Electrical Board Mounting [Archive]

kgzak

24-04-2010, 16:28

I was wondering how other teams mount their electrical board. Do you mount all you electronics on one board or do you space the electronics out? What Material do you mount you electronics on (aluminum? Polycarbinate? Other?)? What do you use to fasten you electronics down (Screws? Zip Ties?[how do you mount the cRIO with zip ties?])? How do you keep you wires organized? Any pictures would be appreciated.

kjolana1124

24-04-2010, 16:34

I'll try and find 2010 if I can, but here's our 2009 electrical board

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2349/247/21/524093872/n524093872_1499731_1175.jpg

We mount everything with screws. We also try and put this on last if possible so we can figure out where to put everything so that the least amount of wiring is required. As far as organized...well that's a work in progress. Basically we just try to make it so we know where it is fast. It doesn't have to look all that pretty. Zip ties are used for wires we (hopefully) don't have to move around a lot.

kgzak

24-04-2010, 16:38

kjolana1124

24-04-2010, 16:41

No it's plastic. We actually took the excess material from our spiral for it. That's attached the aluminium frame of the robot.

rcmolloy

24-04-2010, 16:46

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs211.snc3/21862_311868472681_728137681_3422118_6007829_n.jpg

Just like Kelsey stated, we also mount everything with hardware. Also, we use zipties to keep everything nice and neat. As you can see with the Jaguars, its pretty much a mirror image on the other side with the cRIO. (There were two different heights on both sides but that doesnt matter :]) If you have any more questions about how we mounted everything, I can ask around but I think you may have all your answers already.

MrForbes

24-04-2010, 17:08

We've built a plywood box the past two years, and screwed most of the parts to it, we bolted the cRio since it's pretty heavy. Last year was a big flat box sitting upright, cRio was attached inside the bottom edge. This year it was also a box, laying flat, most parts on the top of it, cRio inside, also had room for the battery.

seannoseworthy

24-04-2010, 17:27

Typically we mount all out electronics on a sheet of plastic, this year everything was very close together but easily removable if anything should go wrong. We super glue our wires together for a look once we know where everything is mounted.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/img/9ba/9baaf2f731e24e966dd0d793f620e374_m.jpg

TEE

24-04-2010, 19:17

In past years, we've mounted everything on an electric board, but this year, in order to be able to fit under the tunnel, go under the bump, and hang, we mounted electrical components in several places.

Our cRIO was between the back wheels (we can honestly say we've scored with the cRIO :P), the jaguars (which we later changed to viktors) were mounted close to the motors, and the relay board and the battery were mounted close to the cRIO. I'll see if I can find a picture...

TEE

24-04-2010, 19:21

http://www.flickr.com/photos/team201/4363292463/in/set-72157623302836459/

This is the best picture I could find... you can see a vacuum-like hose around the side of the robot, and that's where we routed most of the wires.

slijin

02-05-2010, 13:04

I just joined the team this year, but last year, there was a large vertical plywood board on the back of the robot that had just about all the electronics mounted to it. A lexan guard could be slid in to protect them.

Just under that board, there's an aluminum plate resting on the chassis (so when you look at the robot from the side, you see sort of an L shape) that extends into the robot. Our cRIO is mounted on one side of that board, and a hole was cut into the plywood so that we could place a battery on the aluminum plate.

This year, some of the electronics were scattered. We have a 4-CIM drivetrain in the rear of our robot, and there's a lexan cover over them. The PDB and sidecar went on that lexan cover (it's braced by aluminum L, so it's fairly sturdy), mounted down with screws. Behind the CIMs - between our rear wheels - on the chassis, there's a lexan plate occupied by 4 Victors to control those CIMs. The other Victors - the 3 controlling the kicker, acquirer, and hanger - are mounted around the frame, wherever convenient. The drivetrain Victors are mounted with screws; the others with (industrial strength) Velcro. The reason is that the drivetrain Victors had a space allotted for them, whereas very little planning went into the placement for the others. Our cRIO is mounted on plywood, in front of our drivetrain CIMs, using screws.

