how to throw tubes [Archive]

little.goetz

24-02-2011, 15:13

Our human player has been practicing, and is able to reliably get the tubes 3/4 across the field (at minimum). He is jumping and throwing them over the top of the alliance station.

If you look at the Robonauts' robot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lRtC8wBUa0&feature=player_embedded), you can see that 35s in, their human player is throwing around the alliance station.

I've looked in the rules, and the only thing I can see that that violates is G36: "GAME PIECES may not be intentionally placed out of bounds. "

Would you agree with me, or is this something that we can do; since it would make throwing the tubes slightly easier.

nuggetsyl

24-02-2011, 15:31

I watched it a few times i am not sure i agree. Besides that WOW that kid can throw. I would like to hire him for NJ.

EricH

24-02-2011, 15:33

I would disagree, and say further that if the Robonauts (or any other team) does that in competition, it will be a penalty. <G57> explicitly states that tubes cannot be thrown around the side of the Feeder Station. That rule, as far as I can tell, has not been changed since Kickoff.

Chris is me

24-02-2011, 15:35

I would suggest not throwing tubes "discus-style", instead throwing them vertically. You'll have a bit more success that way.

However, if you're throwing tubes, I don't think you're executing the optimal strategy for this game, in my opinion. You'll want to carefully consider it.

Jared Russell

24-02-2011, 15:38

However, if you're throwing tubes, you're doing something wrong.

I would hold onto this quote for discussion in late April :)

nuggetsyl

24-02-2011, 15:39

I just watched it again. I think the HP on 118 throw is perfectly legal. The only thing i am is jealous lol.

Jeff Waegelin

24-02-2011, 15:40

I watched the throws pretty closely, and they definitely go over the top, not around the side. Very impressive throwing.

EricH

24-02-2011, 15:53

I just watched it again. I think the HP on 118 throw is perfectly legal. The only thing i am is jealous lol.
Questionable. It looked like a corner went over the top while the rest went over the "around the side" area. I don't think a corner over the top quite counts as being over the top. That's one that could go either way.

At 42 seconds, try to get the tube showing up as it goes past the wall. That looks a lot more legal; there's wall on both sides. Admittedly it's awful close to the top of the wall, but still has a lot of carry.

If I was a referee, I'd issue a caution or maybe a penalty on the first throw and nothing on the second throw. Note that I'm not a referee.

The throwing style doesn't matter. What matters is going over the top of the station (or through the slot), not around the side of the wall, and getting the tube to where it needs to be without somebody on the other alliance intercepting. How you do that is up to you.

Nathan Pell

24-02-2011, 15:57

Do like we did, and have the robot do it for you :)

Bob Steele

24-02-2011, 16:02

I would hold onto this quote for discussion in late April :)

I would like to second your quote.....
Originally I thought that we wouldn't see many tubes thrown... but I tend to think that may not be the case now...

I think that acquiring a tube off the floor quickly will be a big advantage in this game..

We shall see though...

Good luck to everyone!!

KrazyCarl92

24-02-2011, 16:03

Steven Donow

24-02-2011, 16:30

Hmm looking at that throw, it may be legal. I think it would just come down to how observant/what angle the judge is at. Personally, if you want to get the tubes to roll, tomahawking them might just be best. Also, I think between throwing to the side/at an angle, and putting your hands/fingers through the feeder station, I think we're gonna see plenty of penalties coming from HPs this year.

Duke461

24-02-2011, 17:34

I think what we need is for the GDC to confirm what "around the side" means. Using common sense, I would think that it means that the tube is thrown entirely around the side of the wall, which makes all of 118's throws entirely legal.

Actually, i think common sense would tell you that any part of it cannot go around the side. so basically, if you added a side wall, it could not touch that wall. But, it's a good Q for the Q&A. (Oh boy, Team Update #14 :o )

EricH

24-02-2011, 17:46

If you were to lean a triangle tube up against the field border, let's say on the inside, and the top corner was over the field border, is the tube now outside the field? Would you say the same if the tube was suspended in the air by some means, say an updraft, and not otherwise moving?

Now let's put the tube on the outside leaning up against the wall, same conditions otherwise. Is it now inside the field? How about if it's suspended?

GaryVoshol

24-02-2011, 17:48

I agree, it should be asked to the Q&A. <G57> During the TELEOPERATED PERIOD, FEEDERS may enter LOGO PIECES onto the FIELD by using the FEEDING SLOTS or by throwing the LOGO PIECE over the top of the FEEDER STATION wall. LOGO PIECES may not be thrown around the side of the FEEDER STATION wall. Violation: PENALTY
Does "over the top" mean at least 6.5 feet in the air? Then we're OK. Does "may not be thrown around the side" mean below 6.5 feet in the air, hooked around the end of the WALL? Then these throws are still OK.

