View Full Version : 2011 Greater Toronto Regional
According to bills blog there will be 2 simultaneous regionals?
Geater Toronto East Regional - Mississauga, ON
Greater Toronto West Regional - Mississauga, ON
Can anyone confirm how this might work?
There are also 2 simultaneous Minnesota regionals. I would suspect that method, rather than the "super regional" method that was used at GTR some years back.
For those that weren't around then: super regional means 2 fields, winners of each field play each other for the regional win (or something along those lines).
I'd be willing to bet that Seattle and Toronto are both following the Minnesota model: 2 separate events, in close proximity to each other.
I also believe that there were 2 sets of winners, for each award at the super regional in toronto a few years back. I may be wrong as i was not on the team then, but i am quite sure this is what i what told when talking to our mentors.
Travis Hoffman
16-09-2010, 19:23
I'd be willing to bet that Seattle and Toronto are both following the Minnesota model: 2 separate events, in close proximity to each other.
Very close proximity in Toronto's case - the FIRST regional webpage lists the Hershey Centre as the venue for both events.
Very close proximity in Toronto's case - the FIRST regional webpage lists the Hershey Centre as the venue for both events.
As well as Qwest Field for both Seattle Regionals. More like the GTR super-regionals of old than the Minnesota double-regional system, it seems.
,4lex S.
16-09-2010, 20:26
I am so glad to hear this is back! The last GTR super regional was my first regional experience. It was epic, and will definitely be once more. I wish I had a car so I could volunteer :)
Chris is me
16-09-2010, 20:31
As well as Qwest Field for both Seattle Regionals. More like the GTR super-regionals of old than the Minnesota double-regional system, it seems.
Registration and events are listed completely separately. I have a feeling both events will have two staffs and two winners, not modified rules for a 12 or 16-team eliminations. IIRC the events were not "separate" before, you signed up for a single event and it had two fields.
Vikesrock
16-09-2010, 20:46
Registration and events are listed completely separately. I have a feeling both events will have two staffs and two winners, not modified rules for a 12 or 16-team eliminations. IIRC the events were not "separate" before, you signed up for a single event and it had two fields.
This would be my guess as well. Judging by the event sizes this may be an effort to get teams more plays in a weekend by shrinking the event size.
This would be a bigger leap but it may also be an effort to develop additional skilled volunteers. Maybe a step with an eye on potentially moving to districts in the future.
Vince lau
16-09-2010, 21:01
maybe it has something to do with this year being nothing the 10th anniversary of GTR
I also believe that there were 2 sets of winners, for each award at the super regional in toronto a few years back. I may be wrong as i was not on the team then, but i am quite sure this is what i what told when talking to our mentors.
In the past (2004 & 2006) this was the case for some awards but not all. Most notably there was only one Chairman's Award and one winning alliance.
For 2010 there will be two regionals taking place in one building. This means each regional will have its own set of awards, including the six qualifiers. Should be a great way to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the event!
perlgerl
17-09-2010, 11:18
I'm assuming that teams can only compete in either the East or West Greater Toronto regional. Can a team choose which regional to compete in, or are the teams assigned geographically, ie teams from the west must compete in the west regional? If there's a geographic segregation, what's the dividing line between east and west? Highway #400?
Minnesota teams could compete in either 10K Lakes or North Star Regional, regardless of location. Toronto seems to be set up the same way--geography won't matter.
I'm assuming that teams can only compete in either the East or West Greater Toronto regional. Can a team choose which regional to compete in, or are the teams assigned geographically, ie teams from the west must compete in the west regional? If there's a geographic segregation, what's the dividing line between east and west? Highway #400?
Per Karthik's most recent post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=974398&postcount=10), the two competitions are completely separate, but will take place in the same building.
Since they are separate events, teams will be able to compete in only one regional - you can't sign up for two events in the same week. But they should be able to choose which one they attend - I can't imagine that FIRST would want to get into the whole geography battle that it would take to segregate teams based on location.
Alex Cormier
17-09-2010, 13:33
In the past (2004 & 2006) this was the case for some awards but not all. Most notably there was only one Chairman's Award and one winning alliance.
