Poll: Picking up tubes [Archive]

LoganAdams

21-02-2011, 23:31

Our hope is that we can throw the circle and square almost 100% of the time down into the saftey zone, which we shouldn't have to leave, and we can just pick them up and hang them. We can't manage to throw the triangle as well, so we go to the Feeder to grab it.

Grim Tuesday

21-02-2011, 23:38

LoganAdams

21-02-2011, 23:40

Or get a teammate to ferry them for you!

Exactly what we are thinking!

Phalanx

22-02-2011, 13:42

We can consistently pick up tubes off the floor. If it's within reach of our grabber we can pick a tube off the floor and retract our arm within 3/4 of a second(.75).

Once retracted, the arm and tube are complete inside our machines frame keeping it safe and secure from being knocked off, or our arm damaged inadvertently by other robots.

Now if we can only score that quick and easy. LOL! (it's a work in progress)

Blackphantom91

22-02-2011, 14:22

We pick up tubes extremely well, If we did it any better we would crush the tubes lol.

Garret

22-02-2011, 17:58

Our gripper literally just sucks the tube up and holds it in a consistent position no matter how much it is hit. It uses a limit switch to make sure we did not suck the tubes in too far.
For us its pretty nice in that there is no real aiming/postitioning (other than driving towards it of course) required to grab the pieces, literally we just move towards it and it suck it up, it doesn't even push it forward if we hit it. Which compared to our previous robots is a really nice feature.

Swampdude

22-02-2011, 20:51

DonRotolo

22-02-2011, 20:54

Not being able to pick up from the floor will be a crippling disability in this game.

Swampdude

22-02-2011, 21:00

Not being able to pick up from the floor will be a crippling disability in this game.

why's that?

ttldomination

22-02-2011, 21:25

why's that?

1. Human Players - I've seen human players do amazing things. Heck, our human player spent 5 minutes on the field, and he was launching tubes across the field. Picking up from the floor saves time, even for a fast bot.

2. Traffic - The field is big, but with 6 moving bots, it can be smaller than one thinks. If you find yourself crossing the field to get a tube each time, I have a feeling you're going to find yourself in an efficiency dropping traffic jam.

3. Why limit yourself - Why limit yourself to the tubes that only your human player gives you? If the human players on the other alliance aren't as good, and the tubes only go halfway, then why traverse the field to get the same tubes that are sitting right there?

4. Oops - What if you are misaligned and drop the tube? Oops. This can be minimized with practice, but a ground loading robot can go back to the ground, and attempt to rescore the tube in a matter of seconds.

Perhaps crippling isn't the right word. But I think only slot loading robots will be fighting a much harder battle.

- Sunny

George A.

22-02-2011, 21:28

Not being able to pick up from the floor will be a crippling disability in this game.

I also wouldn't say crippling, but think back to 2005. The teams that were able to utilize the Auto-feeders to get their tetras had a big time advantage over teams that had to be human loaded.

DonRotolo

22-02-2011, 21:30

No, crippling. Scoring 2 or 3 tubes versus eight or more.

Prediction: No robot that cannot pick from the floor will win a week 1 regional.

Bjenks548

22-02-2011, 21:38

No, crippling. Scoring 2 or 3 tubes versus eight or more.

Prediction: No robot that cannot pick from the floor will win a week 1 regional.

I have to disagree I think there's room on a winning alliance for a defensive bot (maybe a dragonfly?). However I do think that the main scoring robots on the winning alliance will be able to floor load.

davidthefat

22-02-2011, 21:41

We don't have a function arm yet, but I don't see why not.

Ian Curtis

22-02-2011, 21:46

No, crippling. Scoring 2 or 3 tubes versus eight or more.

Prediction: No robot that cannot pick from the floor will win a week 1 regional.

If 8 tubes are scored by a single robot during a qualifying/elimination match at any event this season I will eat my shoe. Was there a robot that ever scored 8 tubes in a single match during Rack'n'Roll?

Watching the Suffield Scrimmage, 1519 and 126 had a hard time putting up 5 tubes between them. The traditional CD recognized 'top tier' might be more competitive, but they are certainly not 4 times better.

Certainly it is a handicap, but I do not think it is an insurmountable one (especially at the regional level).

Swampdude

22-02-2011, 21:48

Well I hope to prove you wrong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBUioZsYIus)

In many cases I agree with you, however the defense is the x factor. A good defender can make floor loaders waste the whole match chasing around tubes, where a human loader is protected every load. We shall see :)

vigkvagkv2

22-02-2011, 22:06

You should have included an option for feeder robots.

