to like using a team media badge to have an extra mentor or student on the floor. I personally spotted a few. I think it's unfortunate that teams choose to "cheat" like that, and don't even care to hide it (not carrying a camera of any variety). It's especially bad to see those with the badges with their hands inside the robot making adjustments. What does this say to the students on the team about playing fair?
Also on the topic of media: there was a lack of consistency amongst the divisions' fields and even volunteers in each division regarding where I could stand. By (I think) Friday, all FRC fields had drawn lines that the media and other spectators had to stand behind. However, there was inconsistency regarding what kind of media. I had a media badge with my name and company and was told to stay behind the line many times. Other times, a volunteer would say, "Oh no, you're national media, you can go wherever you want here." I'm still not sure which is correct, but to avoid conflict (some volunteers were less than GP about this) I stayed behind the given line, even if that meant getting less photos or having less angles to shoot. I understand that because I'm college-age I may be initially thought of as team media, but the badges are quite different in appearance.
1. Why not just give out a badge saying "+1" or "Extra" instead of labeling a badge "Media". These people could still be used as media, but can also be scouts, mechanics or coaches. I think this would solve the problem of people going out on to the field. Personally, i don't cre if you have a media badge on the field as long as i see a camera.
If FIRST were to do this, no team would have media on the field.
I don't quite understand why the Dean's List ceremony took place at Centennial Olympic Park. There are a reason these deserving kids got the award, let them bask in the glory of having it being announced in front of the Championship attendees in the dome, just like having it announced in front of everyone at the regional.
With regards to open bids vs. only merit-based slots for teams: The open bids keep the divisions diverse. It also gives a team a chance to go who may not have qualified at a regional event. This can keep the students interested and excited in FIRST. If FIRST only allowed merit-based teams to register, I would have never gone to Championship in my years as a student, and I can say for sure that it was my first time stepping into the Georgia Dome that got me truly hooked. I wouldn't want to deny this to teams who are financially prepared, but can't quite win their way there.
With all that being said, it was a great event! Onward to St. Louis! :)
Chris is me
19-04-2010, 19:39
I think it would be cool if FIRST gave an extra "non drive team" badge for the field, and then strictly enforced the media pass rules. The extra person could be a team tactician, which many teams offboard from their drive coach, or maybe just any student who wants to get on the dome floor and watch a match from it. This would encourage people to use the "media pass" badge as intended while still giving teams a bit of flexibility on field since the Championship field and pits are so far away.
I think it would be cool if FIRST gave an extra "non drive team" badge for the field, and then strictly enforced the media pass rules. The extra person could be a team tactician, which many teams offboard from their drive coach, or maybe just any student who wants to get on the dome floor and watch a match from it. This would encourage people to use the "media pass" badge as intended while still giving teams a bit of flexibility on field since the Championship field and pits are so far away.
The last thing we need is even more people down on the overcrowded field area. You know how hard it is to maintain the flow of an event when you have people standing around all over the place right where you have to get robots on and off the field?
Keep them iin the stands and the pits where they belong and out of the way of the actual event so we can get the actual business of running the event done.
This isn't really about FIRST, but more about the event staff: Seeing as my team wasn't in the finals and the lower seats are reserved, we all made our way to the upper deck. The problem was that I had a segway and my friend had two small children in strollers. All ramps and elevators were blocked off. It took 30min and the event staff supervisor escorting us just to be able to sit with my team upstairs:mad:. It was very frustrating.
I had a similar experience. I was in a wheelchair due to a recently broken ankle, and the only elevator we could find was one that went through a vip room. I was told I had to get credentials to be able to get off of the elevator on the second level, where my team was sitting. It was a very upsetting experience and it also took us 30 minutes just to be able to go up one level.
I had a similar experience. I was in a wheelchair due to a recently broken ankle, and the only elevator we could find was one that went through a vip room. I was told I had to get credentials to be able to get off of the elevator on the second level, where my team was sitting. It was a very upsetting experience and it also took us 30 minutes just to be able to go up one level.
This isn't really about FIRST, but more about the event staff: Seeing as my team wasn't in the finals and the lower seats are reserved, we all made our way to the upper deck. The problem was that I had a segway and my friend had two small children in strollers. All ramps and elevators were blocked off. It took 30min and the event staff supervisor escorting us just to be able to sit with my team upstairs. It was very frustrating.
The staff was no doubt following policy set forth by the Georgia Dome management and are expected to follow that to the letter most likely with dire consequences (like being fired) if they make any exceptions.
Like all arenas they have strict and sometimes unexplainable rules that frustrate patrons. I would try to get them to contact someone in management (politely as possible. These guys are just making a living. No reason to make their experience with FIRST folks a miserable one) and explain your situation and maybe a compromise can be reached.
ChristinaR
19-04-2010, 20:03
The last thing we need is even more people down on the overcrowded field area. You know how hard it is to maintain the flow of an event when you have people standing around all over the place right where you have to get robots on and off the field?
Keep them iin the stands and the pits where they belong and out of the way of the actual event so we can get the actual business of running the event done.
I agree. Curie was especially crowded during eliminations, what with team media, regular media, and VIPs coming to see 1114/469 play. In my opinion, there are enough people down on the field as it is.
SprocketGuy
19-04-2010, 20:28
I am a teacher/mentor for one of the Canadian teams and we just arrived back this afternoon from a very long and eventful trip home from Atlanta. I just wanted to add in a few observations that my students and I discussed regarding this incredible event.
