Michigan State Championship

[Clinton Bolinger]

This show just makes the Michigan District Format that much better: for less money, you get two events, a state championship, and a professional-quality television broadcast.

For a regional, you pay more, and just get ten matches + elims.

I am so jealous :)

The team fees did not pay for the broadcast, that was sponsored by General Motors.

-Clinton-

[fireyoshi]

The team fees did not pay for the broadcast, that was sponsored by General Motors.

-Clinton-

I know, but this is the cherry on top of the cake of awesomeness that is the district model. I wish FIRST invested in making television broadcasts of the elims from a handful of regionals with production qualities as high as this telecast.

[Basel A]

The team fees did not pay for the broadcast, that was sponsored by General Motors.

-Clinton-

Reason #2337 of Why We Love General Motors.

[Richard Wallace]

The team fees did not pay for the broadcast, that was sponsored by General Motors.

-Clinton-FIRST is built on a three-part foundation of commitment -- by sponsors, by volunteers, and by teams. By magic, each part receives a substantial return on what it commits to the goal of changing our culture.

By moving here and continuing my own commitment (in each of those parts), I have learned that the FIRST sponsors, volunteers, and teams in Michigan work to a very high standard of excellence. The FIM system is far from perfect -- but as Karthik likes to say (quoting Vince Lombardi), it is by relentless chasing perfection that we catch excellence.

[Andy Grady]

That broadcast should set the standard for any FIRST event on TV. I wish they could do one of these for every regional...exact same format. Fantastic stuff.

[Debbie]

as Karthik likes to say (quoting Vince Lombardi), it is by relentless chasing perfection that we catch excellence.

I really love that quote!!

[MishraArtificer]

This show just makes the Michigan District Format that much better: for less money, you get two events, a state championship, and a professional-quality television broadcast.

For a regional, you pay more, and just get ten matches + elims.

I am so jealous :)Don't be.

Anyone see any international teams at MSC this year? Chilean Heart, maybe?

How about out-of-state?

Anyone?

[nikeairmancurry]

Don't be.

Anyone see any international teams at MSC this year? Chilean Heart, maybe?

How about out-of-state?

Anyone?

I agree I do miss this aspect of GLR.. But I do love the higher competition that was the MSC.. Probably the most intense event I've ever been apart of..

[David Dawson]

Don't be.

Anyone see any international teams at MSC this year? Chilean Heart, maybe?

How about out-of-state?

Anyone?

How many no shows were on the field at the MSC? How many working mini bots were at the MSC? And I think we may have had a couple power house teams somewhere at the venue. The GLR is still here the difference is teams are simply better when they get there.

[Karibou]

Don't be.

Anyone see any international teams at MSC this year? Chilean Heart, maybe?

How about out-of-state?

Anyone?

That is the only thing that I don't like, and never have liked, about the district system. I do understand why it's limited to MI teams and will never ask them to change it. However, I still miss seeing teams that aren't from the MI family and think that the teams who don't make it to CMP or can't afford to go to an out-of-state event miss out on part of the FIRST experience.

[nikeairmancurry]

But this system really has helped me make more friends inside of the state of michigan.. I've gotten to know the refs and many of the people behind the scenes that make michigan what it is... Plus you get to see your instate friends a lot building on those friends.. I'd say without this district model, I wouldn't be as close to members of 67,503,308 and others.. Plus getting to see people like Paul from 217, or Jim from 33 and many others... And think of it this way, we have people watching us! Andy Baker and Karthik and Dan Green, travel hunderds of miles to see this event... There is no shortage of outside travelers.. You just have to look sometimes..

[PayneTrain]

As an original detractor to the Michigan system, I feel like I've become a massive supporter of the program in the least two years. The system fosters positive growth unlike any other program.

You market the program as a two for the price of one FIRST competition. Teams get their KOP and two events for the same price a rookie pays for one regional. With the closed system, the compulsory registration in FiM events makes Michigan teams stay in Michigan, not taking sponsor's money out of the state. GM isn't as much of a sponsor in, say, eastern Virginia than they are in Michigan.

The delineations of the districts helps FiM send mentors with years of experience around to float among veteran and rookie teams, to create intrastate collaboration.

The state competition pits the best teams against the best teams, providing competition that is apparently worthy of statewide network television.

Sure, teams from as close as Northern Illinois or as far away as South America can't participate in FiM, but if other states and regions wised up into the district model, maybe teams could participate in interstate district competitions.

The only complaint of FiM is its walled garden approach to FIRST. Funny thing is, that's a big complaint a lot of people can make about Apple.

