2002 Animation Software

[Jay Lundy]

I'm not sure when this happened, but Autodesk has announced the software it will be giving out for the 2002 season:

Inventor 5
3D Studio MAX 4
Character Studio 3
Reactor
Compilation video of EVERY entry from last year

AutoDesk will begin shipping the packages to teams who have payed their registration fees starting November 1st. For more information goto http://www.usfirst.org/2002comp/Autodesk.html.

This is very exciting. Thank you AutoDesk!

Now if we can just get them to include AutoCad...

[Dave_222]

Yeah it would be nice to get autocadd but we alredy get so much they would probobly go bankrupt if we got autocadd to! :D :D :D

[Nate Smith]

They actually used to give it to us('98 & '99 at least), but they switched over to giving out Inventor instead...

[Jay Lundy]

Originally posted by Nate Smith
They actually used to give it to us('98 & '99 at least), but they switched over to giving out Inventor instead...
Yeah, when I joined the team last year I saw a box of AutoCAD R14 lying around so I installed it on my computer. I guess it was from '99.

[Madison]

Are there any advantages to using Inventor over AutoCAD?

I've never touched Inventor, so I have no idea of what it can do, and I'm pretty comfortable with AutoCAD nowadays, so I don't see myself switching unless Inventor can do some incredible things.

Anyone have any experience with it?

[Dave_222]

I so agree on this one even our cadd and drafting instuctor has never even seen the inerface on inventor!! we get it and install it but in the end we use good old reliable auto cadd! :confused:

[Jay Lundy]

This is what I think...

Inventor is like a stepping stone into CAD drawing. It is full of nice graphics and help files and is really good for someone who wants to learn what things like extrude, lathe, or loft mean. Our team has just started getting into CAD and so far no one knows AutoCAD, only Inventor. We havn't really needed to use AutoCAD for anything, though those who plan on getting into a carrer that uses CAD should definately learn AutoCAD.

I'm more of a 3dsmax person myself. We modeled our entire robot last year in 3dsmax and not a CAD program. As far as I'm concerned, if it looks right, it's fine (of course, precise measurements would be neccessary if you wanted to show someone how to build your bot).

[Madison]

Originally posted by Jay Lundy
This is what I think...

Inventor is like a stepping stone into CAD drawing. It is full of nice graphics and help files and is really good for someone who wants to learn what things like extrude, lathe, or loft mean

So, it doesn't offer any really useful features that AutoCAD might not? In particular, I'd like something that can be dynamic, while still maintaining the precision of AutoCAD.

I've designed much of our practice robot and it's drive train in AutoCAD 2000, in complete 3D, and we can probably use that for everything we need. But, AutoCAD lacks the ability to easily work with moving parts, like hinges or pistons and things. Or, maybe I just lack the knowledge of how to accomplish something like that.

[Dave_222]

Yeah autocadd lacks the ineresting and graphical interface but it is basic and easy to use I am much more proficient in auto cadd than 3dsmax.

[D.J. Fluck]

They teach inventor at our school for some Intro to Engineering design class...but the animation instructor that we have from Ivy Tech State College says that Inventor is some program to mess with once you learn autocad....if i were to vote between autocad and inventor id say autocad

[Dave_222]

I couldnt imagine that autocadd carried so much weight with so many people I would agree that autocadd is much easier than inventor

[Madison]

Okay, a few things -

First, did everyone receive their copies of the software already??? We've yet to receive ours, and we aren't sure if that's unusual.

Second -

I've finally had the chance to play with a copy of Inventor kindly provided by the nice folks at FESTO. I have something of a love/hate relationship with it.

First, why I dislike it:

I'm used to AutoCAD - so, Inventor is backwards and upsidedown to me.

I'm used to AutoCAD - I can't stress enough how differently the two software packages work.

Making every bit as a separate part, and then placing them into an assembly is a little unusual.

