View Full Version : pic: Lamp_Switch
[cdm-description=photo]36731[/cdm-description]
Jared Russell
23-03-2011, 11:24
Where was this taken?
(And does it come in DPDT?)
Clinton Bolinger
23-03-2011, 11:27
That looks like a Home Depot sales tag.
-Clinton-
The Lucas
23-03-2011, 11:28
Are you planning on pulling up CD on a smartphone if there is any questions during the inspection process? ;)
Hey look, Al said it was "A-OK", and he knows more than like all of us combined :D
The Lucas
23-03-2011, 13:08
Where was this taken?
(And does it come in DPDT?)
Doesn't look like any DPDT it at Home Depot, but here is the link to the page (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100122779/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053) (hope it works outside of my local store).
[EDIT] Amazon has this Product Description (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LNNUYO/ref=noref?ie=UTF8&s=hi&psc=1)
Single pole, single throw maintained contact. For household appliances, various lamps, and lighting fixtures. 2 prewired 6" stripped leads. 3A 250V AC; 3A 125VT; 6A 125V AC; 6A 125VL. UL listed. Nickel plated, 1 per card.
Emphasis mine. If this is interpreted as legal, we can probably make the bestseller jump from #139,085 in Home Improvement
TheOtherGuy
23-03-2011, 13:29
Team 60 had one of these on their minibot in AZ. We (inspectors) let it slide, but I think it's cutting pretty far into the gray area of what's allowed.
Sunshine
23-03-2011, 13:35
Team 60 had one of these on their minibot in AZ. We (inspectors) let it slide, but I think it's cutting pretty far into the gray area of what's allowed.
Why:
I have this exact switch on my desk lamp that is right in front of me?
Rules state: no more than two common household light switches.
What else would this switch be used for if not a light switch?
TheOtherGuy
23-03-2011, 13:47
Why:
I have this exact switch on my desk lamp that is right in front of me?
Rules state: no more than two common household light switches.
What else would this switch be used for if not a light switch?
I think I may have exaggerated, but it's mostly a question of interpretation; when I hear the term "common household light switch", I think of the typical light switch found as a part of a house that controls a light in the house. A desk lamp switch just doesn't seem to me like a "household light switch". I know there are questions in the Q&A about the non-slip pad, and the GDC has ruled that only materials marketed as a pad with non-slip properties are allowed. This lamp switch isn't really marketed as a common household light switch.
Again, just interpretation.
This was taken at Home Depot. Yes, there is a SPDT (all that is necessary) right next to it, but ... it doesn't say "lamp". The DPDT in the same area was a toggle switch at this particular Home Depot. I don't think the packaging on this particular switch mentions "lamps" or "lights".
I took this picture as proof that it was a marketed as a "lamp switch" which I believed was a reasonable interpretation of the update about "light switches".
I would never reference "CD" as an official rules source, but I value the opinions of many members of this community. I thought I would get some opinion feedback on this particular switch before investing another $16 on switches (2/minibot). I don't want to sound cheap, but the minibot budget has quickly ramped into a level that would be a reasonable budget for many main robots. Yes the kit was "free", but spares and blown motors, and extra batteries, light switches, and 3-way lgiht switches, and 4-way light switches and and and ... start adding up really quickly.
I know the limit switches come in SPDT variety, but they are less than 2N of force for most of the reasonable ones of those, thus requiring some sort of additinal mechanism.
447 used a similar lamp switch on our minibot at BMR. We purchased ours from a local TrueValue. We passed inspection, but was told we were really pushing the interpretation of common household light switch. After a team discussion, we decided that we could continue to use the switch as it is used commonly on lamps and the wall-mount requirement was removed in an update.
Just my $0.02
Also FYI, during the regional we successfully deployed on the field twice (+ numerous successes on the practice field) and successfully triggered the tower both times.
"I think I may have exaggerated, but it's mostly a question of interpretation; when I hear the term "common household light switch", I think of the typical light switch found as a part of a house that controls a light in the house. A desk lamp switch just doesn't seem to me like a "household light switch". I know there are questions in the Q&A about the non-slip pad, and the GDC has ruled that only materials marketed as a pad with non-slip properties are allowed. This lamp switch isn't really marketed as a common household light switch."