This was the first visit to the Championships for team 1075 and I will say that we did purchase our way to the event. This has been 8 years in the making and the reward was very sweet! I would definitely like to say we support the option of buying in to the tournament because up here in Canada we have two powerhouse teams that deservedly dominate the award categories at our two regionals that earn your right to attend. (We were looking forward to a showdown between them in the Einstein finals, but it wasn't meant to be!) I'm not saying they can't be defeated but it's easier said than done and the option to buy in allowed us to reward our first group of students that started way back in grade 9 and will be moving on to greater things next year. Without the option we would have never been able to share this wonderful experience with everyone.
As first time attendee we were awestruck by the size and quality of the tournament. We had heard it was big, but words can not describe... People were very friendly and supportive, and we were impressed by the efficiency of the organizers. Everything ran like clockwork and we had a blast.
Two things that definitely came up as a criticism. One was the length of the Kamen speech during the finals. (I heard in retrospect that this is not uncommon.) I casually observed many members of my team and the teams around me get more and more disconnected as their attention wavered. I do believe some of the message was lost in the delivery, which is a shame because it was a positive one.
Second, and I only offer this up because it was discussed amongst my students, we did not feel the language used was as inclusive as it could have been for the international attendees. From the launch to the closing ceremonies, we found the message of many of the FIRST speakers to be very United States centric. Obviously the VAST majority of teams hail from the USA, but it's my belief, and those of my students, that FIRST could be a little better at acknowledging that this is a global program with many countries involved. There were teams that flew for as long as we drove to attend this tournament and that should be recognized.
These may be minor points, and apparently some have been discussed at length before, but I felt I should post the positives and the concerns that were raised by the team on the bus ride home.
Congratulations to everyone who participated. You made a lasting impression on our team.
Two things that definitely came up as a criticism. One was the length of the Kamen speech during the finals. (I heard in retrospect that this is not uncommon.) I casually observed many members of my team and the teams around me get more and more disconnected as their attention wavered. I do believe some of the message was lost in the delivery, which is a shame because it was a positive one.
I don't know if Dean has ever made it up to Canada so this may be your first time seeing the man in person. I see him at many events and all his speeches are long rambling affairs. Some love them others just wait for them to end.
waialua359
19-04-2010, 21:55
Hey,
you must be the guy that sat next to me in the stands. You brought up some good points that afternoon.
I am a teacher/mentor for one of the Canadian teams and we just arrived back this afternoon from a very long and eventful trip home from Atlanta. I just wanted to add in a few observations that my students and I discussed regarding this incredible event.
This was the first visit to the Championships for team 1075 and I will say that we did purchase our way to the event. This has been 8 years in the making and the reward was very sweet! I would definitely like to say we support the option of buying in to the tournament because up here in Canada we have two powerhouse teams that deservedly dominate the award categories at our two regionals that earn your right to attend. (We were looking forward to a showdown between them in the Einstein finals, but it wasn't meant to be!) I'm not saying they can't be defeated but it's easier said than done and the option to buy in allowed us to reward our first group of students that started way back in grade 9 and will be moving on to greater things next year. Without the option we would have never been able to share this wonderful experience with everyone.
As first time attendee we were awestruck by the size and quality of the tournament. We had heard it was big, but words can not describe... People were very friendly and supportive, and we were impressed by the efficiency of the organizers. Everything ran like clockwork and we had a blast.
Two things that definitely came up as a criticism. One was the length of the Kamen speech during the finals. (I heard in retrospect that this is not uncommon.) I casually observed many members of my team and the teams around me get more and more disconnected as their attention wavered. I do believe some of the message was lost in the delivery, which is a shame because it was a positive one.
Second, and I only offer this up because it was discussed amongst my students, we did not feel the language used was as inclusive as it could have been for the international attendees. From the launch to the closing ceremonies, we found the message of many of the FIRST speakers to be very United States centric. Obviously the VAST majority of teams hail from the USA, but it's my belief, and those of my students, that FIRST could be a little better at acknowledging that this is a global program with many countries involved. There were teams that flew for as long as we drove to attend this tournament and that should be recognized.
These may be minor points, and apparently some have been discussed at length before, but I felt I should post the positives and the concerns that were raised by the team on the bus ride home.
Congratulations to everyone who participated. You made a lasting impression on our team.
Originally Posted by hipsterjr View Post
This isn't really about FIRST, but more about the event staff: Seeing as my team wasn't in the finals and the lower seats are reserved, we all made our way to the upper deck. The problem was that I had a segway and my friend had two small children in strollers. All ramps and elevators were blocked off. It took 30min and the event staff supervisor escorting us just to be able to sit with my team upstairs. It was very frustrating.
I had a similar experience. I was in a wheelchair due to a recently broken ankle, and the only elevator we could find was one that went through a vip room. I was told I had to get credentials to be able to get off of the elevator on the second level, where my team was sitting. It was a very upsetting experience and it also took us 30 minutes just to be able to go up one level.
The staff was no doubt following policy set forth by the Georgia Dome management and are expected to follow that to the letter most likely with dire consequences (like being fired) if they make any exceptions.
Like all arenas they have strict and sometimes unexplainable rules that frustrate patrons. I would try to get them to contact someone in management (politely as possible. These guys are just making a living. No reason to make their experience with FIRST folks a miserable one) and explain your situation and maybe a compromise can be reached.
