Lessons learned for Week 2 Regionals? [Archive]

pfreivald

05-03-2011, 06:01

1. If you don't have a roller claw on your robot (and are not the Thunder Chickens), seriously consider replacing whatever manipulator you have with a WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE roller claw.

2. Throwing tubes is a great idea if you offensively outclass your opponents. However, if you are offensively outclassed by your opponent, throwing tubes onto the field is a bad idea. The number of times I saw alliances enthusiastically feeding tubes to their opponents is stunning. I know that human players feel the need to be *DOING SOMETHING*, but this was a repeated tactical mistake that made difficult games completely one-sided.

3. Make sure the firmware on your driver's station is the latest version. The inspectors were sloppy at FLR, and lots of teams had the wrong version. The FTA will disable your robot for the match if this is the case, and this will be a sad thing for you!

ATannahill

05-03-2011, 06:39

1. If you don't have a roller claw on your robot (and are not the Thunder Chickens), seriously consider replacing whatever manipulator you have with a WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE roller claw.

I disagree with this. I saw many teams today that scored effectively without a roller claw (67). I also saw a roller claw break and make the robot useless besides the minibot.

PayneTrain

05-03-2011, 08:53

A well built manipulator should work most/all the time...
25 doesn't like your reasoning.

Jeffy

05-03-2011, 10:46

bam-bam

05-03-2011, 11:38

It seems that the alliances at FLR throw the white tubes out first.
It looks like that the white tubes roll into the zone on the other side.

1. If you don't have a roller claw on your robot (and are not the Thunder Chickens), seriously consider replacing whatever manipulator you have with a WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE roller claw.

And what is a withholding allowance claw?

Chris is me

05-03-2011, 12:36

1. If you don't have a roller claw on your robot (and are not the Thunder Chickens), seriously consider replacing whatever manipulator you have with a WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE roller claw.

Honestly, I saw more poorly implemented roller claws than amazing ones. It seems they are a degree of difficulty harder than a solid pincher.

J93Wagner

05-03-2011, 15:33

And what is a withholding allowance claw?

I think that what he meant was that you should bring in a roller claw within the withholding allowance (that rule which allows teams to bring in fabricated parts if you didn't know) to replace whatever you might have for a manipulator.

At least, that is my interpretation.

But anyway, what I've been seeing in the stream is that there is no part of the match that is overwhelmingly important. If you have a great minibot, that will make up for a sub-par manipulator or just lack a manipulator anyway. Otherwise, having a great manipulator can do the opposite, making up for not having a minibot in the first place (although the attempt to have one should occur anyway).

HarveyAce

05-03-2011, 16:24

Minibots only seemed to decide the game if one team had it and the other didn't/couldn't deploy.

As for manipulators, i saw a great many good pincer manipulators, and a great many good rollers. It comes down to each teams implementation of the feature. some did it better than others. I think 2 or all (i don't remember which) of the blue alliance from finger lakes final had pincers, and they did EXTREMELY well in the finals. the minibots decided the last two matches. Blue made a comeback in the second round just by minibots, but lost the next by the same. Great regional for anyone who watched.

PayneTrain

05-03-2011, 16:52

One of the two scoring methods (good manipulator or minibot) will get you into elims. However, you need both of those things on at least two alliance partners to win elims.

But can we really say we didn't already kinda know this?

Jeffy

05-03-2011, 17:59

5/6 #1 seeds won the regional.
1/6 #3 seeds won the regional.
It appears the ranking system is doing its job.

Few others:
Having two minibots will make you a great alliance.
Having two sub-2 second minbots will make you an outstanding alliance.
Ubertubes are really worth 12 points because any decent alliance will score a logo over the ubertube.
Like minbots, scoring two ubertubes on the top rack will make you great, 3 and you are near unbeatable.

The only time you will ever see a scoring rack completely filled up is at the end of the day.

Go for the top rack or find some other way to help the alliance.

Many alliances never entered the lane. I suspect this will change in the coming weeks.

Jared Russell

05-03-2011, 18:15

At NJ, it looked like the tubes were still quite overinflated - many teams had difficulty floor loading for this reason. FIRST said that a template was being used to regulate this, but I'm not sure that was the case (or perhaps there is some confusion over the proper way to use the template).

Either pray that this was an isolated incident, or start planning now about what you would do if you encounter tubes that are larger than you had designed for.

Lil' Lavery

05-03-2011, 18:17

Echoing Jared's statement. The tubes in NJ were indeed over-inflated.

Dad1279

05-03-2011, 18:37

Echoing Jared's statement. The tubes in NJ were indeed over-inflated.

We were watching them repair tubes, they were using wooden gauges as per Bill's Blog.

Edit: I saw them in use from the stands, don't know if they were used properly. However, I'm building gauges tomorrow and checking our tubes.....

Akash Rastogi

05-03-2011, 18:45

We were watching them repair tubes, they were using wooden gauges as per Bill's Blog.

The tubes were being struggled into the gauges. I lol'd.

Eagleeyedan

05-03-2011, 19:05

The middle becomes full of tubes so if you can pick up off the ground, that's great but if you can't, you really need to be able to. Also, if a tube gets stuck in the safe zone and you can't pick it up, you are kinda stuck..expecially if it's an uber tube in which case you won't be able to anyway.

Vikesrock

05-03-2011, 19:08

expecially if it's an uber tube in which case you won't be able to anyway.

G16 only penalizes you for hanging an ubertube in teleop. There is no rule preventing you from possessing one.

Lil' Lavery

05-03-2011, 19:25

We were watching them repair tubes, they were using wooden gauges as per Bill's Blog.

Using them and using them properly are two very different things.

Eagleeyedan

05-03-2011, 19:25

G16 only penalizes you for hanging an ubertube in teleop. There is no rule preventing you from possessing one.

Oh, that is true. I just didn't have the most recent version of the manual. Thanks!

pfreivald

05-03-2011, 19:38

Some of you who are harping on my comment ignored the qualifier, "seriously consider"...

I didn't say "OMGZORZ YOU NEED 2 REDESIGN UR ROBOTZ!!!11!!!1!!elebenty!!"

For what I saw, I stand by my initial assessment. I am quite certain that some people will disagree -- and that's okay.

Jim Wilks

05-03-2011, 19:51

One of the two scoring methods (good manipulator or minibot) will get you into elims. However, you need both of those things on at least two alliance partners to win elims

The third thing that stood out to me at FLR was the huge spread in driver skills. Many teams seemed to be just learning how to drive their robots. Driving into the tower bases while picking up a tube or knocking down another tube while placing one are just not good signs. The few teams that had their driving skills down to a science did really well.

PayneTrain

05-03-2011, 19:55

I believe somoene in the live chat noted how some of the teams "just sit confused" in the field.

thefro526

05-03-2011, 20:10

Minibots are more important than tubes. If you don't have a minibot, go make one. If you don't have a deployment system, go make one of those too. Seriously.

Even though the game is called "Logomotion" in most Qualification matches I played in and saw, Tubes could not, and did not offset the points scored by a single minibot.

The tubes aren't a constant size. Make sure your gripper can grab anything between 6" and 9".

(Seriously though, I really hope that Team update 17 comes out and devalues the minibot race by at least 1/3rd. 30 points is way too much for first place, especially considering that you need to make two complete logos on the top row to offset ONE minibot going up the pole and getting first place. Why call the game Logomotion if it's not about making the FIRST logo? If we wanted to play with mini robots then we'd go play in FTC or VRC.)

Chris is me

05-03-2011, 20:12

If we wanted to play with mini robots then we'd go play in FTC

But that's what FIRST wants, remember? They made the minibot race dramatically huge so that we'd invest in the FTC kit, hopefully competing in the 2011-2012 FTC game.

It's too bad the most competitive minibots involve modifying Tetrix components to the point of uselessness in FTC, and that it effectively turns Logomotion into a coin flip (if heads, your team's minibot doesn't combust halfway up the pole and cost you the event!)

George Nishimura

05-03-2011, 20:15

I'd be surprised they did change that, even if it was to a 20-15-10-5 scale. That fundamentally changes the game and you would be unfairly penalizing the teams that focused on the minibot.

Teams made decisions on strategy based on the game described. While we didn't focus all our attention on the minibot, there are teams that did and would be significantly handicapped if point values changed.

Andy A.

05-03-2011, 20:17

A couple of things I've noticed:

Lane incursion penalties are very common, and difficult to avoid. Nobody was immune, it seemed. They don't necessarily decide a match, but they can and have.

Minibots are huge. I only saw a few matches where a match was won on strength of tubes vs a minibot.

There were way more minibots present then there were reliable ways to deploy them. Deployment was, far and away, the missing element for a lot of teams. Till finals there were very few real races decided by minibot speed, but plenty decided by sticky or otherwise slow deployment. Reliability is paramount, with speed a distant second.

thefro526

05-03-2011, 20:22

But that's what FIRST wants, remember? They made the minibot race dramatically huge so that we'd invest in the FTC kit, hopefully competing in the 2011-2012 FTC game.

It's too bad the most competitive minibots involve modifying Tetrix components to the point of uselessness in FTC, and that it effectively turns Logomotion into a coin flip (if heads, your team's minibot doesn't combust halfway up the pole and cost you the event!)

The funny thing is that all of the "super fast" minibots that I've seen use 4 tetrix parts at most - Motors, batteries, and the on/off switch.

I understand that devaluing the minibot would hurt some teams that focused on that, but what about the teams that focused on putting up tubes? You're telling me that all of the work that my team has done to score 5 game pieces should be erased by one robot that didn't score any tubes and put up a minibot? Something's not right there.

JaneYoung

05-03-2011, 20:23

There just may be a reason for forehead protectors this year. After watching Blair get bopped by a tube, that was the first thing that popped into my head. :)

Jane

pfreivald

05-03-2011, 20:32

Minibots are more important than tubes.

I disagree, vehemently. At FLR, this simply was not true.

If you don't have a minibot, go make one. If you don't have a deployment system, go make one of those too. Seriously.