In reference to the above comment. I would refer that the switch in question is indeed used in household application as it is used in some light fixtures in the bathroom, bedroom and kitchen (on the exhaust hood above the stove). This would make it a household common light switch.
Past observations living in many apartments and house over the last 40 years or so.:)
thefro526
23-03-2011, 18:08
I bought four of these from Home Depot Yesterday.
The Back of the packaging says "For lamp and lighting fixtures" - I'm pretty sure it's a light switch.
sanddrag
23-03-2011, 18:11
There should be no "this is really pushing it, but we'll allow it" with the rules. A switch is either for a household lamp/light or isn't. It's not a matter of anyone's opinion. This switch is. See the description.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HEFDMY
Also, see Team Update 12.
I know of 1 team that used this type of switch at Waterford and was warned not to show up at their next competetion with the same switch unless they could show that is was a light switch and not a lamp switch!!! So beware!!
Al Skierkiewicz
23-03-2011, 18:21
Guys,
We inspect to the rules and interpretations given us by the GDC. Our direction is in TU#12...
Therefore, “light switches” permitted on the MINIBOT are not confined to those used in wall mounting boxes; anything sold as a “light switch” for household use is allowed.
If it says "lightswitch" on the box, card, bin, or website and you can show that the label stating "lightswitch" matches the switch you are using, we must pass it.
Our team's minibot used a similar switch. We passed inspection at the NYC Regional. We brought the packaging that said something like "Toggling lamp light switch" just in case, but we didn't have any issues with the inspectors.
TheOtherGuy
23-03-2011, 22:30
Past observations living in many apartments and house over the last 40 years or so.:)
That would probably have changed my interpretation :) Team update 12 does indeed allow these switches. Sorry for the confusion - it was my first time inspecting and I haven't had much time with FRC this year. I'll make sure to read the rules three times next year ;)
Team#2057-Vegas
23-03-2011, 23:50
Team 2057 used this exact switch.. its with the "special switches" at home depot. It was successful for our minibot but BE CAREFUL.. it does take a lotta force to push it in.
Best of luck
2057
El Geffe
24-03-2011, 01:05
I glad this is deemed acceptable,:D because as TheOtherGuy said we did have some difficulty proving that several parts of our minibot were legal, including this exact light switch and some non-slip pad we usually use as tire tread.
it does take a lotta force to push it in.
Really? We didn't have any trouble pushing it in. In fact' we hit the top so hard once it bust the switch right out of the plastic casing.
Instead of using a switch, we just used 5A fuses on the minibot - it's a bit of a pain to switch them each time (they blow as soon as the motors try to drive through the top of the pole), but we don't have to deal with any... switch :D
TheOtherGuy
24-03-2011, 13:03
Instead of using a switch, we just used 5A fuses on the minibot - it's a bit of a pain to switch them each time (they blow as soon as the motors try to drive through the top of the pole), but we don't have to deal with any... switch :D
How long would it take for a 5 amp auto-reset fuse to reset? I wonder if that's a possible solution to ensuring the tower is triggered...
EDIT: then again, it needs to be an equivalent type fuse to the Tetrix one. Oh well...
good find, and good post. will certainly help some teams. Any idea how much force is needed to push the switch on/off? :) :)
PayneTrain
25-03-2011, 19:17
I can't speak for the team truthfully, but 88 appeared to be using that exact switch on their minibot in Baltimore.
If you are a direct drive under 5 pounds, you should be dandy.
Steve_Alaniz
25-03-2011, 23:18
Instead of using a switch, we just used 5A fuses on the minibot - it's a bit of a pain to switch them each time (they blow as soon as the motors try to drive through the top of the pole), but we don't have to deal with any... switch :D
Wow! What a great idea! Way to think out of the box!
Steve
In Seattle and Portland similar switches were/are on many minibots. That passed inspection w/o issues.
There was a team that had a universal headlight switch (along with some resistors) but we got that changed before inspection.
PingPongPerson
26-03-2011, 23:01
We argued for about an hour or two with inspectors about what the definition of "common household lightswitch" is, and it appears that as long as the switch is sold as a light switch, and can handle 125V at 6A, it is ok.
waitwhat?
