View Full Version : Wireless in pits
I know the rules say that we cant have wireless signals in the pits but I have a question.
Can I set up a router in my pit to help my iPad remotely connect to my laptop for scouting, or no?
I was planning on having it a protected wireless. The reason for doing this is because my laptop doesn't have the best battery and the scouting program i have isnt an app.
Or does anyone know of any programs like teamviewer that uses bluetooth instead of wireless internet?
Mike Betts
26-03-2011, 17:25
... Can I set up a router in my pit to help my iPad remotely connect to my laptop for scouting, or no? ...
No.
dang that is what i thought
anyone know if there is power outlets in the stands at the Williams regional in Minnesota?
alectronic
26-03-2011, 17:44
in general, most events do not promise/have power in the stands. especially if they are permanent stadium-style, mostly because there is no reason to have them there normally. (people wouldn't usually need power in the stands.)
so, i wouldn't count on it
bladetech932
26-03-2011, 18:17
I would get a dc to ac adapter for a FIRST battery to use it for an outlet in the stands.
we have an inverter does anyone know how well they work?
and dose anyone know how to remotely control a computer with Bluetooth?
dang that is what i thought
anyone know if there is power outlets in the stands at the Williams regional in Minnesota?
I have been at Williams since 2008 and I am willing to bet there are no outlets anywhere near the stands, inverters were used widely the past year when classmates were frequently dying due to lack of power at the drivers station. Take a spare Anderson connector attach a dc female plug to it and power away, or use alligator clips (though that is less safe).
Williams arena and the sports pavilion are fairly well covered in University of Minnesota Wi-fi which does have guest access, it is just a matter of whether or not it will interfere with the FRC control system and get turned off (though this did not occur last year) so there is a chance it will still be on. I am doubtful but it may be possible for you to connect through that network but I have a feeling both your Laptop and iPad would have to be connected to the same access point.
As for setting up your own wifi network, besides it being illegal, there is about a 1% chance you could receive a wireless signal from the sports pavilion (the pits) at Williams arena (the field)
As for bluetooth wouldn't you have the same issue of running out of battery since bluetooth has a range of 30 feet or so. If you want I can try to use a remote mouse program over wifi at the university of Minnesota (deliberately connecting to different wifi hotspots) with my phone sometime this week and see if it works.
thanks cause i found this program on cheifdelphi but its only for computers...
so my hope was to have my laptop charging at the pits and connected to the wifi and my ipad in the stands also connecting to wifi controlling it remotely via team viewer.
You may have issues with the U of M network as I am not sure how locked down the ports are. So if teamviewer goes out of the network to a central server then back in you may run into issues. If you can find something similar made for local networks you could have better results potentially.
Tommy F.
26-03-2011, 21:23
Along with wireless networks, I believe bluetooth has to be off as well.
In the game manual they ask for NXT's with bluetooth disabled for minibots, so if they ask bluetooth to be disabled for minibots, I don't think they'd want it enabled on your iPad either.
Alpha Beta
26-03-2011, 21:38
Along with wireless networks, I believe bluetooth has to be off as well.
In the game manual they ask for NXT's with bluetooth disabled for minibots, so if they ask bluetooth to be disabled for minibots, I don't think they'd want it enabled on your iPad either.
I thought they wanted BlueTooth disabled on the NXT because BlueTooth was allowed in other parts of the arena and they wanted to ensure that there would be no communication with the minibots from the stands. I haven't seen them asking people to remove their ear pieces which BlueTooth to the cell phone.
If I remember correctly the FMS system uses 5ghz wifi for control so that wouldn't make bluetooth a problem (being 2.4 ghz) but could make other 5ghz wifi networks cause issues.
4.4.1 Robot Wireless Control
Robots may be operated via wireless control only on the competition fields and the
practice field with the FIRST supplied radio; and
Teams are not allowed to set up their own 802.11a/b/g/n (2.4GHz or 5GHz) wireless
communication (access points or ad-hoc networks) in the venue
Devices used solely for the purpose of planning or tracking strategy of game play are
allowed inside the ALLIANCE STATION, if they meet ALL of the following conditions:
Do no include any form of enabled wireless electronic communication (e.g. radios,
walkie-talkies, cell phones, Bluetooth communications, WiFi, etc.)
This seems to imply that bluetooth may be okay, I believe I have seen volunteers with bluetooth earpieces in the past.
theprgramerdude
26-03-2011, 22:22
dang that is what i thought
anyone know if there is power outlets in the stands at the Williams regional in Minnesota?
