View Full Version : Mini-bot Ideas
I've noticed that out of the 7 Mini-bot threads started so far, not a single one's purpose is to discuss the actual ideas, designs, and prototypes for making and deploying Mini-bots. So, without further ado, please feel free to post your ideas, no matter how ludicrous.
davidthefat
08-01-2011, 23:49
http://solreka.com/blog/wp-content/kosol_ouch_antigravity_device.jpg
LOL JK
I think really strong magnets should do. Just launch it up from the base of the pole.
mcrawford
08-01-2011, 23:50
duke how do like that sounds pretty ludicrous
I have to say, the last one they showed, the one with two wheels that are pulled against the pole by a weight, would be good, but placed on the pole, not moved out there by it's own power. A simple system of microswitches and latches should be sufficient.
One thing that really must be cleared before we begin designing our bots is wether we need to keep it up or just trigger the sensor at the top.
If I was given unlimited parts and access beyond the FTC parts I'd suggest a minibot propelled by small single burn rocket motors, replaced every game. That thing would fly.
MagiChau
09-01-2011, 14:45
You only need about 4 newtons to trigger the target, no need to destroy the sensor.
Hawiian Cadder
09-01-2011, 15:37
i think the plan with my team is to use the main robot to "Launch" the minibot, rather than have it move under its own power. it should work alright. i also think that our mini-bot wont have any electrics, entirely potential energy driven.
One thing that really must be cleared before we begin designing our bots is wether we need to keep it up or just trigger the sensor at the top.
If I was given unlimited parts and access beyond the FTC parts I'd suggest a minibot propelled by small single burn rocket motors, replaced every game. That thing would fly.
I may be wrong but I believe we need to just trigger the sensor, but dont quote me on that. But it seemed that in the rule book it said we just needed to trigger the sensor
LemmingBot
09-01-2011, 19:38
well this is what my teams planning:
http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b6/Soundwave_and_company.jpg
The paint got lost in the mail though
JohnHorton
09-01-2011, 20:04
I really like the idea of a launched minibot, as opposed to one running under its own power. A section of PVC that could fit around the pole (1.75" internal diameter, 6 in long) is about 105g. Say, with some form of hinging and latching system to secure it around the pole (split in half, with hinges on one side and magnets on the other, maybe?), it could weigh in at 120g. That wouldn't take much to produce the 4N or so at impact to trigger the target. Several thousandths of a joule or so.
billbo911
09-01-2011, 20:13
i think the plan with my team is to use the main robot to "Launch" the minibot, rather than have it move under its own power. it should work alright. i also think that our mini-bot wont have any electrics, entirely potential energy driven.
Sorry, but I don't believe the rules will allow that.
<G19> After DEPLOYMENT, MINIBOTS must remain completely autonomous. Violation: The TOWER on which the MINIBOT is DEPLOYED is disabled. If the MINIBOT is not deployed on a TOWER, then the ALLIANCE’s TOWER upon which the highest RACE SCORE was earned will be discounted.
The parts to allow you to make the Minibot must follow this rule:
<R92> The following items are the only permitted materials for use on the MINIBOTS:
A. TETRIX components,
B. no more than two motors (PN W739083),
C. exactly one 12V rechargeable NiMH battery pack identical to those supplied in the FTC kit of parts (PN W739057)
D. No more than one HiTechnic DC motor controllers,
E. No more than one NXT controller with the Bluetooth functionality disabled,
F. Polycarbonate,
G. Polycarbonate glue,
H. Aluminum sheet, 90° angle, u-channel, tube, bar,
I. rivets,
J. non-metallic rope or cord,
K. wire nuts,
L. cable ties,
M. limit switches,
N. no more than two common household light switches,
O. wire of appropriate gauge (see Rule <R40>),
P. non-slip pad,
Q. PVC or CPVC pipe,
R. PVC cement or cleaner,
S. Mechanical hardware (i.e. screws, bolts, etc) ,
T. Loctite or similar thread-locking product,
U. Rubber bands,
V. Surgical tubing,
W. Electrical tape and shrink tubing,
X. PWM extension cables,
Y. Universal security clips to hold the PWM connectors together,
Z. Hook and loop fastener (may not be used as tape), and
AA. Magnets.
Obviously we are very early in the build season, so I'm certain refinements to the rules will make it clearer if your idea will work or not.
JohnHorton
09-01-2011, 20:40
In response to my previous post, I figured out the initial launch velocity needed.