...and this I agree with 100%.

Even though the game is called "Logomotion" in most Qualification matches I played in and saw, Tubes could not, and did not offset the points scored by a single minibot.

While this was mostly true, if one wants to be a truly competitive, top-tier team, it simply wasn't the case. FLR had many matches that were 60+ points to not very many points, with most of those points coming from tube scoring.

Chris is me

05-03-2011, 20:34

While this was mostly true, if one wants to be a truly competitive, top-tier team, it simply wasn't the case. FLR had many matches that were 60+ points to not very many points, with most of those points coming from tube scoring.

And how many teams did you see an alliance win the minibot race and lose the match?

wilsonmw04

05-03-2011, 20:37

I understand that devaluing the minibot would hurt some teams that focused on that, but what about the teams that focused on putting up tubes? You're telling me that all of the work that my team has done to score 5 game pieces should be erased by one robot that didn't score any tubes and put up a minibot? Something's not right there.

So a lack of, or incorrect, analysis of the game requires a change in the game to make it more advantageous to your lack of, or incorrect, analysis of the game? Interesting request.

XaulZan11

05-03-2011, 20:37

Chris is me

05-03-2011, 20:41

So a lack of, or incorrect, analysis of the game requires a change in the game to make it more advantageous to your lack of, or incorrect, analysis of the game? Interesting request.

If it was a 30 point bonus for minibots, I would agree. But the "race" nature inserts so much entropy into the match results that the winner of the match is rarely decided on by factors you could have actually designed for.

LH Machinist

05-03-2011, 20:42

pfreivald

05-03-2011, 20:43

And how many teams did you see an alliance win the minibot race and lose the match?

Us. Over and over again.

We were the most consistent minibot at the regional, with claw gremlins that kept us out of the tube-scoring quite a bit. We lost most of our games in spite of winning every minibot race we entered.

(...and I will maintain to my dying day that our last semifinal match, we did not deploy our minibot early... It wouldn't have made a difference (beyond pride) anyway, but dang it, the refs got that call dead wrong! Video will vindicate us, I do declare! :D )

I saw quite a few matches where the alliance that won the minibot race also won the match, but by a greater margin than the minibot points... There weren't that many where a successful minibot actually made a win/loss difference (though some of them were critical, of course).

StevenB

05-03-2011, 20:47

Make sure your minibot stays on your hostbot. I'll say it again: if you care about getting the minibot bonus, and if you value the work you put into building it, then make good and sure it doesn't fall off and get run over by a hostbot. It feels like watching your pet turtle try to cross the freeway.

5/6 #1 seeds won the regional.
1/6 #2 seeds won the regional.
It appears the ranking system is doing its job.

A minor correction - the winning alliance in NH was 175/1519/176, which was the third seeded alliance.

commodoredl

05-03-2011, 21:25

tim-tim

05-03-2011, 21:57

Did any of the other regionals have issues with their fields detecting minibots? At FLR, almost every minibot to reach the top was undetected by the touch sensor. We had to have referees keep track of which minibots were scoring, and that wasn't good when things got close at some points.

Based on webcasts I watched, I think all Regionals had issues with minibot detection issues. All had refs holding up fingers and jumping/throwing arms up to indicate when hit.

rcmolloy

05-03-2011, 22:05

Well everyone has said it a million times but minibots are extremely important. Ours carried us to the finals but our manipulation wasn't key.

Make sure that your manipulation can pick up tubes without any error from the floor. Aside from that, figure out how to have a fast minibot. We are actually trying to make ours faster which is almost impossible

Tubes + Minibot = Elim Wins and Champions

smistthegreat

05-03-2011, 22:09

Just an observation from going to FLR today: I was very surprised by the amount of teams throwing tubes. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but for some of the matches, especially with powerhouses 217 and 2056, it seemed like the human players throwing tubes were doing nothing but feeding their opponents. If you throw a tube into the middle, you're basically giving it to the team with the best manipulator.

nuggetsyl

05-03-2011, 22:10

You must have a working mini bot to win.

BGiraud

05-03-2011, 22:25

You must have a working mini bot to win.

One extra is a must. They do break.

galewind

05-03-2011, 22:37

Line tape problems

I saw a team identify tape problems before a qualification match, it looked scuffed or dirty from the stands. The field crew made a quick repair that the team appeared not to like and had to leave the field under protest. During autonomous their robot deployed the uber tube way prematurely.

Was the team correct or was it a field issue. I tend to believe the team because after the match, the field crew carefully repaired the tape.

If you were talking about the NJ regional, yes this occured near the end of the qualification matches to team 1647. They protested, one of the refs moved their hands over the tape to see it was still down, then the teammate was sent back after protesting it because there were tire tread smudges on the line. The smudges did, in fact, cause the tube to deploy prematurely. After the match, the team spoke to the referees, and since the lack of ubertube did not change the result of the match, they opted not to replay it.

So teams that use the line trackers -- make sure your line is good, and speak with the referees before your match, and give them the time they need to fix the problem.

HarveyAce

05-03-2011, 22:48

You must have a working mini bot to win.

I disagree. i saw plenty of matches in both FLR and Alamo where the winner of the minibot race lost the match. Correction: you must have a consistent manipulator and minibot DEPLOYMENT to win. Normally if the match finished with the winning team winning the bonus, it didn't matter because they would have won anyway, even if their opponents had won the race. The teams that could get into a rhythm when scoring tubes were the ones that won because they were simply able to starve their opponents of points. and a lot of them didn't have the greatest handling manipulators, they were just consistent and well practiced with using them. The deployment system is definitely more key than the minibot, because if a fast sub-two-second minibot can't be deployed, then the slower 5 second minibot wins every time if it is deployed.

TUBE + MINIBOT DEPLOYMENT = WON MATCH

Lil' Lavery

05-03-2011, 22:52

It seems that minibots are like ramps were early in '07. It was extremely hard to win a match against a double ramp if you had no ramps. But, once both alliances had ramps, matchs were decided by tubes. As more and more teams get consistent minibots, tube scoring will become more important.

This is correct, to an extent.

Ramps in 2007 were independent of the other alliance. You could score your 60 points regardless of any bonus points the other alliance scored. Minibot races live up to their name, they're races. The winning minibot is not only scoring points for their alliance, they're denying potential points to the opponent.

Even when both alliances have multiple, quick, consistent minibots, the race will still have the potential to win a match over tube placement. Especially if one alliance can manage to grab first and second place, which results in a whopping 25 additional points over getting 3rd and 4th.

The potential exists for minibot races to almost be a matter of luck when both alliances have lightning fast minibots and deployment systems. Whoever happens to execute the best (or have the most fortunate series of events) in each particular match could win, almost regardless of what happened in the 2:05 of that match leading up to that point. Any number of small mistakes or freak chances could result in an extra second or two added to the climb time or a dropped minibot, which could very easily result in a lost match.

If you played a 100 matches in a series between teams with similar minibots, sure the alliance with better tube scorers would likely win. But in a series of 3 matches, I can't say that's always going to be the case.

Did any of the other regionals have issues with their fields detecting minibots? At FLR, almost every minibot to reach the top was undetected by the touch sensor. We had to have referees keep track of which minibots were scoring, and that wasn't good when things got close at some points.

Definitely an issue in NJ as well. Sometimes a strong blow the pole or tower base would accidentally set off the sensor, as well. This issue adds another element of "chance" and potential for human error into the minibot race. Hopefully they can get it resolves and/or incorporate a more fool-proof method of seeing who won minibot races.

Justin Montois

05-03-2011, 22:56

..... and that it effectively turns Logomotion into a coin flip (if heads, your team's minibot doesn't combust halfway up the pole and cost you the event!)

:(

galewind

05-03-2011, 23:12

1. Everyone should put 7.5A fuses in their minibot batteries if they don't want their motors to burn out.

2. Minibots change the game more than I believe they should. Under many qualification matches, if you won the race, you won the match. This also occured in MANY of the elimination matches.

3. That said, if you are going to a week 2 regional and don't have a minibot built yet, you have 5 more days to do so. USE THEM WISELY. Find out successful systems and BUILD ONE. I kid you not, it is the most important thing for you to do as an FRC team to make sure you have a working, consistent minibot. Minibot speed is great, and all, and it may make the difference in later weeks at the higher end of the competition, but many teams with "Tricked out" minibots had issues.

Brian Ha

06-03-2011, 00:20

About the minibot stuff, KEEP THEM SECURE!!! In one of the first matches, a minibot fell off and then it got bashed to death really, so watch out. Also another thing, watch your manipulator, roller or claw, be able to pull it up quick, i saw team 27 rush, get their one of their side aligners for tubes get decimated and bent, it looked bad but i think they fixed it. So all's good, but watch it and teams will not be afraid to hit it. Also a team with a solid fast strong def bot with a minibot without a arm is very effective. Team 3536 yea a rookie got 2nd seed because their minibot was very consistent, maybe slow but it got their and they did very well. Also the good teams will have dead programming for autonomous, or watever you call it, thats how its done, the lines are iffy and robots shake a lot when they get close to the poles when going fast so cameras get messed up. Do what works and make it work. Another thing teams with a beast of a hp lik us will not pick feeders, they will have no need for you so you might want to change your robot a little because we had a feeder bot at kettering 314 big mo basically they went down out scouting choice for the fact that they are a feeder and we didnt need them. AUTONOMOUS IS A DEFINITE NEED!!! Minibots will play less and less of a role when teams have a auto robot and a robot that has a good hanging arm. Also YOU DONT HAFTA SCORE ON THE TOP MIDDLE PEG IN AUTO, ITS THE SAME AMOUNT OF POINTS ON ANY OTHER PEG AND THE OTHERS ARE LOWER!!! SO DO THAT!! instead. Also be able to score in the middle of the two racks because most teams don't have that option and its not that hard its just turning how high you raise the arm a little and just lining it up from a different spot. It can be done. And minibot isnt required by me, but if your a rookie team, do that instead of an arm, follow in 3536 footsteps, they got seed 2 just because of a slow but consistent minibot and a very good defensive robot. Hands off to their driver who definately has gotten the hang of it. Also logos logos logos, they are key but if you have no time to score a logo just got top rack even if its 3 triangles because no matter what its not a big deal. Anyways thats all ill say for now until week 3. Thanks for reading and a shout out to the electro eagles, loved meeting you guys months ago, and love seeing you guys kick some butt out there.