It's questionable if the rule means the tube cannot ever be outside the vertical projection of the edge of the STATION WALL, even if the tube is higher than the WALL. That's what has to be determined.

My advice? Without a definitive ruling of what "around the side" means, make it obvious that the tube goes "over the top". Don't make questionable throws.

Hawiian Cadder

24-02-2011, 19:38

one feeder wont be able to throw like that anyway unless they are left handed. the other person might be able to pull off a side arm trow, but i think tossing over the top and letting it roll is a better solution. if your HP has enough skill i think circles and maybe squares will be thrown, triangles should be held.

delsaner

24-02-2011, 19:55

We have done tests, and we came to the conclusion that a vertical throw and letting it roll is the best solution in regards to throwing tubes. The circle rolls like a circle should role, the square can actually get to the far side of the field this way, and the triangle is too inconsistent to be thrown without the concern of having it go into the opponents feeder stations. A recommendation is to just put through the slot and have it land near the tower, but still within the feeder station boundaries.

DonRotolo

24-02-2011, 20:08

Indeed, squares roll much better than you'd think a square could.

Tetraman

24-02-2011, 20:40

http://i56.tinypic.com/332papl.png

The video of 118's human player seems to be throwing the tube between the line of the known Legal and ?? areas. What the rules say should be taken as written unless otherwise noted in a "spirit of the rule" clarifacation. Therefore while I'd rather side with the throw being legal, seeing as it takes the tube must use more space beyond the complete vertical "above the player station wall", the throws seen would be illegal at least in my eyes. I see this rule getting a week 1 clarifacation.

However, this being a thread about throwing tubes, the worst way to throw a tube is to "push it" forward. They need to be thrown, almost with a whipping action.

Also, the thought of tubes crashing into each other mid-flight from two opposite sides of the field sounds awesome.

Cyberphil

24-02-2011, 20:50

I would like to second your quote.....
Originally I thought that we wouldn't see many tubes thrown... but I tend to think that may not be the case now...

I am starting to think the same thing... ;)

EagleEngineer

24-02-2011, 21:58

The technique that me and another person on my team have been practicing is throwing the tubes will having you back toward the wall, and jumping and throwing it behind your back. I could consistantly get the tube in our scoring zone, but i don't were going to see to many tubes scored by human players. Well see at the regionals...

Snalios

24-02-2011, 22:09

I agree its quite impressive; however from what I've seen almost every robot will have some sort of lifting mechanism that will prove to be quite the obstacle. And combined with the minibot poles, I think A LOT of tubes will be intercepted by a pole or robot.

ttldomination

24-02-2011, 22:11

However, if you're throwing tubes, I don't think you're executing the optimal strategy for this game, in my opinion. You'll want to carefully consider it.

Luckily your opinion is just what it is, an opinion. My opinion is that if you're not throwing tubes, you're not executing the optimal strategy for this game. You'll want to carefully consider it.

I'll even go as far as to say that by worlds, we'll see a class of human players that can toss the tubes clear across the field very consistently, and when the second pick of the alliance rolls around, having a HP with a shotgun arm will NEVER hurt.

- Sunny

PaW

24-02-2011, 22:26

I'll even go as far as to say that by worlds, we'll see a class of human players that can toss the tubes clear across the field very consistently, and when the second pick of the alliance rolls around, having a HP with a shotgun arm will NEVER hurt.

Agree. Remember Lunacy and the Super Cells? After a few matches and scouting the human players, you knew exactly where you needed to be if up against that team (eg. at the other end of the field with the trailer as far from the HP as possible!). A good human player can make a difference...a good arm and intelligent gameplay can make up for a team with a suboptimal robot.

Tetraman

24-02-2011, 22:40

I point to Overdrive and a topic I made (This one) (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65103) about the concept of Tempo. I believe that I need to expand it to be a much more universal theory of FRC gameplay, but once you get what I'm saying, it pretty much goes like this:

If you can score in 10 seconds, you will have a better chance to score more points than it takes someone to score in 15 seconds. Whatever it is that is able to cut down on the time you can grab a tube and score, will speed up your tempo and speed in effective scoring.

Someone will look at that and say "Well obviously, the faster you can get a tube on the pegs the more points you'll score." - but that isn't the point of tempo. Think of EVERY aspect of the game, from getting a tube, to aligning yourself with a tube, to gripping the tube, to lifting the tube, to scoring the tube to getting the next tube. Every part affects your tempo.