Assuming:
-Kinetic minibots are allowed
-4N triggers the switch (as indicated in GM 2.2.5)
-A section of PVC around the tower with some hinging and latching weighs in at 120g
-The target switch takes 1 cm to trigger
-Friction turns off for the day
The initial launch velocity would need to be 7.5 m/s.
I rounded up gravity to 10 m/s^2 and rounded up most of my numbers to two sig. figures.
This is on the outside for that weight of PVC. I think +/- .5m/s would be fine, depending on friction.
I'm trying to convince my team to consider using Ytivarg to make the minibot climb the tower.
(Hint - Lleps ti sdrawkcab! :) )
Our team's thinking of having a minibot with two plastic clips (like the bottom spring on an umbrella http://www.umbrellaman.co.uk/UserFiles/Image/Parts-of-an-Umbrella.jpg ) that would both have a curved side towards the pole, and then would maybe be attached to some PVC so the robot could lock on. However, having looked at the rules some more, I think it would be hard to make them/have them work without using springs. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, do you have any ideas?
dsmith14469
10-01-2011, 10:29
Something our team learned is that the sensor that needs to be triggered is 3 limits switches wired in series positioned around the circle. So launching an item my trigger only one switch and no the other two in which case no score.
Something our team learned is that the sensor that needs to be triggered is 3 limits switches wired in series positioned around the circle. So launching an item my trigger only one switch and no the other two in which case no score.
Actually, since they are in series, actuating just one switch would disrupt the entire circuit and would be registered as a score.
Beta Version
10-01-2011, 11:31
Something our team learned is that the sensor that needs to be triggered is 3 limits switches wired in series positioned around the circle. So launching an item my trigger only one switch and no the other two in which case no score.
actually, per my understanding, these switches are held between two plates. The minibot hitting the bottom plate will activate all the switches
Wayne TenBrink
10-01-2011, 12:18
Actually, since they are in series, actuating just one switch would disrupt the entire circuit and would be registered as a score.
Are the switches normally open or normally closed?
We were considering ideas that would not require any electrical devices for the minibot. For example, the minibot could be constructed small, lightweight, and powered by a wind up spring mechanism. As the host bot pulls away from the minibot it could release a latch that then lets the minibot shoot up the pole with stored spring power driving wheels or such. Unfortunatly, per the materials list it looks like any team wanting to power the minibot with a spring must use either rubber bands or the surgical tubing.
Am I missing anything in the rules that would prevent us from powering a minibot by stored spring energy as long as it is deemed safe?
Thanks
MechJim
Team 3284
578robotsrock
10-01-2011, 12:39
I am extremely interested to see if launched mini-bots will be allowed
pfreivald
10-01-2011, 12:50
I think that there are a lot of unknowns right now about what, exactly, is legal as far as MINIBOTs are concerned. "Climb", "deploy", and "autonomous" are all sufficiently ambiguous that there is a lot of outside the box thinking going on -- some of which will be legal in the end, some of which won't, and all of which is good stuff either way.
Am I missing anything in the rules that would prevent us from powering a minibot by stored spring energy as long as it is deemed safe?
Well, keep in mind the material usage rules... Springs aren't allowed, although elastic deformation is possible with other materials.
If you think you want to launch a minibot, PROTOTYPE IT. We did.
No really, try it. Then come back with the results. There's way too much conjecture in this thread...
HazzardFuzzBomb
10-01-2011, 13:31
Sorry I don't have the insides of the rule so can someone post them but check out rule g20
Has anybody else come to the conclusion that the mini-bot can be anything? I've read very carefully through the rules and theres no rule that says the mini-bot has to be deployed on the pole or at the tower. All it has to do is trigger the target. Other than obvious safety concerns, theres no rule that says we can't just launch a tennis ball across the field and hit the target. The tennis ball would be the mini-bot. Well a tennis ball isn't allowed i suppose by the mini-bot material rules. So how about throwing a FTC wheel up there? As long as it is a controlled toss it wouldn't pose much of a safety hazard. And it fits all of the rule requirements.
The GDC has to put our some more rules concerning the mini-bot and I think they will. This also explains the mysterious missing section 3.4.14....
Something to think about.
pfreivald
10-01-2011, 15:37
Something to think about.
There are too many unknowns on the MINIBOTs. I think they seriously need to define 'climb' and 'deploy'.
I suspect that when all is said and done, the MINIBOT will have to maintain continuous contact with the tower on its way up (thus "climb" and not "jump"), and DEPLOYMENT that adds vertical kinetic energy to the MINIBOT will be disallowed...
I'm not positive, but that's my suspicion.
I've read very carefully through the rules and theres no rule that says the mini-bot has to be deployed on the pole or at the tower.
