Multiple Minibots?

[nnfuller]

So after looking through the rules, i was unable to find out if a team could produce multiples of their minibot, possibly to give to their alliance members and such? Is there a rule against this?

[elemental]

Yes you can produce multiple minibots. It is actually encouraged since you don't know what damage your own minibot could incur and the more you lend your minibot, the more coopertition points you can earn.

[Matt C]

Assume that your Minibot will be completely destroyed no less than 2 times.

[Alpha Beta]

Assume that your Minibot will be completely destroyed no less than 2 times.

:ahh: :ahh: :ahh:

I guess that is why we built 3. ;)

(I thought we built three so we could display one in the pit, use one on our own robot, and have a third for an eliminiation alliance partner should they be able to deploy it.)

[dodar]

Are extra minibots considered spare parts?

[Zuelu562]

Are extra minibots considered spare parts?

Minibots are automatically part of the withholding allowance, and therefore you can bring as many as you've got.

[Jimmy the Kidd]

Just to capitalize on this thread, and to point to specific rules, here's my thread. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93036)

[Joe Schornak]

I know FIRST's rules regarding the sharing of minibots, but what about sharing deployment systems? Since it's unlikely that you'll find another team with a deployment system exactly matched to your minibot, it could be advantageous to have a simple attachable deployment system associated with it.

If I were to manufacture a number of simple mechanical devices before an event and distribute them to other teams at the event, how would they fit into the rules? Would they be considered COTS, despite not being widely available or commercially sold? Would it be illegal as a game-specific component, as per the text after Section 4.1? Would there devices be considered upgrade parts? How would it fit into the common FRC practice of helping other teams improve the functionality of their robots?

[Alpha Beta]

I know FIRST's rules regarding the sharing of minibots, but what about sharing deployment systems? Since it's unlikely that you'll find another team with a deployment system exactly matched to your minibot, it could be advantageous to have a simple attachable deployment system associated with it.

If I were to manufacture a number of simple mechanical devices before an event and distribute them to other teams at the event, how would they fit into the rules? Would they be considered COTS, despite not being widely available or commercially sold? Would it be illegal as a game-specific component, as per the text after Section 4.1? Would there devices be considered upgrade parts? How would it fit into the common FRC practice of helping other teams improve the functionality of their robots?

Teams make parts for each other all the time. I don't see a problem here. They would have to reinspect after the upgrade which makes the time crunch between qualification matches a little difficult. There is a required reinspection before eliminiation rounds start.

[GaryVoshol]

You can make parts for other teams' robots. You can't sell it to them, because you're not a VENDOR. But you can give it to them, and then they have to include it in their Bill of Material costs.

But if a team uses multiple deployment systems, the weight in total of all the systems they may choose to use at any time during the event must be included in their inspected weight. See the blue box in <R11> for an example calculation.

[boomergeek]

I think the total weight of the shipped robot plus withholding allowance is intended to be 120 lbs.
Additional fabricated items that are not explicitly spare parts are not intended to be allowed to be brought to a competition site for use on other robots:
If it were, then two teams could collude to totally circumvent the withholding allowance by bringing an unlimited amount of fabricated parts for each other's robot but not their own. (Heck, if the rules were that loose, you could bring a whole second fabricated robot and give it to another team to use in place of their own.)

I would say you can bring spare minibot deployers above your withholding allowances if and only if they are explicitly to be used as spare replacement parts for your own robot- not fabricated parts for robots that might be your alliance partners.

That said, a team can bring as much raw material as they like and fabricate as many minibot launchers as possible during the times the pits are open.

Do others see it differently?