If you have a robot that can score as fast as anything, you will still be slower or about the same speed as a robot that has trouble getting on the peg so long as you get the tube from the human player and the other gets their tube from the middle of the field.

Tempo in every aspect, not just a fast robot.

If you can't pick up from the floor and can only get from the human player, you will need much faster drive train to make up for the slower parts of your tempo. Tempo from having to get the tube from a further location is slower or about equal to the tempo of retrieving a tube from the floor somewhere it was chucked. And if you can save time by getting the tube closer to your scoring area, the faster your scoring tempo will go.

MaxMax161

28-02-2011, 14:00

So far we've mainly used the tomahawk method partly because it worked great when we first tried it and partly because we have a low ceiling in our practice area (the school caff). We can't get the gym space between now and our first regional Trenton but after that we plan to revisit talks about the Frisbee method and try to get gym space to practice it.

JesseK

28-02-2011, 15:54

EricH

28-02-2011, 17:17

Bit of a 'duh' moment here ... you rules junkies should brace yourselves...

If the tube thrower is right-handed and prefers to launch the tubes discus-style OVER the wall -- then put him/her on the LEFT side of the field. This way the tube will never be in question of going around the side of the wall or hitting the corner. (Just watch out if you're the driver next to the discus :ahh:).
Problem with the left side is that you've got the net to deal with, er, avoid. If I really, really wanted to stretch a bit, I might also be able to make the case that going over the Driver's station is also a Penalty--see the above discussion, particularly the picture with the "gray area"--but I'm not going to try, as hitting the net and having the piece fall into the Driver's station where you can't get it should be penalty enough and then some.

little.goetz

01-03-2011, 00:08

Lots of good stuff here, thanks. It's really hard to see how the HP for 118 throws their tubes, so what style of throw do you guys use? For us, our HP extends his arm upwards so that it clears the top of the AS, and throws it. He can get it 3/4 + of the way across the field, but that throwing style is awkward. Do you think that 118 can get the distance they can (including scoring a tube) because of how they throw, or because of the spin/force/whatever.

nikeairmancurry

01-03-2011, 00:34

Luckily your opinion is just what it is, an opinion. My opinion is that if you're not throwing tubes, you're not executing the optimal strategy for this game. You'll want to carefully consider it.

I'll even go as far as to say that by worlds, we'll see a class of human players that can toss the tubes clear across the field very consistently, and when the second pick of the alliance rolls around, having a HP with a shotgun arm will NEVER hurt.

- Sunny

I very much agree... Time saved is points earned.. And I'm pretty sure from what tubes that will be stolen from you, you will steal back from teams that really can't hold on the tube or other teams throwing also....

TEE

01-03-2011, 16:40

Hahaha, whether or not that particular throw from 118's HP was legal, it was high enough to get over the wall, so if he were to throw from the other side of the driver's station (so it would arc through the middle of the field), he'd be fine.

I personally spent some time trying to learn how to throw those tubes, and I've had some comparable to that throw (they landed in the zone... not on the bottom peg lol), but throwing the tube in an arc like that requires incredible precision... let go of the tube slightly early or slightly late and you're toast, as the tube can arc out of bounds on one side, the other side, hit a tower, another robot, land in one of the opponents' lanes, or do something unexpected if it's a square or a triangle.

Brandon Holley

01-03-2011, 17:34

Just like in baseball, if we can find some human players capable of far yet precise throwing that are LEFT HANDED, they will be a leg up over the righties.

-Brando

Chris is me

01-03-2011, 17:37

Arcing tubes isn't the way to do it.

Hold them vertically and throw them over your head, backward. :)

Chris86

01-03-2011, 17:42

We definitely weren't planning on throwing tubes at all, but if its a strategy we see working, definitely will convert our HP to a tube-throwing machine lol. I'll be interested to see what penalties/limitations FIRST will place on tube throwing that the rules arent completely clear about at this point. (Especially since if a HP player touches/crosses into driver station, he'll face penalties)

Possible cons:
Tube stealing - if the other alliance hoardes even all of one shape, you're over.
Repeatedly throwing a tube out of bounds (regardless of intention) will most likely result in penalties after the first time

But of course, any tube that is on your alliance's side of the field is quicker points so we'll see what happens! I'm excited to watch week 1 =D

Scoutin' Master

01-03-2011, 18:14

This is an excellent discussion on the rules of the game.
From a frame of the 118 video that is attached to this reply you can see that in order to determine if the tube is crossing the vertical projection of the wall, this camera angle is not sufficient. We viewers can only guess because we are not seeing directly down the wall/out-of-bounds perimeter. As the tube flies through the air it looks like it takes a curve to the right (possibly over the wall) before hooking back left. This I believe, when watched at normal speed, is what gives the optical illusion of the human player throwing the tube around the side of the alliance station wall. However, I can only guess if the tube actually crossed the vertical projection of the wall.