Why I like it:

It's disgustingly clever. It really does work like I do, starting with a rough sketch and taking that initial idea all the way through to finished product.

It has the ability to make changes on the fly, more or less, by adjusting dimensions rather than redrawing an entire part as you might do in AutoCAD. That saves a lot of time.

The assemblies are great for seeing how something will move and what it will bump into and stuff like that.

Overall, I think it'll take some getting used to for an experienced AutoCAD user. But, for our students, I think it's a really easy, intuitive tool, and they should pick it up pretty quickly.

[Dave_222]

We do have our software even though it took quight awhile to get. just finally got it a few days ago. I agree on the points made above, however i am a little old fassioned and still prefer autocadd.

[Kyle Gilbert]

I personally think that Inventor is much easier to use the AutoCAD but maybe thats because i use it every-other day at school for a class and i have had it at home for about 1 year now.... Another CAD program i have that i like a lot if Solid Edge. I havent used it for awhile now but i expect to once we have our training on the new verison for technokats.

[D.J. Fluck]

I have never seriously sat down and learned Inventor, but it seems like it is a waste of time, colleges dont use inventor in their classes (as far as I know) and most companies use AutoCAD, Unigraphics Solutions, or whatever...but i dont see what people see in Inventor

[D.J. Fluck]

Vote in my survey about Inventor and autoCAD in the general forum

[Jay Lundy]

Originally posted by D.J. Fluck
I have never seriously sat down and learned Inventor, but it seems like it is a waste of time, colleges dont use inventor in their classes (as far as I know) and most companies use AutoCAD, Unigraphics Solutions, or whatever...but i dont see what people see in Inventor That is true, but you have to remember that inventor is a fairly new software. It may catch on eventually and it's probably a good idea to have a least a basic knowledge of how to use it.

Also with the speed at which updates are coming out (2 since last year), Autodesk is probably hoping this product will catch on.

[RobDeCotiis]

autocad models have less faces than inventor models do. it's been a proven fact from last year's animation competition. i am not using inventor this year. lol :(

[Zeinin]

ahhh

here is the software that 449 is gonna use for our photoreal animation this year:

1. lightwave version 7
2. Rhino 3d
3. inventor... only if it impresses us enough....
4. PHOTOCHOP
5. Primere


w00t

[Clark Gilbert]

No 3d Studio Max?????

Wouldnt it be a good idea to use since its the "Autodesk" award......

just wondering?


(even though it doesnt state u have to use it)

:)

[Zeinin]

Originally posted by Clark Gilbert
No 3d Studio Max?????

Wouldnt it be a good idea to use since its the "Autodesk" award......

just wondering?


(even though it doesnt state u have to use it)

:)

well, it doesnt say exspressly that you must use autodesk products, and Lighwave has higher render quaility..... also, my group is not playing to win as much as we are playing to play and to make the Best Looking animation in first history, even better then the professional one done by the Big Machine 3 years ago.. that is our goal..

[Nate Smith]

Originally posted by Zeinin


well, it doesnt say exspressly that you must use autodesk products, and Lighwave has higher render quaility..... also, my group is not playing to win as much as we are playing to play and to make the Best Looking animation in first history, even better then the professional one done by the Big Machine 3 years ago.. that is our goal..

Awards.pdf, Page 12, Section C4.1.3:
...Using graphic imagery and animation developed with 3ds max (as well as other Autodesk products if you wish),...

[Zeinin]

ehhh
wasnt there last year, or the year before for that matter.

well then

still sticking to origonal thesis, lightwave has higher render quality and therfore is the winner... wait, if they let you use pshop, premire, and all that good stuff, they cant just say "no other rendering apps other than MAX"
im gonna have to submit an email about that

[Nate Smith]

Originally posted by Zeinin
wait, if they let you use pshop, premire, and all that good stuff, they cant just say "no other rendering apps other than MAX"
im gonna have to submit an email about that

Two things on this way of thinking...