Are you sure you read the rules carefully? I suggest you re-read rule <G20>.
Are you sure you read the rules carefully? I suggest you re-read rule <G20>.
Yeah I read that, but that says nothing about the mini-bots not being able to contact the tower above the deployment line. And as long as you propelled the mini-bot below the line, that satisfies rule <G20>.
Yeah I read that, but that says nothing about the mini-bots not being able to contact the tower above the deployment line. And as long as you propelled the mini-bot below the line, that satisfies rule <G20>.
The only thing right now that would support the minibot always having to stay on the pole is:
<G46> MINIBOTS may only be used to climb the TOWER.
Violation: YELLOW CARD
The reason i bring that rule up is because you're not climbing the tower if you're not touching it. So there's no rule so far saying you can't do that, but I can almost guarantee you that rule will be established (that you always have to stay in contact with it)
NinjaMonicaRox
10-01-2011, 17:46
A motorized minibot is easy to come up with. What I'm having a difficult time coming up with are ideas for a spring powered one, maybe like a mousetrap car sort of thing but I'm not sure...
billbo911
10-01-2011, 17:52
Sorry I don't have the insides of the rule so can someone post them but check out rule g20
Here is <G20>
<G20> ROBOTS/HOSTBOTS may not contact their own TOWERS above the DEPLOYMENT LINE. Violation: PENALTY for contact. TOWER is disabled if MINIBOT is DEPLOYED above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.
Tetraman
10-01-2011, 17:55
When I saw the little guy on the game animation, I instiantly figured we could use Hexbug parts. I was thinking of how cool it would to have a modified Ant Hexbug race up the tower.
Bjenks548
10-01-2011, 18:01
I personally think as of now with the current rules, launching a minibot up the tower, while it starts at the base is legal. I do not think firing the minibot across the field is however as I look at the definition of deployment and safety. Also to whoever said the tennis ball idea I'm 99% sure that wasn't in the list of parts for the minibot.
AndrewMcRadical
10-01-2011, 18:19
When I saw the little guy on the game animation, I instiantly figured we could use Hexbug parts. I was thinking of how cool it would to have a modified Ant Hexbug race up the tower.
parts list
just keep in mind everyone... It's not going to take very much force at all to trigger the thing at the top so all the minibot has to do is reach the top before another does... Given that the bot has only 10 seconds to reach the top, at that velocity it will most definitely trigger. :)
Dragon Princess
12-01-2011, 13:55
<G19> was reinstated that a host bat can't launch the mini bot up the pole, or contribute to the vertical movement, and energy for vertical deployment cannot be stored in the minibot before deployment.
It also states that the minibot has to be deployed on a tower or else a penalty of the highest race score is implied.
I think that now throwing the minibot from the hostbot should be out of the design, it seems as if they want us to build the minibot like a FTC team would.
<R92> A. has TETRIX components that are not in violation of any other rules.
lil'est lavery
12-01-2011, 15:28
Thank you,
<G19> MINIBOTS must remain completely autonomous and move up the POST solely through electric energy provided after DEPLOYMENT by the permitted, unaltered battery and converted to mechanical energy by the permitted unaltered motors (and associated, appropriate circuitry). Violation: The TOWER on which the MINIBOT is DEPLOYED is disabled. If the MINIBOT is DEPLOYED on something other than a TOWER, then the ALLIANCE’S TOWER upon which the highest RACE SCORE was earned will be discounted.
<G19> means that HOSTBOTS are not allowed to launch the MINIBOT up the pole at the TARGET, or otherwise contribute to the vertical movement of the MINIBOT. Energy for vertical movement may not be stored in the MINIBOT before DEPLOYMENT (except that which is contained within the battery and excluding incidental kinetic energy stored in the motors or wheels, but NOT, for example, in a flywheel).
Now that we've received some design changing news, does anybody have non-stored-energy-that-contributes-to-the-vertical-movement-of-the-robot ideas? :D
pfreivald
12-01-2011, 22:21
I don't know that there would be anything more efficient than wheels, to be honest. (Given the design restraints.)
I don't mind the FTC thing... I just wish that we had to use the battery/no-stored-energy restriction and **weren't allowed** to use wheels...:D
Grim Tuesday
12-01-2011, 22:33
One of my friends mentioned corkscrews. I dont know how it would work, but it would be interesting.
blackrocks0
12-01-2011, 22:34
i think the plan with my team is to use the main robot to "Launch" the minibot, rather than have it move under its own power. it should work alright. i also think that our mini-bot wont have any electrics, entirely potential energy driven.
