Coopertition points for borrowing minibot [Archive]

Basel A

12-01-2011, 18:20

Chris is me

12-01-2011, 18:29

The rule doesn't specify match, only that you receive coopertition points. "You," under the current rules, could be a team not even actually at the event. A team could potentially win the coopertition award at an event they do not attend.

That raises another question: What defines a minibot as "yours"?

Before Team Update 1 ruined our plans :P my team was working on a collaborative design with other teams. Do we have "their" mini bots and do "they" have ours?

DonRotolo

12-01-2011, 19:25

A team could potentially win the coopertition award at an event they do not attend.Now that would be something!
That raises another question: What defines a minibot as "yours"?Remember the seagulls in "Finding Nemo"? If you can say it's "Mine", then it's yours. Otherwise it's someone else's.

alectronic

12-01-2011, 19:34

Although this will probably go through the Q&A here before too long, my bet is that for sake of simplicity it will be coopertition points to the team from which the minibot was deployed. Otherwise, i can see the scoring staff having a terrible time running around asking "who owns that minibot!?!"

Basel A

12-01-2011, 19:34

davidthefat

12-01-2011, 20:27

What you can insure cooperation points or award is to mass manufacture your minibots and give it to all the teams for free.

Nawaid Ladak

12-01-2011, 20:51

Looked into it, here's the two rules governing Coopertition:

"The Coopertition™ Award celebrates the
team that earns the most Coopertition
points during the competition"

"Coopertition Score (CS)
Any borrowed MINIBOT which scores points by legally triggering the TARGET during the MATCH receives one (1) Coopertition point for the FRC TEAM registered for the event that is affiliated with the MINIBOT.
The total number of Coopertition points earned by a TEAM throughout the qualification matches will be their Coopertition score"

Emphasis mine. Looks like you have to be registered at that event to receive any coopertition points. Sad.

...And that rule is exactly why the majority of FTC teams will not bother building a minibot for a FRC event, even though using one would be perfectly legal. Now if FIRST came out with a update saying that FTC teams could also win the coopertition award, then i really think this award would be more interesting from an FTC standpoint.

Basel A

12-01-2011, 21:04

What you can insure cooperation points or award is to mass manufacture your minibots and give it to all the teams for free.

Not quite true, because not every team will be able to deploy your minibot. As a matter of fact, not every team will have a deployer. Teams that don't have a minibot probably won't build any sort of deployer at all.

Brandon_L

12-01-2011, 21:21

So if we are at the same event, and we give a team our bot for the day, then each match they use it we get points?

GaryVoshol

12-01-2011, 21:24

What you can insure cooperation points or award is to mass manufacture your minibots and give it to all the teams for free.Only if the other teams choose to use it, and it scores. I think if I had several thousand dollars, I'd come up with a better use for it.

So if we are at the same event, and we give a team our bot for the day, then each match they use it we get points?Each match in which it scores.

Now I'll ask both of you, what are you going to do with that pile of coopertition points you've earned?

Brandon_L

12-01-2011, 21:56

doesn't it bump you up in the rankings or something? and you also get the coopertition award?

Dr Theta

12-01-2011, 22:13

The rankings this year are based on your qualification score which is detailed in 5.3.3 of The Tournament. It is essentially a win-loss-tie system. You receive 2 qualification points for a win, 0 for a loss, and 1 for a tie.

From there ties in the qualification score are separated using the ranking score which is detailed in section 5.3.4. In a match members of the winning alliance receive ranking points equivalent to the unpenalized score of the losing alliance, and in the case of a loss or a tie the teams receive ranking points equal to the score of their alliance after penalties.

It is essentially a system of determining your relative strength of schedule. One thing to note is that this year it seems that the GDC has gone out of their way in an effort to prevent scoring for your opponent. Therefore, teams will not be able to artificially inflate their strength of schedule.

The coopertition score has no relevance on your seeding.