Because all of the electronics are mounted on stuff that's very liable to transmit shock (physical shock, that is), we have shock mounts for all the electronics mounted with screws. For those shock mounts, we cut up a yoga mat (so if your parents ever tried and stopped doing yoga, you know what you can do with that yoga mat now!). For those electronics mounted with Velcro, no shock mount was necessary because the Velcro serves as a shock mount in itself.

Steven Sigley

02-05-2010, 13:18

Chris is me

02-05-2010, 13:24

I'm basically only posting this so that future Shaker Robotics kids will see it and tell themselves "never again"...

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs431.snc3/24832_1271913966908_1501654237_30744399_1772238_n. jpg

We had about 5 preship electrical boards. We cut two of them wrong. We had a third wired up neatly, then we changed the structure of the robot a few hours before ship so we had to redo it all in a few hours at WPI. We kind of just mounted the Victors wherever they fit. Since we're probably removing the entire pneumatics system, the new electrical kids will have a chance to rewire the whole robot with all of the scattered electrical parts closer together. Everything should be mounted on 1/8" lexan, or the trimmed piece of pultruded fiberglass up top.

kgzak

02-05-2010, 13:31

Our Electronics Panel was one double sided piece of lexan which rested on 2 pieces of aluminum on our robot, here are some pictures.

Always use bolts to mount (except the gaming adapter, zip ties for that), and zip ties to organize.

http://www.vandenrobotics.com/ploggerb3/?level=picture&id=2837

http://www.vandenrobotics.com/ploggerb3/?level=picture&id=2814

I was never going to use zip ties but people on my team said other people use them.

Our board last year was an "L" shape on the side of the robot. It was all aluminum but the cRIO was on a piece of polycarbonate bolted on with plastic screws. Everything else was put on aluminum boards with bolts and the holes where tapped to save on weight.

This year we started off with a flat piece of aluminum with all the electronics mounted on there. The cRIO was sitting on a piece of polycarbonate but somehow metal screws were used to fasten it to the board. So after that one of our mentors got scared about grounding and had us switch to a full poly carbonate board in an "L" shape. We used plastic screws to fasten everything to the polycarbonate.

NickE

02-05-2010, 13:34

MrForbes

02-05-2010, 13:47

I'm basically only posting this so that future Shaker Robotics kids will see it and tell themselves "never again"...

Ask Tom about Megamaid :)

Matt Howard

02-05-2010, 17:40

We mount everything on to lexan, and attach it to the robot with either velcro or screws. Most years we have also had to hinge portions of it so we could work on the robot.

Chas_G

02-05-2010, 19:16

We had a 3/4 inch plywood board, with a piece that stood verticle on one end. The height of the protrusion was the width of the c-rio, and we mounted the light to this piece also (we had a clear lid.) we mounted everyhing except the main breaker by screws, and we mounted the board to the chassis with bolts. We screwed zipties to the board to create wire "highways".

apalrd

02-05-2010, 19:38

If anyone saw our robot hanging, the space with messages on the bottom was where most of our electronics were mounted (on the top side). In the middle of the rear chassis pan, we had our 2 AM shifters, 4 CIM's, and 2 shift pistons, but in front of that we had the cRio sitting sideways, with the side against a piece of polycarb attached to the bottom, and the crio mounted to the front flange with bolts and plastic selves. At the rear, we riveted a piece of perforated aluminum, to which we mounted the majority of the electronics (4 Victors, 2 Spikes) with zip ties. We also zip tied all of the wiring, the heavier wires were zip tied to the rear axle, which ran directly behind the electronics. The DSC was in between the two transmissions. Above the rear chassis pan, we had the PD board floating on sheet aluminum brackets, bolted to the brackets, and another electronics pan hanging from two chassis members (riveted). The remaining two Victors and two Spikes were zip-tied to this. The three lighting power supplies (off of two of the Spikes) were attached with velcro to a 2" wide frame member. The radio was attached with velcro to a plate on the back of the arm tower, sideways, with two zip ties for the radio, two to keep the wiring tight, and around 12" total of duck tape for the connections.