1. The quote from the Manual that i mentioned specifically said "other AutoDesk products"...as far as I know, Photoshop, Premiere, etc. don't fall under this category...

2. As far as I'm concerned(personally), they can put any restrictions on what you can use for your submission. After all, FIRST says "no nother control systems than the one from Innovation First." It's Autodesk's award to give, so they can put whatever restrictions on it they want...and of course, they're going to choose 3dsmax as the allowed program...they are donating it to all 660+ teams this year, after all...

[Zeinin]

well it really is a moot point. i will put it this way, if we had a animation comp. using ONLY autodesk products, there would be no textures, sloppy video editing, ect. moot because there is no way for them to tell what is done in max and what is not. im not saying i condone minterpitation of directions, i am just stateing fact.

[Clark Gilbert]

I'm guessing some judges will probably also be able to tell if u used AutoDesk programs to make stuff....so that may sway their decision....


Just a thought....

[Zeinin]

agreed

well, i myself dont really care, as i stated, about winning the comp as much as winning to myself, to make someing photoreal, you know,

but the advice here is as follows:

if ya wanna win, i guess use only what they give you.

[anish]

Compilation video of EVERY entry from last year

as far as i know, our team didnt get this. Any teams get this thing?

[Adrian Wong]

Yes. It was on a VHS tape that we received with the software kit. I'm hoping for DVDs next year. :)

[Dan Hill]

I'm on the same team as Zeinin, and we are planning to use as many different programs as we can to produce the best animation.

We are modelling the robot in inventor in the most extreme of detail (which is enough to crash inventor in seconds). I know how to use both autocad and inventor, and for some reason, I prefer inventor more than autocad (it is probably the easy constraints, graphics display, and the nice cell shading).

We have been using Lightwave to model the scenes that do not feature the robot, because it turns out to make more realistics quality. When we get down to animating the robot, we will probably have to use MAX to import inventor correctly and it will allow us to animate the robot.

I checked the manual and I noticed that it does not say that any other software is not allowed, so they cannot restrict us from using other software.

I do agree with Zeinin on many points:
- the contest is not as open as most of the animators would like to have it. They should not have to make us make the animation have an "appealing aspect to first." We would not be spending as much time as we do if we did not care for first and the animation, and I think that the workers at First should see this.
- the purpose of the animations is not to necessarily to win any awards, it should be so that we can show our friends and family the animation and have say them say "Wow. You guys should be professionals", not "Wow. You guys sure do like to ...animate." Granted, if we do any awards, it would be nice.
-this should be experience with an actual animation software. If you look at any serious animation firm, they will never think about using 3ds max for anything that the general public might see, although they might use it to simulate movements for tests.
-without editing softwares like photoshop and premiere, do not even look toward showing the animation to anyone, because, chances are, it is not going to be pretty. We all suggest rendering the output to single frames and then compiling, editing, and compressing them later.

3ds Max is a good programmer for quick basics, but when you need something that can produce realistic graphics quickly, 3ds Max is not the best place to look for the average animators. Many people think that about 8 weeks is enough time to produce something in Max, but if you are looking to produce quality within the amount of time, make sure you are the greatest max user in the world. I also do not think that the judges can tell what is done in which program, because 3ds Max can produce the same realistic quality as lightwave and other programs, it just takes a whole lot longer to programming in effects in Max than it does to press a button in lightwave.

Everyone who has put down my team for not using programs that we do not think will save us time, should take a look at the true purpose of the animation, not the fact that there is an award that can be won. There was a lot of quality and a lot of corrections that need to be made in last years animations (my team is included) but I think that the judges made a good decision. The animation with the guy in the warehouse was hands down the best of the animations from last year and deserved to win. Hopefully we get more quality like that this year. You all know the point I'm trying to make so I will end it with one more comment. I do not know if my team will be going to nationals, but I hope that when I see the shown animations, I can say "Now that is some quality" not "Wow. They won an award."

