Communicating with Feeder

[Jogo]

Any ideas for helping the feeder pick a shape? I imagine communication with the analyst across the field would be quite difficult.

How about an indicator on the robot that lights up Red, White, or Blue? Anyone have any experience with some sort of LED indicator (specifically in LabVIEW?)

[nighterfighter]

I had this idea while eating "inspirationBell" (Seriously, whenever I eat Taco Bell I get into philosophical/inventive convos or thoughts...)

2 ideas I got-

3 seperate LED clusters, (in shape of triangle,square,circle) controlled by 3 seperate spikes.

2 LEDs, allowing for 4 different "commands".
(Both off, one on one off, one off one on, both on)

Not sure if they make these, but a LED, where if given regular polarity (Set the Spike forward) one color, and if given reverse polarity, it is a different color. (Set relay reverse.) No color = off, or circle, for example.

[davidthefat]

Any ideas for helping the feeder pick a shape? I imagine communication with the analyst across the field would be quite difficult.

How about an indicator on the robot that lights up Red, White, or Blue? Anyone have any experience with some sort of LED indicator (specifically in LabVIEW?)

I would assume just the driver communicating with the feeder. Seems the lowest tech way to do it.

[nighterfighter]

I would assume just the driver communicating with the feeder. Seems the lowest tech way to do it.

Hard to do from across the field.

[Bryan Herbst]

I will personally bake cookies for any team that utilizes semaphore to communicate with their feeder.

For those of you unfamiliar with semaphore, I would recommend checking out Monty Python's semaphore Wuthering Heights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqiUGjghlzU).

[Vikesrock]

I would assume just the driver communicating with the feeder. Seems the lowest tech way to do it.

I highly suggest reading the manual thoroughly or you will have a very difficult and ultimately disappointing season.

The feeders for an alliance are located across the field from the drivers.

[Trent B]

Not sure if they make these, but a LED, where if given regular polarity (Set the Spike forward) one color, and if given reverse polarity, it is a different color. (Set relay reverse.) No color = off, or circle, for example.

Two options, run the circuits off of the digital sidecar if you have low milliamp requirements for your LEDs

Other option (I am not entirely sure if custom circuits on spikes are legal) but they are LEDs aka Light Emitting Diodes with Diodes being the key word

If you run - to anode and + to cathode it doesn't light up, so you have one wire come off the positive side of the spike, branch into two wires, one is connected to an anode of an LED the other to a cathode of another LED, continue connecting LEDs in the same direction (+-anode cathode-anode cathode-anode cathode-) and the opposite direction. Run the spike one way it turns on one set, the other way it turns on the other set.

While you generally have to apply high voltage reverse polarity to damage an LED, some are damaged more easily than others, in which case buy an actual diode that can handle the higher voltage reverse polarity and stuff that in there to avoid burning out your LEDs

[nighterfighter]

I will personally bake cookies for any team that utilizes semaphore to communicate with their feeder.

For those of you unfamiliar with semaphore, I would recommend checking out Monty Python's semaphore Wuthering Heights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqiUGjghlzU).

Isn't there a rule prohibiting coaches/human players/drivers from bringing stuff up to the driver station area? :rolleyes:

[Dustin Shadbolt]

Well you could use stuff like that. But I would imagine if you get a good feeder they would be able to kind of realize which ones you would need. Just my little thought. (especially as the season progressed)

[Duke461]

I had this idea while eating "inspirationBell" (Seriously, whenever I eat Taco Bell I get into philosophical/inventive convos or thoughts...)

roughly 20 members of 461 went to Taco Bell to discuss the game tonight. I know what you mean, dude :) :) :)

Also I'm not too familiar with driver station rules, but would a drive coach be able to hold up a sign signifying red white or blue to the human player across the field?

[nighterfighter]

(I cannot remember if LEDs can be damaged by reverse current)


I believe they can.

EDIT: After looking it up, it seems they can only be hurt if passed with a large enough voltage...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_circuit#Polarity

And dShad- A good human player MIGHT know what it looks like you need, but they won't be up to date with the coaches needs/other human player.

[Bryan Herbst]

Well you could use stuff like that. But I would imagine if you get a good feeder they would be able to kind of realize which ones you would need. Just my little thought. (especially as the season progressed)

This was my original thought as well. If you can get your feeder to know the game and your team's strategy as well as your coach (or analyst), then you should be good for the most part.

There will still be times that you want to stray slightly from the plan though, so it would be good to have some sort of system set up. LEDs might be a little overkill though.

[Bryan Herbst]

I believe they can.

