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JoeXIII'007
26-03-2011, 23:55
Great blog JVN, thanks for sharing, and my goodness I am late to this conversation.

First, my hopefully short and concise thoughts on the events you speak of seem more or less reflective of the state of culture in a fair (not all, but a handful) number of places in the US. In my neighborhood and those surrounding it there are attitudes that seem out of place. Heck, in conversation with someone at a company around here this person uttered some things about another country that frankly put a dent in things.

Then there's the state of politics in this country, but we've been there before on CD... ;) (2004 though was frankly heaven compared to what we've seen lately...)

The solution to this mess is best left to social scientists, and I'll leave it at that. That is not to say FIRST should not bother with this problem: a culture of professionalism seems to be a mitigating factor when keeping the nasty stuff out, and the GP concept is a loveable, irreplaceable, forbidden to be removed part of FIRST.

****

Now for some perspective from being on Team 66.

My 4 years on it (2004-2007) were interesting. All of them started the same: kick-off, meeting at the 'war room' the Sunday after to go through the concept design brainstorming process (list possibilities, knock off the unlikely possibilities, end of day: have a rough idea of what we want), the following week refine the design down to specific mechanisms, and then spend the next few weeks building the practice field, learning how to use lathes, drill presses, grinders, etc. etc. etc. while getting briefed on any changes to design that occurred. A few times we got to ride in a little cart to tour select parts of the plant that we worked in, and now that it is closed (http://www.annarbor.com/business-review/gm-willow-run-one-last-look-as-historic-manufacturing-plant-closes/), I am forever thankful for having that opportunity.

Which leads to perhaps a point to drop here: I have been thinking back occasionally wondering, what was actually more important? learning the skills necessary to build a robot? or learning the thinking process necessary to get there? a process which coincidentally can be applied to a lot of other things with a few minor tweaks.

The former, skills to build X, depend highly upon the availability of resources to get it done, and resources are limited so long as we're stuck here on Earth (thus why measure 2 or more times, cut once, recycle/reuse the rest if possible). The latter, a thought process, depends only on your mind and mine, which lasts pretty much until death, and can be used in a countless number of things (i.e. Data Mining, a personal favorite), including those which have yet to be encountered.

(Repeating that last point was not an accident...)

I digress, back to the main point. So 66 became a powerhouse after 4 years of existence (2002, birth 1998) because we had professionals, who knew their stuff and knew it well, demonstrate their craft. From 2004 on, this was the way things went. It's clearly worked, and in fact has worked so well that even without the mentor resources/other resources once available, 66 has been able to compete strongly this season.

So competitiveness becomes a norm, outreach follows, because there's a stable platform to work out from.

How has this worked? Well, day after kick off this year, I stop by the now 1 year old new nest of the team, and I discover more NXT bricks than ever laying around the room (6?). This is progress from the year I graduated, where we only had one NXT brick and a struggling FLL team (partly my fault for not doing the proper work to set up a decent structure as I was more concerned with the existence of a team... , partly the fault of a lack of resources within the district/will, and time on my end as there was school and dual enrollment).

Also, I heard that there were some 20-30 kids, mostly new ones on the team. I found that out officially this weekend. Greatest thing: it's probably the most diverse in cultural background than the team has ever been. It's _______ beautiful, and humbling, and amazing, and beyond anything I had ever imagined. Now it's just a matter of getting these kids exposed to the methods of design, the thinking involved, the teamwork necessary, and they'll have things that will last their entire lifetime if they take care to use it.

Oh yeah, an actual robotics class... good Lord it came to life. Yes!!!

Obviously, a lot of detail is missing here, and I do not have details to what all he did (beyond finding new sponsors and negotiating with the board of ed.), but the current teacher/mentor of 66 has done an amazing job.

So this should be taken as perspective. I've been in the camp of more student involvement certainly, to the point where I always help out with the other team in town at the annual festival, and as a result have made great friends over the years. We keep in touch.

This all said, there are things from the mentor built end of the world that are worth reading between the lines on, because they're important, more so than often noted. I hope to have successfully hinted on it here.

*puts two steel pennies in the can*

:cool:

SenorZ
27-03-2011, 13:49
Every sport, even FIRST, has "jocks" that are sore losers and ungratious winners.

As a rookie team mentor in the Los Angeles regional I did notice some of the powerhouse teams (recent champs) have a mix of kind and cocky kids. The mentors all were really nice and professional, and in the pits everyone was very helpful. But, once on the field, even members of our own alliance were a bit pushy, jockying for positions, and in one instance telling my kids what OUR strategy would be. Supposed to be a team effort.

