Low weight we can bring to the event

[yarden.saa]

Hi,
This year we can bring only 30 pound without the robot to the event(last year it was 65)
Isn't that very low?
My team want to keep our arm and electrical for the second robot but I don't think we will be able to do that.
Are you in the same problem?

[EricH]

Last year's allowance wasn't originally 65. It was lower than that, and raised due to really nasty weather here in the U.S.

With careful planning, I'm sure you can make it. COTS parts don't go into the allowance. The Minibot and Operator Console don't go into the allowance. Plan ahead, and I'm sure you can come up with something.

[pfreivald]

There used to be no withholding allowance!

[Tim Delles]

Sorry but I don't feel bad for you. Personally I think that it is a bit strange to be allowed to bring parts to competition. I thought that we had 6 weeks to do all of this... not until we got to competition. As you point out, with 30 pounds you could make a brand new arm and bring it that is better than what you cam up with (possibly based on something you saw at a regional). You could make new gearboxes (possibly changing your robot from single speed to shifting based on what you see or some new rule development after you ship).

But it's in the rules, and it's 30 pounds... good luck.

[nitneylion452]

Sorry but I don't feel bad for you. Personally I think that it is a bit strange to be allowed to bring parts to competition. I thought that we had 6 weeks to do all of this... not until we got to competition. As you point out, with 30 pounds you could make a brand new arm and bring it that is better than what you cam up with (possibly based on something you saw at a regional). You could make new gearboxes (possibly changing your robot from single speed to shifting based on what you see or some new rule development after you ship).

But it's in the rules, and it's 30 pounds... good luck.

This falls under GP, there's no reason why you couldn't do anything you just mentioned, but because of GP, you really really ought not do that. FIRST lays out rules that are *impossible* to enforce, but again, GP steps in and saves the day.

[Aren_Hill]

This falls under GP, there's no reason why you couldn't do anything you just mentioned, but because of GP, you really really ought not do that. FIRST lays out rules that are *impossible* to enforce, but again, GP steps in and saves the day.

Um, "GP" has nothing to do with it, if a team wants to put in the work to build an entirely new arm and bring it in that is up to them.

To quote that one guy (JVN) "design is an iterative process" and continuous improvement is the name of the game for people who are working towards Einstein.

So if you build an arm that turns out so-so, and have the possibility available to build a new one, or improvements to the old one, and you don't do it, thats your loss in competitive edge.

Nothing to do with "GP"

[XaulZan11]

Nothing to do with "GP"

Agreed. If FIRST didn't want this to happen or if they viewed improving the robot 'UnGP', they could easily get rid of the witholding allowance.

[nitneylion452]

Teams may bring a maximum of 30 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE
PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING
ALLOWANCE items) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate or lockout bag with the ROBOT

REPLACEMENT PARTS – a COMPONENT or MECHANISM constructed as a functional duplicate of an existing part of the ROBOT, for the purpose of replacing a broken or defective part.

UPGRADE PARTS - a COMPONENT or MECHANISM intended to provide additional functionality not currently available on the ROBOT. UPGRADE PARTS may be COTS items or custom FABRICATED ITEMS, and may either add to or replace existing functionality.

Blue Box:
Example: A HOSTBOT is designed with a c-channel frame. The system works well, but can be misshapen if hit aggressively. The team adds two more pieces of cchannel to brace the frame and prevent this problem. The c-channel is identical to that already on the HOSTBOT. The new pieces of c-channel would be considered UPGRADE PARTS even though they are the same as the ones already in place, as they alter the functionality of the HOSTBOT and provide new capability

It seems like what you start with is what you have to stay with for the most part. I take this to mean that you can't build an entirely new mechanism.

[Aren_Hill]

Blue Box:


It seems like what you start with is what you have to stay with for the most part. I take this to mean that you can't build an entirely new mechanism.

Re-read what you just quoted, you can bring in upgrade parts

[XaulZan11]

It seems like what you start with is what you have to stay with for the most part. I take this to mean that you can't build an entirely new mechanism.

The definition of UPGRADED parts makes me belief you can build a box bot in 6 weeks and then bring in an arm built after week 1 competitions that "adds to existing functionality...not currently available on the robot".


I personally don't like how teams can completely change their robot after seeing a dominate design. I understand continous improvement, but I don't like how it cheapens the 6 week build season. I don't have to like the rule to take advantage of it, though.