Ed is right. the GA Dome staff had a poster in each elevator of which badges could and could not go in that elevator. It's truly unfortunate that they couldn't make an exception for those in wheelchairs or with strollers, but those are the rules, and like Ed said, they could be fired for breaking those rules. I'm sure it's something to take into consideration with the St. Louis staff.
Funny story: Dean arrived in the VIP area in the middle of the day, and needed to be at an interview. He attempted to walk past the VIP check-in and past the GA Dome staff member who was guarding the VIP area. The man stopped Dean and said "I'm sorry, sir, but you can't come through here, you don't have a badge."
Dean's picture was up on a poster directly next to the guard's head. The FIRST staff pointed to it and told the guard, "No, you can let him through, it's OK.". The man shook his head and calmly said "No ma'am, I can't. He doesn't have a badge, and I'm not allowed to let anyone without a badge through. I'm just doing my job." Dean went over to the table, got his badge, and was let through for his interview- but not without shaking the staff member's hand and thanking him for doing his job.
gvarndell
19-04-2010, 23:09
Ed is right. the GA Dome staff had a poster in each elevator of which badges could and could not go in that elevator. It's truly unfortunate that they couldn't make an exception for those in wheelchairs or with strollers, but those are the rules, and like Ed said, they could be fired for breaking those rules. I'm sure it's something to take into consideration with the St. Louis staff.
And learning the right lessons for next year is is the important thing here, I think.
Does anybody think that, in their determination to keep the riffraff out of the VIP areas, FIRST intended that people in wheelchairs should have to grovel for permission to use an elevator?
I don't.
I think FIRST assumed that common sense and decency would prevail amongst the event staff - which it obviously didn't.
If my elderly mother-in-law is able to join us in St. Louis next year, I hope she will not be told she needs to climb 2 flights of stairs simply because she is not a VIP.
The "I was just doin' my job" thing doesn't really settle well with me on this.
Tom Line
20-04-2010, 01:13
Second, and I only offer this up because it was discussed amongst my students, we did not feel the language used was as inclusive as it could have been for the international attendees. From the launch to the closing ceremonies, we found the message of many of the FIRST speakers to be very United States centric.
The challenges facing the world are pretty much the same no matter what country you are from. Poverty. Disease. Clean water. Violence. Most of the messages Dean supplied in his speech could be applied to any country - from Brazil to the US to Australia to England. When I looked above the podium and saw the dozens of flags hanging there I considered just how much reach FIRST has.
Did you notice the different accents of the diffent speakers? I did and wondered if it had been done on purpose. I certainly hope it was, because it's another reminder just how small the world is and how big FIRST can be. I don't think they need to modify their words. I thought the message was spot on. I think they sent an excellent message when a team like the Panteras won a major award.
Don't focus on the fact that he used the US as an example. He lives here. In fact, most all of FIRST lives here. That doesn't make the message any less applicable.
If you want to feel included, just look at the flags above the stage and realize just how inclusive this whole thing called FIRST really is.
Ryan Gordon
20-04-2010, 03:58
As a couple folks have already mentioned, some teams do seem to like using a team media badge to have an extra mentor or student on the floor. I personally spotted a few. I think it's unfortunate that teams choose to "cheat" like that, and don't even care to hide it (not carrying a camera of any variety). It's especially bad to see those with the badges with their hands inside the robot making adjustments. What does this say to the students on the team about playing fair?
Is that really the spirit of FIRST? Isn't it more about being able to have fun and play with a working robot?
I know I would not want to compete in FIRST and put in all that sweat, energy, time, and money if that's the kind of connotation being portrayed to the students.
Let me also point out that if that is the case being made, subjection based on ID, then are you saying that it okay that a captain or a human player or a driver goes out and makes adjustments after they place it on the field? Why is the politic here being limited to media badges?
Should FIRST just disallow anyone touching the robot at all, except placement on the field and to turn it on, if this is the point being made?
Now that being said, this was the first time our team went to the nationals and I was very pleased overall in terms of how well the logistics were prepared and executed. I know I had a blast in the grand scheme of things.
Vikesrock
20-04-2010, 04:47
Is that really the spirit of FIRST? Isn't it more about being able to have fun and play with a working robot?
I know I would not want to compete in FIRST and put in all that sweat, energy, time, and money if that's the kind of connotation being portrayed to the students.
Let me also point out that if that is the case being made, subjection based on ID, then are you saying that it okay that a captain or a human player or a driver goes out and makes adjustments after they place it on the field? Why is the politic here being limited to media badges?
The focus is on media badges because those badges are intended for team media and are not intended for people working on the robot. If it was a "floor pass" or something of the sort perhaps things would be different.
If we openly allow people holding these passes to work on the robots, then we will be getting a lot less pictures out of these events as every competitive team will be replacing their media person with a pit crew member.
Members of the drive team have drive team badges which are distinct from the Media badges. Drive team members have always been allowed to work on the robot.
It's not that people don't want everyone to have a working robot, it's that they want to avoid an arms race of "how many pit crew members can we get on the field using various badges and credentials". Drive team and badged Pit Crew members work on the robot on the field, period. Keeps things simple and under control.
And learning the right lessons for next year is is the important thing here, I think.