No.
alectronic
26-03-2011, 23:23
This seems to imply that bluetooth may be okay, I believe I have seen volunteers with bluetooth earpieces in the past.
There is no restriction on bluetooth. Just Wifi.
Matt Krass
26-03-2011, 23:29
I know the rules say that we cant have wireless signals in the pits but I have a question.
Can I set up a router in my pit to help my iPad remotely connect to my laptop for scouting, or no?
I know you already got your answer, but this is something that seems to be very common lately, and I wanted to call attention to it.
It's kind of frustrating to see posts in the form of "I know this is against the rules, but can I do it anyway?". It's frustrating to everyone who has to answer and tell you "no, you can't do it" and I'd bet it's frustrating to you because I don't think you meant to ask that question.
To me, it seemed more like you wanted to know if you could achieve your goal while still being in compliance of the rules, in which case you should explain what you're trying to do, which rule(s) you think you're in conflict of, ask for confirmation and for suggestions how else to solve your problem. I think that will be much more happily received around here, and it's good practice, since you'll need to use the same technique to deal with your future bosses ;)
Just wanted to call attention to this and see if we can improve, I'm not calling you out all on your lonesome.
Matt
Adam Richards
27-03-2011, 01:27
I know you already got your answer, but this is something that seems to be very common lately, and I wanted to call attention to it.
It's kind of frustrating to see posts in the form of "I know this is against the rules, but can I do it anyway?". It's frustrating to everyone who has to answer and tell you "no, you can't do it" and I'd bet it's frustrating to you because I don't think you meant to ask that question.
To me, it seemed more like you wanted to know if you could achieve your goal while still being in compliance of the rules, in which case you should explain what you're trying to do, which rule(s) you think you're in conflict of, ask for confirmation and for suggestions how else to solve your problem. I think that will be much more happily received around here, and it's good practice, since you'll need to use the same technique to deal with your future bosses ;)
Just wanted to call attention to this and see if we can improve, I'm not calling you out all on your lonesome.
Matt
Time to argue and then finally agree with you Matt, since that's what we do best.
The rule restricting wireless in the pits has existed since before FIRST used the 2.4GHz spectrum for robots. It existed way back in the day when we used DB15 connectors for joysticks and radios operated on 900MHz. Back when the old radios were used and wireless connections weren't a huge feature for scoring, regionals had a bit more leeway in determining minutiae, and you probably could get away with a wireless network or two.
Nowadays, rogue wireless signals wreak havoc on the field equipment, to the point several competitions this year have had to contact the school they were hosting the regional and demand they turn off all wireless internet near the competition site (IIRC, there were something on the order of 60-80 wireless networks being broadcast at the FL regional alone before we had everything turned off).
To sum it up: let the robots work, don't use wireless.
Matt Krass
27-03-2011, 09:28
Time to argue and then finally agree with you Matt, since that's what we do best.
The rule restricting wireless in the pits has existed since before FIRST used the 2.4GHz spectrum for robots. It existed way back in the day when we used DB15 connectors for joysticks and radios operated on 900MHz. Back when the old radios were used and wireless connections weren't a huge feature for scoring, regionals had a bit more leeway in determining minutiae, and you probably could get away with a wireless network or two.
Nowadays, rogue wireless signals wreak havoc on the field equipment, to the point several competitions this year have had to contact the school they were hosting the regional and demand they turn off all wireless internet near the competition site (IIRC, there were something on the order of 60-80 wireless networks being broadcast at the FL regional alone before we had everything turned off).
To sum it up: let the robots work, don't use wireless.
No disagreement here, I understand the ruling. I was just pointing out the approach of the original poster was a bit frustrating because it really seems to come across somewhere between "I didn't read the rules" and "I read the rules, can I break them?" and I honestly don't think that was the intention. I was looking to raise awareness on how this could have been better phrased so that its not a problem in the future.
Matt
Michael Blake
27-03-2011, 18:19
I have no problem with this rule... excluding Wi-Fi routers from the pit areas because of possible affect on robots competing on the field... what I don't understand is the technical need for this... maybe someone here can help...
If too many Wi-Fi signals interfere with the FMS, shouldn't the Wi-Fi also be disabled on individual laptops (used to program robot in the pits) and smart-phones (in the pits and viewing stands)?
