706 deploying minibot

[Bruceb]

Here's a video of our 2011 minibot deploy and climb.
Not the fastest bot yet.
KISS on the deploy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvrbb9g9EHM

[orisenak]

nice job!
check out our deploy/climb of ours!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVMd8sCR7gA

-stuart kaneshiro
team 1056

[Chris Fultz]

Please check the rules and the Q+A.

The minibot cannot be above the plane of the 18" line after it breaks the plane of the base of the tower. Hard to tell from your video about this.

[Bruceb]

Can you site a reference? I don't interpret it that way.
Bruce

[nighterfighter]

Can you site a reference? I don't interpret it that way.
Bruce

Sure.

<G21>
HOSTBOTS may DEPLOY MINIBOTS only onto their ALLIANCE‟S TOWERS and entirely below the DEPLOYMENT LINE. Violation: RED CARD. TOWER is disabled if MINIBOT is DEPLOYED above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.

[thefro526]

Can you site a reference? I don't interpret it that way.
Bruce


<G21> HOSTBOTS may DEPLOY MINIBOTS only onto their ALLIANCE‟S TOWERS and entirely
below the DEPLOYMENT LINE.
Violation: RED CARD. TOWER is disabled if MINIBOT is DEPLOYED above the
DEPLOYMENT LINE

DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the
MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference. DEPLOYMENT ends
when the HOSTBOT is no longer in contact with the MINIBOT. (Related form, DEPLOY, verb)

G21 Alone does not make your deployment illegal, however since deployment starts at the instance the Minibot breaks the tower perimeter, your deployment would be illegal, if at any point in your arc the minibot is above 18"

[Bruceb]

Boy, read and reread that and still don't interpret it that way. No one at todays miny regional had any issue with it.
Bruce

[MrForbes]

Draw a side view of the HOSTBOT and TOWER. Draw a horizontal line between them at 18" above the TOWER BASE. Draw a vertical line at the edge of the TOWER BASE. See if your any part of your MINIBOT is above the horizontal line, when it's on the TOWER side of the vertical line. If so, you're gonna get a RED CARD if an observant ref is watching.

[Vikesrock]

Boy, read and reread that and still don't interpret it that way. No one at todays miny regional had any issue with it.
Bruce

Sorry.....

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16251&highlight=plane
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16981&highlight=plane

[boomergeek]

I don't necessarily read <G21> as prohibiting a host bot nor a minibot from breaking an imaginary plane at the height of deployment line as long as the hostbot nor the minibot is in contact with the pole.

Clearly, a host bot in contact with the pole above the deployment line, or a minibot in contact with the pole above the deployment line before the minibot has separated from the hostbot, are violations of one or more of:
<G20> ROBOTS/HOSTBOTS may not contact their own TOWERS above the DEPLOYMENT LINE. Violation: PENALTY for contact.
<G21> HOSTBOTS may DEPLOY MINIBOTS only onto their ALLIANCE‟S TOWERS and entirely below the DEPLOYMENT LINE. Violation: RED CARD. TOWER is disabled if MINIBOT is DEPLOYED above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.
<G22> HOSTBOTS may not contact their ALLIANCE‟S MINIBOT while any part of it is above the DEPLOYMENT LINE. Violation: TOWER is disabled


Chris Fultz interpretation "The minibot cannot be above the plane of the 18" line after it breaks the plane of the base of the tower." is just one potential interpretation of the rules. I would suggest Bruceb pose question to the GDC. BUT...


Correction (thanks Vikesrock): the GDC already ruled...and the vertically swinging minibot deployment in which the minbot breaks the deployment line imaginary cylinder is a violation.
http://forums.usfirst.org/member.php?u=33258


I think the deployment shown in the video meets the intended spirit of the rule and the field judges will have enough of a problem with monitoring for violation of <G21> when a pole contact is being made. I doubt most field judges would want to trust themselves to measure an imaginary cylinder at exactly 18". Will we see a special measuring tool?

[MrForbes]

Perhaps the refs or inspectors can ask you to demonstrate that the MINIBOT is entirely below the horizontal plane after DEPLOYMENT...that should be possible before/after a match?

I'd like to see the alternative interpretation, how does it work?