For 2010 there will be two regionals taking place in one building. This means each regional will have its own set of awards, including the six qualifiers. Should be a great way to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the event!
How about referees and FIRST staff?
Will the matches be playing simultaneously or one at a time, switching from each field?
I was there in 2006 as a competitor, and can't recall the process.
How about referees and FIRST staff?
Will the matches be playing simultaneously or one at a time, switching from each field?
I was there in 2006 as a competitor, and can't recall the process.
There will definitely be twice as many referees, I'm not sure about FIRST staff. When we did it in 2006, we basically a full set of volunteers for both fields, with some people being overall supervisors for both fields.
In 2004 & 2006 matches switched back and forth. I'm not certain how this will be handled this year.
//Edit
I merged a couple threads to keep all the GTR 2011 discussion in one spot
Jared Russell
17-09-2010, 16:41
The natural question is, will the East and West Champions get to play one another (even if it is unofficial and doesn't result in any more trophies)?
They totally should and they should get like a Grand Toronto Champion, but instead of another gold, Platinum lol
KrazyCarl92
18-09-2010, 12:03
They totally should and they should get like a Grand Toronto Champion, but instead of another gold, Platinum lol
I think they should. Even if the overall Toronto championship "means nothing" (in terms of qualification for the Champs in St. Louis) and all 6 (or 8?) teams would qualify regardless, it would certainly be worth it to have the two regional winnners compete for if nothing more bragging rights. It would be all the more interesting if it wound up being 1114 and their alliance v 2056 and their alliance...
or the "overall champions" could get next years payment paid for automatically, like IRI does, for either Toronto East or Toronto West
This season's event will be the 10th Greater Toronto Regional. This was the first FIRST event played outside the United States back in 2002 and has been home to of the most memorable moments in FIRST history. This year's event will be a double regional, with two separate regional events happening in the same building. We're expecting at least 80 teams at the Hershey Centre for this three day extravaganza.
To help celebrate the event's 10th anniversary, we're hoping that some of our friends from down south will make the trip up for what we expect to be the most exciting events of the 2011 season. The event has always been supported by some of the top American teams and we'd love to see that tradition continue!
Chris is me
06-10-2010, 21:29
I think they should. Even if the overall Toronto championship "means nothing" (in terms of qualification for the Champs in St. Louis) and all 6 (or 8?) teams would qualify regardless, it would certainly be worth it to have the two regional winnners compete for if nothing more bragging rights. It would be all the more interesting if it wound up being 1114 and their alliance v 2056 and their alliance...
This idea has kicked around with the Minnesota Regoinals for awhile, but it apparently takes too much effort to plan / staff / officiate such an event just for fun. Granted that event would take teams crossing the street, but still, I wouldn't get your hopes up.
I'd LOVE to tell you all 2791's going to GTR, but it's not in the cards financial wise this year. :(
This season's event will be the 10th Greater Toronto Regional. This was the first FIRST event played outside the United States back in 2002 and has been home to of the most memorable moments in FIRST history. This year's event will be a double regional, with two separate regional events happening in the same building. We're expecting at least 80 teams at the Hershey Centre for this three day extravaganza.
To help celebrate the event's 10th anniversary, we're hoping that some of our friends from down south will make the trip up for what we expect to be the most exciting events of the 2011 season. The event has always been supported by some of the top American teams and we'd love to see that tradition continue!
Well it looks like you guys got a team from WAY down south in Mexico to come.
This idea has kicked around with the Minnesota Regoinals for awhile, but it apparently takes too much effort to plan / staff / officiate such an event just for fun. Granted that event would take teams crossing the street, but still, I wouldn't get your hopes up.
I'd LOVE to tell you all 2791's going to GTR, but it's not in the cards financial wise this year. :(
I really doubt it would be THAT difficult to bring up FMS with any 6 teams to play 3 matches on one of the two fields that will be there for fun after the regional is "officially" over. Even if you used FMSLite to create a separate mini-event consisting of those 6 teams alone.
It couldn't be that hard when the fields, staff, and teams are all there already, under one roof.
