View Full Version : minibot battery
WileyB-J
21-03-2011, 20:36
just saw this, Detroit regional..
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5139/5545324007_c21b989bde.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/danielernst/5545324007/)
what are peoples thoughts (on the legality of the battery)?
martin417
21-03-2011, 20:38
According to this (http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16610) Q&A this is expressly forbidden.
01-25-2011, 07:25 PM
2011FRC3238
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5
Minibot battery modification
Is it permitted to separate the cells of the minibot battery (keeping the electrical configuration intact)?
#2
01-31-2011, 03:39 PM
GDC
Game Design Committee
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,762
Re: Minibot battery modification
This would be a violation of R92-C.
WileyB-J
21-03-2011, 20:42
According to this (http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16610) Q&A this is expressly forbidden.
no kidding. heres another shot of it:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5095/5545322197_aacd6b60f2.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/danielernst/5545322197/)
Andrew Schreiber
21-03-2011, 20:44
Assuming that is the two halves of the actual tetrix battery it is legal. No where in the Minibot rules does it forbid modification of the battery.
Edit: How is it a violation of 92c? It is not more than 1 battery.
If that's two of the allowed batteries, then one of them is definitely illegal. If it's one split in half, that would probably place it under the "illegal" category due to it no longer being identical to the legal battery. <R92-C> bans more than one battery and non-identical batteries (save the fuse replacement).
You might be able to do it if one of the batteries was not connected, but that is still a violation of <R92-C>.
I'm not going to ask whose it was, or who let it onto the field. But if they read this, then I might suggest replacing one battery with an appropriate mass of an allowed material--and the other with a fully legal battery--or moving the battery location.
martin417
21-03-2011, 20:48
Assuming that is the two halves of the actual tetrix battery it is legal. No where in the Minibot rules does it forbid modification of the battery.
Edit: How is it a violation of 92c? It is not more than 1 battery.
Don't ask me, the GDC has spoken.
royal robotics
21-03-2011, 20:54
if it is allegle y did thay let it on::rtm::
Edit: How is it a violation of 92c? It is not more than 1 battery.
There is a single word in <R92-C> that can make the difference between legal and illegal here. That word is "identical". The battery, once split into halves, is no longer identical to the battery as purchased. Hence, it's not legal to use.
I think that's what the GDC was saying regarding separating the cells.
Andrew Schreiber
21-03-2011, 21:01
Don't ask me, the GDC has spoken.
I agree that it SHOULDN'T be because it just looks like it should be illegal but I couldn't find a rule against it.
if it is allegle y did thay let it on::rtm::
English please...
It is possible they didn't find a rule against it (I didn't when I looked).
They didn't find a rule against it. However, that's because they didn't look in the Q&A. See Martin's post. That's not the rule... but it's supposed to be how the rule is called.
Now, how separating a cells is a violation is the tough part. I would suspect that the rule calling for an identical battery is why it's a violation. Not sure how an electrically unchanged battery being separated while remaining electrically the same is a violation--electrically, it should be identical--but, nonetheless, that is the call the GDC has chosen to make, and as such is the ruling that needs to be listened to.
Oh, and If I can translate royal robotics' post: "if it is illegal why did they let it on ::rtm::" (Next up after proper English spelling will be proper English capitalization and punctuation, which for now is left as an exercise for those that need the practice.)
It's quite possible that the inspectors simply missed that it was illegal, and nobody complained at the event. This happens from time to time; there have been robots rebuilt at the Championship because they were not in compliance with the rules, yet they had passed regional inspection. I've had to reject stuff that non-official inspections had said was okay. It happens.
Mike Betts
21-03-2011, 21:32
According to this (http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16610) Q&A this is expressly forbidden.
Martin, Eric, et al,
The problem is that FIRST did not publish a search-able, consolidated Q&A this year and most events did not have internet access available to the inspectors.