MaxMax161

23-02-2011, 00:23

If 8 tubes are scored by a single robot during a qualifying/elimination match at any event this season I will eat my shoe. Was there a robot that ever scored 8 tubes in a single match during Rack'n'Roll?

Judging by what our robot can do in just under 2 minutes (assuming there is a good tube ferry) and that we're not the best bot in the world, I'd look in to shoe seasonings. Ignoring minibot we can hang up to 9 maybe 10 tubes in a perfect world. While our shop circumstances are probably better then field circumstances it's worth mentioning that upwards of 2 of those 9/10 tubes were a fair amount (more then %50) deflated.

I'm not saying that we're going to hang 8+ tubes in a match (if we do I'll eat my shoe in pure awe of our drivers) but I think someone will.

BrendanB

23-02-2011, 00:28

why's that?
Look at all those tubes I'll be looking to have our drivers bring to the robots who can reach up high!

http://www.youtube.com/user/FRCteam1519#p/a/u/2/C4Mn-eVB1oE

Cory

23-02-2011, 00:34

If 8 tubes are scored by a single robot during a qualifying/elimination match at any event this season I will eat my shoe. Was there a robot that ever scored 8 tubes in a single match during Rack'n'Roll?

Watching the Suffield Scrimmage, 1519 and 126 had a hard time putting up 5 tubes between them. The traditional CD recognized 'top tier' might be more competitive, but they are certainly not 4 times better.

Certainly it is a handicap, but I do not think it is an insurmountable one (especially at the regional level).

Zero defense this year once in your zone.

Hope your shoes are tasty, cuz it's gonna happen.

BrendanB

23-02-2011, 00:39

If 8 tubes are scored by a single robot during a qualifying/elimination match at any event this season I will eat my shoe. Was there a robot that ever scored 8 tubes in a single match during Rack'n'Roll?

Watching the Suffield Scrimmage, 1519 and 126 had a hard time putting up 5 tubes between them. The traditional CD recognized 'top tier' might be more competitive, but they are certainly not 4 times better.

Certainly it is a handicap, but I do not think it is an insurmountable one (especially at the regional level).

I am with Cory, I can see it happening! If you have good feeding robot *cough 3467* feeding a good robot such as 126 or 40 I can see it happening! ;)

xSAWxBLADEx

23-02-2011, 00:47

Zero defense this year once in your zone.

Hope your shoes are tasty, cuz it's gonna happen.

i see it at nationals maybe, but i see a very low scoring game due to defense in the mid field, and dont ever say its going to happen, say it might happen you never know :)

also commenting on 179's bot its going to be monsterous its going to be fast and effective in this game you dont need to pick up from the floor cause once you throw them in you risk the chance of the opponent picking it up

Wayne TenBrink

23-02-2011, 00:52

The only thing to stop a good hanger from putting up 9 in a match is a steady supply of tubes - or lack of floor pickup. It would take some good luck and good alliance cooperation to make this happen in a qual match, but it will happen. It will be quite common in eliminations by the end of the season. The hanger will need good floor pickup and the feeders could use it too.

Also, as the season progresses defense will subside, not increase. The more time you spend on defense, the fewer tubes your alliance is hanging. Its going to turn into a footrace to fill the grid and deploy your mini.

ttldomination

23-02-2011, 00:53

In many cases I agree with you, however the defense is the x factor. A good defender can make floor loaders waste the whole match chasing around tubes, where a human loader is protected every load. We shall see :)

I think this depends on what you're chasing with. Rollers will do a considerable amount of less chasing that a claw might, with or without defense.

I mean, this is another one of those endless arguments, although this one seems to have a slightly heavily favored side. I think the best solution is duke it out at regionals.

- Sunny

Ian Curtis

23-02-2011, 01:31

Judging by what our robot can do in just under 2 minutes (assuming there is a good tube ferry) and that we're not the best bot in the world, I'd look in to shoe seasonings. Ignoring minibot we can hang up to 9 maybe 10 tubes in a perfect world. While our shop circumstances are probably better then field circumstances it's worth mentioning that upwards of 2 of those 9/10 tubes were a fair amount (more then %50) deflated.

I'm not saying that we're going to hang 8+ tubes in a match (if we do I'll eat my shoe in pure awe of our drivers) but I think someone will.

I didn't build a robot this year, and I hear Cory McBride builds good robots... so maybe I will. I'd be neat to see for sure. But I've had a pit full of teams tell me they could hurdle 4 times in a match reliably... and looked at scouting data 48 hours later to see that only 5 teams average 2. (obviously, these teams were not the Cheesy Poofs)

If someone posts a video of them scoring 8 tubes in 2 minutes with a robot in the way, I'll bite. Maybe it will happen, but I see it in a "254 vs. two toasterbots and a broken robot" deal as opposed to "254 does it every match."