Chris is me
07-10-2010, 11:54
I really doubt it would be THAT difficult to bring up FMS with any 6 teams to play 3 matches on one of the two fields that will be there for fun after the regional is "officially" over. Even if you used FMSLite to create a separate mini-event consisting of those 6 teams alone.
It couldn't be that hard when the fields, staff, and teams are all there already, under one roof.
I'm more thinking getting 6 refs, field reset, moving 3 whole teams of stands across to other stands, moving the robots, maybe repairing them, and starting another match when a lot of the teams are trying to leave that would be a big deal.
I'm more thinking getting 6 refs, field reset, moving 3 whole teams of stands across to other stands, moving the robots, maybe repairing them, and starting another match when a lot of the teams are trying to leave that would be a big deal.
have you seen the setup that GTR has used for the past few years?
Its been much like championship, in that the pits were housed in the next ice pad over from the fields. For the elimination rounds, they've brought the elimination teams out from the pits, onto the ice pad with the field, and left the pits for the teams packing up. Its held in an Ontario Hockey League arena, capable of seating several thousand. Finding seating hasn't been an issue before with upwards of 80 teams on one field. I don't think it would be an issue when you split that over 2 fields.
It seems easy enough to me, with a minimum of disruption. There may well be factors I'm failing to consider though.
Alex Cormier
07-10-2010, 22:29
It seems easy enough to me, with a minimum of disruption. There may well be factors I'm failing to consider though.
For instance, during the awards ceremony the field is already well underway of being broken down.
Jonathan Norris
07-10-2010, 23:08
Since they are separate events, teams will be able to compete in only one regional - you can't sign up for two events in the same week. But they should be able to choose which one they attend - I can't imagine that FIRST would want to get into the whole geography battle that it would take to segregate teams based on location.
I believe its been said that you can sign up for either event, and once all the teams have been set the teams will then be randomized into two separate regionals.
I'm personally excited to see how the two regionals play out, its nice not having to scout 80+ teams in one super regional. Hopefully the amazing atmosphere that was the former GTR Super Regionals returns. I would also like to put out the call to get as many of our American Friends to come celebrate 10 years of great competition at GTR!
Jonathan, Bill's Blog stated that teams could sign up for any regional, but FRC reserved the right to equalize the double regionals such that they weren't all rookies, or so that the regionals had about the same number of teams. (From http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2010/09/things-you-should-know-before-you.html )
As regards having a "championship" match at double regionals, Alex is correct. By the time awards are over, teams just want to get out of there. The only people that want to get out of there more than the teams are the volunteers, and the FTA and teardown crew don't leave until the truck is being loaded, or in the FTA's case, has left fully loaded. If half the crew has to stay an extra half-hour or so due to teams playing more, I don't think the road cases, and therefore the truck, will get loaded as fast.
As it is, teams wanting pictures on the official field have to do it quickly, because the field is coming down around them as they do it.
Chris is me
07-10-2010, 23:24
Jonathan, Bill's Blog stated that teams could sign up for any regional, but FRC reserved the right to equalize the double regionals such that they weren't all rookies, or so that the regionals had about the same number of teams. (From http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2010/09/things-you-should-know-before-you.html )
I wonder to what extent they will do this. Is it just a "okay a few of you go over here" kind of thing, or drastic measures like "we're splitting up 1114 and 2056, have fun kids"? The latter I'd be much less okay with; if my team was going to an event with a friend team we'd like to compete with them...
I guess I'm skeptical of the precedent.
I wonder to what extent they will do this. Is it just a "okay a few of you go over here" kind of thing, or drastic measures like "we're splitting up 1114 and 2056, have fun kids"? The latter I'd be much less okay with; if my team was going to an event with a friend team we'd like to compete with them...
I guess I'm skeptical of the precedent.
The precedent has yet to be set. My guess is that they'd contact some of the teams in the target group (rookies, teams in GTR West/East) and ask them one-on-one to switch competitions before doing an enforced random draw/deliberate splitup (though I must say, most of the GTR teams would probably love it if 1114 was in East and 2056 in West, or vice versa).