Last year, we had a 4-wheel crab drive, and had a module on each side of the robot (each module had a front and back pod). We hid the Jaguars and Victors on two perforated plates inside the modules.

In 2006, 07, and 08 we had a 6wd drop-center, so we put a piece of perforated aluminum somewhere in the middle and mounted the Victors, Spikes, and RC to this using zip ties for everything. Worked well.

kstl99

02-05-2010, 19:42

We always try to place all of our electronics on the robot's baseplate. This year and last year, they were on a waterjetted aluminum plate with pre-drilled mounting holes for everything. All of the holes are then tapped and we screw the components into them. The cRio was isolated with a rubber pad, although the powdercoat is not conductive.

Wires are run so that they can be easily traced by looking at them. Zip ties are used when necessary.

Here's this year's board without the cRio. Some of it needs to be tidied up, but its mostly done except for the wires in the bottom left corner.
http://team254.com/photo_gallery/assets/images/2010_frc_build_season_46/build_37_20100321_1171764498.jpg (http://team254.com/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&func=detail&id=3141&Itemid=294#joomimg)

-Nick

Nice wiring! When wiring is this planned out and neat it eliminates many potential problems and makes troubleshooting so much easier.

Most of our electrical components were mounted with screws and lockwashers onto a 3/16" Lexan sheet mounted low to help with center of gravity. We used many zip ties and some wireway where we could. Our electrical board slid into two U-chanel pieces of aluminum so it could be slid out to work on. We used the Igus track to run the wires up to the chassis where it branched out to the motors, solenoids, etc. One big advantage of having a seperate electrical panel is that it can be assembled, wired and tested while others are working on the rest of the robot.

hyperdude

02-05-2010, 22:32

What we've done 2009 and this year was mount the cRIO on top of a piece of polycarbonate with a length of surgical tubing around the bottom edge to act as a cushion.

The rest of the electronics go wherever we find space on the bot. Though this year I was able to convince our electronics guy to put all the Jags on a vertical piece of poly to save space. Unfortunately the Jags ended up mounted behind the cRIO, making repairs a BIT difficult.

Al Skierkiewicz

03-05-2010, 07:44

Please note that many of these photos show off some very nice designs. The Cheesy Poofs have a very efficient design in that the high power circuits are all centrally located, and the high current runs to speed controllers are all short and direct. Please note that the battery, circuit breaker and PD are right in the middle of the robot. This design reduces wire loss to a minimum. You receive an Al's Gold Star for electrical design.

electron

03-05-2010, 14:52

because of the very limited space we had this year, we mounted everything in four (reasonably close together) sections.
-we mounted the cRIO sideways along the back of our robot on a sheet of lexan.
-the PD board, the jaguars and some victors were on 3 sheets of shelf liner which was attatched to the aluminum bottom of the robot.
(after some testing, we found that 3 layers shelf liner was an inexpensive way to provide excellent shock absorbing. :] )

-the DSC was mounted up and to the left. it was inaccessible in its original location down in the bottom of the robot.
-the final section was sideways on the left of the robot on a sheet of lexan. it contained the main breaker and the rest of the victors.

this setup might sound very spread out, but it was so compact, we were worried about the Jaguars overheating. because of this we mounted one of the server fans above the whole setup, and the wireless bridge was next to that.

we learned about wire management the hard way.:o

David Dawson

03-05-2010, 21:34

Ours this year used 1/4" smoked polycarbonate and some random plastic trays from a 3d printer we used to have. Note DON'T EVER attempt to hide wires like I did this year. When you discover your board has an issue that you need to diagnose you WILL feel the burn! :ahh:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WNBVUdkSfzs/S994bPH00XI/AAAAAAAAALk/qbhSetqXSrA/0219001558.jpg

Steven Sigley

04-05-2010, 23:49

I was never going to use zip ties but people on my team said other people use them.