I'm sure that the robot has to move under its own power after the first 18 inches of the pole. (also sure you can't use springs)/.
didn't read everyones but the robot has to be self driven-that means no springs or rocket boosters:( the general sensus seems to be that putting the robot on the pole is quicker than having it drive off the 'hostbot' so likewise it would be good for teams to have a deployment system that does not require the mini to drive.
FatBabyJezus
13-01-2011, 19:17
Hmm. How about utilizing magnets, like a maglev train?
Use the magnets to attach to the steel pipe, then flip a switch and propel it to the top?
Would it work?
SAMBURGER
13-01-2011, 19:56
Team Update #1 clarifies <G19> to make spring-launching a MINIBOT illegal. The HOSTBOT can't give any upward motion to the MINIBOT. The MINIBOT must climb using only a motor powered by its battery, with no other stored energy permitted.
Team Update #1 clarifies <G19> to make spring-launching a MINIBOT illegal. The HOSTBOT can't give any upward motion to the MINIBOT. The MINIBOT must climb using only a motor powered by its battery, with no other stored energy permitted.
That's not word for word. It just has to be electrical energy then converted to mechanical energy.
This might sound like a dumb question, but is an electromagnetic still considered an acceptable mini-bot part (AA. magnets)?
http://www.product-reviews.net/wp-content/userimages/2008/03/slot-car-wall-sculpture.jpg
atinylittlemuon
14-01-2011, 10:45
Hmm. How about utilizing magnets, like a maglev train?
Use the magnets to attach to the steel pipe, then flip a switch and propel it to the top?
Would it work?
unfortunetly no, maglev track consists of multiple small magnets of alternating polarity (N,S,N,S...) so the train is propelled by rapidly changing the polarity of its own magnets to cause it to be pulled forward and pushed from behind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev_(transport)#Propulsion
short of chopping up the pole and magnitizing all the pieces, that wouldn't work. but that would be awesome if we could.
SAMBURGER
14-01-2011, 11:12
That's not word for word. It just has to be electrical energy then converted to mechanical energy.
This might sound like a dumb question, but is an electromagnetic still considered an acceptable mini-bot part (AA. magnets)?
They are on the list of accepted parts for the minibot. So yes, I believe so.
atinylittlemuon
14-01-2011, 11:25
Hey, idea!
Has any one thought of using magnets in their wheels to attach the mini bot to the pole? That way you wouldn't need any sort of latch to keep the wheel against the pole. You would still need some U shaped part to keep it from turning and going around the pole instead of up it but it would keep wight and complexity down. Someone should look into this.
Hey, idea!
Has any one thought of using magnets in their wheels to attach the mini bot to the pole? That way you wouldn't need any sort of latch to keep the wheel against the pole. You would still need some U shaped part to keep it from turning and going around the pole instead of up it but it would keep wight and complexity down. Someone should look into this.
Zoom!
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ugHPIA12L.jpg
We've (461) looked into using neodymium magnets in some way. Also, we were able to get our minibot to reach the top in 5.7 seconds already without magnets :eek: :yikes:
PAR_WIG1350
16-01-2011, 19:05
One of my friends mentioned corkscrews. I dont know how it would work, but it would be interesting.
Possibly with recirculating spheres. Awesome idea, but the question is, how would you do it with the allowed parts?
Polycarbonate and PVC/CPVC pipe could be used to build a track for the spheres to move through, Al and polycarbonate wrapped around a piece of PVC or a tetrix tube could form a screw, the part that seems to be the most difficult is what to make the spheres out of, possibly polycarbonate, possibly alternating polycarbonate spheres and magnetic spheres. Traction seems to be a slight issue.
We've (461) looked into using neodymium magnets in some way. Also, we were able to get our minibot to reach the top in 5.7 seconds already without magnets :eek: :yikes:
Any pictures or hints you'd be willing to share? Our team so far is convinced that magnets is the way to go, but I'm not so sure anymore, and I'd like to convince them otherwise.
Any pictures or hints you'd be willing to share? Our team so far is convinced that magnets is the way to go, but I'm not so sure anymore, and I'd like to convince them otherwise.
I would love to post a video, Numbers, but right now we're not allowed. Our team has two "brother" teams associated with FIRST, 1747 and 1646 (all teams are located in Lafayette/West Lafayette area nearby Purdue University in Indiana). We have a design review tomorrow, and still we're only showing a really short clip of the minibot moving up the pole. We have yet to use any magnets (and it looks like we won't end up using any; we found an even cooler way to latch on) and we got it to reach the top today in 4 seconds! We're really excited. Sorry i'm not allowed to pass on the info at least at this point its "top secret" :ahh:
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