Does anybody think that, in their determination to keep the riffraff out of the VIP areas, FIRST intended that people in wheelchairs should have to grovel for permission to use an elevator?
I don't.
I think FIRST assumed that common sense and decency would prevail amongst the event staff - which it obviously didn't.
If my elderly mother-in-law is able to join us in St. Louis next year, I hope she will not be told she needs to climb 2 flights of stairs simply because she is not a VIP.
The "I was just doin' my job" thing doesn't really settle well with me on this.
Would getting some one fired from their job in this economy sit better with you?
They have to stand there for hours handling hundreds of people all day long. If you have a problem with the standing orders they were given take it up with the management instead of putting some poor wage slave on the spot and jeopardizing their employment. That's why mangers are in those positions so they can make those decisions instead of the employees who are only supposed to enforce the rules.
gvarndell
20-04-2010, 07:40
Would getting some one fired from their job in this economy sit better with you?
I don't think I advocated for any action that would get someone fired.
Nor did I indicate I might find it satisfying if someone had been fired.
FIRST did not (I hope) expect the event staff to be so rigidly inconsiderate.
My only point here is that, next year, they need to anticipate exactly that.
Which is sad.
Astreios
20-04-2010, 08:21
Having attended a FIRST championship for the first time, I thought the competition was wonderful. It was obviously much bigger than the regionals and it was nice seeing what some of the best teams did.
I thought the venue was quite nice, especially with the pit area being so big. It was nice not sitting being in one place for the entire time. It was nice to be able to talk to so many people, as well. Especially those who participate in FIRST in the different areas of the world. Everyone was so polite. :)
I did find it interesting that there was a lot less cheering than at regionals I've been to, though. Maybe it's just my imagination. o.o
ChristinaR
20-04-2010, 09:21
Is that really the spirit of FIRST?
Playing by the rules? I think so.
FIRST spirit involves playing fair.
Isn't it more about being able to have fun and play with a working robot?
I entirely agree. However, not all teams see it in such a way. Many maintain an "in it to win it" attitude, which sometimes causes them to bend or break rules. Several teams I saw misusing a badge were in no danger of having a broken robot, but instead chose to have a technical mentor down on the floor to tweak the 'bot.
I know I would not want to compete in FIRST and put in all that sweat, energy, time, and money if that's the kind of connotation being portrayed to the students.
I don't understand. FIRST has designated a team media badge for team media use. I think it portrays the wrong ideas to a team's students to say it's OK to do anything to win.
Let me also point out that if that is the case being made, subjection based on ID, then are you saying that it okay that a captain or a human player or a driver goes out and makes adjustments after they place it on the field? Why is the politic here being limited to media badges?
Should FIRST just disallow anyone touching the robot at all, except placement on the field and to turn it on, if this is the point being made?
Members of the drive team could always work on the robot.
If a team could use a media badge anyway they wish, there would be no media. FIRST has a team media badge so that teams can have a photographer or videographer down on the field to document the team. Good photos can be especially helpful in promotional materials for teams looking to get new sponsors, or keep old ones. I've heard stories direct from mentors about how good pictures have helped get funding. I would hate to see a team miss out on a chance to get pictures of the team in action at the Championship because other team members decided that the media badge is best used by someone who can help fix the robot if needed.
mtaman02
20-04-2010, 09:22
Negatives:
It seems that the four divisions field crews have a "race" each year to see who can finish their qual matches the earliest, with the prize bieng invited to be the field crew on einstein. I may be way of base here but from my observations it appears that this is the case. While this may be a good way to keep the volunteers entertained, I strongly feel that this creates a situation where rules and policies can be bent and the experience of teams can suffer. Teams work really hard to get to the Championship event. This "race" against the other divisions can detract from the teams experience and lead teams to feel as if the field crew believes the teams experience comes second to accelerating the schedule to finish early.
FIRST and foremost because I keep forgetting to type it in my views are solely based on my personal experience as an Team Alumni / Volunteer and not on behalf of FIRST.
As far as this goes you have to keep rotating things in the back of your mind b/c what you say here is kind of loaded in a way.
Scheduling: FIRST handles what they want ---> FMS manages match scheduling
---> Show Ready manages the event as a whole and attempts to keep the whole event on time by constantly adjusting FIRST's expectations as needed.
So no matter which field finishes first you still need to wait for the rest before you can move onto the next phase of the event. FIRST would rather hear the fields are running on time safely then ahead / behind schedule which would cause a concern for safety all b/c a field thinks by finishing first they will go to Einstein. Carelessness and sacrificing a teams competing experience is not acceptable.