Basel A

12-01-2011, 22:44

It is essentially a system of determining your relative strength of schedule. One thing to note is that this year it seems that the GDC has gone out of their way in an effort to prevent scoring for your opponent. Therefore, teams will not be able to artificially inflate their strength of schedule.

The coopertition score has no relevance on your seeding.

Feeders may toss logo pieces over the wall. Oppenents' pegs will be a couple yards away. In 2007, tubes were scored from halfway across the field. I see possibilities.

Dr Theta

12-01-2011, 22:52

Agreed, shortly after posting I realized the same possibility, though I do believe scoring in such a manner will be rare.

Brandon_L

14-01-2011, 15:58

Koko Ed

14-01-2011, 17:33

Only if the other teams choose to use it, and it scores.

I don't think teams will benefit from loaning out their robot like they think they will.
Lots of teams struggle simply using their own robot. I can't see teams who use another teams robot scoring with them because they haven't had enough time to learn how to use it properly.

Brandon_L

14-01-2011, 17:42

I don't think teams will benefit from loaning out their robot like they think they will.
Lots of teams struggle simply using their own robot. I can't see teams who use another teams robot scoring with them because they haven't had enough time to learn how to use it properly.

Unless its planned ahead.

nighterfighter

14-01-2011, 17:58

Unless its planned ahead.

I agree. I think the only way teams will get a lot of Coopertition points this year, besides blind luck, is if they design with each other and plan it...

Doesn't that defeat the point of coopertition then?

keericks

14-01-2011, 18:09

One last question:
what do the coopertition points do? I'm pretty sure last year they somehow affected your rankings. This year I can't find any info on it and it seems the only benefit of sharing a minibot is for the coopertition award?

I had the same question as I poured over the rules for the rankings and searched the Tournament document for the word Coopertition - nothing. Then as I looked at the Awards document I noticed there is a single Coopertition award given to the team with most cooperition points at the end of the event. That seems to be the only result for gaining CP's - other than being a cool team that's helping out of course!:)

Brandon_L

14-01-2011, 18:11

I had the same question as a poured over the rules for the rankings and searched the Tournament document for the word Coopertition - nothing. Then as I looked at the Awards document I noticed there is a single Coopertition award given to the team with most cooperition points at the end of the event. That seems to be the only result for gaining CP's - other than being a cool team that's helping out of course!:)

So that's it?

It would be something cool to do but I really thought it helped somehow..

Koko Ed

14-01-2011, 18:17

Unless its planned ahead.

You mean like weeks ahead?
A few runs on the practice field before the match probably won't help all that much.

Brandon_L

14-01-2011, 19:24

You mean like weeks ahead?
A few runs on the practice field before the match probably won't help all that much.

Think even earlier.

Koko Ed

14-01-2011, 19:28

Think even earlier.

Kickoff is weeks earlier.

Brandon_L

14-01-2011, 19:44

Kickoff is weeks earlier.

After that xD

We might have a total of 3 teams working together to make the same exact minibot

Koko Ed

14-01-2011, 19:56

After that xD

We might have a total of 3 teams working together to make the same exact minibot

That sounds more like a collaborative effort than making a robot to loan out to other teams to use in other matches.
What I'm thinking of is the team that you don't know who does not have a minibot. those teams cannot be relied on for points because they are not going to know what to do most likely.

Brandon_L

14-01-2011, 20:01

That sounds more like a collaborative effort than making a robot to loan out to other teams to use in other matches.
What I'm thinking of is the team that you don't know who does not have a minibot. those teams cannot be relied on for points because they are not going to know what to do most likely.

Thats how it started out, but now we might each make one, exactly the same, and rotate them. Team A gets team C's bot, B gets C's, C gets A's for the entire event.

Koko Ed

14-01-2011, 20:08

Thats how it started out, but now we might each make one, exactly the same, and rotate them. Team A gets team C's bot, B gets C's, C gets A's for the entire event.

But how would they be able to tell whos robot is whos?
I don't think when they came up with the Coopertition points they had in mind teams doing that.