[EricH]

It seems like what you start with is what you have to stay with for the most part. I take this to mean that you can't build an entirely new mechanism.
What was the definition of UPGRADE PARTS again?

UPGRADE PARTS - a COMPONENT or MECHANISM intended to provide additional functionality not currently available on the ROBOT. UPGRADE PARTS may be COTS items or custom FABRICATED ITEMS, and may either add to or replace existing functionality. (emphasis mine)

If my robot does not have an arm, in any way, shape, or form, I can use my time between ship and events and build one from scratch. It is a FABRICATED ITEM that happens to be functioning as an UPGRADE PART, as it is giving additional functionality not currently available. As such, as long as it is within the 30 lb. Withholding Allowance, and would not cause the robot to violate any other rules, I can bring it in, fully assembled, bolt it onto my drive base, go pass inspection, and possibly win the event, without having shipped an arm from my last event (or my home shop).

Extreme example? Yes. Legal? Yes, unless someone can show me otherwise. Crazy? You know it's crazy to try that.

[yarden.saa]

I asked that because my team is building a second robot for practices as last year and we don't have the money to build a second arm so we thought to tqake the arm from our robot to the second robot as we did last year (we took the hanging).
Read Bill's Blog and you will know that it is legal to improve the 30 pound weight during the days that are not in the 6 weeks (and read the manual)

[thefro526]

So if you build an arm that turns out so-so, and have the possibility available to build a new one, or improvements to the old one, and you don't do it, thats your loss in competitive edge.



Aren, the first thing that comes to mind when I think of with holding limits are all of the Dumping mechanisms teams brought to the later regionals and championships in 2009.

If memory serves me right, it wasn't all that uncommon to see a handful of teams walk in Friday with a new Dumping Mechanism and Leave Saturday evening with a Shooter. (and in some cases a banner :P)

I imagine something similar will happen this year, with a lot of teams swapping out claws, arm mechanisms, etc as the season goes on.

[Tim Delles]

Um, "GP" has nothing to do with it, if a team wants to put in the work to build an entirely new arm and bring it in that is up to them.

To quote that one guy (JVN) "design is an iterative process" and continuous improvement is the name of the game for people who are working towards Einstein.

So if you build an arm that turns out so-so, and have the possibility available to build a new one, or improvements to the old one, and you don't do it, thats your loss in competitive edge.

Nothing to do with "GP"

In no way was I trying to say that you shouldn't do this. In fact, it is in the rules that you can bring upgraded parts, spares, etc... So you should.

The entire point, which I guess I missed, was that no one should be upset about being allowed to bring 30 pounds of material, even if it was cut down from last year.

In my opinion, you essentially turn a 6 week build season into a 20ish week build season (if you make the Championships). I do not like the rule that you are allowed to bring actual parts with you to a competition. I did however, like the 'old' days when you would bring material with you and make the parts at the competition.

Just my own preference.

Good luck all.

[Bob Steele]

i agree with the idea that is was really more fun when everyone came in crates and if you wanted to change your robot you had to do the fabrication onsite at an event. I can remember Team 71 completely rebuilding their robot onsite at a regional and being in the hunt on Saturday. It was fascinating to watch that team and what they could do with tools on hand, materials and great ingenuity and team work.

Given the 30 lb rule and the exclusion of the minibot and everything we really are approaching a time when all rules will be off..
Bring your robot and compete...

FTC is like this... and you see many teams learning from other teams and altering their robots as the season progresses.

They are both valid approaches...certainly iterative... but I like the old days...

Open the crate... build/fix/program and compete.

This year the weight restriction is really 45 lbs if you count the minibot.

Don't forget that you don't count the battery either.

[Aren_Hill]

I've found the robot builders love the witholding allowance, the parents hate it.

[Chris is me]

This falls under GP, there's no reason why you couldn't do anything you just mentioned, but because of GP, you really really ought not do that. FIRST lays out rules that are *impossible* to enforce, but again, GP steps in and saves the day.

The rules explicitly allow behavior. It is not "un-GP" to do something the Manual plainly tells you that you can do.

[nitneylion452]

Just want to say this. My original interpretation of the rule was a little unclear thanks in part to two things: 1) Last year was my and my team's rookie year and 2) the example they give in the manual isn't very good.