Cory

23-02-2011, 02:04

I didn't build a robot this year, and I hear Cory McBride builds good robots... so maybe I will. I'd be neat to see for sure. But I've had a pit full of teams tell me they could hurdle 4 times in a match reliably... and looked at scouting data 48 hours later to see that only 5 teams average 2. (obviously, these teams were not the Cheesy Poofs)

If someone posts a video of them scoring 8 tubes in 2 minutes with a robot in the way, I'll bite. Maybe it will happen, but I see it in a "254 vs. two toasterbots and a broken robot" deal as opposed to "254 does it every match."

Certainly nobody will average 8 tubes per match, but I don't think it will be that uncommon to see a single robot score 8.

s_forbes

23-02-2011, 02:13

Wow, I'm really surprised at the poll results. I think floor loading is great, but I guess the risks of defense (tube blocking), mechanism complexity, and putting a delicate mechanism out in the bumper zone didn't bother anyone.... Plus a human load will be placed specifically vs. grabbing a tube from the field under duress. I figured maybe 60-70%, but it looks like over 90% went with floor loading... :confused:

We went into the season thinking that floor loading was the way to go (and I still stand by that, it's something I wouldn't want to be without), but after seeing the first video you guys posted hanging a logo with your static arm, we put a lot of thought into loading at the port. We have an interesting semi-automatic loading maneuver that we're looking into as a result.

Although, if we were playing against a high scoring no-floor-loading team like you guys there is a good chance that we might drop an ubertube in your lane during auto. fyi. ;)

Ian Curtis

23-02-2011, 11:03

Certainly nobody will average 8 tubes per match, but I don't think it will be that uncommon to see a single robot score 8.

I have been tipped off that at least one robot did score 8+ tubes in a match in 2007 (http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2007cur_qm12), so at this point I'm probably going to end up eating the shoe on this one. Can't wait to see you guys play!

Chris is me

23-02-2011, 11:06

I think this depends on what you're chasing with. Rollers will do a considerable amount of less chasing that a claw might, with or without defense.

Surprisingly, this isn't strictly true.

It takes a lot more engineering than a lot of teams think / thought to load a roller claw off the floor. I suspect a lot of teams will have trouble with it, thinking it just "looked easy".

Same can be said for a pinch claw, but a pinch claw can be just as good. Pinch claws are dramatically worse than roller claws only when pieces can roll away from you. These game pieces are pretty good at staying put.

Matt C

23-02-2011, 11:17

Being able to load from the floor OR the human player is a must this year IMO. I mean, if I was up against an alliance with none able to pick up from the floor, my field just got half as long because our human players should start "chuckin away!". :D One can only hope.

martin417

23-02-2011, 11:28

No, crippling. Scoring 2 or 3 tubes versus eight or more.

Prediction: No robot that cannot pick from the floor will win a week 1 regional.

If the poll results are accurate, and 90% of robots can pick up from the floor, then every alliance should have at least one bot that can do so. If your robot can hang with great speed, and floor pick up is necessary, why not have an alliance partner pick them up and hand them to you? (and I dispute your prediction)

MrForbes

23-02-2011, 11:33

Good point, Martin. It's so important that most teams made a robot that can do it, but 179 figured this out and made one that could not, because they knew they wouldn't have to.

:cool:

Tytus Gerrish

25-02-2011, 17:15

this is interesting. not even %5 are incapable of picking up tubes. I was expecting a majority

Chris is me

25-02-2011, 17:49

If the 84" rule remained the 60" rule we would not have floor loaded.

MagiChau

25-02-2011, 18:46

the GDC was fully intending to have the 84" rule since the mistake in the first place was a typo, was it not?

Floor loading I think will be critical to this year's game as one major strategy for racking up points. If your team can floor-load effectively and avoid/push defense then travel time can be cut by half with the presence of human players with an adept ability for throwing the tubes precisely and consistently. Safe zones are not much of a haven if you cannot enter them or exit them without losing time due to defense. Overall I think this is a matter of compatibility with strategies and abilities of yours and the other alliances to see what way of obtaining tubes is best, floor-loading is one game plan out of the pile.

Koko Ed

25-02-2011, 19:07

this is interesting. not even %5 are incapable of picking up tubes. I was expecting a majority

I think alot of those teams should restate their answer as they INTEND to pick up from the floor not that they CAN. Or at least not do it well with consistency.

pfreivald

25-02-2011, 19:18

I think alot of those teams should restate their answer as they INTEND to pick up from the floor not that they CAN. Or at least not do it well with consistency.