Sorry I meant to say "we always use bolts"
Though it is safer as you're less likely to have a component come free while traveling at high speeds.

Oh and just to prove everyone makes mistakes, I made not only the nice panel that I previously posted, but the year before that I had a cool idea to make a removable box, well:
http://www.vandenrobotics.com/ploggerb3/thumbs/lrg-1549-dsc08983.JPG

Now, this isn't such a bad idea so long as you find an effective way to deal with masses of PWM cables. I think I handled the power cables well with the Anderson connectors, you can see 2 plugs with all of the power cables contained coming out of the top. Along with a battery plug. It would've been clean if it was just those 3 plugs, but when we added sensors going into the box, I just had no well-planned way to handle them and it became a great mess.

Now it still only took about 4 minutes to remove or install but only about 10 seconds of that was spent on the power cables. :)

If you're planning for an electronics box, make sure you look at all the examples out there from the past on chief delphi and such and learn from mistakes and improve upon existing designs.

More photos of the box:
http://www.vandenrobotics.com/ploggerb3/thumbs/lrg-1506-sn850521.JPG
http://www.vandenrobotics.com/ploggerb3/thumbs/lrg-1484-sn850462.JPG

Andrew Schreiber

05-05-2010, 12:06

Ours this year used 1/4" smoked polycarbonate and some random plastic trays from a 3d printer we used to have. Note DON'T EVER attempt to hide wires like I did this year. When you discover your board has an issue that you need to diagnose you WILL feel the burn! :ahh:

Hiding wires is ok when done properly. In 2005 we used a plastic channel for our wires. It had a removable top so that in normal operation the wires were hidden but if we needed to see them we could take the top off. Hiding wires is also doable as long as you properly label wires.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/19720 (2005 RUSH electrical box)

kstl99

05-05-2010, 13:02

Hiding wires is ok when done properly. In 2005 we used a plastic channel for our wires. It had a removable top so that in normal operation the wires were hidden but if we needed to see them we could take the top off. Hiding wires is also doable as long as you properly label wires.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/19720 (2005 RUSH electrical box)

This is the best way to go, if you have the room. Not only does it look neat but it is faster and easier to wire, troubleshoot and change and the cabling is protected.

Labeling is also important. We label all wires, cables and components using the sheet and line number from its location on the schematic so it can be found quickly on the schematic.

imjessica

18-01-2012, 19:18

this is really useful

Al Skierkiewicz

18-01-2012, 21:16

Jessica,
Now that the label issue has been broached I will discuss our method. 3M makes a tape marking product that is ten different colors (EIA color code, look it up) and we mark everything in the path. The motor, the controller, the wires, the PWM and the breaker and it's position in the PD. We even mark the position on the side car where the PWM goes. If we are searching out a problem on the Blue motor, we check to see if the Blue speed controller is powered and lit. If not we check to see if the Blue breaker is in place. If all looks good there we check the blue PWM cable is connected at both ends to the Blue locations. When we have more than ten objects that have to be marked, we simply use a black tape with a colored tape. The tape dispenser is a little pricey at $30 from Digikey but it is worth it. We need no schematics, troubleshooting is as fast as looking into the robot, and it easy enough for everyone to understand.
If you search color marking or color labels you will find several references. If you search on the First website, I think my electrical presentation is still available and it has pictures and other helpful hints.

JesseK

20-01-2012, 11:47

Al, we do this as well, but we use several colors worth of tiny zip ties. 4 colors nets us up to 16 combinations. We haven't been very good at labeling sensor wire since many of the wires are thinner than the zipties can attach to with slipping -- so I'll get our lead to look into this tape. In '06/'07, we also used tiny dots of multiple colors of non-conductive nail polish but stopped because its legality was brought up and was somewhat vague.