Field Races: I feel thats untrue. Division Volunteers are encouraged to work at a set pace according to FIRST's expectations on how quickly a field can be reset but not rush or bend the rules / policies to get the job done quicker. Think of it as 4 Regionals going on at once. Each field has their own FTA, Supv and Queuing Personnel etc... So each field operates independently of one another like a Regional Event and of course will naturally operate differently then one another. At the end of the last match or just before pairings The Supv's of their Fields gathers their respective crews and selects "X" amount of volunteers for the Einstein Crew (at least thats how they did it in '05 and '07). Those chosen were the ones who can reliably repair minor defects in the field w/o causing a distraction and those who can effectively and safely help move teams on and off the field. Field reset only takes 2 minutes at max. The rest of the time is used for Robot Linkup and last minute debugging if required. So this years reset expectations are a little faster in of itself and not the doing of the volunteers & how quickly they worked - It's just how the game was desgined. Volunteer as a Field Repair / Reset Crew member and you'll see what I mean. If I'm not mistaken the turnaround time between matches should've been 6 minutes + match run time. Thats pretty comfy. In the past it used to be a little more reset time due to the complexities of the game (more objects to be scored + different methods for scoring which = more items that have the ability to break). There's only 12 balls on the field this year - we just clear them out of your way so you don't trip and you place them before you leave your robot. So this years reset expectations were simple and quick from the get go. Next year the fields might not run as fast due to change in game and deisgn of key game features. So you have to take all of that in account. Thats probably (and I use that word loosely b/c no one person can really find out why FIRST does what they do) why FIRST ran this reocrd amount of matches this year - the game was simple enough to reset and they figured they could add 1/2 a day to the Qual. Schedule b/c of this years game features and # of teams competing - next year you might be back to Fri and Sat only competing and have a slower match cycle time. I've done Field Repair / Reset / Setup / Break Down / Queuing on all levels and FTAA - All jobs which revolve around a set schedule that FIRST outlines. At times you feel rushed but that could be because your behind 45 minutes and looking for innovative ways to regain some of that time lost for whatever reason. Sometimes it's unrecoverable but when ever I was told to help in the speeding up process we were never told to bend or break pre-set policies. We were always told to do the best we can to be on point when the buzzer sounds. As a team member you get to have fun playing at the event and experience everything - As a volunteer part of your particular job crew you get to experience how to work as one so that the team members can have a good time in experiencing everything. Nothing more nothing less
=) Hope your '10 off-season is awesome. ^_^
thefro526
20-04-2010, 09:32
Last year following the Championship I made this thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=856697#post856697
This year when my team didn't make eliminations I decided to do a bit of first hand research to see how easy it was to walk out into the dome during eliminations, and I found out it's really really easy. I found that all it takes is a Drive team badge (Doesn't have to be a team in the Eliminations) or a media pass. One of those two things will get you almost anywhere on the dome floor.
I don't know if there's an easy solution to this problem though. The only way I could see limiting access to the dome floor would be to give a list of all teams involved in the eliminations to the volunteers, and request that they get rid of anyone not involved.
I don't know if there's an easy solution to this problem though. The only way I could see limiting access to the dome floor would be to give a list of all teams involved in the eliminations to the volunteers, and request that they get rid of anyone not involved.
Colored dots on the buttons and passes might work.
thefro526
20-04-2010, 09:39
Colored dots on the buttons and passes might work.
You might be onto something. The only downfall to dots is the possible confusion with the Coach badge. New, brightly colored badges may also do the trick too, FIRST could give 7 Blank badges to each team involved in the Elimination matches, and those teams could label the badges appropriately.
Alan Anderson
20-04-2010, 15:27
I don't think I advocated for any action that would get someone fired.
Nor did I indicate I might find it satisfying if someone had been fired.
FIRST did not (I hope) expect the event staff to be so rigidly inconsiderate.
Early on, the staff did permit non-badged people to be escorted through the "badge only" checkpoints when it seemed appropriate. Later, this practice was explicitly prohibited by the people in charge. Someone who failed to enforce the restricted access policy would be in danger of losing his job.
musicspeaks
20-04-2010, 16:29
I think it would be great if there were screens posted out on the backdrop of each field of each of the other fields. Although, in some ways, this would be pointless and distracting, in others, it'd also be beneficial.
We do not get to see what is happening on the other fields due to scouting, but between matches, it'd be great to catch a glimpse of what is happening out there. And if it became a factor of it being distracting, it could be played only between matches, like the "commercials" they played this year, or in times of "field faults" where there is a little more down time.
Another GREAT time to see other matches (actually, where one of our mentors and I noticed the need for it) was during the eliminations--even if just scores were posted. We had a few scouters on each field, who couldn't even see how our own robot was doing, and we wanted to catch some of the action elsewhere as well.
Just a thought. maybe this causes more problems than it's worth, but I figured I'd toss it out there. :D
On a side note: THANKS FIRST! and everyone involved! This was my first and last year on my team. (Darn, joining as a senior. As soon as you fall in love with it, it goes away) It was an amazing experience and I wouldn't trade it for anything! I cannot believe there are so many people who have no idea what this organization is about, much like myself prior to this year, and I am going to be sure to continue spreading this new FIRST addiction of mine. :)
gvarndell
20-04-2010, 16:42
Early on, the staff did permit non-badged people to be escorted through the "badge only" checkpoints when it seemed appropriate. Later, this practice was explicitly prohibited by the people in charge. Someone who failed to enforce the restricted access policy would be in danger of losing his job.
By which people in charge? FIRST or arena management?
I'm just not getting the apparent notion that being in danger of losing one's job justifies being insensitive to the needs of people with disabilities.
And I'll say this... if some elderly person had fallen down the stairs, or died of a heart attack while climbing the stairs, because Joe-I'm-Just-Doing-My-Job wouldn't let that person on the elevator, Joe would have found himself between jobs anyway -- as a scapegoat.
Again...
I never suggested that anyone should do anything that would cause a firing or that I would derive pleasure from anyone getting fired.
And I never dismissed the possibility that insubordination could result in a firing.