[dodar]

SO do the rules mean that at no part of the minibot deployment(when your hostbot moves the minibot into position to climb) can your minibot be above 18in.?

[Vikesrock]

SO do the rules mean that at no part of the minibot deployment(when your hostbot moves the minibot into position to climb) can your minibot be above 18in.?

Post #8 in this thread by Squirrel does a great job of describing the rule as interpreted by the GDC in the Q&A

[Bruceb]

Well, G21 says
<G21> HOSTBOTS may DEPLOY MINIBOTS only onto their ALLIANCE‟S TOWERS and entirely below the DEPLOYMENT LINE. Violation: RED CARD. TOWER is disabled if MINIBOT is DEPLOYED above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.
G22 says
<G22> HOSTBOTS may not contact their ALLIANCE‟S MINIBOT while any part of it is above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.

Deployment line is defined as
DEPLOYMENT LINE – located on the POST, approximately 18 inches above the top surface of the BASE.

LOCATED ON THE POST there is no reference to a plane here or anywhere. It is a line on the post so my interpretation is that your hostbot cannot touch the minibot while it is on the tower post above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.

THe deployment line does not exist anywhere but on the tower post.

Bruce

[Vikesrock]

Bruce, that unfortunately disagrees with what the GDC has ruled in the 2 Q&A posts I linked to. I would recommend posting your reasoning to the Q&A for additional clarification if you are hoping to stick with your current design.

[MrForbes]

I see now how you interpret it. Thanks for the explanation.

The deployment line makes a horizontal plane, even if that plane is not explicitly mentioned in the rules.

You can try your luck....please let us know how it works out!

[boomergeek]

Perhaps the refs or inspectors can ask you to demonstrate that the MINIBOT is entirely below the horizontal plane after DEPLOYMENT...that should be possible before/after a match?

I'd like to see the alternative interpretation, how does it work?

Alternative interpretation...
(I wrote this over the past hour while I was watching television and did not see Bruceb post which made basically the same argument)

Defined terms in the rules:

DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference. DEPLOYMENT ends when the HOSTBOT is no longer in contact with the MINIBOT. (Related form, DEPLOY, verb)

DEPLOYMENT LINE – located on the POST, approximately 18 inches above the top surface of the BASE.

No where in the manual does it define a cylinder of extending from the deployment line.

Elsewhere in the manual, it describes cylinders for violations but not for this case.

My copy of the rules from Jan11 did not have this form of deployment as a violation. This violation was added in Update #2. The GDC decided to change <G21> instead of just changing <G22>.
(They also did not add a cylinder explanation for this changed rule).

The spirit of the rule is the minibots need always remain completely below the deployment line while in contact with both the hostbot and the pole.
And that, at first contact with the pole, the minibot must be completely below the deployment line.

Do you really think the GDC specifically wanted to preclude this type of deployment? I think it is just that it was they just used the fewest words to to make up for their omission that the minibot needed to start completely below the deployment line. Maybe they were concerned about minibots very close to the pole and still above the deployment line and the potential difficulty it would cause to referees making a ruling.

BTW, my team doesn't violate this rule: we move our minibot horizontally.

There are at least a couple good lessons here:
1) Read the rules and the updates AND all the GDC Q&A
2) Post your progress here on CD and get good advice BEFORE you get officially inspected and get surprised

Writing requirements and manuals is usually a thankless job. The GDC does an excellent job. Bruceb and team have days to create an alternative deployment if Q&A does not work for them.

It's really nice that everyone is willing to be helpful.

[lucoytoa]

Here is the link to the GDC ruling on Jan 14th.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16251

Question:
The definition of Deployment states that DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference, and ends when the HOSTBOT is no longer in contact with the MINIBOT.

G21 states HOSTBOTS may only DEPLOY MINIBOTS onto their ALLIANCE‟S TOWERS and entirely below the DEPLOYMENT LINE.

May the MINIBOT be above the plane of the deployment line after the start of deployment, provided the MINIBOT and HOSTBOT are below the plane of the deployment line at the end of deployment and no other rules are violated (i.e., touching the post)?

In other words, does the deployment line create a plane that cannot be exceed by the MINIBOT from the start of deployment until the end of deployment?

GDC Answer:
No.
Yes.