The Wi-FI signal on almost all laptops/smart phones turns on automatically, the way I understand it, and is broadcasting with no termination point until you select a router to send/receive with... but, even without a router to terminate to, the laptops and smart phones are sending a Wi-Fi signal out to the ether unless you disable the Wi-Fi hardware on-board...
Can someone more knowledgeable than me clear this up? THANKS! ;-)
Is there a way to make my laptop brocast a signal that my iPad could pick up. Or can I set up a wireless that not 2.4 or 5.0?
Also how are people allowed to do blue tooth scouting with wiu motes if it's against the rules?
Adam Richards
27-03-2011, 20:48
I have no problem with this rule... excluding Wi-Fi routers from the pit areas because of possible affect on robots competing on the field... what I don't understand is the technical need for this... maybe someone here can help...
If too many Wi-Fi signals interfere with the FMS, shouldn't the Wi-Fi also be disabled on individual laptops (used to program robot in the pits) and smart-phones (in the pits and viewing stands)?
The Wi-FI signal on almost all laptops/smart phones turns on automatically, the way I understand it, and is broadcasting with no termination point until you select a router to send/receive with... but, even without a router to terminate to, the laptops and smart phones are sending a Wi-Fi signal out to the ether unless you disable the Wi-Fi hardware on-board...
Can someone more knowledgeable than me clear this up? THANKS! ;-)I know at the FL regional, it was broadcast in the pits and in the stands that all wireless signals were required to be manually disabled. It took a little while, but eventually it was reduced from the 60+ down to 3 wireless ad hoc signals (probably people that had no idea their phones or laptops were configured like that).
Even though its a little more complicated than this, wireless modems were really not designed to deal with more than 11-15 different access points in an area (one per channel), or you begin to deal with connection reliability issues, low speeds, etc. Ideally, you shouldn't even set routers on consecutive channels, to reduce interference. As a result, most commercially available routers default to channels 1, 7, and 11. Keeping in mind a FTA would know better than me, the main issues I saw encountered were wireless connection issues due to signal interference and an inability to find the correct network, since the FIRST networks were dropping to the bottom of the list. They did try to override all the signals by attaching more powerful antennae to a pole directly pointing at the field, but it didn't solve many issues.
Is there a way to make my laptop brocast a signal that my iPad could pick up. Or can I set up a wireless that not 2.4 or 5.0?
Also how are people allowed to do blue tooth scouting with wiu motes if it's against the rules?
There is nothing against bluetooth except when you are at the field competing (to prevent extra communication with the robot/minibot/people outside of the drivers and coach).
As for broadcasting a signal your iPad could pick up, it is unlikely from the pits. Williams arena alone has 13 enterprise grade access points around it, and the coverage still has room for improvement. One access point barely provides coverage over the pits, when you factor in going through walls you have a slim chance of it working out. I will check out using their guest network tomorrow or tuesday to see if that would work for team viewer but there are no guarantees that this network will even be running because of possible interference.
On the guest network neither my phone nor my laptop could attain a secure connection to the teamview server. With my laptop on the U of MN Secure network and my phone on 3G I was able to connect to it. So for this to work (provided the wireless stays up) you would have to find someone who has a U of MN account and would let you borrow it (perhaps a former team member)
Dancin103
29-03-2011, 14:25
The issue at hand for regionals hosted at colleges and universities this year has been the number of access points. The more there are the more trouble there is for robots connecting to the field. There were serious issues up at Finger Lakes and serious issues at the Florida regional. For both regionals, Thursday's practice matches were a mess and on hold for an upwards of 4 to 6 hours. (Florida was at least 10 to 2 or 3). Please follow the Wi-Fi rules and don't create a problem, I thank you in advance!
Cass
On the guest network neither my phone nor my laptop could attain a secure connection to the teamview server. With my laptop on the U of MN Secure network and my phone on 3G I was able to connect to it. So for this to work (provided the wireless stays up) you would have to find someone who has a U of MN account and would let you borrow it (perhaps a former team member)
I wouldn't count on the U of MN wireless network staying up around Mariucci or Williams.
I wouldn't count on the U of MN wireless network staying up around Mariucci or Williams.
Yep, I forgot to include it in that post but I said it in prior posts when I was going to check it out.
The past 3 years the network has stayed up so I am hoping that it doesn't cause issues again this year, or that they can at least keep it on in the pits in williams (due to the separation)
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