None of that means I have to be complacent about the idiocy of it all.
dangerousdave
20-04-2010, 17:50
P.S. I respect the purpose of this thread. Thanks, Dave. I hope you are getting some of what you were asking for.Yes Jane, the comments I have seen so far are exactly what I was looking for. This thread was started primarily for the planners of Championship's for the next few years and to let the folks vent. Sorry that most of them so far appear to be negative but those comments can be made into a positive for St. Louis and beyond.
Dave
Bob Steele
20-04-2010, 18:04
I have thought about the issue of "buying your way into the championship"
I think that the attitude of many individuals about this is a little skewed.
First of all. EVERYONE buys there way into the championship. I know of quite a few teams that qualified at Regionals and didn't have the money to go... This is certainly true the further you get from Georgia...(or Missouri next year...)
The registration fee is just the initial roadblock... after that $5000, you have to pay for lodging... (not cheap) and you have to get there... (for a team from Seattle... that would an additional $400 minimum per student in airfare...)
Nothing in life is fair.... there is really no fair way to pick the best 360 teams... the way we do it now brings in 3 teams from each regional as "winners" but please don't tell me that they are the BEST three teams at the regional.... they are the representatives for that regionals... as simple as that... and they were the winners... But to think that they represent the best three teams is not necessarily true. They were the best alliances.... perhaps they should be competing as alliances at the CMP too?
How do we compare a winning alliance from a 30 team regional to one from a 60 team regional?
How do we compare teams winning a "weak" regional from those winning a "strong" regional (Whatever that means anyway...)
We qualify the Rookie All-Star, the Engineering Inspiration, and the Chairman's Award winner also... completely with no consideration given to how well they played on the field...
For everyone to think that CMP is about bringing the best 360 teams together is not reality.
We bring together the best of FIRST.... the qualifiers... the teams from the previous year... HOF teams...etc...
Why should we just have the best teams? Part of the learning we accomplish is figuring out how to deal with adversity.... on the field and off.... we work together.... we adapt... we overcome...
That is the essence of CMP..
I don't think anyone would argue that what we saw on Einstein wasn't a great example of FIRST engineering and team abilities.... I was proud of all the teams that managed to get there... Were they the best teams? That's an argument I won't participate in.... They definitely were the WINNERS and deserved to win... We all play within the rules to build a robot. We have rules that determine how we make alliances and how we play... we play within them too...
This is just like life.... we all strive to play with what we are given.... we do our best and someone comes out on top.... Congrats to the Winners!!!
I do think that this year was a difficult one for the building of robots... in my 7 years at CMP I have never seen quite this many teams struggle so much with having a competitive robot at CMP....
Is that bad? I don't think so... we all learned a great deal.... we competed like crazy... and we were all inspired to do even more....
Our team has paid our way into the championships for 3 years straight.... We do it because we HAVE to get our arrangements done early... just so we can have a target for our fundraising.
In those same three years we have managed to have 2 regional wins, an engineering inspiration award, and a chairman's award.... so we have ALSO qualified to attend every year... (Our first year we won a regional and were Rookie All-Star and also attended CMP in that year (2007).
Next year we will again try to sign up for CMP.... We hope to also qualify but we will still try to attend.
It is our goal every year... we learn so much from CMP that we can't possibly learn at our local regionals.
It would be a real shame to limit CMP to only teams that "WIN" regionals....
Many really GOOD robots and teams don't win qualifying awards every year.... it would certainly be a shame to not see a team because in that particular year they didn't win one of these awards.
We all know that winning a regional has quite a bit of luck in it....it is not a perfect system by any means.
But in the end.... that is not what FIRST is about.... FIRST is about inspiring students to pursue careers in science, engineering and technology....
What is MORE inspiring than coming to CMP and competing....
In the end there are +/- 360 winners at CMP... and 1800+ winners in all of FIRST....
Now on to 2011!! We will be better.... and I am sure you will too!!
See you all on the field in 2011!!
web_master_dpep
20-04-2010, 18:23
A few people on my team were suggesting during the finals, moving einstein to the middle of the arena and lowering the curtains. That way people can sit on either side of the arena and see/hear better.
I would like to do this to. And if they curtained all around the einstein field(like at kick-off) and drop it then the alliances make there way to the field it makes it look more of a ceremonie in itself. It would make that experience of just getting there that much more cooler. Many people say this is the super-bowl of brains, why not make something to show it is.
Kevyn H.
20-04-2010, 21:45
It seems that the four divisions field crews have a "race" each year to see who can finish their qual matches the earliest, with the prize bieng invited to be the field crew on einstein. I may be way of base here but from my observations it appears that this is the case. While this may be a good way to keep the volunteers entertained, I strongly feel that this creates a situation where rules and policies can be bent and the experience of teams can suffer. Teams work really hard to get to the Championship event. This "race" against the other divisions can detract from the teams experience and lead teams to feel as if the field crew believes the teams experience comes second to accelerating the schedule to finish early.
Rob
Let me shed a little light on this because I think there is some misinformation here. While it is correct that field crews on each field are competing to get to Einstein, it is not because they are trying to finish early. It actually has more to do with staying exactly on schedule. The objective is to get each field as close to the scheduled turnaround time as possible. As a matter of fact, we even had to slow down on Galileo in order to get back on track. Fact is, the fields need to stay on schedule because of a multitude of reasons. These reasons (and the hustle to get done) would remain reguardless of the field crew incentive. Volunteers work extremely hard at Championships. Many of them spend alot of their own money to be there for you. I feel that it important to throw them a bone every once in a while. Every volunteer wants to be a part of Einstein, but very few can. It is great motivation to keep going, because it is such a difficult weekend to get through.