27-03-2011, 18:17
This is the switch we use. There can be no way of not passing this switch during inspection. The switch actually has "limit switch" written right onto it. It works perfectly. A little pricey but gets the job done. This switch, once engaged, requires you manually reset it. Hence the name "manual reset safety limit switch". Here is the McMaster part number 7336K51
http://images2.mcmaster.com/Contents/gfx/small/7336kc1s.png?ver=1180392
Al Skierkiewicz
28-03-2011, 04:59
Michael,
The current and voltage rating is not included in the rules. Simply the switch must be marketed or labeled as a "light switch" to pass inspection.
Wait,
That is an expensive limit switch but a limit none the less. It should pass inspection.
waitwhat?
28-03-2011, 19:25
Michael,
The current and voltage rating is not included in the rules. Simply the switch must be marketed or labeled as a "light switch" to pass inspection.
Wait,
That is an expensive limit switch but a limit none the less. It should pass inspection.
Very expensive limit switch, but works like a charm. Wish I had a good video of it in action with the minibot.
feverittm
28-03-2011, 20:04
While I appreciate this discussion, the answer really is 'it depends'. We were in Portland this past weekend and the definition was "household wall light switch". And before I get a lot of flames, I did very heavily argue that the GDC ruled that the 'wall' portion was not necessary and that lamp switches were valid. I was in heated discussions with 5 different inspectors including the head inspector, and they said that "they were told be New Hampshire to only accept wall light switches or Tetrix switches", the limit switches were acceptable however.
We had to scramble to change out our 'lamp' switch and replace it with a Tetrix switch to pass inspection.
Like I said ... It depends on who, what, and where you talk.
Mike Betts
28-03-2011, 20:43
While I appreciate this discussion, the answer really is 'it depends'. We were in Portland this past weekend and the definition was "household wall light switch". And before I get a lot of flames, I did very heavily argue that the GDC ruled that the 'wall' portion was not necessary and that lamp switches were valid. I was in heated discussions with 5 different inspectors including the head inspector, and they said that "they were told be New Hampshire to only accept wall light switches or Tetrix switches", the limit switches were acceptable however.
We had to scramble to change out our 'lamp' switch and replace it with a Tetrix switch to pass inspection.
Like I said ... It depends on who, what, and where you talk.
Floyd,
You were/are "almost" correct. From Team Update #12:
A note about “light switches” permitted on the MINIBOT:
We have previously stated in the Q&A that “light switches” are only “light switches” if they are commonly used in a wall mounting box. Rule R92-N, however, uses the language “common household light switches”; which can have a much broader interpretation. Given the discrepancy in specificity between R92 and the Q&A statements, we defer to the manual. Therefore, “light switches” permitted on the MINIBOT are not confined to those used in wall mounting boxes; anything sold as a “light switch” for household use is allowed. The Q&A answers will be revised.
I note that in your post you said "lamp" not "light". Had you produced any documentation at all stating that the switch was marketed as a "light" switch (and I am quite sure that such exists), you should have been golden.
Now, regarding the "New Hampshire" statement, I'll let Big Al comment as I was not there. However, I did review the PowerPoint presentations and can assure you that there were both outright errors and also "eventual" errors (due to rules changes). I find it hard to believe that any LRI used that as a basis to rule on the legality of anything.
JMHO,
Mike
wilsonmw04
28-03-2011, 20:47
just to piggy-back on what Mike said, I will have a copy of update #12 with us when we go for inspection along with all our documentation on our "light" switches." Honestly, I think it would have been so much clearer if they had just stayed with the wall box definition.
Al Skierkiewicz
29-03-2011, 07:33
Floyd,
Can you add a picture here?
Mike,
Training came well before the Update. At training we had minibots in hand with the switches pre-update so everyone had a good idea on what we were discussing.
I can't speak for the team truthfully, but 88 appeared to be using that exact switch on their minibot in Baltimore.
If you are a direct drive under 5 pounds, you should be dandy.
Yes, team 88 uses the same toggling light switch (either from Home Depot or Lowe's). We can also confirm that it is possible to hit the top so hard that the switch mechanism is driven through the back of the switch housing. We added a bolt as a mechanical stop to prevent that from happening.
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