XXShadowXX

06-03-2011, 00:31

Two words:

Minibot, Autonomous.

These two things seem to make or break a winning alliance. Doing both reliably seems to be the winning formula. Yes this may seem obvious playing the game is the secret to playing the game but in past games end game and autonomous sometimes seem to be very undervalued (in my own opinion). And now they seem more important then ever.

waialua359

06-03-2011, 01:26

I disagree. i saw plenty of matches in both FLR and Alamo where the winner of the minibot race lost the match. Correction: you must have a consistent manipulator and minibot DEPLOYMENT to win. Normally if the match finished with the winning team winning the bonus, it didn't matter because they would have won anyway, even if their opponents had won the race. The teams that could get into a rhythm when scoring tubes were the ones that won because they were simply able to starve their opponents of points. and a lot of them didn't have the greatest handling manipulators, they were just consistent and well practiced with using them. The deployment system is definitely more key than the minibot, because if a fast sub-two-second minibot can't be deployed, then the slower 5 second minibot wins every time if it is deployed.

TUBE + MINIBOT DEPLOYMENT = WON MATCH
how is it what Sean said, is incorrect? I believe he is implying working as able to score. Part of your argument is agreeing with him.
2 working minibots vs an alliance with none, I'll take that every time.

pfreivald

06-03-2011, 09:44

Another lesson: Those of you with bumper skirts, make sure they are very well made. The FTA has been instructed to disable robots that have any of the wrong color showing, or any suspicion that the skirt extends outside the bumper zone in either direction -- without warning to the team so effected.

I have this on very good authority, what with our team having a bumper skirt that almost got us red carded from every red match we played! :eek:

kmusa

06-03-2011, 09:44

Make sure your minibot stays on your hostbot. I'll say it again: if you care about getting the minibot bonus, and if you value the work you put into building it, then make good and sure it doesn't fall off and get run over by a hostbot. It feels like watching your pet turtle try to cross the freeway.

Very, very true.

For whatever reason (gremlins?), ours was released early in tele-op. Watching it sit on the field, with all of the robots racing about, was definitely high-stress.

It would have made a captivating youtube video had it raced across the field, ran into something else and then released whatever magic smoke it had left. Luckily, we were relieved to find only minimal damage after the match.

--Karlis

Bjenks548

06-03-2011, 10:04

At least at kettering, matches were not won only based on minibots or tubes. The winning alliance had 2 robots constantly scoring and the same 2 robots had great minibots. The last team member was stealing tubes and bringing them to the home zone. Furthermore, 33s double ubertube autonomous worked very well and gave them 3 ubertubes in many elimination matches. If this shows things to come it will take 3 uber tubes, 3 logos, and 2 minibots to win at higher levels.

MagiChau

06-03-2011, 10:20

I would say make sure your minibot deployment system is very reliable and sturdy. At Traverse City some hard defense made robots' deployment mechanisms broken. No point of having a good minibot if during competition you cannot launch it because you did not count on a robot hitting you as you line up for the end-game, a fatal vulnerability point for some deployment systems.

Mike Norton

06-03-2011, 10:39

Some of these mini bots should not have scored. Just because they hit the top does not mean they win. The rules state it should be able to push the plate not just hit it. Some of these fast little mini bots did not have enough power to push the plate up. That is a design flaw; they should not have gotten the points for it.

When a bigger mini bot hit the top the lights did go off.

Mike Norton

06-03-2011, 10:43

The best thing they had at the regionals is the fast pass. Make sure you get your robot inspected quickly. if you do then you can get in a lot of practice time.

MagiChau

06-03-2011, 10:47

ATannahill

06-03-2011, 10:47

Mike, there is a known problem with the towers, FIRST sent put instructions on Friday on how to fix it, the next day we were told that it doesn't work. Minibots not triggering the sensor was a constant problem across events this week.

Also, please don't make two different posts in a thread within five minutes of each other.

galewind

06-03-2011, 10:48

mike, we hit the top with a tremendous amount of force, and sometimes the pole didn't register due to the pole itself not being established correctly (I believe two poles at NJ hardly ever went off). I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I disagree. I don't think we want to encourage too much force at the top of the pole to damage the sensors or the mini-bots.

IndySam

06-03-2011, 10:52

wilsonmw04

06-03-2011, 11:04

OK physics folks answers me a question :)

Isn't it a matter of enough force, couldn't a light but very fast minibot deliver as much energy as a slow heavy one?

Of course a slow minibot would have more contact time but that wasn't part of the challenge was it?

1st Year physics: Impulse/Momentum

Ft=mv

so yes, a large and a small minibot can apply the same force to the plate

293spike

06-03-2011, 11:10

Although minibus nit triggering towers were an issue, I believe that it us also very important that FIRST specifically defines what is and what is not "playing the game". During elims our alliance received a red card that really could have gone to either alliance depending on the definition (which has not yet been established) of "playing the game". This red card cost us both the match and the tournament and although fairly accessed, we could have avoid a prolonged discussion over the specifics of the card which caused a 20-30 minute delay and was overall and unneccessary hinderance.

Paul Copioli

06-03-2011, 11:18

At FLR on practice day the tower finish lights would trigger if you hit the tower hard enough with your robot. They basically all but disabled the tower lights for all poles at FLR.

BTW, our small but light minibot definitely crushes the top plate. Impulse - momentum (or work energy theory, too) shows that it is momentum, not simply mass, that dictates the contact energy. Believe me, if a minibot that is going up in less than 1.5 seconds it will hurt you if it contacted you. 4 (or whatever the small number is) Newtons of force does not hurt you. The claim about small, light minibots in the earlier post is based on no physics that I use.

Paul

Ether

06-03-2011, 11:29

Mike, ... please don't make two different posts in a thread within five minutes of each other.

His two posts were both relevant to the thread topic but addressed separate issues. There's no harm in what he did.

Andrew Lawrence

06-03-2011, 11:44

Something I observed from week one:
A good defense can ruin an ENTIRE team, if played correctly.

MagiChau

06-03-2011, 12:02

Something I observed from week one:
A good defense can ruin an ENTIRE team, if played correctly.

Especially if you load the team's zone full of tubes they do not want. e.g. If they have two top row squares already load the area with a bunch of squares as obstacles. If they get past the defending robot after it has already delayed them, now they have to deal with tubes in their way that they do not want.

ks_mumupsi

06-03-2011, 12:46

I read through this whole post and theres quiet a few differences between the different regionals from week 1. There is one thing I did not notice in the entire post though.

There are very few autonomous with the Y-code, quiet a few straight line autonomous modes.

I will summarize NJ briefly here.... There were about 7-8 consistent minibots, there were about 2 or 3 really fast minibots. I think at NJ a lot of teams did loose the focus on the minibot and only focused on the main bot.

We had a working minibot, but it was not fast and nor was our deployment system designed till 3 days before NJ regional. The final minibot and deployment was designed within the week prior to the regional. The design for the minibot came from ideas and videos posted here on Chiefdelphi (credit goes to team 118*)

At NJ, if you had an effective minibot, it was game over, your alliance was probably going to win most qualification matches. (save some odd penalties)

Other than that, one of the biggest things I noticed with flooding the field with tubes, this is fine for qualification matches, however in eliminations the name of the game is to starve your opponents of tubes, especially if your opponents have a good tube scoring mechanism..

By around week 3 or so, most teams will have a minibot, by around week 4-5 most teams will have a consistent deployment and minibot. At this point I think the tube scoring will become extremely important.

Also if you could have an alliance with 2 scorers and one (defensive/scorer), along with 2 minibots, that was an effective strategy for us.

I am looking forward to seeing how this season progresses in terms of strategy.

J@GMFlint

06-03-2011, 12:47

YES defense changes again in the eliminations, and can be played in a big way against a high-powered alliance. The first Final's match our alliance was way off-balance, everyone was trying too hard trying to out score them on tubes, we scored in the wrong order, ran into each other etc. causing major confusion even on my part. Mean time, our human players were tossing tubes to the opposition and making it easy for them to score. Someone posted earlier about Human Player discipline- absolutely! Don't get too excited & throw the game away because you want to do something!

Thanks to some great scouting/strategic advice from our friends 2337, in the Kettering Finals we switched to a stronger defensive posture in our 2nd match and had our alliance been able to shut 33's mini-bot down & deployed our own (we only had 1 on our alliance, 494's) we might have went to a 3rd match. It was certainly much better played than going point-point, even if we took out the confusion factor.

I have to agree with the earlier post, but will gear it more toward an alliance. Going forward, for an alliance to be highly competitive, scoring 2 or 3 ubertubes in auton, (can anyone score from the middle in auton, aside from 33, 148 doing a double... I see an opportunity if done correctly) and having at least 2 mini-bots for flexibility will be "must-haves". Execution on placing tubes is a given, do right, do it efficiently.

As for the "best gripper", active rollers are good, but so are claws (if your design ensures you get a good bite every time- we did not & it made it tougher especially when everyone gets excited during elims)

Load station... what load station? Never used it once, though we designed our arm to be able to use it, other-wise we would have used a 4-bar variation and made life a little easier. We didn't get our arm working effectively until late Saturday & it as well as the controls still have room for improvement.

Good luck to everyone competing in week #2! :)

2611.Shooter

06-03-2011, 12:57

Have a STABLE robot arm- at traverse city, I saw a lot of teams that had a robot tall enough to place on the top rack, but whose arms would flex and bend up to 8 inches back and forth, making it much harder for them to place. A lower center of gravity and a light manipulator with a rigid arm helped enormously.

Also, a team that can score 6 tubes on the middle rack will beat out one who only scores 4 on the top rack, even though the top is considered to be a necessity for many teams.