Thanks for the update.

DavidGitz

20-01-2012, 12:07

The motor, the controller, the wires, the PWM and the breaker and it's position in the PD. We even mark the position on the side car where the PWM goes. If we are searching out a problem on the Blue motor, we check to see if the Blue speed controller is powered and lit. If not we check to see if the Blue breaker is in place. If all looks good there we check the blue PWM cable is connected at both ends to the Blue locations.

Al had posted a spreadsheet for detailing which item connects where a while back on CD-Media and we have really taken to that and using colored tape to identify components. We haven't used this in a competition yet but over the last 4 months of working on multiple projects during the off-season and now during the build-season this is a FANTASTIC way to go. As Al said, once things are installed there is no need for any schematics or for reading labels that twist/turn and are hard to read. We bought this (http://www.amazon.com/JVCC--Tape-Pack-Electrical-Tape-Rainbow/dp/B000QEGHXY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1327078847&sr=8-4) from Amazon and works pretty well, however you probably want to avoid using the red or black tape for labeling components...

Also I can't find Al's original spreadsheet for documenting this, here is our version which is slightly modified but still performs the same function.

imjessica

20-01-2012, 14:40

Hey everyone! more pictures of circuits would be really, really helpful. The older pictures have different pd boards and batteries. If someone could also have some closeups of certain connections (like the wires connected to the pd board or the jaguar) that would be VERY helpful. I cant figure out with the outlets on the jaguar are called. thanks so much!!

GiannaRae23

20-01-2012, 15:25

imjessica

20-01-2012, 18:11

We mounted ours on a board last year. Yes, like a wood board. No, it didn't catch on fire. Haha. We used zip ties to keep the wires organized and a label maker with a flag function to label each bunch of wires appropriately. It was a life saver when things needed changed...Also, our cRIO was held in place with velcro...that stuff is your friend. If I find any pictures of ours from last year, I'll be sure to post them. Hope this helped!

yes that would be helpful! did you use two layers? im not sure we have the same type of board but ours in kinda thin im afraid it wont support the weight

also, did you mount the battery on the board? its super heavy I wanted to mount it on the side of our robot but im afraid thatll unbalance it

cgmv123

20-01-2012, 18:37

also, did you mount the battery on the board? its super heavy I wanted to mount it on the side of our robot but im afraid thatll unbalance it

Last year, our electrical board and our battery weighed about the same. Mounting one on one side and one on the other balanced things out nicely.

Al Skierkiewicz

23-01-2012, 07:27

I cant figure out with the outlets on the jaguar are called. thanks so much!!

Jess,
If you look close at the Jaguar in the area of the screws, you will see one side has molded into the case V+ and V- while the other side is M+ and M-. The M screws are the motor side and V screws are the side you wire to the PD.

fovea1959

23-01-2012, 07:52

cgmv123

23-01-2012, 09:41

cgmv123 (Max): I like the idea of balancing the battery on one side against the power board on the other, but did that make for a pretty long run of 6 gauge from the battery on one side to the power distribution panel on the other?

No, the standard run length worked just fine. You can see it here:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5300/5462504061_54db0feb6f_z.jpg

and here:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5137/5462501801_c607584f8f_z.jpg

It wasn't that much of a stretch, and it worked well.

fovea1959

27-01-2012, 08:33

We're going to have a short/wide robot, so I'll have an extra 10" of chassis width, which is at least an extra 10" of 6 AWG from the battery on one side to the PDB on the other. Is this extra length significant? It's not optimal, but compromises must be made....

if so, trying to figure out which is worse: asymmetry, or high CG. sidepod mounted battery will end up being 12-18" from the floor. I think I can find a spot lower in the middle, but then I have all the electronics on one side, and no battery on the other to counterbalance it.