As far as the actual technique for human players to use, I have some opinions. However, I must clarify that I am not affiliated with an FRC team this year and have not had the chance to throw game pieces or see others do so.
All that to say that I think the throwing style used by 118's human player is very effective for their purposes. I would also suggest that human players use their full allotment of alliance station floor to create momentum that will translate to a game piece being thrown further.

My advice? Without a definitive ruling of what "around the side" means, make it obvious that the tube goes "over the top". Don't make questionable throws.

That's my suggestion as well. Play it safe to prevent penalties.

Oh, and I'm sorry if my post is a bit wordy and sounds like a textbook.
I blame college!!!

TEE

01-03-2011, 21:39

Arcing tubes isn't the way to do it.

Hold them vertically and throw them over your head, backward. :)

This... just don't overdo it, or your abs will pay...

rutzman

01-03-2011, 21:46

This... just don't overdo it, or your abs will pay...

Seconded. I'm still hurting from throwing like this on Saturday.

ATH1RSTYM00SE

02-03-2011, 12:55

I believe the way he throws it is legal but from what i know, the human player zone is quite small and he may not have the room to wind up and launch the tubes comfortably.

Brian Ha

02-03-2011, 13:39

Alpha Beta

02-03-2011, 14:53

Just like in baseball, if we can find some human players capable of far yet precise throwing that are LEFT HANDED, they will be a leg up over the righties.

-Brando

Our main strategy was to punch the tube to the end of the lane. Like everyone else we are now considering the virtues of a thrown tube. For those who cannot simulate a full field, Thursday will be prime practice time for human players. If it works out for us our designated HP is left handed. :rolleyes:

We are hoping that throwing tubes will not be necessary. We are preparing as if it will be. It is like an "arms race". We will do what we have to to keep up at the regional level. I'm fairly certain we will have to throw to be competative if we make it to champs.

Alpha Beta

03-03-2011, 17:43

Next week we will be instructing our human player to practice throwing on Thursday to get an idea of what is possible. Still not planning to feature that skill on Friday and Saturday if we don't have to. We tried it last night throwing over our 6 ft 6 inch tall covered trailer. Circles and Squares each had flights that landed within a foot of the 7 foot zone and easily bounced in. No luck with triangles.

XaulZan11

03-03-2011, 17:50

Okay so a few days ago while we were talking about throwing the tubes over the wall, why not make a robot that does that??? Move the robot into the safe zone, have a little slot that you can put tubes into and then one by one have the robot which can aim better and be stronger than we can shoot the tube all the way to the peg wall and if your good enough make it on the pegs? This would be like 469's design last year of them making their robot to the field. Seriously though wouldn't that make more sense than having a hp who has to get really good at throwing the tubes over the wall?

I've been waiting to see a team build a robot to do this nearly all season. Sadly, I don't think anyone took the risk. Its too bad, if a team could get a roughly 90% accuracy and a super fast minibot, they would nearly be a lock for eliminations at any event.

Vikesrock

03-03-2011, 17:51

I've been waiting to see a team build a robot to do this nearly all season. Sadly, I don't think anyone took the risk. Its too bad, if a team could get a roughly 90% accuracy and a super fast minibot, they would nearly be a lock for eliminations at any event.

Somebody did (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93052&highlight=1875)

Chris is me

03-03-2011, 17:55

Patrick Seeney

03-03-2011, 21:04

Arcing tubes isn't the way to do it.

Hold them vertically and throw them over your head, backward. :)

I agree, so far, this seems to be the most consistent technique for throwing tubes. Although throwing it discus style is the most fun ::safety::

Nelson

04-03-2011, 12:42

I have had more succes with a forward hammer throw, I can reliably get the tubes to the safety zone, and facing forward you have more accuracy with where the tube ends up.

BX MARK

04-03-2011, 17:54

Okay so a few days ago while we were talking about throwing the tubes over the wall, why not make a robot that does that??? Move the robot into the safe zone, have a little slot that you can put tubes into and then one by one have the robot which can aim better and be stronger than we can shoot the tube all the way to the peg wall and if your good enough make it on the pegs? This would be like 469's design last year of them making their robot to the field. Seriously though wouldn't that make more sense than having a hp who has to get really good at throwing the tubes over the wall?

I thought of this the other day to. Even if they cant score the tubes by throwing them they will be ideal as a feeder.