EDIT: After looking it up, it seems they can only be hurt if passed with a large enough voltage...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_circuit#Polarity

And dShad- A good human player MIGHT know what it looks like you need, but they won't be up to date with the coaches needs/other human player.
Not easily. LEDs are diodes, which are designed to control the direction of the flow of electricity. More specifically, they only allow current to flow in one direction.

EDIT: Oops, double post. My apologies.

[Trent B]

I believe they can.

EDIT: After looking it up, it seems they can only be hurt if passed with a large enough voltage...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_circuit#Polarity

And dShad- A good human player MIGHT know what it looks like you need, but they won't be up to date with the coaches needs/other human player.

A little more looking into it it appears as long as you don't exceed the breakdown voltage (which is the voltage you have to reach before you can start to conduct in reverse), it shouldn't get damaged. Something to dig out the spec sheets for.

Not easily. LEDs are diodes, which are designed to control the direction of the flow of electricity. More specifically, they only allow current to flow in one direction.

There is a point called the breakdown voltage where you can conduct backwards. It will vary from LED to LED

[davidthefat]

Hard to do from across the field.

Thank you for telling me that... IDK my idea goes down the tube

Big LCD screens on the robot that display a color

[nighterfighter]

A little more looking into it it appears as long as you don't exceed the breakdown voltage (which is the voltage you have to reach before you can start to conduct in reverse, it shouldn't get damaged. Something to dig out the spec sheets for.

Yup.

This website has some useful info...

Of particular interest might be the "Tri-Color" LED section...

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/led.htm

[ChristopherBuck]

I will personally bake cookies for any team that utilizes semaphore to communicate with their feeder.

For those of you unfamiliar with semaphore, I would recommend checking out Monty Python's semaphore Wuthering Heights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqiUGjghlzU).

Well, the Analyst would have a set of free hands... :p

EDIT: <T25> seems to prohibit flags for this purpose, but maybe they could just do the signals without the flags?
EDIT2: <T26> seems to indicate flags or similar devices would be allowed, depending on the interpretation of said devices not communicating with anything or anyone outside of the arena

[The Lucas]

I like the idea of robot LEDs to indicate which tube you need. You could even use a FIRST Logo sticker and insert the colored LEDs into the logo.

Before suggesting ways to communicate between the Alliance Station and the Feeder Station, please read Section 5.5.7 Special Equipment Rules of the Manual ::rtm:: It is one of those sections that people rarely read and then they have to be told not to wear Bluetooth headsets in the Arena.

[Trent B]

The bi-color ones intrigued me however they are a few bucks a piece on digikey compared to tri-color being about a buck a piece.

A consideration with the tri-colour is how the fact you have the common cathode that would somehow have to switch sides if you wanted to run it off a spike switching direction.

Additionally blue and red LEDs run at different voltages so you have to factor in resistors and how to potentially run it off a single spike. The nice part about two sets using the diode breakdown voltage is you can use a single spike and a little breadboard rather than potentially two spikes.

I suppose you could hook up one color to the positive on the spike, one to the negative and the cathode to the negative on the power distribution board.(provided there isn't a rule against this, because it wouldn't be protected by a circuit breaker as those are only on the red blocks) You could also have it merge in with the spikes negative which may violate rule R43) below.

Custom circuits shall NOT directly alter the power pathways between the battery, PD Board, speed controllers, relays, motors, or other elements of the robot control system (including the power pathways to other sensors or circuits). Custom high impedance voltage monitoring or low impedance current monitoring connected to the ROBOT'S electrical system is acceptable, because the effect on the ROBOT outputs should be inconsequential.

[davidthefat]

Use a laptop to flash the color fullscreen

[nighterfighter]

Use a laptop to flash the color fullscreen

Yes. This seems to be the most effective way. :rolleyes:

...And when it isn't flashing full-screen color, it shows random pictures of funny kittens to distract the other team!

[HumblePie]

Holy cannoli, keep it simple folks! The analyst has 2 free hands, 2 simple sets of red/white/blue cards or a 3-sided color-coded signalling post will allow communication with both Feeders. Don't we have TWO robots to build?:yikes:

[smistthegreat]

Another idea for a low tech system, just a simple poster that the analyst would hold up signaling which shape and which side to load on, similar to the play calling cards that Oregon uses in NCAA football like this: http://media.spokesman.com/photos/2010/11/05/oregonpic5_t210.jpg?74a72ef94756bccc16ea1c78066b52 f96b62dbc7

[MagiChau]

I would say using LEDs are the best option. Seems like a lower chance of getting the desired game piece wrong.