(though I must say, most of the GTR teams would probably love it if 1114 was in East and 2056 in West, or vice versa).
I'm undecided on this. Geographically speaking, they both belong in GTA West.
I'm just as tired as the next guy of watching 1114 or 2056 seed #1 and choose the other, HOWEVER, I don't think there should be anything to stop them from doing so. FURTHERMORE, I'd hate to beat them because of silly rules, or because they went easy on the rest of us.
Their utter dominance is inspiring, and I only want to see them defeated by a legitimately better robot/strategy.
dtengineering
08-10-2010, 13:53
Congratulations to the GTR team on ten years of excellence. It would be great to see the champion alliances from each field play off against each other... perhaps the schedule can be amended to permit it. However there is another way to do it...
When we set a double regional VEX tournament for the BC championships, we clearly marked an "A" division and a "B" division. Teams that had won awards, or been to the finals at a previous event that season were placed in the "A" division automatically. Other teams got to choose which division they wanted. It took a bit of guidance and cooperation but we ended up with pretty much a 50-50 split.
The teams in "A" got to experience the top-level competition that they would expect at the World Championships, while for many teams in "B" they got the experience of advancing through the playoffs, or captaining an alliance for the first time.
So I'd suggest that the double regionals should run an "A" division and a "B" division... in "A", both the winners AND runners-up qualify for the Championships. In "B", only the chairman's winner and rookie inspiration do.
The number of qualifying spots for the championships stays the same, but you likely end up with more deserving teams qualifying, and those that qualify will be better prepared as they have survived a gruelling test against the best in "A" division. There should be no complaints about 1114 and 2056 alliances, as if you're playing in "A" the whole point is that you're playing against/with the best. If you don't want to do that, then sign up for the "B" divsion.
No matter how it works out, it will be a great competition, but we had a very positive experience in VRC by differentiating teams by ability/aspiration and letting the "top dogs" go at it flat out while giving some of the newer and less well resourced teams a chance to experience the thrill of victory and gaining some Saturday afternoon experience for when they advance up the competitive ladder a notch or two. There would be some challenges in porting this model to FRC, of course, but it might be worth trying at some point.
Jason
"We've experienced victory, and we've experienced defeat. Both have been great learning opportunities for our team... but I know which one was more fun."
Travis Hoffman
08-10-2010, 14:05
Jonathan, Bill's Blog stated that teams could sign up for any regional, but FRC reserved the right to equalize the double regionals such that they weren't all rookies, or so that the regionals had about the same number of teams. (From http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2010/09/things-you-should-know-before-you.html )
As regards having a "championship" match at double regionals, Alex is correct. By the time awards are over, teams just want to get out of there. The only people that want to get out of there more than the teams are the volunteers, and the FTA and teardown crew don't leave until the truck is being loaded, or in the FTA's case, has left fully loaded. If half the crew has to stay an extra half-hour or so due to teams playing more, I don't think the road cases, and therefore the truck, will get loaded as fast.
As it is, teams wanting pictures on the official field have to do it quickly, because the field is coming down around them as they do it.
Build it into the regional agenda. It's already been done once before, to an extreme.
In 2004, at the first Canadian Super Regional, there were 16 full alliances and a complete set of eighth finals. Is that not the exact number of alliances and match series required to determine the "Uber Champion" between GTR East and West?
From a worst-case time perspective, it's been done before. At the same venue. And I wasn't worried about packing up and leaving at the end in '04 - I was busy watching Finals Match 1-3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeYYHd_WzxE).
In 2004, at the first Canadian Super Regional, there were 16 full alliances and a complete set of eighth finals. Is that not the exact number of alliances and match series required to determine the "Uber Champion" between GTR East and West?
No, its not. An uber-champion of GTR East/West would only require one additional set of Finals matches, with 6 teams total. Eighth Finals is 8 sets of matches.
EDIT: Oh, DUH. Yes, Travis. You're right. I'm an idiot, and misunderstood what you meant.