If a team presented a Q&A to support their claim to legality, it was accepted. However, if an inspector "remembered" seeing a Q&A stating something was illegal, the LRI was forced to rule in favor of the team.
As an inspector, similar rule "violations" happened to me twice in FL and I was forced to let the violations go in favor of the teams because the rules did not expressly forbid it.
Mike
Martin, Eric, et al,
The problem is that FIRST did not publish a search-able, consolidated Q&A this year and most events did not have internet access available to the inspectors.
If a team presented a Q&A to support their claim to legality, it was accepted. However, if an inspector "remembered" seeing a Q&A stating something was illegal, the LRI was forced to rule in favor of the team.
As an inspector, similar rule "violations" happened to me twice in FL and I was forced to let the violations go in favor of the teams because the rules did not expressly forbid it.
Mike
Like what? Just curious to know because I really never remember hearing anything at the regional.
Mike Betts
21-03-2011, 22:51
Like what? Just curious to know because I really never remember hearing anything at the regional.
Mike,
Why should you have? Without a comprehensive Q&A, the rulings went in favor of the team...
For example, what if a team had a minibot magnet with an integral metal cover? Many COTS magnets, such as a cabinet latch or some refrigerator magnets, are sold this way... This GDC insight (http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=17472) may have been overlooked in favor of the team...
Without the Q&A, the LRI is forced to give the team the benefit of the doubt.
Teams are likely to print out Q&As that support their design decisions but not those which point out their "illegality". I know of no inspectors that print out over 300 GDC "gems" and, even if they did, there is no time to manually search that paper stack.
An electronically searchable database (like this one (http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2010_Assets/Team_Updates/Q_A_Forum_2010-export.pdf) from last year) is the only solution and FIRST decided not to provide these this year...
We do the best with what we have...
Mike
So what's the difference between splitting the battery into two 6v packs and running it in series to get 12v or removing/changing the gearbox from the ftc gearmotor?
PAR_WIG1350
21-03-2011, 23:40
So what's the difference between splitting the battery into two 6v packs and running it in series to get 12v or removing/changing the gearbox from the ftc gearmotor?
One is legal, the other isn't. It isn't really something the GDC is likely to give their reasoning for.
Please see page 67. I believe you will find an answer there as well as other places in the official GDC consolidated response to questions.
Please also see Update 5. In addition, some teams came to regional events with a minibot battery wrapped in transparent wrapping. The only official battery is the Tetrix battery wrapped in the black wrapping material.
Good luck, everyone.
Mike Betts
22-03-2011, 00:05
Please see page 67. I believe you will find an answer there as well as other places in the official GDC consolidated response to questions.
Please also see Update 5. In addition, some teams came to regional events with a minibot battery wrapped in transparent wrapping. The only official battery is the Tetrix battery wrapped in the black wrapping material.
Good luck, everyone.
May I ask where this document came from? I traded emails with Al Skierkiewicz on the 9th and it did not exist to his knowledge. It was not available at FL either...
I just checked the First site Manual, Team updates and KOP pages and saw nothing.
Could you provide a link?
Mike
There is a good reason to make separating the battery illegal. The heavy duty shrink wrap is for insulation as well as holding the batteries together. If you've dissected one of these "sub C" style of battery packs you'll find that the the cells are arranged with half of the positive terminals "up" and half of them "down" so it isn't hard to create a short circuit creating a "loop" between 2 or more batteries. Allowing that shrink wrap to be removed creates the need to have a standard as to what constitutes appropriate re-insulation thus putting additional demands on the inspectors.
I did notice in the Cascade/Olympic pits on Fri at least one minibot go by that had a clear wrap which made me think it wasn't a legal battery.
All a clear wrap means is that it is an older Tetrix battery.
Al Skierkiewicz
22-03-2011, 08:14
Mike,
It was emailed to LRI's on the 10th or 11th. Do you have it now? I can send it to you.
This is the section...