Koko Ed
27-03-2011, 15:02
Every sport, even FIRST, has "jocks" that are sore losers and ungratious winners.

As a rookie team mentor in the Los Angeles regional I did notice some of the powerhouse teams (recent champs) have a mix of kind and cocky kids. The mentors all were really nice and professional, and in the pits everyone was very helpful. But, once on the field, even members of our own alliance were a bit pushy, jockying for positions, and in one instance telling my kids what OUR strategy would be. Supposed to be a team effort.

I always find it wiser to defer to experience. And alot of rookies just do their own thing (just driving around and bumping into things aint gonna cut it). If you prove quite effective at executing the strategy and are a flexible talent you may catch their eye.

RevonZZ
27-03-2011, 23:36
Positively unacceptable. I can believe the local crowd booing, I can even give the belief to students being derogatory from time to time, but to have it as the norm for even mentors is profound.

All I'll say is my advice for all: Be Aces

Aces are knights of a round table. Aces are battlemasters who give respect and receive admiration. Aces strive to uphold the virtues of hard work and humility. Aces are people who work not for themselves, but their friends, their teams and humanity as a whole. Finally, Aces work to the bitter end to uphold and spread these values.

Be Aces, FIRST.

AmoryG
28-03-2011, 01:10
People who make these kinds of comments against powerhouses such as 1114 aren't realizing that students on teams with mentor built robots are getting gypped out of a lot more than regional wins and awards. I've heard many complaints from students of teams that are too tightly controlled by their mentors. Some of these students even ask for advice on chiefdelphi.

You would think if 1114 or other powerhouses had this sort of problem, a student might have complained about it by now?

BrendanB
28-03-2011, 11:00
Every sport, even FIRST, has "jocks" that are sore losers and ungratious winners.

As a rookie team mentor in the Los Angeles regional I did notice some of the powerhouse teams (recent champs) have a mix of kind and cocky kids. The mentors all were really nice and professional, and in the pits everyone was very helpful. But, once on the field, even members of our own alliance were a bit pushy, jockying for positions, and in one instance telling my kids what OUR strategy would be. Supposed to be a team effort.

I agree with Koko, sometimes the experience is what leads the alliance. I was involved for 3 years on a successful team and I have been going to competitions since 2003 so I'm not foreign to how matches go and effective strategies since I have watched so much. This year mentoring a rookie team and being the drive coach was good lesson in humility as in many matches I couldn't just say what everyone else should do, it wasn't my place. Now that doesn't mean that rookies should just listen and that is it. By mid friday our team had been in the top 5 all day so we did have more say in the alliance strategy. Where you excell and stand out to these powerhouses is that you do what they ask and then some! I told our drivers in a match when we were with 2 of the best robots on the field that they were to stay out of their way even if it meant we couldn't score because getting in their way as a low row robot was only hurting our alliance.

Being told is never something anyone wants, but it is something we will always face in life both on and off the field.

Mr. D
02-04-2011, 02:17
Hello Everyone,
I've been thinking about this for a long time. I heard some horrible, interesting stories from the Pittsburgh regional this past weekend which helped solidify my thoughts.

I managed to put these thoughts into words here:
http://blog.iamjvn.com/2011/03/another-culture-change.html

I hope you'll take a minute to read, reflect, and hopefully join me in helping to shift OUR culture.

-John

As Mentor for Team 1708 and a Pittsburgh native let me apologize to Team 1114 and all FIRST teams who may have been affected by this behavior. Our team was in the pit right next to 1114 and I pray we were not part of the offenders, if so I do apologize and ask that someone please notify me of this behavior, it will stop.

When 1708 entered The Peterson Events Center in 2005 after entering FRC with two and a half weeks left in the build season and carrying our tools in grocery bags we were in awe of what we saw. That soon ended when an adult from an established FIRST community outside of Pittsburgh and sporting multicolored hair came by our table and commented to a friend "what is that piece of crap doing here", welcome to FIRST team 1708. Luckily for us Team 365 and John Larock were also at the event and taught us about "Gracious Professionalism". and what FIRST really is.

1114 you have an awesome 'bot, organization and drive team, so good we all want to beat you, but not this way. Go Teams.

synth3tk
02-04-2011, 21:17
As much as I'd love to read all 18 pages, I can't bring myself to do it right now.

That being said, I should hope that in the future, if a team is receiving a significant amount of heckling, enough that the staff/judges would be prompted to apologize to the team, that someone would get a quick announcement made in between the matches, or during the next day's opening ceremonies.

Names, team numbers, details, and social security numbers don't need to be mentioned, but the staff should have every right to address this issue publicly, whether it's through the MC, the announcer, or whomever else is permitted to have the floor for a few minutes.