Anyone got any experience with battery up that high?

Anyone got experience with that level of asymmetry?

Short wiring runs, weight symmetry, low CG. Pick 2... perhaps only 1.

(wish I had good pics of 2612's robot from last year; they did the side mount electronics last year, and it was gorgeous)

Al Skierkiewicz

27-01-2012, 08:40

As a rule of thumb, #6 wire will drop 0.1 volt for every two feet of wire length at 100 amps. Stall current on a CIM motor is 133 amps. Four CIMs at near stall will drop roughly 0.4-0.5 volts every two feet. Remember that the black wire and red wire both carry that current and the total length is included in that calculation.
At 12 pounds, the battery is a good way to manipulate COG. I always recommend that teams keep the battery low, inside the robot, to help prevent tipping.
In the order of things, COG first, short wire runs second. Symmetry can be compensated in other ways. If you tip over or can't maneuver, having good electricals won't do any good.

wireties

27-01-2012, 08:54

Al's advice is first rate. And one should tie everything down (note my handle ;o)). The robot is a high vibration environment and you do not want the wires moving near their attachment points (or at all). When I deliver racks of equipment to the Navy, they check for wire bundles to be tied down every 6" and at every point a wire enters or exits the bundle. Plus a clean wiring effort reduces the chance that a wire gets caught in a moving mechanism.

Labels are a big help! It makes diagnosing/repair/replacing things in the pits much easier. Label the wires, the motor controllers, the spikes and other actuators.

It is a good idea to minimize the length of power wires to/from motor controllers but note that this is really an effort to minimize the total length from PD to jag/victor plus jag/victor to the motor. The jag/victor can go anywhere along that length with little penalty (length of PWM or CAN cables).

Work hard to minimize the 6 AWG wire lengths!

HTH

NS_Radication

27-01-2012, 23:28

My team is using industrial strength velcro and honeycomb structure plastic.

CalTran

27-01-2012, 23:38

Looks like this would be the thread to post this question into:
With the addition of the barrier this year, anyone have a shockmounting idea for the electronics board? We usually put the cRio on rubber material to absorb minor impacts, but this year looks like a more heavy duty mount is in order. We were thinking something like surgical tubing standoffs. Modeling it off the rubber standoffs of the pre-2011 compressor. (That big grey paperweight.)

Suggestions?

Lightfoot26

27-01-2012, 23:39

Not gonna lie, I wanna marry the person over at #254 who does their wiring... I have admired it for years. :) just sayin'

Alan Anderson

28-01-2012, 00:32

We usually put the cRio on rubber material to absorb minor impacts, but this year looks like a more heavy duty mount is in order.

I wouldn't worry about the cRIO. It's very rugged. I worry mostly about what's connected to the modules, and make sure everything is securely tightened down.

apalrd

28-01-2012, 07:20

I wouldn't worry about the cRIO. It's very rugged. I worry mostly about what's connected to the modules, and make sure everything is securely tightened down.

Or the modules themselves...

In 2010, our cRio was mounted horizontally (with the modules facing the rear of the robot), and we managed to eject our whole analog module going over the bump. No damage to the cRio, but the analog module was no longer attached.

We promptly glued the modules in with silicone, and now we always secure the module clips with clear duct tape.

Passionflute

31-01-2012, 21:03

Our board is plastic bolted down to the robot's frame, with everything screwed and/or velcro-ed on. The wires are "organized" (I use the term loosely at this point) with zip-ties. Sorry, no picture yet. Right now it looks like a mess but it will get better once we're sure everything is plugged in right. 'Cuz, you know, it helps to actually know which jag is plugged into which port. Thank goodness for the label machine. Also, if you want to be entertained and frightened out of your mind at the same time, attach the test board with (flimsy) zip ties and ram the bot into the wall. It wasn't on purpose, but it sure was interesting. Oops...