Travis Hoffman
08-10-2010, 14:58
No, its not. An uber-champion of GTR East/West would only require one additional set of Finals matches, with 6 teams total. Eighth Finals is 8 sets of matches.
The quarters, semis, and finals of each GTR regional this year would be equivalent to the eighths, quarters, and semis of the 2004 Canadian Regional.
The Uber Championship of the GTR E/W Regionals this year would be equivalent to the 2004 Canadian Regional finals.
The only question of difference is whether elimination matches at the GTR regionals this year would occur on both fields concurrently vs. the alternating match method used in 2004 (with setup for the next match taking place on the idle field while the match on the active field was in progress).
Alan Anderson
08-10-2010, 15:02
In 2004, at the first Canadian Super Regional, there were 16 full alliances and a complete set of eighth finals. Is that not the exact number of alliances and match series required to determine the "Uber Champion" between GTR East and West?
It's the same number of matches, but that way they were all done one after another. It took almost as long as the 2010 IRI elimination rounds. :-P
Instead of adding eight match series at the beginning of the process, the proposed Champions' Match would add only one series after the rest of the matches were done in two simultaneous 8-alliance brackets. So it's not adding much additional match time...but it's doing it in a very inconvenient way.
Travis Hoffman
08-10-2010, 15:19
It's the same number of matches, but that way they were all done one after another. It took almost as long as the 2010 IRI elimination rounds. :-P
Instead of adding eight match series at the beginning of the process, the proposed Champions' Match would add only one series after the rest of the matches were done in two simultaneous 8-alliance brackets. So it's not adding much additional match time...but it's doing it in a very inconvenient way.
Think of it this way. 1114, 48, and 1006 and 33, 639, and 1112 each had to win a regional's worth of matches to get to the 2004 Canadian Regional finals. We did not see each other until the final matchup - we each competed in a separate full regional bracket to get to the finals.
GTR East Winning Alliance and GTR West Winning Alliance each have to win a regional's worth of matches to get to the GTR E/W Uber Championship. The alliances will not see each other until the final matchup - they each competed in a separate full regional to get to the Uber Championship.
You would only have to append the one final series of matches after the 2 separate GTR E/W elimination structures to achieve it. This one series of matches could be held immediately after the champions for each regional were determined (provided logistics and scoring software allow for it to happen quickly).
My only point is the exact same process needed to determine a GTR E/W Uber Champion has already been played out once before, at the same event, in 2004. There is a precedent. That is my point - it's not like anyone has to reinvent the wheel. The event staff knows how to make it work. The only question is whether they feel it worth the additional time and resources.
Was the 2004 Canada elimination process more of a marathon for everyone? Sure, it was, but that's the point - the alliances who reached the finals had to work harder to be declared the ultimate champion of that event. It meant something more than being a "regular" regional champion. Even though we came up just short, the whole experience was one of the highlights of my FIRST career. I think it's worth doing and would add to the spectacle and history of an already great regional.
The major difference between 2004 and 2011 is that 2004 was a single regional played on two fields. 2010 is two separate regionals that just so happen to be in the same building at the same time. As such, any champion between the two would be entirely unofficial, instead of the regional winner.
However, I have a proposition to make. Instead of having the Uber Champion of a given double-regional at the event, have it at the next offseason that all 6 teams attend (and offer incentives to get them there, if needed). Have it before the event, or during a lunch break.
Vikesrock
08-10-2010, 15:46
I wonder to what extent they will do this. Is it just a "okay a few of you go over here" kind of thing, or drastic measures like "we're splitting up 1114 and 2056, have fun kids"? The latter I'd be much less okay with; if my team was going to an event with a friend team we'd like to compete with them...
I guess I'm skeptical of the precedent.
If the Minnesota events in the past are any indication it is more like the former than the latter. I find it odd that Bill stated that they haven't done any balancing before, he must not be aware that there was at least one veteran team last year that was asked to move from Northstar to 10K Lakes (note: I don't know the entire story, but from what I understand it was indeed asked and not told).
Vince lau
15-11-2010, 17:29
Looks like GTR west and east have a total of 17 rookies so far, hopefully I'll have time to volunteer this year as an inspector.
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