Sounds like "pit scouting" to me... Where people tell you what their robot was built to do, instead of what it can actually do...

Koko Ed

25-02-2011, 19:30

Sounds like "pit scouting" to me... Where people tell you what their robot was built to do, instead of what it can actually do...

That's what I thought when I saw the poll.
I can't stand pit scouting.
I mean for all you know your talking to an animator who never even picked up a wrench all season! Of course he's gonna say their robot can do everything. Nobody ever admits their own robot stinks.

Alex Cormier

25-02-2011, 19:34

That's what I thought when I saw the poll.
I can't stand pit scouting.
I mean for all you know your talking to an animator who never even picked up a wrench all season! Of course he's gonna say their robot can do everything. Nobody ever admits their own robot stinks.

That's why you send someone who knows a lot and doesn't need to ask any questions to learn about the robot. All you need to use is your eyes, not your voice and you can learn a lot about a robot.

Koko Ed

25-02-2011, 19:54

That's why you send someone who knows a lot and doesn't need to ask any questions to learn about the robot. All you need to use is your eyes, not your voice and you can learn a lot about a robot.

You learn more about the robot on the field than you would in the pit anyways.

Daniel_LaFleur

25-02-2011, 19:56

Certainly nobody will average 8 tubes per match, but I don't think it will be that uncommon to see a single robot score 8.

While I believe that we will see a robot hang 8 tubes (with feeding assistance), I also believe that we will see more games with less than 8 tubes hung total than single robots that hang 8.

JM(NS)HO

... And I believe that a good defensive robot playing smart defense will be worth their weight in gold ;)

Alex Cormier

25-02-2011, 19:58

You learn more about the robot on the field than you would in the pit anyways.

We were talking about pit scouting. Match scouting confirms what you think the robot can do from looking at it in the pit.

Koko Ed

25-02-2011, 20:02

We were talking about pit scouting. Match scouting confirms what you think the robot can do from looking at it in the pit.

So why waste time doing it twice?
Just keep a good database of what the robot does on the filed and go with that. Who cares what they do in the pits (unless they are sacrifice freshmen students to some otherworldly demon in the pits to make the robot work better then perhaps you should get security involved)? Otherwise you are stretching your scouting team thin having them scrambling around the pits when they should be observing robots in action and documenting what they are or are not accomplishing.

Swampdude

25-02-2011, 20:05

So why waste time doing it twice?
Just keep a good database of what the robot does on the filed and go with that. Who cares what they do in the pits (unless they are sacrifice freshmen students to some otherworldly demon in the pits to make the robot work better then perhaps you should get security involved)? Otherwise you are stretching your scouting team thin having them scrambling around the pits when they should be observing robots in action and documenting what they are or are not accomplishing.

I've found that's when many of our students learn the most, as they see the different approaches to the design challenge.

Alex Cormier

25-02-2011, 20:12

So why waste time doing it twice?
Just keep a good database of what the robot does on the filed and go with that. Who cares what they do in the pits (unless they are sacrifice freshmen students to some otherworldly demon in the pits to make the robot work better then perhaps you should get security involved)? Otherwise you are stretching your scouting team thin having them scrambling around the pits when they should be observing robots in action and documenting what they are or are not accomplishing.

I send out the kids thursday morning to gather the basic information on the teams robots.

My most important thought is for the third robot for an alliance. Drive train. If they don't have a good drive train or have issues, then they are not a good third round pick.

BrendanB

25-02-2011, 20:41

I believe BOTH systems are good for collecting data! Match scouting determines what they can do and not what they say. Teams have a tendency of saying one thing about their robot and it doesn't happen on the field such as low COG and they tip every other match and lots of scoring which also doesn't happen every match. What I do like about pit scouting is that I know what is under the hood especially in the drivebase category. It is really nice know that the I am picking a robot with a 6wd with high traction wheels to play defense rather than a mecanum/omni robot that can't push.

paragon

25-02-2011, 21:11

Yes we can.

pfreivald

25-02-2011, 21:29

Several years ago we stopped doing pit scouting altogether. If you can't perform on the field, we don't care what you were theoretically designed to do.

We haven't looked back from that decision.

MagiChau

25-02-2011, 21:50

Grim Tuesday

25-02-2011, 21:50

I use pit scouting as an excuse to talk to other people about their robots. Nothing more, besides getting a good picture of their robot.

pfreivald

25-02-2011, 22:02

I find pit scouting a method to understand more of how the robot works. Its fine knowing the robot is good, but I can't help but wanting to find the answer to why with the robot in front of me at a pit.