And, of course, a fast and reliable minibot will get you at least to the top 8 seeds. I think that a t traverse city, 6 or 7 of the top eight teams had a minibot deploy at least every other match.

jcbc

06-03-2011, 13:43

If you are using a non-Classmate PC for your driver station, make sure you use a Windows login with the name Driver. The uppercase D matters.

pfreivald

06-03-2011, 15:36

There are very few autonomous with the Y-code, quiet a few straight line autonomous modes.

For us, this was a matter of sensor calibration. In order to follow the lines under FLR lighting conditions, we had to turn the gain on the line finders all the way up -- but because the center of the Y is also the center of the field, and the black tape they use to tape the carpet together is somewhat reflective, the sensors would then read the black tape *after* the Y, and thus keep on driving straight.

We verified this by putting our sensors right over the black tape during the practice day -- sure enough, it was triggering them!

Our autonomous worked fine on the practice field (which did not have the black tape), and fine at home, but would not work on the field itself.

Zuelu562

06-03-2011, 16:04

Minibot + Deployment: Most know the importance of minibots and deployment, here's what i've got.

If you've got a guide system that touches your minibot, you're going to have to cut it down so your minibot doesn't lose you a match. We got called on it during our fourth match.

Also, make sure you don't burn up your minibot (Last match on Friday, BAE/GSR *COUGH*).

Deployment is crucial. Make sure the feeders guide you in unless you have a system in place to get you on 100% of the time.

Don't deploy at the Flintstone's feet sound (unless they change it, make sure to ask). That is the 5 second warning until the race starts. When the base of the tower changes colors back to the alliance color, go.

Manipulators: If you have something that can pick up off the ground, abuse it. A LOT of teams will be throwing tubes. If you don't, arrange with your alliance partners to make sure they save a few tubes for you, if they decide to use their human players as feeders.

Don't waste time trying to score high if you're having issues or consistently missing, move down a peg, and get on with it. There is 0 time to waste, especially if you are under tube pressure and/or deploying.

Work with your alliance to make logos. Don't screw up logos by putting them on so it looks like the actual logo TO YOU (If you can't bear to think of the FIRST logo backwards :rolleyes: then make something up in Paint. You're going to need it.).

Feeders and Defense are not crucial. BAE/GSR finals was 3 offensive bots vs. 3 offensive bots. They can skew results in quals, especially if your robot can effectively play D, but are not specifically crucial in finals.

Feeders/Analysts: Make sure your human player is almost at the level of coach knowledge and awareness-wise, especially if they are pigeonholed into analyst all weekend. Most analysts at BAE/GSR became a second coach to their team. Help out your alliance.

If you're aiming at a strategy to shut teams down, throw tubes strategically and AIM!!!! You have no idea how many teams threw tubes willy-nilly. If you've got the space, have your human player practice with all three tubes, and get good at aiming and distance. Make sure they know to be a sniper, but make sure that they can turn it to turbo if you need to start shutting down a section of field.

Strategic points to flood with tubes: opposing feeder lanes, towers, safe zone. Do it only if 2/3 teams on that alliance cannot pick up off the floor, and you can.

Swampdude

06-03-2011, 16:19

If you've got a guide system that touches your minibot, you're going to have to cut it down so your minibot doesn't lose you a match. We got called on it during our fourth match.

Can you explain your guide system, and the offended rule explanation?

BJC

06-03-2011, 16:28

On the practice field while testing our minibot when it hit the top the pole would actually "jump" up a little from its slot. We, without a doubt, had enough force to trigger the top. Despite this, over half the time our minibot hit the top of the tower on the field towers nothing was triggered. I hope this problem is fixed for week two regionals/districts.

GaryVoshol

06-03-2011, 16:41

The problem with the tower triggers is two-fold:

1 - False positives: The tower will sometimes trigger because of a hard hit by a hostbot on the pole or base, before the minibot even begins to move.

2 - False negatives: The tower will not trigger even when soundly smacked by the minibot.

At Kettering, the false negatives were associated with the faster minibots. It was noted that in order to eliminate the false positives, the sensitivity was decreased, and it was surmised that the fastest minibots did not provide enough contact time to trigger the tower. It was not a matter of force, but of time of contact.

Hopefully this can be addressed.

Coach Norm

06-03-2011, 20:55

We competed at Alamo Regional this past weekend.

We had a great time and were honored to be in the quarterfinals against 418, 16 and Rookies 3841. We were picked as the first choice for 3847 (rookies) at number 8. They were completely taken off guard when they moved into position to be an alliance captain. They then chose Cyberwolves, 647 as our alliance second alliance partner. 3847 had lost their tube manipulator early on Friday. Both of these robots showed Field communications before our second match started but lost communications right after the match started. 3847 regained it and worked extremely hard at pushing tubes in our lane at the Red alliance end. We chose not to throw any tubes into the field as an alliance to try and limit their opportunities to stray tubes. Our plan was to push tubes into our lane as there were entered with two robots and have one robot score tubes at the other end. 148 put up two ubertubes in Auto while 16 attempted but just missed. In both matches, 148 and 16 deployed their minibot resulting in 50 points for them. We were crushed both matches by these this powerhouse alliance of hall of famers, but by limiting the number of tubes on the field, the minibots were 50 points of each match.

Minibots proved to be the difference the later in the tournament it went. Rounds with four successful minibots did occur in the elimination matches a few times.

Many teams had minibots that would climb the pole but deployment proved to be very difficult. 118 has a very impressive minibot that is extremely fast, (if you have not seen it, check out Magic's minibot youtube) but they had difficulty getting it deployed during the matches. 118's early match loss was to an alliance(2158, utilizing a strategy of pushing tubes into the opposing teams lane to starve them from scoring. The opposing alliance also deployed a minibot I believe. The final match score was 30 - 24.

Alamo had 17 rookie teams in attendance. Many of the teams did not understand all the rules, so it was very important to explain the some of the basic rules before the match.

Key points I noticed:
1. You need the Driver Station update (bring it on a USB for others)
2. You need the correct CRio update (bring it on a USB for others)
3. Picking up off the floor is huge importance.
4. Do not just liter the field with tubes if you an underpowered by a strong offensive alliance opponent.
5. GET A MINIBOT that you can DEPLOY.
6. DEPLOYMENT IS KEY. Slow and steady will put you in place for high seeding or selection in the next week tournaments most likely. As the season progresses, the minibot times will improve as well as the consistency of deployment. This will most likely take a larger roll after week 2.
7. Defense can be played by limiting the number of tubes as well as working to limit your opponent alliances' from scoring logos by strategically removing the tubes they need to complete logos. Push them into your lane where they cannot be retrieved without incurring a penalty.
8. If you are opposing a stronger alliance, aggressive driving is a must to make it more difficult for teams to pick up tubes. Robot to robot contact in the bumper zone makes it more difficult for teams to pick up tubes in optimum position for deliver to the pegs.
9. Stay away from the opposing teams tower in the last ten seconds. Red card
10. Many teams received a red card for a possessed tube hitting an opposing teams tower. (G23)
11. Pushing/Herding of tubes resulted in penalties as well.
12. If you have a robot who cannot hang tubes, push tubes forward to your alliance zone but not much closer than the towers since it will cause difficulty to maneuver to pick up tubes.
13. It seemed some aliances who had two/three teams attempting to score in auton could have difficulty if two robots ran into the driver station wall at the same time. The driver station walls would shake and rattle. I believe this might have caused some problems with lining up with cameras via imaging and/or with range finding of some sort.

LOGOmotion is a fun game for not the teams but the fans. The minibots are a huge fan favorite at the end game.

MagiChau

06-03-2011, 21:36

We competed at Alamo Regional this past weekend.

We had a great time and were honored to be in the quarterfinals against 418, 16 and Rookies 3841. ....
Minibots proved to be the difference the later in the tournament it went. Rounds with four successful minibots did occur in the elimination matches a few times.

Many teams had minibots that would climb the pole but deployment proved to be very difficult. 118 has a very impressive minibot that is extremely fast, (if you have not seen it, check out Magic's minibot youtube) but they had difficulty getting it deployed during the matches. ....

Alamo had 17 rookie teams in attendance. Many of the teams did not understand all the rules, so it was very important to explain the some of the basic rules before the match.

Key points I noticed:
....
3. Picking up off the floor is huge importance.
....
12. If you have a robot who cannot hang tubes, push tubes forward to your alliance zone but not much closer than the towers since it will cause difficulty to maneuver to pick up tubes.
13. It seemed some aliances who had two/three teams attempting to score in auton could have difficulty if two robots ran into the driver station wall at the same time. The driver station walls would shake and rattle. I believe this might have caused some problems with lining up with cameras via imaging and/or with range finding of some sort.

LOGOmotion is a fun game for not the teams but the fans. The minibots are a huge fan favorite at the end game.
3. I agree after seeing all those tubes on the ground at Traverse City.
12. If you cannot hang I would prefer defense unless your alliance is a scoring machine.
13. Encoders work fine for driving the robot in autonomous. I find it the simplest solution. I think it was the Killer Bees that had an autonomous that hung 2 uber-tubes with only encoders.

apalrd

06-03-2011, 22:08

I think it was the Killer Bees that had an autonomous that hung 2 uber-tubes with only encoders.

Two encoders and a gyro.

(that does not include sensors in the elevator).

Cynette

07-03-2011, 16:37

... 3. Make sure the firmware on your driver's station is the latest version. The inspectors were sloppy at FLR, and lots of teams had the wrong version. The FTA will disable your robot for the match if this is the case, and this will be a sad thing for you!

A rebuttal is in order... The inspectors were not sloppy. They were given information to use on Thursday for inspections that proved to not be valid on Friday. They were fastidious in writing down the version each team used on the inspection forms and were able to identify which teams had which versions.

pfreivald

07-03-2011, 16:57

A rebuttal is in order... The inspectors were not sloppy. They were given information to use on Thursday for inspections that proved to not be valid on Friday. They were fastidious in writing down the version each team used on the inspection forms and were able to identify which teams had which versions.