The real question is: how would the GDC instruct robot inspectors to see it?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I think the total weight of the shipped robot plus withholding allowance is intended to be 120 lbs.
The real question is: how would the GDC instruct robot inspectors to see it?
Not exactly. The shipped weight can be anything you wish to pay for in excess of the 400 Lbs including crate. The withholding allowance is very specific.
<R33> Teams may bring a maximum of 30 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE items) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate or lockout bag with the ROBOT.
There are three exceptions to this rule:
A. the OPERATOR CONSOLE is not included in the incoming parts weight restriction,
B. the MINIBOT is not included in the incoming parts weights restriction, and
C. any competition legal12V batteries and their associated half of the Anderson cable quick connect/disconnect pair (including no more than 12” of cable per leg, the associated cable lugs, connecting bolts, and insulating electrical tape) are not included in the incoming parts weight restriction.

As to deployment systems, any system that is part of a robot during competition must be inspected with such system prior to any match in which the system is on the robot. If the system is in addition to a system that the team built for their robot it must be all weighed together and must be under 120lbs.
<R11>When determining weight, the basic ROBOT structure and all elements of all additional mechanisms that might be used in different configurations of the ROBOT shall be weighed together. Included in the weight limit are the robot control system, decorations, and all other attached parts.

[boomergeek]

Al,

Thanks for the correction.

The question is: other than minibots, how many pounds of fabricated items can a team bring intended to be used on OTHER teams robots? (For example, fabricated minibot deployment mechanisms).

I think the answer is Zero pounds. Do you interpret it a different way?

You can bring as much COTS and raw material as you like but anything fabricated (that is not COTS and is not part of your allowed robot weight or part of your withholding for YOUR robot) needs to be fabricated at the competition during open pit time.

As to your own robot, if you are bringing 30 pounds of spare parts ( duplicates of fabricated mechanisms on your robot) then the spirit of the rule, the robot you ship can be 120 pounds. If you bring 0 pounds of fabricated spare parts, then the robot you ship should only be 90 pounds. The robot you ship can be more than 90 pounds if it contains unmodified COTS or raw materials as ballast.

I think some teams bend the spirit of this rule by shipping a robot that starts weighing more than 120 pounds and then bring in 30 more pounds of additional different fabricated items. Then they modify to get under 120 pounds by picking the "best" of the 150+ pounds of fabricated items.

For example, if a team shipped a robot that weighed 120 pounds (with a fabricated arm that did not work well) and then decided that they wanted to fabricate a new and improved and dramatically different arm that weighed 30 pounds. Could they, in the spirit of the rule, bring in that arm knowing that they had already shipped a robot that weighed 120 pounds?

[GaryVoshol]

The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE also includes UPGRADE parts, so yes, you can bring in a new arm to replace the one that you shipped.

There is nothing in the shipping or WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE rules that limit how many pounds of ROBOT you ship. Many teams ship ROBOTS weighing more than 120 pounds - sometimes unfortunately significantly more :eek: - and must reduce the weight of the ROBOT to pass inspection.

[boomergeek]

"There is nothing in the shipping or WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE rules that limit how many pounds of ROBOT you ship"

I think it is clear that shipping 3 whole 120 lb robots (still under 400 lbs) breaks the spirit of the how much fabricated material that is available to a team at the competition site.

A team can't ship both a practice bot and their production bot and then give their practice bot to another team to use in competition.
(They possibly can do that if they give the practice robot away to the other team and the other team ships it as their robot before the shipping deadline.)

If a team on Thursday shows up to inspection with a 115 lb robot and then on Friday shows up for reinspection with 60 pounds of different fabricated parts, then does the inspector have the obligation to ask if the fabricated parts came from a reasonable interpretation of the withholding allowance for that specific team or whether they came from fabrication outside of the competition site (or a bunch of non-replacement fabricated parts that were shipped within the 400 lb shipping limit)?

I'm just looking for a reasonable interpretation of the spirit of the rules...

Prior to competition, can a team fabricate minibot deployment parts with the express intent of giving to another team to use?

Is there any limit on weight of fabricated items other teams to use?
(If you have a 60 lb drivetrain module design, can you ship five instances of the drivetrain and try to convince other teams to replace their drivetrains with yours?)

(I would not think so).

If the drivetrain scenario is not be consistent with the intent of the rules, then why would prefabricating minibot deployers for other teams be within the rules?