Quite a few people approached us at FLR and told us they had no idea how our robot worked (because it was, for the most part, 'under the hood'). They wanted to know due to engineering curiosity (which is great), but it had no bearing on success at competition. During competition, that a robot works is more important than how.

That said, I always tour the pits and look at everyone's robots... I want to know everything I can about everything I can, because knowing is always better than not knowing... But as far as the competition itself goes, it's largely irrelevant.

Tytus Gerrish

25-02-2011, 22:30

while pit scouting is not the way to get reliable information about a robot's preformance, it is a mentaly stimulating process. I voulinteer as robot inspector because checking out robots is what i like to do at the events anyways it may as well be my job there, plus free breakfast and lunch. just thinking about the array of mechanisms awaiting my examination tingles the thinky parts of my brain. i cant wait

Koko Ed

26-02-2011, 00:21

ThaineP

26-02-2011, 09:44

Our team will just hand them to the robot through the feeder slot and grab them with the claw.

Daniel_LaFleur

26-02-2011, 10:57

Several years ago we stopped doing pit scouting altogether. If you can't perform on the field, we don't care what you were theoretically designed to do.

We haven't looked back from that decision.

I believe that great alliances are built by great teams and great people, not by great robots.

One of the reasons I still believe in pit scouting is to gage the honesty and integrity of a team and it’s understanding of their own capabilities and the game strategies.

Also, having an understanding of their mechanical setup gives me an idea as to their robots compatibility with our robot.

pfreivald

26-02-2011, 14:24

Yes, yes, fair enough. Pit scouting is useless as a method of determining robot functionality, though.

MagiChau

26-02-2011, 14:52

Yes, yes, fair enough. Pit scouting is useless as a method of determining robot functionality, though.

Isn't it if the robot is not moving you cannot scout how well it performs. Pit Scouting is for a different category of information that may or may not influence your alliance picks depending on what kind of person you are.

Nelson

26-02-2011, 15:13

we took our full logo post time down to 1:15 when we threw the tubes to the robot, which we can get to the safe zone about 95% of the time.

Sean1038

26-02-2011, 16:55

We can Pick up from the floor as well as the feeder, but from our practice, we have found that we are much faster at getting the tubes from the feeder and scoring because the HP is able to positon and push the tube (scoring is much easier when your claw can grab the corner of the tube from the HP as it will not be in the way of the peg).

Nelson

26-02-2011, 16:59

Our team designed the grabber specifically to pick up tubes off of the ground, rather than from the feeder station.

Zuelu562

26-02-2011, 18:03

Currently yes, but untested with bumpers (we've already figured out how we will with bumpers on)

Ian Curtis

27-02-2011, 13:35

I believe that great alliances are built by great teams and great people, not by great robots.

One of the reasons I still believe in pit scouting is to gage the honesty and integrity of a team and it’s understanding of their own capabilities and the game strategies.

Also, having an understanding of their mechanical setup gives me an idea as to their robots compatibility with our robot.

Best response by a team captain in 6 years of pit scouting:

"What's autonomous mode?" :o

Not to mention, it's always fun to see everyone's robots. We often hung pictures of things we liked on our wall while brainstorming mechanisms in later years.

For example, after chopping away about 1/4 of our robot in our rookie year weight crunch, we were super impressed by 40 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/17432)'s foresight of drilling holes in everything before assembling the robot. So, we did the same thing (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/20471) the following year.

martin417

14-03-2011, 10:43

Nice to see that all the dire floor pickup predictions were wrong. Congratulations to team 179 on dominating the FL regional without floor pickup, and without a roller claw (another dire prediction that was without merit). I hope to see more great robots without floor pickup do well in the weeks to come!

George Nishimura

14-03-2011, 18:27

I would say picking up from the floor is a must, even if you don't use it often. If you played a strategy that involved tube starvation of one or two specific game pieces, if you had two offensive robots you could 'easily' score two logos while crippling your opponent.

Especially with a robot like 177's, where the difference between picking up from the floor and the feeder a matter of a couple of seconds, there is a case to be made for a tube starvation strategy.

Human players can throw in as many squares and triangles as they like, and hold on to the circles (I chose circle because most often circle is the one team's like to put over an ubertube). Then you would limit the number of circles to the opposition supply. If a defence bot and an offence bot concentrate on pinching circles from the opposition, you could effectively stop the other team from completing logos easily. And if there are no circles in play, get your quickest robot to go to the feeder and finish the logo, while the other offence bot sets up the logos.

Just a thought that I'm sure other people have previously thought of/expressed.