[MrB]

From what I read in a recent CADENCE magazine article INVENTOR will be a replacement for MECHANICAL DESKTOP which runs on top of AUTOCAD. The idea is that AUTOCAD 's basic engine is getting a bit old, and that the INVENTOR engine was designed from the ground up to do 3D Modelling.

AUTOCAD will not dissapear, but supposedly MECHANICAL DESKTOP will only have 2 more versions and then INVENTOR will be the platform for 3D Parametric Modelling.

Currently I teach Mechanical DEsktop to my students, and am fond of both MDT and INVENTOR. I think that next year we will be teaching INVENTOR exclusively. If I can find some good materials to use in class to help teach it that is.

[dlavery]

Originally posted by Dan Hill
I'm on the same team as Zeinin, and we are planning to use as many different programs as we can to produce the best animation.
....
I checked the manual and I noticed that it does not say that any other software is not allowed, so they cannot restrict us from using other software.

I do agree with Zeinin on many points:
- the contest is not as open as most of the animators would like to have it. They should not have to make us make the animation have an "appealing aspect to first." We would not be spending as much time as we do if we did not care for first and the animation, and I think that the workers at First should see this.
- the purpose of the animations is not to necessarily to win any awards, it should be so that we can show our friends and family the animation and have say them say "Wow. You guys should be professionals", not "Wow. You guys sure do like to ...animate." Granted, if we do any awards, it would be nice.
-this should be experience with an actual animation software. If you look at any serious animation firm, they will never think about using 3ds max for anything that the general public might see, although they might use it to simulate movements for tests.
-without editing softwares like photoshop and premiere, do not even look toward showing the animation to anyone, because, chances are, it is not going to be pretty. We all suggest rendering the output to single frames and then compiling, editing, and compressing them later.

First off, the rules do indeed state that you have to use Autodesk software, and only Autodesk software, for the animation submissions. This is stated in the Awards section of the rules, Page 12, section C4.1.3. This was further clarified by FIRST on the FRCTECH2002 board in Post 576 on Jan 28.

Maybe the contest is not as open as the animators would like. Well, it is not as open as the software guys would like either. Or the electrical engineers would like. Or the structural engineers, the tacticians, drive system team, or anyone else. But they all find a way to get through the process while staying within both the spirit and letter of the rules.

If I apply the logic utilized in the quoted post to the rest of the FIRST competition, it goes something like this:

- We don't like the way the rules for the competition are stated, so we are going to ignore them.

- It should be obvious to everyone that just because we are building a robot for the FIRST competition that we must love FIRST and robots. We have no responsibility for adequately demonstrating that fact to FIRST or anyone else. It is FIRST’s responsibility to recognize that about us and the other 700+ teams in this year’s competition.

- We are going to use any materials, supplies and parts that we want, whether they are legal in the competition or not

- Most audiences are too stupid to understand that we are working with intentionally limited time, tools, and capabilities, and are therefore incapable of appreciating the work that we have done. So to make it absolutely clear to them that we can do great stuff, we will use prohibited technologies to make it look pretty enough to gain appreciation from even the dumbest viewers.

- We are out to build the biggest, baddest, “best” robot we possibly can build, and we don’t care if it fits within the constraints of the competition or not.

- The fact that other teams work within the rules is irrelevant. The fact that our behavior will likely impact their ability to receive any well-deserved awards is irrelevant.

This is where you end up if you follow that logic to its conclusion. Is this what you really intend? Is this how the rest of your team behaves? And is that what you told your sponsors they should expect from you (you know, the guys paying your bills)?

Originally posted by Zeinin
here is the software that 449 is gonna use for our photoreal animation this year:

1. lightwave version 7
2. Rhino 3d
3. inventor... only if it impresses us enough....
4. PHOTOCHOP
5. Primere


Originally posted by Dan Hill
Everyone who has put down my team for not using programs that we do not think will save us time, should take a look at the true purpose of the animation, not the fact that there is an award that can be won.
…
You all know the point I'm trying to make so I will end it with one more comment. I do not know if my team will be going to nationals, but I hope that when I see the shown animations, I can say "Now that is some quality" not "Wow. They won an award."