Fair enough. I was told that the inspectors were sloppy by Rob (the lead inspector), so I thought that was a reasonable statement.

It wasn't meant as an accusation -- Thursday was difficult for everyone!

Kims Robot

07-03-2011, 18:11

Average Qualification Scores were a LOT lower than most predicted (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88384). While there were some great matches, there were plenty of penalties, minibots falling off robots, and robots that just couldn't hang that tube...

They were higher than my original prediction (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=997252#post997252), but not by a lot!

FLR: 33.19
BAE: 30.36
NJ: 26.30
ALAMO: 18.13

Overall Average: 26.52
Red Alliance Ave: 25.59
Blue Alliance Ave: 27.46
Winning Score Ave: 40.63
Losing Score Ave: 12.42

My observations:
1. Picking up the Floor was VERY valuable, essential for Eliminations teams.
2. Minibots were overpowered in Qualifications, as 75% of teams struggled to put up more than 1 or 2 tubes, minibots became very valuable. In Elims it was a bit more balanced. This may even out as teams get more practice.
3. Reliable auto mode will be very helpful.
4. More teams went for top rack scoring than I expected by the math of the point values (and many struggled).
5. Defense was rarely played effectively, it will hopefully get better as the weeks go on.
6. Line incursion penalties were flying EVERYWHERE. I really wish the rule was only active when a team was in the lane...

Justin Montois

07-03-2011, 18:31

...
6. Line incursion penalties were flying EVERYWHERE. I really wish the rule was only active when a team was in the lane...

That would be a great rule change.

MagiChau

07-03-2011, 18:33

That would be a great rule change.

I think changing the rule to only be in effect when another robot is in the lane then will allow it to be abused easily. This is week one, I believe in Week 2+ drive-teams will have learned from Week 1 to avoid enroachment of the zones if they can help it.

pfreivald

07-03-2011, 18:54

There were a lot of lane-incursion penalties, but there were a lot of teams that didn't incur any, either.

Schnabel

07-03-2011, 19:09

Call me crazy, but it seams that human players have amazing aim this year. I would say that at least half of the tubes thrown hit the little pole in the middle of the 27ft wide field. :yikes:

MathFreak

07-03-2011, 19:29

I didn't go to see the matches, I watched them from youtube but what I noticed was that most of robots couldn't get to the tower during the minibot race because of the other robots.

I think defending the opposite alliance's towers is a great idea because they won't get high points for it.

Minibots are more important than tubes. If you don't have a minibot, go make one. If you don't have a deployment system, go make one of those too. Seriously.

Even though the game is called "Logomotion" in most Qualification matches I played in and saw, Tubes could not, and did not offset the points scored by a single minibot.

The tubes aren't a constant size. Make sure your gripper can grab anything between 6" and 9".

(Seriously though, I really hope that Team update 17 comes out and devalues the minibot race by at least 1/3rd. 30 points is way too much for first place, especially considering that you need to make two complete logos on the top row to offset ONE minibot going up the pole and getting first place. Why call the game Logomotion if it's not about making the FIRST logo? If we wanted to play with mini robots then we'd go play in FTC or VRC.)

Koko Ed

07-03-2011, 19:35

Call me crazy, but it seams that human players have amazing aim this year. I would say that at least half of the tubes thrown hit the little pole in the middle of the 27ft wide field. :yikes:

I saw human players chucking alot of tubes that went flying towards the scorers table.
Teams should be discouraged from just throwing tubes wildly that could take out the scoring equipment. A yellow card might do the trick.

MathFreak

07-03-2011, 19:37

And how many teams did you see an alliance win the minibot race and lose the match?

Even if the team win the race and lose the match, it'S not a bad thing because the team will win if they got two other strong robots that can get a lot of points on the tube.

My mentor said the minibot is the biggest not only because it can get high points but also because the other strong teams will want to get your team in their alliance because of your minibot.

MagiChau

07-03-2011, 19:37

I saw human players chucking alot of tubes that went flying towards the scorers table.
Teams should be discouraged from just throwing tubes wildly that could take out the scoring equipment. A yellow card might do the trick.

There is the rule <G36> <G36> GAME PIECES may not be intentionally placed out of bounds.
Violation: PENALTY and YELLOW CARD , though I am not sure if throwing wildly constitutes on purpose out of bounds.

Koko Ed

07-03-2011, 19:40

There is the rule <G36> , though I am not sure if throwing wildly constitutes on purpose out of bounds.

They weren't doing it on purpose (I saw one human player's toss goo straight up to the ceiling of the Gordon Fieldhouse and end up behind the driver's station) but when team's robots get stuck and they keep running the robot til they burn a hole in the carpet they get smacked upside the head with a card for doing it and I think it should apply to this action as well.

MathFreak

07-03-2011, 19:43

that's right, and the feeding is safer than throwing.

Just an observation from going to FLR today: I was very surprised by the amount of teams throwing tubes. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but for some of the matches, especially with powerhouses 217 and 2056, it seemed like the human players throwing tubes were doing nothing but feeding their opponents. If you throw a tube into the middle, you're basically giving it to the team with the best manipulator.

Koko Ed

07-03-2011, 19:51

that's right, and the feeding is safer than throwing.

I mentioned this previously: if you are going against opponents who are better at retrieving tubes off the floor than you are then don't toss the tubes out there and make it easy for them.
That's why scouting is important. You need to know the capabilities of your opponents and your alliance partners so you know how to use your tubes properly so you don't get thumped.

MathFreak

07-03-2011, 19:51

Minibot is big, but you don't have to deploy 2 minibot. If 1 minibot is faster than the others, you have to deploy the fastest minibot and the other robots should go defending.

Autonomous is not that big but you should get points, it doesn't matter if the ubertube is in the lowest low, you can still get points.

Two words:

Minibot, Autonomous.

These two things seem to make or break a winning alliance. Doing both reliably seems to be the winning formula. Yes this may seem obvious playing the game is the secret to playing the game but in past games end game and autonomous sometimes seem to be very undervalued (in my own opinion). And now they seem more important then ever.

MagiChau

07-03-2011, 19:57

Autonomous is not that big but you should get points, it doesn't matter if the ubertube is in the lowest low, you can still get points.

I would say autonomous is pretty big. Top row its worth 6 points, middle 4, bottem 2 without the bonus for logo pieces during teleop. If your alliance can get 3 uber tubes up that is 18 points automatically. 9 additional points for scoring over them. Its almost the equivalent of winning the minibot race during a time period where the other alliance cannot stop you.

MathFreak

07-03-2011, 19:59

Something I observed from week one:
A good defense can ruin an ENTIRE team, if played correctly.

Defending is a good point and the most important thing is you have to defend the towers during the minibot race.

MathFreak

07-03-2011, 20:02

I would say autonomous is pretty big. Top row its worth 6 points, middle 4, bottem 2 without the bonus for logo pieces during teleop. If your alliance can get 3 uber tubes up that is 18 points automatically. 9 additional points for scoring over them. Its almost the equivalent of winning the minibot race during a time period where the other alliance cannot stop you.

most of teams think that during the autonomous the lowest row is not that high so they stay there for 15 seconds doing nothing.

My mentor told me that if you can't get to the top row, you shouldn't move during the autonomous (this is not what I'm thinking).

MathFreak

07-03-2011, 20:07

So don't we get points for towers not triggering?

The problem with the tower triggers is two-fold:

1 - False positives: The tower will sometimes trigger because of a hard hit by a hostbot on the pole or base, before the minibot even begins to move.

2 - False negatives: The tower will not trigger even when soundly smacked by the minibot.

At Kettering, the false negatives were associated with the faster minibots. It was noted that in order to eliminate the false positives, the sensitivity was decreased, and it was surmised that the fastest minibots did not provide enough contact time to trigger the tower. It was not a matter of force, but of time of contact.

Hopefully this can be addressed.

wilsonmw04

07-03-2011, 20:13

most of teams think that during the autonomous the lowest row is not that high so they stay there for 15 seconds doing nothing.

My mentor told me that if you can't get to the top row, you shouldn't move during the autonomous (this is not what I'm thinking).

To do nothing means leaving another tube to litter the field and possibly get in your way. I'd rather spend those 15 seconds earning two points than doing nothing. Maybe I just don't get it?

pfreivald

07-03-2011, 20:33

I don't see a single downside to scoring in autonomous.

ChrisH

07-03-2011, 20:49

So don't we get points for towers not triggering?

The tower races can be scored manually if needed. However, because of the way such points are entered into the data base they do not wind up in an easily identifiable place. I forget exactly where they go, but there is a place for manually scored points. They will not show up in the minibot points column. They will be included in your final score for the match and will be used in your ranking score etc.

The problems with the towers are now a known issue and the FIRST technical staff will be working very hard to come up with a solution that allows teams to score without false scores from robots hitting the tower. Some attempts have already been made but apparently were not very successful.

The field staff including Scorers, Field Manager, Referees and FTA take this very seriously and will make sure your team gets all the points (and penalties too for that matter) they are entitled too.

Zuelu562

07-03-2011, 22:12

Can you explain your guide system, and the offended rule explanation?

Our guide system involved 2 rods going up and holding the minibot. If you have a similar system that keeps the minibot oriented correctly WHILE it's moving up the tower, you're going to need to cut it down so that your minibot is not in contact with the upward pole after it gets above the deployment line.

We have a PVC shaft attached to our minibot, that slides into the guide, and the second end of the guide holds it nearer to the tower. I'd try to get a picture, but I really do not have access to our minibot until next monday (or whenever our mentors want to meet to work on the robot again for battlecry.

Nikki Haux

07-03-2011, 22:54

liam.larkin

07-03-2011, 23:00

This is all really good information. Thanks for starting this thread. A lot is being mentioned on the logo pieces not being a priority. Do you think this is because of inexperience or something else? Do you think this was done intentionally, to make the autonomous and end game( Both a lot of programming), more important, or just the way we are playing the game?