Great job this weekend Rob! Hope this explanation helps.
Field Races: I feel thats untrue. Division Volunteers are encouraged to work at a set pace according to FIRST's expectations on how quickly a field can be reset but not rush or bend the rules / policies to get the job done quicker. Think of it as 4 Regionals going on at once. Each field has their own FTA, Supv and Queuing Personnel etc... So each field operates independently of one another like a Regional Event and of course will naturally operate differently then one another. At the end of the last match or just before pairings The Supv's of their Fields gathers their respective crews and selects "X" amount of volunteers for the Einstein Crew (at least thats how they did it in '05 and '07). Those chosen were the ones who can reliably repair minor defects in the field w/o causing a distraction and those who can effectively and safely help move teams on and off the field. Field reset only takes 2 minutes at max. The rest of the time is used for Robot Linkup and last minute debugging if required. So this years reset expectations are a little faster in of itself and not the doing of the volunteers & how quickly they worked - It's just how the game was desgined. Volunteer as a Field Repair / Reset Crew member and you'll see what I mean. If I'm not mistaken the turnaround time between matches should've been 6 minutes + match run time. Thats pretty comfy. In the past it used to be a little more reset time due to the complexities of the game (more objects to be scored + different methods for scoring which = more items that have the ability to break). There's only 12 balls on the field this year - we just clear them out of your way so you don't trip and you place them before you leave your robot. So this years reset expectations were simple and quick from the get go. Next year the fields might not run as fast due to change in game and deisgn of key game features. So you have to take all of that in account. Thats probably (and I use that word loosely b/c no one person can really find out why FIRST does what they do) why FIRST ran this reocrd amount of matches this year - the game was simple enough to reset and they figured they could add 1/2 a day to the Qual. Schedule b/c of this years game features and # of teams competing - next year you might be back to Fri and Sat only competing and have a slower match cycle time. I've done Field Repair / Reset / Setup / Break Down / Queuing on all levels and FTAA - All jobs which revolve around a set schedule that FIRST outlines. At times you feel rushed but that could be because your behind 45 minutes and looking for innovative ways to regain some of that time lost for whatever reason. Sometimes it's unrecoverable but when ever I was told to help in the speeding up process we were never told to bend or break pre-set policies. We were always told to do the best we can to be on point when the buzzer sounds. As a team member you get to have fun playing at the event and experience everything - As a volunteer part of your particular job crew you get to experience how to work as one so that the team members can have a good time in experiencing everything. Nothing more nothing less
There was definitely misinformation here. I was queuing on Newton. We were told Thursday that if we were the fastest crew that we would get to go to Einstein. (I guess that could have meant either first to finish or best turnaround time, which are kinda the same, right?)
Needless to say, we all really wanted to go, so we tried really hard to keep matches moving fast and have a good turnaround time.
I know for a fact that the Newton field finished about 2 matches before all the other fields on Thursday, about 1 match ahead Friday morning, about 1-2 ahead Friday Night, and about the same Saturday morning. And I know that we averaged only maybe 3 minutes ahead of schedule.
We discovered Saturday morning that we had not been selected to go to Einstein. None of us could figure out why, because we had always finished early, we had an awesome turnaround time, and the only reason I believe we were ahead of the other fields was mostly because they were having some field issues.
Our crew was extremely frustrated and bitter about this. Not to say whoever got selected didn't deserve it, but why the heck were we pushing so fast if that didn't matter anyway?
Our crew did honestly believe it was a race, plus we wanted to have the best turnaround time. However, we never did anything to make it unsafe for the teams. Believe me, I know how important safety is, and if I saw that we were making teams unsafe, I would have said something to our Lead Queuer or someone else.
robobandmom
21-04-2010, 00:16
Much has been posted about the seating situation and I wanted to give you my perspective. 2010 was my son's team's first appearance at Championships. We had a wonderful time, and were very inspired by all the wonderful people we met. However, I was disappointed and frustrated with the teams that saved large blocks of seats. On our field, there were many large teams that saved 4-5 ROWS of seats, (18 seats per row) while they only had about 20 kids actually in the seats. My son's team is rather small and we did not need many seats, but it was still nearly impossible to get seats. I did ask for a few seats from some of these large teams, once I was successful but the rest of the time I was told 'No, we need ALL our seats." We actually asked for ONE seat from a team during finals on our field, and were told no even when many of their seats were open and remained open until the end of finals. ONE POSSIBLE SUGGESTION would be to have the prime seats in each section designated as "must be occupied or else you lose them" seats. Sections further away can be used for the large teams to "camp out," and if that large team has a match they can head to the "must be occupied section" and try their luck there.
Also, I don't think most of the students realize that when they stand up, they are blocking the view for a HUGE area. We were sitting off to the side of our field, and were up pretty high. A large team was down front and many of the kids in the front row were standing. This completely blocked our view, even though we were so far away. I put up with if for a while, but as our match was approaching I headed down there and pointed to my group (wary in back) and let them know they were blocking our view. This was met with some temporary success. Please don't think that I'm not interested just because I'm not scouting or because my son's team is not on the floor. I AM interested and want to see the match!