Since you have clearly indicated that you do not intend to abide by the rules of this competition, and that you are not interested in winning any of the awards, just in making the best animation that you can, I just have one question for you: if you do happen to win an award, will you admit in front of the entire audience that you did not perform within the rules, that you did not earn the award, and will you return it?

Let me respectfully suggest that you might want to consider taking another approach. If you really want to make the coolest, highest quality, most professional animation that you possibly can, go for it. Use Lightware, Maya, SoftImage, Renderman, Bryce, and any other tools you want. Utilize a professional compositing system. Heck, even subcontract out to PIXAR to have some of your rendering done! When you are done, show it to the world. Let your family and friends be suitably impressed by your work. Put it together with some of your other animations, build a demo reel, and use it to get hired by an animation house. Enter it into any of a number of computer animation (or just regular animation) contest – Newtek, SIGGRAPH, or even the Sundance Film Festival.

Just don’t enter it as part of the FIRST animation competition.

The FIRST competition (both the robot and animation aspects) is about a lot of things: building robots, learning new skills and technologies, being inspired, working in teams, creating an animation, solving problems, turning theory into application, competing, overcoming challenges, getting first-hand exposure to real-world engineering, building people, and many others. But perhaps most importantly, it is about the qualities associated with the Chairman’s Award (including inspiration, recognition, values, responsibility, and ethics of professional behavior). It is no mistake that the Chairman’s Award is the most significant award that a FIRST team can win.

Those behaviors should not be the domain of just the “Chairman’s Award group” of every team – it should be infused throughout the entire team (including the animation team). The animation competition is NOT about just making a pretty animation. It is about learning to be a professional, and working with the responsibility and integrity that being a professional requires. And in some cases, behaving as a professional means that you have to make a choice between playing within the rules of the game, or finding another game.

I would really suggest that you guys take a deep breath, sit back for a minute, and think about what you are doing and why.

- dave

[Dan Hill]

First off, cool down. We have rethought our plans since I posted my comment a few weeks ago.

-We realized that our team is no where near rich enough to gain a license for lightwave. Zeinin works with lightwave at his work, while the rest of the animation has been messing around with inventor to see how we can convert it to mesh for 3ds max. We were hoping for sponsor to help us out but that has not worked.
-we are behind on the animation because inventor crashs every 5 seconds when working with a large file.
-Also, I can bet that every single team is using a piece of software not developed by autodesk (editing programs like paint and ) so basically no one will be allowed to enter.
-we have not broken any rules in the competition because we are far behind and have not animated anything


I'm sorry if my comments were not very clear, because at many times, I do not sound very clear. Many things and plans have changed since I posted the comment. Here is what I meant:
-I do not like some of the rules, similarly to everyone else. I'll propose something about solving this later.
-If we can only use autodesk products, then the animations would not be produced (unless autodesk makes an OS and a paint program).
-Many people on each team spends hundreds of hours working on the robot. If that is not love and determination, then tell me what it is?
-where have I "clearly indicated" that we have use programs in the animation this year?
Zeinin has commented in our plans and has made designs for the animation at his work but that is because he knows the program better.
We said that we are using 3ds max and inventor to make the robot and animate them.
-if we did obtain a license for lightwave, I bet that we might have used it to get our animation done. We realized that we already have several copies of max (from previous years) which we could work on and make the animation a lot faster than one person could do working on the animation at their work.
-I think that the robot should be "the biggest, baddest, 'best' robot we possibly can build", but I do not know about the rest of you guys.
-We don't know what material we are putting in the animation, so we have not violated any restrictions
-Heck, if our animation does violate the rules, then we do not have to enter a competition, big deal, but we will be showing it down at nations in front of everyone so they can see what we did. We like what we do. For example, last year, we entered an animation that was focused on a woman running through the woods and the robot is chasing after her, and we still entered it, even though FIRST did not like it. We liked the concept and so did most people, it was not FIRST's taste, but that did not stop us from making something that we liked.