I dont know if the GDC can actually truly anticipate exactly how the game will be played. I have had the honor of speaking to some of the greats Woodie Dave and the like and they always say. Well certaintly didnt anticipate that or didnt think of this solution. I think they make a huge effort to anticipate some general engineering hurdles but they are human and cant anticipate everything. I also think the game evolves over time. This game in that sense is like every other. I think over time the logo scoring will become more important as teams figure out the minibot. It will be intresting to see.

pfreivald

07-03-2011, 23:10

This is all really good information. Thanks for starting this thread. A lot is being mentioned on the logo pieces not being a priority. Do you think this is because of inexperience or something else? Do you think this was done intentionally, to make the autonomous and end game( Both a lot of programming), more important, or just the way we are playing the game?

At FLR, the dominant robots could score logo pieces quickly, consistently, and often.

Minibots are important. Autonomous is important. Logo pieces are important.

Do all three well, and you've got yourself a highly competitive robot. Don't, and you've got yourself a robot that might have a place on the right alliance. There's a difference, methinks.

Nikki Haux

07-03-2011, 23:20

At FLR, the dominant robots could score logo pieces quickly, consistently, and often.

Minibots are important. Autonomous is important. Logo pieces are important.

Do all three well, and you've got yourself a highly competitive robot. Don't, and you've got yourself a robot that might have a place on the right alliance. There's a difference, methinks.

I think this was the opinion I expected to see, but what I wasn't seeing on the rest of this thread. I assumed the autonomous would be least important, probably because that was how it was in the past. I didn't think about the amount of points you could get from that.

Paul Copioli

08-03-2011, 06:40

Scoring an Ubertube on the top row in auton is worth 12 points for your alliance if you are scoring your logo pieces is teleop correctly.

6 points for the ubertube in auton + 3 additional points for placing a logo piece on that ubertube + 3 additional points for the complete logo doubler. Bascially, a 3 point logo piece on the top row is now worth 6 when placed on an ubertube and worth 12 when it is also part of a completed logo.

For those counting, a single completed logo on the top row is worth the following taking ubertubes (and their auton points) into account:

0 UT - 18 points
1 UT - 30 points
2 UT - 42 points
3 UT - 54 points

I am sure the teams that can do 2 UT figured this out long before the rest of us.

IKE

08-03-2011, 09:41

I am sure the teams that can do 2 UT figured this out long before the rest of us.

There is the JVN guy that keeps a blog during the build season. He had a really good post about this exact subject a long time ago.
http://blog.iamjvn.com/2011/02/this-is-why-we-do-math.html
;)

While we didn't make a nice table like John did, we did pull up the 910 IRI video during week 1. Thanks again Foley for proving it could be done back in 2007.

Kims Robot

08-03-2011, 11:06

I think changing the rule to only be in effect when another robot is in the lane then will allow it to be abused easily. This is week one, I believe in Week 2+ drive-teams will have learned from Week 1 to avoid enroachment of the zones if they can help it.
I sort of disagree... I think it was the newness of the drivers getting used to how crowded the field was, and even through week 3 & 4 you will have plenty of teams that have never driven on a full size field with 6 robots & tons of tubes. My suggestion was simply because I believe the INTENT of the rule was to keep you from interfering with robots in the lane, but even when there is no robot, there are penalties, and there are just SOOOO many penalties this year.

Call me crazy, but it seams that human players have amazing aim this year. I would say that at least half of the tubes thrown hit the little pole in the middle of the 27ft wide field. :yikes:
At FLR one of them RUNG one of the towers with a white tube!!

I saw human players chucking alot of tubes that went flying towards the scorers table.
Teams should be discouraged from just throwing tubes wildly that could take out the scoring equipment. A yellow card might do the trick.
They were giving out yellow cards for humans throwing tubes... ours unfortunately got one, as he was trying to throw across the field and accidentally hit a nearby robot trying to score in its zone :(

A lot is being mentioned on the logo pieces not being a priority. Do you think this is because of inexperience or something else?
I believe its just that in week 1 logos did not score as much as minibots because sooo many teams had so much trouble with scoring logo pieces. Whether it was driver inexperience, robot issues, design flaws, or just shear field traffic, many teams chased tubes around the field and spent so much time just trying to score a single tube. My guess is that many of them drastically underestimated the difficulty of scoring on the high pegs, and went for "doing everything", rather than just getting good at the middle or lower pegs. Granted the really good robots could do it all, but I think too many tried to do it all, so logos were just not as common as originally intended perhaps. I think this will improve as drivers learn to drive their robots and teams fix all the bugs/tolerance issues. But it was very clear which teams either finished early or had second robots to get their drivers practicing on, and which teams didn't. I think there were maybe 5 robots that I would have called "good" at scoring logos at FLR.

pfreivald

08-03-2011, 11:33

I know we, for example, had a design flaw on our manipulator -- the tubes were so inflated that our claw couldn't hold them properly, and had difficulty floor loading.

We finally had it fixed by the end of qualifiers, and then were assigned the role of "defense + minibot" for our tournament alliance.

davidpoduska

08-03-2011, 13:04

Observations:

Logo formation is a must at 2x points, one team had 4.
Don't be afraid to try autonomous, it is difficult and even the teams which appeared to have it down missed, but you never know.
Try only 2 teams placing on the rack with one team retrieving tubes and placing them at your end so your scoring teams may use and harder for opponent. Some robots were wandering way too far to get tubes.
3 teams attempting to score appear to just get in each others way.
If a team cannot score then block tubes, get in the other teams way but stay out of their end, penalty.
Do not get a tube caught on the mini bot tower, penalty, found out hard way.
If your alliance has a mini bot then make sure you attempt to get it up the tower as it is a tie breaker against a team with out a bot, we found out the hard way again with a 50-50 loss, ouch.
Some teams "appear" to take too long trying to hook a poorly picked up tube instead of dropping it and picking the tube up properly.
Practice throwing tubes! The round ones roll to your end if done properly and poorly thrown ones hit the judges on the sidelines and are dropped nice and close for the other side.
SECURE BATTERY, often said but it happened again.
Loose wires, secure so they won't come out when the robot is hit.

rsisk

08-03-2011, 20:19

Observations:

Practice throwing tubes! The round ones roll to your end if done properly and poorly thrown ones hit the judges on the sidelines and are dropped nice and close for the other side.

Judges shouldn't be putting tubes back on the field. It might be OK for referees, but I'm pretty sure it is supposed to be the field reset people putting the tubes back into play.

Grim Tuesday

08-03-2011, 20:27

Make sure that your claw/grabber/manipulator is capable of taking overinflated tubes. We had to make some adjustments, since at FLR the tubes were properly (unlike how we had done them) inflated. IMO the issue with inflatable gamepieces.

On another note, atleast at FLR elims, the game was played the same way I think it will be in week 5. Alliances regularly scored 2+ logos (even at the quaterfinal levels) and then had a full (3 or 4) minibot race. I would watch videos from there, if anyone would upload them to look for strategy.

Karibou

08-03-2011, 20:31

Judges shouldn't be putting tubes back on the field. It might be OK for referees, but I'm pretty sure it is supposed to be the field reset people putting the tubes back into play.

I saw quite a few tubes fly off the field at Kettering, and I was only there for about 7 matches. It seemed like refs were putting quite a few back in, though I could tell that it was an inconvenience for them (they were blindly putting the tubes back in play while still keeping a close eye on the robots).

The tubes are light and easily float off the field if thrown in at the wrong angle and elevation.

GaryVoshol

08-03-2011, 22:01

Did you see me get smacked in the face by a triangle?

Andrew Lawrence

08-03-2011, 22:17

Did you see me get smacked in the face by a triangle?

Is there a video???? :D

Bill_B

08-03-2011, 23:31

most of teams think that during the autonomous the lowest row is not that high so they stay there for 15 seconds doing nothing.

My mentor told me that if you can't get to the top row, you shouldn't move during the autonomous (this is not what I'm thinking).
There is only one case where this advice is useful - One of your alliance partners CAN score it on the top row if you leave it for them. Otherwise, it will be better to hang the yellow tube for some points than to leave it around to get in your way.

Bill_B

08-03-2011, 23:34

Did you see me get smacked in the face by a triangle?
I read the game rules pretty carefully. There don't seem to be points for that. You did have safety glasses on, din-chu? ;)

Blackphantom91

09-03-2011, 04:11

1.Red Cards are extremely important to look out for and make sure teammates know the rules and how to not get them.
2.Minibots can change a game, end a game, and tie a game. In short their really important! Deployment needs to be on point every time.
3.Defense to me is useless if the robot is super hard to stop, Your more likely to get a penalty playing defense than actually stopping another team.
4.Hanging tubes fast and having an amazing human player is crucial to each other. A great human player can fuel a robot with enough ammo to hang two rows quick.
5. Its Strategy Stupid! un like last year there are multiple places to score in this game, communication, grabbing the right tubes,and strategically choosing where each team hangs and what they hang (so they don't collide and waste time) is really important.

I like this game its very interesting to me and all the neat arms, grippers, and minibots makes it very exciting and entertaining. I also wonder what weeks after will be like

waialua359

09-03-2011, 04:29

GaryVoshol

09-03-2011, 06:34

Is there a video???? :DMost probably, since every match was up on YouTube almost instantaneously. But I have no memory of what match it was ... maybe that has something to do with being smacked in the face. :rolleyes:

You did have safety glasses on, din-chu? ;)Of course. ::safety:: Although the tube caused my hard glasses to be pushed into my nose and eyebrows - without glasses I would have just been hit by a nice soft squishy tube.

MagiChau

09-03-2011, 06:47

Most probably, since every match was up on YouTube almost instantaneously. But I have no memory of what match it was ... maybe that has something to do with being smacked in the face. :rolleyes:

Of course. ::safety:: Although the tube caused my hard glasses to be pushed into my nose and eyebrows - without glasses I would have just been hit by a nice soft squishy tube.

The double uber-tube by 148 was in the finals I think.