[Bruceb]

Alright alright. We spend 4 hours today to basically invert our deployment mechanism. It now swings from the top and the minibot NEVER is over 30 inches from the floor.
Video to follow.
Bruce

[Bruceb]

Finally got a video of our initial test of our new deployment system.
It's a lot faster now but you get the idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NshePgWQORM

I think this is a legal configuration. The mini is never above th 30 inch line.
Bruce
btw thanks for the feedback on the other deployment system.

[Bruceb]

Any comments on this?
Bruce

[liam.larkin]

Looks like you are good now.

[R3P0]

Defined terms in the rules:

DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference.


No where in the manual does it define a cylinder of extending from the deployment line.

.

The base cylinder is 12" from the floor. If you extend the "vertical projections of the TOWER BASE circumference" you get a cylinder.

[Bruceb]

And your point is?
Bruce

[2829ron]

Finally got a video of our initial test of our new deployment system.
It's a lot faster now but you get the idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NshePgWQORM

I think this is a legal configuration. The mini is never above th 30 inch line.
Bruce
btw thanks for the feedback on the other deployment system.

How did you guys get your minibot to not fall down the pole after it hits the top? Are bot can get to the top, but coming down is not so pretty :rolleyes:

David

[Bruceb]

When it hits the top it triggers a standard 3 way switch that shorts the motor poles and turns off the power.

Bruce

[AlDee]

My team is having a difference in understanding of how close the minibot can be positioned prior to the 10 second deployment period. Our previous understanding was that the minibot had to be outside the vertical plane of the tower base until the 10 second mark. But it appears that teams at some regionals are positioning the minibot inside the vertical plane but not quite touching the pole until the 10 second mark.

Can someone clarify for me, where the minibot and hostbot can be during the last 15-10 seconds of the game?

Thanks,
--Al

[R3P0]

My team is having a difference in understanding of how close the minibot can be positioned prior to the 10 second deployment period. Our previous understanding was that the minibot had to be outside the vertical plane of the tower base until the 10 second mark. But it appears that teams at some regionals are positioning the minibot inside the vertical plane but not quite touching the pole until the 10 second mark.

Can someone clarify for me, where the minibot and hostbot can be during the last 15-10 seconds of the game?

Thanks,
--Al

Good luck with that. We had ref's saying you could not touch/break that cylinder plane at kettering, and NO bot could touch you once you were in the act of deploying.

However at A2 they would allow crossing the cylinder plane during the yellow lighted time AND a robot could slam into you during this period of time with no penalty.

So I suggest asking for clarification at your next drivers meeting. We will be asking at the the Michigan State Championships this week on how they will rule on this.

Come on First let's be consistent.

R3P0

[MagiChau]

Good luck with that. We had ref's saying you could not touch/break that cylinder plane at kettering, and NO bot could touch you once you were in the act of deploying.

However at A2 they would allow crossing the cylinder plane during the yellow lighted time AND a robot could slam into you during this period of time with no penalty.

So I suggest asking for clarification at your next drivers meeting. We will be asking at the the Michigan State Championships this week on how they will rule on this.

Come on First let's be consistent.

R3P0

If I am interpreting the rules correctly you are allowed to go over the edge of the base anytime in the match as long as you are not deploying or interacting with the tower in a way that wouldn't be defined as pushing or reacting against it. Deployment starts when the minibot moves over. End-game is the last 10 seconds of the match. The protection does not go in effect until that time.

[nighterfighter]

If I am interpreting the rules correctly you are allowed to go over the edge of the base anytime in the match as long as you are not deploying or interacting with the tower in a way that wouldn't be defined as pushing or reacting against it. Deployment starts when the minibot moves over. End-game is the last 10 seconds of the match. The protection does not go in effect until that time.

This is correct.

The HOSTBOT can break the plane WHENEVER it wants to. As long as the MINIBOT does NOT break the plane, until the last 10 seconds.

[Bjenks548]

Finally got a video of our initial test of our new deployment system.
It's a lot faster now but you get the idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NshePgWQORM

I think this is a legal configuration. The mini is never above th 30 inch line.
Bruce
btw thanks for the feedback on the other deployment system.

I'm pretty sure the deployment is still illegal... It imparts upward momentum to the minibot as it hits the pole. 469 had this same problem a week ago and had to borrow 217s deployment for the rest of the competition.