Thanks everyone for the clarification of this rule. It's sure going to help quite a bit.

[pfreivald]

I've found the robot builders love the witholding allowance, the parents hate it.

My wife isn't a huge fan of it either... She liked it more when ship date came and went, and then I actually got to see her for a week or two before competition. As it is, we spend literally days without seeing each other (except when one of us is unconscious) and communicating through e-mail and text messaging -- this includes both our anniversary and, of course, Valentine's Day...

...but she knows that if we want to be in the hunt for the top spot, we have to put in the time, and I'm lead mentor, so I'm in the hot seat.

I'm a lucky man! (But I'd still like to see a 'no withholding allowance' change to the rules for 2012... It evens things up for first week vs. later regionals, too.)

[nitneylion452]

... It evens things up for first week vs. later regionals, too.)

I don't think so. Week 1 regional competitors are all in the same boat. They're the first ones on the field to play the game. When they're done, they can start redesigning some mechanisms for their next regional and/or the championship. Since it's 30 lbs at each competition, there's no real advantage given to a later regional vs an early one.

[big1boom]

Last year my team took advantage of the upped withholding allowance to bring in a new robot. During Midwest we placed 2nd to last, with a robot that could barely move. Over our Spring break we built an entirely new frame, switched to mecanum, and rebuilt our kicker. To fit in the 65 pound limit last year, we had to take apart our transmissions, mecanum wheels, and pneumatics (COTS parts don't count towards the weight limit). On Thursday at 10,000 Lakes we put the puzzle back together, and managed to place 7th out of 63 teams.

This year, with the 30lbs withholding, we are probably not going to be using it quite as extensively as last year.

[Bob Steele]

I don't think so. Week 1 regional competitors are all in the same boat. They're the first ones on the field to play the game. When they're done, they can start redesigning some mechanisms for their next regional and/or the championship. Since it's 30 lbs at each competition, there's no real advantage given to a later regional vs an early one.

I think you missed his point. a NO WITHHOLDING RULE would even up the regionals.... That way everyone plays with what they "brung" in the crate or bag... or fixes it on Thursday...

As you mentioned with a 30 lb allowance you can work longer until your regional comes up...

i can certainly remember when they told us we couldn't even work on programming after ship date ...

Times have changed

[WizenedEE]

I think you missed his point. a NO WITHHOLDING RULE would even up the regionals.... That way everyone plays with what they "brung" in the crate or bag... or fixes it on Thursday...

As you mentioned with a 30 lb allowance you can work longer until your regional comes up...

With a lack of a withholding amount, I don't really think it would even out the regionals. For the teams that went to, say, a regional every week, they would have five (or so) Thursdays to improve their robot, whereas a team that only went to one regional would only get one extra day.

That said, 30 lbs is definitely enough to do some improvements.

[artdutra04]

I think you missed his point. a NO WITHHOLDING RULE would even up the regionals.... That way everyone plays with what they "brung" in the crate or bag... or fixes it on Thursday...No it wouldn't. In fact, it would have the exact opposite effect.

Teams like 71, could (and have) built an entirely new robot in the pits on Thursday using only raw materials, while most other teams could maybe fix something and that's about it. With the withholding allowance, any team can work on their spare/upgrade parts at their own pace, in their own facilities, which makes it much easier for regular teams to make performance upgrades. At the same time, teams who have literally entire machine shops in their pits, had a much easier time fixing parts or making upgrades, while those with hand drills and files struggled. The entire reason they began allowing the withholding allowance was because of the reuse of the control system and to make it easier for low- and mid-tier teams to compete with the capability of top-tier teams.

Back under the old non-withholding allowance rules, I remember a lot of fabricating in our pits of "questionable" safety, mostly due to too many people and not enough space in the pits. The worst was when we were at NJ Regional in 2004, where we probably built half our robot there. The whole thing was like playing Twister with cordless drill/hole saws, a drill press, band saw, and heat gun. I never want to do that again. Withholding allowance allows us to fabricate parts in much safer conditions in our school's shop. In fact, due to the withholding allowance, we've drastically cut down on the number of tools and equipment we bring to competitions now, and overall have a much less cluttered pit.

Besides, if you look back on anything you've already made and can't find any flaws that can be improved, you're doing it wrong.