Minibot battery modification
Posted by 2011FRC3238 at 01/25/2011 07:25:54 pm
Is it permitted to separate the cells of the minibot battery (keeping the electrical configuration
intact)?
Re: Minibot battery modification
Posted by GDC at 01/31/2011 03:39:37 pm
This would be a violation of R92-C.
It is simply a violation because of the words "C. no more than one 12V rechargeable NiMH battery pack identical to those supplied in the FTC kit of parts"
This is keeping with the modification rules in the body of the robot rules <R55> M.
May I ask where this document came from? I traded emails with Al Skierkiewicz on the 9th and it did not exist to his knowledge. It was not available at FL either...
I just checked the First site Manual, Team updates and KOP pages and saw nothing.
Could you provide a link?
Mike
I saw Al's response as well; thank you. I don't remember having this sent to me. However, my download folder says I pulled this down on the 11th of March. It was posted by Frank Merrick. I remember pulling this off the FIRST site from the competition manual section. It is no longer there, however. I checked the FIRST site when I got home from the day's competition on the 11th and it was there. I immediately used it to help sort out a minibot question that came up in San Diego. That's what I recall anyway.
Thanks
Correction: I followed the link from my download folder, which shows this was clearly posted in the forum section on the FIRST site. I have either lost my mind or it was never there because I can no longer find it. Below is the link where it was.
http://forums.usfirst.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2559&d=1299697295
All a clear wrap means is that it is an older Tetrix battery.
Agree; however, when you read the rule then look at Team Update 5, it is pretty clear the only allowable battery is the attached:
http://parts.ftcrobots.com/store/detail.aspx?CategoryID=171&by=9&ID=6361&c=1&t=0&l=0
Al Skierkiewicz
22-03-2011, 23:47
Cascade,
There is no difference in the batteries, simply a change in heat shrink by the manufacturer.
Yes, agree with you, Al: 12 vdc, 3,000mA. But some teams gobbled onto the word "identical" in rules and when you look up the Tetrix battery it is currently in the black wrapper. Too much and to literal, I know. That just seems to be where we are this year on some issues like light switches for example.
Take care
Al Skierkiewicz
23-03-2011, 22:19
Cascade,
Depending on when you purchased an FTC kit it may have been delivered with clear heatshrink or black. So either meets the rule of identical to that supplied in the FTC Kit.
May I ask where this document came from? I traded emails with Al Skierkiewicz on the 9th and it did not exist to his knowledge. It was not available at FL either...
I just checked the First site Manual, Team updates and KOP pages and saw nothing.
Could you provide a link?
Mike
Mike, found it again. Look in the LRI Forum, second post from the bottom, by fmerrick. The .PDF is there.
Thanks
Cascade,
Depending on when you purchased an FTC kit it may have been delivered with clear heatshrink or black. So either meets the rule of identical to that supplied in the FTC Kit.
Very good; thank you for the assist.
Alice141
26-03-2011, 03:13
I was wondering about the wording of the Minibot rules:
The FRC manual sec4:
R92"exactly one 12V rechargeable NiMH battery pack identical to those supplied in the FTC kit of parts (PN W739057)"
But
"No more than one HiTechnic DC motor controllers"
Since FIRST did not choose to say "No more than one battery", are you required to have the 2lb battery on your Minibot?
Thanks,
Yes, You are required to have that battery on the minibot.
Also the only legal source of power for the minibot upwards motions is that battery. Spring or anything else besides the battery is not allowed to provide or assist the upwards movement of the minibot.
I was wondering about the wording of the Minibot rules:
The FRC manual sec4:
R92"exactly one 12V rechargeable NiMH battery pack identical to those supplied in the FTC kit of parts (PN W739057)"
But
"No more than one HiTechnic DC motor controllers"
Since FIRST did not choose to say "No more than one battery", are you required to have the 2lb battery on your Minibot?
Thanks,
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