[bassoondude]

Another low tech option would be to have the analyst hold up their right arm for one color, left for another, and both for the third. the exact colors can be decided before a match

[Kevin Sevcik]

One thing to consider when making a decision on this is that you don't know what feeder you're actually going to be talking to. Even if you have a teammate as a feeder, you might need to bail on his side of the field and go for the other side. I think you really should assume you're always communicating with a complete stranger, that you MAY have talked with before a match.

Also, how, exactly, are you going to accurately direct your communication at a particular feeder? If they both have robots incoming, how are you going to communicate with both simultaneously? And will they see you behind a plexi wall and a rack full of logos? And do you want them to be concentrating on your signalperson across the field, or the incoming robot?

Just a few things to think about before you settle on LEDs or other robot based signaling methods.

[StevenB]

Holy cannoli, keep it simple folks! The analyst has 2 free hands, 2 simple sets of red/white/blue cards or a 3-sided color-coded signalling post will allow communication with both Feeders.

... just a simple poster that the analyst would hold up signaling which shape and which side to load on, similar to the play calling cards that Oregon uses in NCAA football...

It's been said (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=993766&postcount=18) more than a few times, but READ THE MANUAL! ::rtm::
In this case, see
<T25> The only equipment that may be brought on to the ARENA is the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a
disability. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for
the TEAM, are prohibited.

Signaling items are definitely illegal.

[BrendanB]

Light up your robot either blue, red, or white. One thing I have learned from watching drivers and being on the drive team: you all will be looking at the robot and not each other most of the time so use the robot as the messenger. It will also make dealing with HP's from other teams a whole lot easier since you are never guaranteed your human player will be putting tubes in or always be going to one side of the field.

[ChristopherBuck]

It's It's been said more than a few times, but READ THE MANUAL!
In this case, see

Originally Posted by The All-revealing FRC Game Manual
<T25> The only equipment that may be brought on to the ARENA is the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a
disability. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for
the TEAM, are prohibited.
Signaling items are definitely illegal.
Ah, it may seem so, but read on.
I believe the legality of signaling cards, flags, paper, etc. depends upon the interpretation of <T26>

Devices used solely for the purpose of tracking strategy of hame play are allowed inside the ALLIANCE STATION, if they meet ALL of the following conditions:

Do not connect to the OPERATOR CONSOLE
Do not connect to or attach to the FIELD or ARENA
Do not connect to or attach to another ALLIANCE member
Do not communicate with anything or anyone outside the ARENA.
Do no include any form of enabled wireless electronic communication (e.g. radios, walkie-talkies, cell phones, Bluetooth communications, WiFi, etc.)
Do not in any way affect the outcome of a MATCH, other than by allowing TEAM members to plan or track strategy for the purposes of communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members.

[nitneylion452]

Based on T26, it seems legal to bring a signaling device to the driver's station.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I'm doubtful that T26 covers this. It says right there at the top that it covers items used to TRACK strategy. Like whiteboards with scores or something. I don't really see how you can claim that red, white and blue cards are being used to track strategy. Instead of solely being used to communicate to your feeder.

[blayde5]

Another low tech option would be to have the analyst hold up their right arm for one color, left for another, and both for the third. the exact colors can be decided before a match

I will second this. The simplest option is often the best. Just make sure they human player has a good memory :P

[Jogo]

Okay, yeah let's keep this simple. Should we try to set up a standard on CD?

[BrendanB]

Okay, yeah let's keep this simple. Should we try to set up a standard on CD?
Clarification?

[nitneylion452]

I'm doubtful that T26 covers this. It says right there at the top that it covers items used to TRACK strategy. Like whiteboards with scores or something. I don't really see how you can claim that red, white and blue cards are being used to track strategy. Instead of solely being used to communicate to your feeder.

Yes, but wouldn't informing your FEEDER on what shapes you need in the field be tracking your strategy? This game is based solely on these pieces and communication with the feeder, who is in the arena. It doesn't create an unfair advantage.

EDIT:
Someone should Q&A this.

[UkuleleGuy]

Personally, I really like the LED idea. LEDs are not hard to hook up, and would be much easier to see than having to peer across the entire field over robots and poles.

[KrazyCarl92]

Another low tech option would be to have the analyst hold up their right arm for one color, left for another, and both for the third. the exact colors can be decided before a match

Although I agree that hand signals would be simplest, esp. if made a standard, left/right can be confusing for some b/c of the mirroring aspect; left for the analyst is right for the HP. Therefore I believe in a standard for Analyst--> HP comm, something like:

fist = circle
arms in a triangle (like "A" in YMCA dance) = triangle
arms out at right angles = quadrangle

^^^FRC community: IT IS UP TO US TO SET OUT A STANDARD PRIOR TO COMPETITION, WE SHOULD DECIDE ON SOMETHING WELL IN ADVANCE TO BEST SOLVE THE PROBLEM!