Are you sure, those tubes might have got some dirt on them, it would be bad to get dust in your eye because of a nice squishy tube.

GaryVoshol

09-03-2011, 06:53

Dirt and dust and game pieces aside, I seriously would never consider being anywhere near the field without safety glasses. With up to an 84" wingspan, those robot arms can attack with little notice.

Ken Streeter

09-03-2011, 08:43

I bet we'll see at CMP this year an alliance doing all 3 UT.

Having three ubertubes in a match isn't something we'll need to wait until CMP to see -- indeed, it happened at the Granite State Regional in week one multiple times by the winning alliance of 175, 1519, and 176. What I was hoping to see was 6 ubertubes scored in one match; GSR came close with 5 ubertubes in Semifinal 2-2.

GSR Quarterfinal 4-1: http://www.youtube.com/user/FRCteam1519#p/u/6/6FR1aEnhcYA (3 ubertubes in auto by 1 alliance; note also the "ringer" thrown onto a tower!)

GSR Semifinal 2-2: http://www.youtube.com/user/FRCteam1519#p/u/3/drbPrGJlroI (5 ubertubes scored in autonomous)

GSR Final 1-1: http://www.youtube.com/user/FRCteam1519#p/u/2/1Bt4JM_FytE (3 ubertubes in auto by 1 alliance; this is also the highest combined score from Week One regionals - 117 to 82)

I anticipate that Week Two will probably feature a combined score of over 200 points from either the Florida Regional or the WPI Regional.

Ken Streeter

09-03-2011, 08:52

Did you see me get smacked in the face by a triangle?Is there a video???? :DMost probably, since every match was up on YouTube almost instantaneously. But I have no memory of what match it was ...

I wonder how long it will be until the video is featured on youtube as its own feature? Last year, Dean Kamen was kicked at point blank range by a soccer ball from a 1519 kick that had enough oomph to have flown the length of the field. Team 1902, Exploding Bacon, put it up on youtube pretty soon afterwards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnE0j69_gYk

PS: Glad to hear that you're okay, Gary!

Chris is me

09-03-2011, 08:55

I bet we'll see at CMP this year an alliance doing all 3 UT.

We've already seen a 3 Ubertube alliance in Week 1, multiple times.

Jared Russell

09-03-2011, 09:16

I am hoping to see one robot hang all three ubertubes by themselves at some point. A fast robot with a lightning quick lift and the ability to pick up and score from opposite ends of the robot would need to cover about 100 feet in 15 seconds (to the rack, to tube #2, to the rack, to tube #3, to the rack) in order to pull it off.

It would require optimization and precision at high speeds to a degree that is seldom seen in FRC, but secretly I am hoping that some enterprising team pulls it off :)

(469 and 1625...I'm looking at you!)

Mark McLeod

09-03-2011, 09:31

I am hoping to see one robot hang all three ubertubes by themselves at some point.
I'd like to see that ONLY if it's during an Elimination round, or the other alliance robots are not designed to hang tubes themselves.

During Qualifiers every robot should be doing or improving on what they do. I'd regret it if one team bullied the others into making a Qual into a showcase of a single robot. That's not what Quals are about...

Chris is me

09-03-2011, 09:39

During Qualifiers every robot should be doing or improving on what they do. I'd regret it if one team bullied the others into making a Qual into a showcase of a single robot. That's not what Quals are about...

If someone told me they had a three tube auto and they could sufficiently demonstrate that scoring at least two of the tubes was very guaranteed, I would gladly run no autonomous mode for that match.

Mark McLeod

09-03-2011, 09:43

Alpha Beta

09-03-2011, 10:24

I'd like to see that ONLY if it's during an Elimination round, or the other alliance robots are not designed to hang tubes themselves.

During Qualifiers every robot should be doing or improving on what they do. I'd regret it if one team bullied the others into making a Qual into a showcase of a single robot. That's not what Quals are about...

I see wisdom here. :cool:

I could see how it would be difficult when you are trying for a top seed and another team wanted to try a maneuver that both of you agreed probably wouldn't work. Whether that be a failed autonomous, or spending 60 seconds at the feeder slot trying to load a tube and keeping that human player from feeding anybody else... There are gracious words to be used that make every alliance member feel valued, and sometimes there are minor sacrifices to be made. Inspire others first, win second.

Thanks Mark for the sage advice. I'll pass this along to my team before we compete this weekend.

JVN

09-03-2011, 10:45

As long as that's your free choice.
Of course, your robot will be downgraded by most scouters for not scoring during autonomous and you'll drop on most pick lists in favor of the third robot on your alliance who did score...

P.S.
I'd suggest it be a team choice and the possible ramifications to their season of hard work be presented to them.

The flip side of this is, if your autonomous isn't any more consistent than the hypothetical 3 tube auton...
Now you're the team who we know is more interested in showing off than in doing what is most beneficial for the alliance to help win the match.

People notice things like that. Scouts on 148 like team players, and I assume we're not the only ones.

-John

Taylor

09-03-2011, 10:53

I am hoping to see one robot hang all three ubertubes by themselves at some point. A fast robot with a lightning quick lift and the ability to pick up and score from opposite ends of the robot would need to cover about 100 feet in 15 seconds (to the rack, to tube #2, to the rack, to tube #3, to the rack) in order to pull it off.

Not really. If the other two robots simply drive forward a set distance and drop their tubes in front of them, the third "triple-scoring" robot would simply have to turn to pick them up.
I don't know that we'll see it at CMP, but offseasons? Not impossible.

Mark McLeod

09-03-2011, 11:00

The flip side of this is, if your autonomous isn't any more consistent than the hypothetical 3 tube auton...
Now you're the team who we know is more interested in showing off than in doing what is most beneficial for the alliance to help win the match.

People notice things like that. Scouts on 148 like team players, and I assume we're not the only ones.

-John

Care to share the number of times you've picked nice guys over nice robot performance? :)

JVN

09-03-2011, 11:18

Care to share the number of times you've picked nice guys over nice robot performance? :)

We run into multiple instances where we're comparing two teams with almost identical robot performance, all the time. In these scenarios, we try to pick the partners who we think will "play smart" and do what they can to help the alliance.

This happens more frequently than you might imagine.

-John

Mark McLeod

09-03-2011, 11:22

We run into multiple instances where we're comparing two teams with almost identical robot performance, all the time. In these scenarios, we try to pick the partners who we think will "play smart" and do what they can to help the alliance.

This happens more frequently than you might imagine.

-John
We do this too, with close performance robots, but your "almost identical" robots won't be one of those who stepped aside to let you shine. They will have fallen in the scouting ratings for almost all other teams.

Chris is me

09-03-2011, 11:29

We take note of anomalies when scouting - i.e. "no auto mode to allow partner to score 3" - in order to make sure they aren't unfairly disadvantaged.

But if a team is skipping their auto to help someone, their auto probably wasn't very good anyway.

Karthik

09-03-2011, 14:21

Care to share the number of times you've picked nice guys over nice robot performance? :)

Teams who showcase individual strategies/features at the expense of their alliance's success always plummet down our pick list. In fact certain teams who have consistently done this year after year are no longer even considered for our pick list.

There's two angles to the scenario that's being discussed. Say Team A has a sketchy 3 tube auto mode, while Team B has a rock solid 1 tube mode. I would be very disappointed if Team A ran their three tube mode, as they're giving away the points that would be earned by Team B. Consider the second scenario, where Team A has an amazing and consistent 3 tube auto mode, while Team B has a sketchy 1 tube mode. This time I'd be annoyed if Team B ended up running their mode, costing the alliance the points that would be earned by Team A.

What a team does during in a match is clearly their own choice. If a team wants to showcase their own robot at the expense of their alliance, that's their own decision. Do I agree with it? No. I don't think it's gracious to sacrifice your partners' success at the expense of your own. But I also understand the motivations behind it.

On a related note, how is a team who decides to showcase their own robot at the expense of their alliance, any different than a team who throws a match for their own benefit? Many teams encourage the first type of behaviour, while vilifying the second. In my opinion, they're both examples of the same thing; a team putting their own goals and benefits ahead of their alliance partners.

robodude03

09-03-2011, 14:49

On a related note, how is a team who decides to showcase their own robot at the expense of their alliance, any different than a team who throws a match for their own benefit? Many teams encourage the first type of behaviour, while vilifying the second. In my opinion, they're both examples of the same thing; a team putting their own goals and benefits ahead of their alliance partners.

Absolutely agree with the points that you brought up in your post. I get irked when a team decides to throw a match for the sake of putting their own goals ahead of their alliance partners. This is mainly due to my experience (in Atlanta 2009) that cost us being undefeated in the qualifications. I understand why they made the move they did and it worked for them in the end, but it obviously the rest of the alliance.

Have to side with you in terms of this type of behavior. Teams should always do what is best for the alliance. This is the type of team that we look for when making our pick lists.

pfreivald

09-03-2011, 15:16

My philosophy: On the field, play to win, every game, within the bounds of GP.

If playing to win doens't showcase your robot, then what exactly did you build your robot to do?*

*Note: This rhetorical question is not directed at anyone in particular.

JaneYoung

09-03-2011, 15:28

Absolutely agree with the points that you brought up in your post. I get irked when a team decides to throw a match for the sake of putting their own goals ahead of their alliance partners.

In the scenarios that you, Karthik, and John are describing - are the teams always aware that they are putting their desires to showcase their robot ahead of the success of the alliance or, are they sometimes ignorant in making these decisions and capable of improvement or show improvement under the guidance and experience of savvy alliance partners?

Jane

Andy Baker

09-03-2011, 16:02

My week 1 lessons learned:

(keep in mind that this is the perspective of a Lead Robot Inspector)

------

1. Get your robot inspected early. Then, you can get in the bypass line and run many, many practice matches.

2. Weigh and size your robot early on Thursday. At the Alamo Regional, two teams did not bother to come over to weigh until it was too late (8:00pm) on Thursday. One weighed in 20 pounds overweight on Friday and the other was 6 pounds overweight. The 6-pound-heavy robot was also 1/2" too wide.