Sorry if I sound harsh, I'm not trying to put down any of Dlavery's observations. Dlavery seems to be serious about animation, and I respect him. I hope their team produces an awesome animation. Dlavery does make many good points about the competition while trying to clarify information.
-teams are using some expensive stuff which they don't even own. (I think that there may even be a team represented by pixar but I could be wrong).
-I think that Dlavery does not like the restrictions either. Next year I hope that I can find other animators, and we can produce our own student awarded animation award, just between students. It can be any length, any thing you want it just has to be made by students on the team. Many teams run over the time and may have to cut pieces off their animation that would have made it more understandable. I hope that fellow animators agree with me on this.
-"And in some cases, behaving as a professional means that you have to make a choice between playing within the rules of the game, or finding another game." I like this quote a lot and agree with it, and that is why I have been commenting that we are still not certain if we are even going to enter our animation in to the contest (FIRST probably will not like this years animation either). The only problem with being professional is that it is not educational, fun, or correct. Many teams try to act to professional and get their sponsors to design, make, and drive their robots, which is about as professional as a team can get, and FIRST allows it to happen. I hope that dlavery's team is not one of those teams because then he might disagree with me.

I'm sorry if I have given any person on this thread the idea to break rules to make a great animation. Next time I will try to make my comments clearer.

[dlavery]

Dan -

It actually sounds like we may be in violent agreement. If my prior post came on too strong and long winded, it is just because I was trying to make a point, and going to extremes to make sure that it came through.

No, I am not thrilled with some of the restrictions on several parts of the competition (animation, robot construction, software, and electronics, just to name a few), and I hope that we will have more flexibility in future years. But I have also talked a lot with FIRST, and have a good first-order understanding of why the rules are the way they are. FIRST takes on a huge job every year when they try to balance the major growth of the competitions with their organizational resources to support a high-quality experience and event for all the participants. Based on their very clear desire to make this the best possible competition for all of us, I am more than willing to put up with the restrictions.

I meant it when I said that if you guys want to build a truly amazing, photorealistic animation, utilizing all the resources you have available, you should do it. If you really make it into a demo reel, and parlay that into getting hired by an animation house, I would be the first in line to congratulate you. You just need to make sure that eveyone understands when you do this you are going after a different target than the rest of us, and working to a different set of rules (which is this case would be perfectly OK, because you have "found another game").

My only other comment has to do with your statement "the only problem with being professional is that it is not educational, fun, or correct." With this statement, I could not disagree more. I have what I believe is the most kick-butt job in the world (or beyond it, as the case may be). There is not a day that goes by that is not educational, in which I don't learn something new. I get to have more fun than I ever thought I could. Becoming "professional" is not the end of having a good time - if you pick the right job and a career that you love, it is just the beginning. I honestly hope that when you get ready to start your career as a "professional" that you will find it as much fun as I do (and if that means you want to become an animator, and preparing for this competition helps get you there, then that would be VERY cool!). (I know this is not the context in which you meant the statement, but I just could not resist poking at a line like that! :) )

-dave

p.s. to comply with "full disclosure" ethics, I will also note that I am a Lightwave user. I think it is a very cool piece of software, and really like their volumetric tools. But it has not been used for any part of our team animation, which is being done completely by two students on our team.

[ComBBAT_Albrot]

In response to the comments about any serious animation houses not using 3d Studio MAX, you're dead wrong.

Have you been to Siggraph? Specifically, have you seen the demo reels that discreet has put together over the past few years?

Have you ever heard of Blizzard Entertainment? They use 3d Studio MAX, and when I saw the movies for WarCraft 3, I nearly cried.

Just thought I'd get that out into the open.