Brandon_L

14-01-2011, 20:41

But how would they be able to tell whos robot is whos?
I don't think when they came up with the Coopertition points they had in mind teams doing that.

I saw a problem with that from the beginning. Even if another team is just using it for a match, on your alliance, how do they know?? Should I/someone Q&A this?

GaryVoshol

14-01-2011, 20:44

I saw a problem with that from the beginning. Even if another team is just using it for a match, on your alliance, how do they know?? Should I/someone Q&A this?

Go and ask. You might also ask who is keeping track of the points.

Koko Ed

14-01-2011, 20:44

I saw a problem with that from the beginning. Even if another team is just using it for a match, on your alliance, how do they know?? Should I/someone Q&A this?

I would.
It sounds more like you guys are looking to play the system and that might go over badly with the judges.
make sure it's ok with FIRST so that there is no misunderstanding.

Bill_B

14-01-2011, 21:05

Not quite true, because not every team will be able to deploy your minibot. As a matter of fact, not every team will have a deployer. Teams that don't have a minibot probably won't build any sort of deployer at all.
The existence of the minibot loan "program" is the exact reason that every team should build a deployer even if they aren't building a minibot themselves. Funny thing is, I first thought that the loan program was put into place to cover the likelihood that some, and maybe many, minibots will have less than graceful conclusions to their races. That would leave a team without a possible scoring source and very little time to repair it and have it re-inspected before their next match. The breakage factor seems all the more likely given the emphasis and premium being placed on lightness for the minibots.

Koko Ed

14-01-2011, 21:23

The existence of the minibot loan "program" is the exact reason that every team should build a deployer even if they aren't building a minibot themselves. Funny thing is, I first thought that the loan program was put into place to cover the likelihood that some, and maybe many, minibots will have less than graceful conclusions to their races. That would leave a team without a possible scoring source and very little time to repair it and have it re-inspected before their next match. The breakage factor seems all the more likely given the emphasis and premium being placed on lightness for the minibots.

There is no one size fits all deployment system that is going to work with every minibot and the teams that won't build the minibot probably won't have the knowledge or ability to build a deployment system either.
I would not be surprised if there weren't many (or any) teams that will be able to take advantage of the loaner program.

waialua359

14-01-2011, 21:36

My guess is that this "borrowing" of minibots are a result of not enough kits (or cost is too high) to give to each team, given that not all teams would make one anyway.
However, making it into a game incentive to let other teams borrow, I'd agree with Ed on this one. If a team cant even create a minibot for an event, there is almost no chance they'll come with a deployment system.
I dont know about you guys, but to me, the deployment system integrated with your tube scoring bot is a lot more difficult than making the minibot itself, given the constraints this year.
My guess is that we wont have more than 1 or 2 teams per tournament (most likely none) that can accept someone elses minibot successfully..............other than the collaborating teams with duplicate bots.:ahh:

Brandon_L

14-01-2011, 21:41

I tried to post it up in Q&A but apparently I don't have access to post topics there or something. Can someone else give it a try?

Bill_B

14-01-2011, 21:48

We've both been around long enough to know the difference between "should" and "will" when it comes to robot design. I think you're right about the widespread absence of deployment mechanisms. Many teams will have enough to do to get a scoring robot running for game pieces. However, if some team were to poll their possible alliance partners for particulars on how to deploy those teams' minibots, they just might make a more viable robot by making a robot that could deploy a great number of those minibots.

That is, my strategy for a mechanically challenged team might consist of:
1. hold the ubertube, drive straight forward to score it on the highest peg it can reach. (not much movement required of the holding mechanism, release only)
2. go hang out at opposing alliance's alley and hamper robot traffic there as well as we can.
3. at the appropriate time bring someone else's minibot to the right pole, deploy it. (BTW don't wait for someone to offer a minibot. go looking for the ones you can already handle. BYOB bring your own battery :) )
4. hope our robot can be of service to some alliance on Saturday afternoon.

Being good at deploying minibots may just be the most useful skill on the field this year.