PARTIAL INSPECTIONS ON THURSDAY MORNING (weigh and size, and a few other things) is a good thing!

3. Check your Driver Station version. It needs to be 02.27.11.00 or even more recent. If you have an older version, then the field will take longer to connect to your robot, or it may not connect at all. Also, your cRIO needs to be version 28.

4. USE the 12/24 V to 5V converter so that you don't blow up your D-Link router. We saw about 5 teams do this in San Antonio. Some teams went out to Best Buy (or wherever) to buy a new one ($100?), while others borrowed loaners from the spare parts booth.

5. If you don't have your bumpers done, bring materials you need to make them with you to the event. They are not that hard to make. Too many teams are not prepared for this. Sure, it is nice for veteran teams to step up and make these bumpers for other teams, but WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? Bumpers are not hard to make. Three things are needed:

5.1. Get some pool noodles (Walmart or save some from summer)
5.2. Go to Home Depot for some wood screws, staples, aluminum angle, mailbox number stickers and some 3/4" plywood.
5.3. Go to JoAnn Fabric (or some other fabric store) and buy some duck cloth (or something similar).
5.4. Get some sharpie markers if the number stickers don't work for you.

I hope this simple things help your team breeze through inspection.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

robodude03

09-03-2011, 16:23

In the scenarios that you, Karthik, and John are describing - are the teams always aware that they are putting their desires to showcase their robot ahead of the success of the alliance or, are they sometimes ignorant in making these decisions and capable of improvement or show improvement under the guidance and experience of savvy alliance partners?

Jane

Actually in my case (one mentioned in my post) the team came out and told me they were going to throw the match. All water under the bridge now, but at the time it was difficult for us to swallow.
In most other cases, teams want to showcase their strengths. Depending on the alliance that we are facing I explain the situation and present all of the facts for the upcoming match. At that point, most teams understand what their part in the match is and if anything showcase the ability to work well with others and execute a strategy.

jblay

09-03-2011, 19:12

Teams who showcase individual strategies/features at the expense of their alliance's success always plummet down our pick list. In fact certain teams who have consistently done this year after year are no longer even considered for our pick list.

I don't think this is a very smart thing to do. Just because a team is out of it in terms of getting into the top 8 and thinks it is important to showcase their skills doesn't mean you shouldn't think about picking them. A team that does this just wants to play in the elimination matches and win, so how does that make them a worse pick for the elimination matches. It isn't like they will do this during the eliminations so why take them off of your list?

Chris is me

09-03-2011, 19:13

I don't think this is a very smart thing to do. Just because a team is out of it in terms of getting into the top 8 and thinks it is important to showcase their skills doesn't mean you shouldn't think about picking them.

If they are putting their interests ahead of the interests of their alliance partners, I have no interest in picking them.

If none of the three are anywhere near the top 8, they won't need to do anything out of the ordinary to attempt to show off.

HarveyAce

09-03-2011, 19:28

out of curiosity, how does throwing a match in any way help your team, let alone the alliance? all it does is add a losss to your record. and if you are throwing a match, thats not very GP like!

JaneYoung

09-03-2011, 19:32

Actually in my case (one mentioned in my post) the team came out and told me they were going to throw the match. All water under the bridge now, but at the time it was difficult for us to swallow.
In most other cases, teams want to showcase their strengths. Depending on the alliance that we are facing I explain the situation and present all of the facts for the upcoming match. At that point, most teams understand what their part in the match is and if anything showcase the ability to work well with others and execute a strategy.

What I'm wondering is - would this topic be a good workshop or even Championship Conference level presentation to develop? I think there's a lot of information/training opportunity for what it takes to be valuable to an alliance here.

Just a thought,
Jane

Bill_B

09-03-2011, 19:51

Not really. If the other two robots simply drive forward a set distance and drop their tubes in front of them, the third "triple-scoring" robot would simply have to turn to pick them up.
I don't know that we'll see it at CMP, but offseasons? Not impossible.
You don't even have to drop. Pushing a UT to the right place for pickup could do it. In either case, the commentary regarding the relative reliability of auto routines would apply. Giving up a certain 4 or even 2 points for a possible score by a single 'bot is akin to the slam-dunk. The term has come to mean a more reliable process than the actual on-court results. Showing off is best reserved for a show and not a game.

robodude03

09-03-2011, 20:36

What I'm wondering is - would this topic be a good workshop or even Championship Conference level presentation to develop? I think there's a lot of information/training opportunity for what it takes to be valuable to an alliance here.

Just a thought,
Jane

Showcasing your robot in an alliance...hmmm I like the sound of that. It would definitely be beneficial to teams that are new to FIRST and would go hand-in-hand with alliance strategy.

Karthik

09-03-2011, 20:51

I don't think this is a very smart thing to do. Just because a team is out of it in terms of getting into the top 8 and thinks it is important to showcase their skills doesn't mean you shouldn't think about picking them. A team that does this just wants to play in the elimination matches and win, so how does that make them a worse pick for the elimination matches. It isn't like they will do this during the eliminations so why take them off of your list?

We've found that teams who are not willing to listen to a smart strategy during qualification matches are very likely to not listen during the elimination rounds. Simply put, these are teams we don't feel comfortable working with.

jblay

10-03-2011, 00:14

We've found that teams who are not willing to listen to a smart strategy during qualification matches are very likely to not listen during the elimination rounds. Simply put, these are teams we don't feel comfortable working with.

I guess I can see where you are coming from on that now. But in my opinion, that doesn't mean that a team is not willing to listen to a smart strategy its just a team that is willing to take a risk in the hopes that they will make eliminations, but thats my opinion. In my experience I don't think I have ever had a team that didn't cooperate with our strategy if we were alliance captains. For us it wouldn't change our pick list in either direction but I could understand why it would change yours and you can't argue with your results.

pfreivald

10-03-2011, 07:25

We've found that teams who are not willing to listen to a smart strategy during qualification matches are very likely to not listen during the elimination rounds. Simply put, these are teams we don't feel comfortable working with.

This might mean something coming from a team that wins something once in a while. But from you guys? Pshaw.*

*Note: The above post is swimming in irony. Just swimming.

thefro526

10-03-2011, 09:20

out of curiosity, how does throwing a match in any way help your team, let alone the alliance? all it does is add a losss to your record. and if you are throwing a match, thats not very GP like!

*NOTE* In no way, shape, or form do I condone throwing matches, nor have we ever done it. This post is written in purely hypothetical terms, so that those who do not understand throwing matches can understand. */NOTE*

Hypothetically, Under certain situations, throwing a match can be advantageous.

Let's say you're shaping up to be the #7 seed, but you have no desire to be the number #7 seed. Lose a match and you drop out of the top 8.

Or, a team is looking at picking you, and you know the pick is almost guaranteed. You sandbag your last few matches of qualifications to appear to be broken, worse than your were before, etc - with the hope that you will be over looked during alliance selections until the team who is "supposed" to pick you, picks you.

You're on an alliance with the current #1, #2, or #3 seed, and a team that is close with you is seeded one behind your partner. By playing at a less than maximum capacity, you lose the match. The partner who is a higher seed will drop in seeding, allowing the team that is close to you to move up.

I'm sure there are other reasons for throwing matches, but those are the most common ones that I've heard of.

Before you think of throwing matches, remember this: If most teams hear that you threw a match to change the seeding, then you'll instantly get black listed on their pick list. I've had teams request that we throw a match, or tell us before hand that they weren't going to play at their full potential, and it's sickening, and I've also had close friends have perfect records ruined by a team that decided they were going to throw a match. It's really not something you want to do, or have your team name associated with.

Kims Robot

10-03-2011, 09:32

5.4. Get some sharpie markers if the number stickers don't work for you.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't use sharpie!! Buy or borrow some white fabric paint!! Its IMPOSSIBLE to read black on blue from the stands, and often hard to read black on red.

I can't tell you how many times our scouters had to pull out binoculars or cameras with zooms in order to figure out what the team number is. The whole concept of "a contrasting color" and the ability to tell teams by their bumpers is lost with black on blue.

OK fine if you have silver sharpie or something that will show up, but white fabric paint is cheap & just as easy!

JaneYoung

10-03-2011, 13:26

I saw some bright pink paint being used but didn't see the final product to see if there was enough contrast, this weekend. Maybe outlined in black?

Also, if you buy spray paint and stencils to paint the numbers on, please don't paint inside the venue and be aware of where the paint is spraying beyond the the bumpers. In other words, don't leave you mark permanently on venue property.

Jane

RoboMom

10-03-2011, 17:26

Have a back up plan. Stuff happens.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=93435

TD912

10-03-2011, 18:03

Its IMPOSSIBLE to read black on blue from the stands, and often hard to read black on red.

I also agree with this. Although it may look visible when viewing up close, it is usually quite difficult to see from the stands. A black permanent marker may work as a quick fix, but try to use contrasting colors for better visibility.

Kimmeh

10-03-2011, 20:07

I also agree with this. Although it may look visible when viewing up close, it is usually quite difficult to see from the stands. A black permanent marker may work as a quick fix, but try to use contrasting colors for better visibility.

We've typically found that white works very well.

MagiChau

10-03-2011, 20:41

Probably would help if they outline their black numbers with a silver sharpie or something so they don't have to entirely redo their bumper cover numbers.

jcbc

18-03-2011, 12:04

For us, this was a matter of sensor calibration. In order to follow the lines under FLR lighting conditions, we had to turn the gain on the line finders all the way up -- but because the center of the Y is also the center of the field, and the black tape they use to tape the carpet together is somewhat reflective, the sensors would then read the black tape *after* the Y, and thus keep on driving straight.

We verified this by putting our sensors right over the black tape during the practice day -- sure enough, it was triggering them!

Our autonomous worked fine on the practice field (which did not have the black tape), and fine at home, but would not work on the field itself.

Just another heads-up that that black tape is certainly an issue when programming for branching. I have attached a screen grab from the Chesapeake Regional Webcast which shows the black tape at the Y.