At band competitions they restrict access to the stands while a band is performing...and this would be great to do at FIRST events. I always waited until the match was over before heading down into the stands or before leaving my seat. Since the matches are so short, it is hardly an inconvenience.
I love Championships! There is something so amazing about seeing all the teams from all over the world for each program all in the same place!
Only one comment that I haven't seen expressed:
Thursday Matches in Atlanta: As much as we all liked having extra qualification matches, I did not like what it did to the "intensity" of Thursday.
I did not like that it was announced too late after many teams had made travel plans and the FIRST Conference planners had already sent out their schedules.
Too short of time to practice and make final repairs on the robots, too short of time for inspections, team members trying to get pits organized while competing, pit scouting, match scouting, giving conference presentations and trying to attend the conferences. Our team also organizes the All Rookie Meet and Greet and we had invitations to deliver on Thursday. And students that just wanted a chance to look around! Even with a detailed team schedule, our team members all ended up trying to do several things at once which was very stressful!
Mark McLeod
21-04-2010, 18:23
In contrast, I have to say I loved the Thursday matches beginning after lunch. At that point in the season we didn't have to change much, but if allotted the time our mechanical team would have started "improving" things, instead of remaining focused as a pit crew.
Thursday was previously a long day (unless your robot was terribly broken or had to be built from scratch (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27919)). So this is probably a good thing if you're ready, and a bad thing if you don't have it all together - Ying & Yang.
From a team perspective I liked the Wednesday inspection, because it took the pressure off and we couldn't delay because we had "something to add." Although we got lucky and happened to have a mentor driving down with another team who could uncrate and take the robot for size & weight inspection. I appreciated the stream-lined inspection process. Still, I liked the students working with the inspector in our pit on Thursday morning.
Pre-planning would be appreciated, so teams can organize their activities ahead of time. I'm sure the last minute notice did throw some teams for a loop, as they had to scramble to reassemble parts they'd removed from their robots after Regional competitions. We won't be able to plan travel to arrive early on Wednesday, because we want to keep the students in school as long as possible and won't leave until after school.
The down-side of the way matches began on Thursday were that they were somewhat anti-climactic with no defining
Let the Games Begin
Practice matches just sort of rolled right into matches that counted.
I'm not sure if I'm re-posting anything here, but the other fields were great in the way the teams moved on and off the field.... except for Galileo. The stage was pushed RIGHT up against the Galileo field, only leaving ONE side for 6+ teams to move to and from the field. It was extremely congested and slightly annoying having to wait to get your bot on the field, or have to rush out of the way on the side of the field, unable to see your match's final score, because there was no room.
And I also miss the matches played inside the pits. Not only is it nice for the pit crew to watch the matches we're in, but watch the matches of their favorite teams.
Chris is me
21-04-2010, 20:12
I'm not sure if I'm re-posting anything here, but the other fields were great in the way the teams moved on and off the field.... except for Galileo. The stage was pushed RIGHT up against the Galileo field, only leaving ONE side for 6+ teams to move to and from the field. It was extremely congested and slightly annoying having to wait to get your bot on the field, or have to rush out of the way on the side of the field, unable to see your match's final score, because there was no room.
And I also miss the matches played inside the pits. Not only is it nice for the pit crew to watch the matches we're in, but watch the matches of their favorite teams.
A little late now but 1086 had the webcast running in their pit. FIRST should definitely supply this, though.
Galileo field: We had an unusual situation to have the stage right up against the field, and eliminating use of the right side for queuing and traffic. We were very disappointed to see this, and had a lot to do with why we were pushing the teams so fast to keep traffic moving. Having just one enter and exit for a field changes the dynamics of everything, how fast teams change over, how strict 'media behind the line' policy is, how much you 'push' teams to keep things moving. All in all, we tried to keep ourselves going fast enough while still being gracious, and I'm sorry at point if we were ungracious. It is frustrating that when your on the third morning and teams still don't understand we want their robot to be on at the last 20 seconds of the previous match. Having a faster turn around time(without getting ahead of schedule) allows more time for teams to be on the field to setup and point their robots, something that surprisingly takes a while for most teams. It also allows more time for FTAs to work on any problems with the FMS and robots if there are any, thus helping to prevent us from going behind schedule.
A little late now but 1086 had the webcast running in their pit. FIRST should definitely supply this, though.
I saw that. That was a very nice addition to their pit. Unfortunate that out pit was on the other side near Curie (the unlucky few to be split) but there were matches i would have liked to watch from other divisions. 2007 I used to watch the screens constantly. This year it was disappointing not being able to.
torihoelscher
22-04-2010, 09:43
It was my first Atlanta Championship that I went too and it went fairly well, however, the traffic getting back to our hotel used to be 10 mins but ended up taking a hour or so to get back.
I liked the way it was organized, it was way much better than the Regional in North Carolina. I did not like the way the prices were for the drinks especially if you cant get refills or anything like that. The food was okay but I expected that from the football experiances.
The seats were terrible, my team had to get in at a specific time everyday just to get good seats and spread out all of our stuff but we ended up getting mixed in with other teams. We always had to keep someone in the pits at all time as well, I not alot of judges were walking around in the pits and I wish we had a schedule so that we can keep things moving and watch the matches. (I missed a couple of matches trying to tidy up our pit and near the end when our team was in the semi finals a couple of my team members and myself had to take it apart, so we missed watching a couple of matches!!)
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