[Tetraman]

It's not that difficult.

Hold up a fist - Requesting a circle

Hold up a hand, palm out fingers together - Requesting a Square

Hold up a hand, back of hand fingers apart - Requesting a Triangle

[nighterfighter]

^^^FRC community: IT IS UP TO US TO SET OUT A STANDARD PRIOR TO COMPETITION, WE SHOULD DECIDE ON SOMETHING WELL IN ADVANCE TO BEST SOLVE THE PROBLEM!

Not really. You just talk to your alliance before the match.

[Joe Schornak]

It's not that difficult.

Hold up a fist - Requesting a circle

Hold up a hand, palm out fingers together - Requesting a Square

Hold up a hand, back of hand fingers apart - Requesting a Triangle


We had issues with cross-field communication in 2009, when we were trying to communicate with our human player on the other side of the field. We tried hand signals initially, but they just devolved into large desperate waves as we tried to get his attention. There's probably going to be too much happening for the feeder to keep an eye on the drivers for the whole game. To make matters worse, the view to and from the driver stations will become obscured as more logo pieces are placed.

Thus, I support on-robot signaling. However, for that classy feel and improved visibility, use neon or LED underlighting colored corresponding to the desired color. It would be fairly intuitive to give a red piece to the robot with bright, flashing red lights.

[nighterfighter]

It would be fairly intuitive to give a red piece to the robot with bright, flashing red lights.

Haha, that's what YOU think! :p

[Grim Tuesday]

IMO LEDs are the best method. Or we dress like The Beatles.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Help.jpg

[ChristopherBuck]

We had issues with cross-field communication in 2009, when we were trying to communicate with our human player on the other side of the field. We tried hand signals initially, but they just devolved into large desperate waves as we tried to get his attention. There's probably going to be too much happening for the feeder to keep an eye on the drivers for the whole game. To make matters worse, the view to and from the driver stations will become obscured as more logo pieces are placed.

Thus, I support on-robot signaling. However, for that classy feel and improved visibility, use neon or LED underlighting colored corresponding to the desired color. It would be fairly intuitive to give a red piece to the robot with bright, flashing red lights.

Good point. Game pieces obscuring alliance station + not looking at each other would equal many problems. So is the general idea to wire a few LEDs to various relays or DIOs on the sidecar?

[BIGWILLI2081]

The coach could have three hats. If their team's FIRST robot wants a triangle, he/she puts on the red hat, white for a circle, and blue for a square. The hat could be extra big to increase visibility.

[nighterfighter]

Good point. Game pieces obscuring alliance station + not looking at each other would equal many problems. So is the general idea to wire a few LEDs to various relays or DIOs on the sidecar?

I believe so.

[synth3tk]

We had issues with cross-field communication in 2009, when we were trying to communicate with our human player on the other side of the field. We tried hand signals initially, but they just devolved into large desperate waves as we tried to get his attention. There's probably going to be too much happening for the feeder to keep an eye on the drivers for the whole game. To make matters worse, the view to and from the driver stations will become obscured as more logo pieces are placed.

Thus, I support on-robot signaling. However, for that classy feel and improved visibility, use neon or LED underlighting colored corresponding to the desired color. It would be fairly intuitive to give a red piece to the robot with bright, flashing red lights.
Loud music, an antsy crowd, and a bunch of moving machines on the field. Too distracting for most people who would be human players.

I think I'm going to suggest the underlighting method at our next team meeting.

[BrendanB]

After a quick search I think these should do the trick!

http://www.starsurplus.com/viewitem.lasso?i=CA-CLKBL2

http://www.coolerguys.com/840556011057.html?productid=840556011057&channelid=FROOG

http://www.xoxide.com/dual-white-cold-cathode-kit.html

[gblake]

I'm doubtful that T26 covers this. It says right there at the top that it covers items used to TRACK strategy. ...
Like Many FRC rules this one starts with a strong unambiguous statement and then attachs an exception/addendum in later statements (I wish they wouldn't do that). The last part of the T26 post says:
Originally Posted by T26
Devices used solely for the purpose of tracking strategy ...
allowing TEAM members to plan or track strategy for the purposes of communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members.

Colored cards keep track of the tube your strategy says is needed next and they communicate it to other alliance members.