Sure, it sucks that there is no interstate competition. However, approach the idea of FiM the way a team approaches a design for the robot: pros v. cons. It's hard to convince me that expensive events that don't foster the kind of growth FiM does are better simply because they allow non-local teams to enter.

[MishraArtificer]

(snip)The system fosters positive growth unlike any other program. (snip)With the closed system, the compulsory registration in FiM events makes Michigan teams stay in Michigan(snip)Makes teams stay in one location, forcing them to play the same teams again and again, day after day after day, year after year after year. Doctors call that growth malignant. Or worse, inbreeding.
The delineations of the districts helps FiM send mentors with years of experience around to float among veteran and rookie teams, to create intrastate collaboration.One of the high points that I have no objections to.

The state competition pits the best teams (in the state) against the best teams (in the state), providing competition that is apparently worthy of (only) statewide network television.Fixed.
Sure, teams from as close as Northern Illinois or as far away as South America can't participate in FiM, but if other states and regions wised up into the district model, maybe teams could participate in interstate district competitions.How? As the rules stand, only competitions in the team's home state count for anything. Which brings up another point raised when FiM was first put in place: many border teams have competitions outside the state that are closer that the competitions inside the state. What to do?
The only complaint of FiM is its walled garden approach to FIRST. Funny thing is, that's a big complaint a lot of people can make about Apple.Funnier thing is, that's a big complaint a lot of people DO make about Apple. Hence, the creation of Boot Camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Camp_%28software%29).

Sure, it sucks that there is no interstate competition. However, approach the idea of FiM the way a team approaches a design for the robot: pros v. cons. It's hard to convince me that expensive events that don't foster the kind of growth FiM does are better simply because they allow non-local teams to enter. How do you change the culture of the world when, by your own rules, they can't come to you and you can't go to them?

Also, imagine this conversation. It's not hard to envision...

A:"Where's your team from?"

B:"Alpena."

A:"Oh...my family goes hunting there every fall...meh."


Now imagine this conversation...

A:"Where's your team from?"

B:"Sao Paulo."

A:"WOW! I've never been there before! Is there rainforest near where you live? How about....(insert local trivia here)"

Until FiM, this was possible, and if you replace "Sao Paulo" with "Canada" it happened A LOT!

P.S.:It was after midnight (local time) when I posted this. PayneTrain, feel free to vivisect this post to your heart's content. I'd like to see the results.

[nikeairmancurry]

Questions for you Jeremy Marr,

Were you at the State Championship? The level of competition is something that you can not duplicate anywhere else in the country during the 6 week regional period! It's a great way to get exposure to FIRST without presenting a boring set of matches where the only 1/3 of the robots are functioning well and the number 1 and 2 seeds always play for the win. Looking back at past events like Great Lakes, Detroit and West Michigan, yes we saw out of state/country teams, but only about 5% of those 3 events had teams not from michigan. So really we gave those spots to michigan teams so they could play closer to home.

Yes there are downfalls to the system. But there are solutions. Before the district model, most teams spent 10k to do 2 events and most teams did 2 out of the 3 michigan events or did GLR and something else, (unless west coast or UP michigan team). But those teams whom went out of state met other teams and were able to build those relationships. Or when going to Championships they were able to do the same thing. But with the district model you can play your two events for 5k and still go out of state! Many teams choose to do this! 1528 and 217 went to Finger lakes, 245 went to Alamo, i think it was 288 and its two sister teams went to Waterloo and another out of state competition. Also there are numerous off season events to attend to also get this feeling of meeting new teams. IRI or MARC or Kettering, which all get out of state attention. Don't limit yourself to the regular season!

Yes, travel for some teams is painful for the UP teams and some other northern michigan teams, but solutions are in the works. The west side of the state now has two districts (Niles and Grandvalley) and there are talks about a district event in the UP. Which by all means would almost kill any discussion about border teams(other than states, which teams from the UP have come down to do, for them its a chance to met people really from another state). It just takes time to get it right and in 3 years it has come a long way and will continue to get better.

Also like I stated in previous post the district system helps build relationships with local teams and help promote cooperation within the state to bring up the level of every team as a whole. I can't tell you how many new teams were started in the last few years because of this district model and how well veteran teams have been the first to help get them going. Under the old system you couldn't do this as well because a one and done deal hurt retention percentages. Rookies came into big events usually not having a complete robot and didn't get a chance to do anything. But with this district model the help you would recieve during a normal district event can be translated into your 2nd event. I know my team comes into our first event with a lot of questions and sometimes it takes all our first event to iron them out and to learn from them. A rookie team under the old system usually had one shot to figure that out and was done for the year. Why do you think we've seen such a dramatic increase in teams the last 2 seasons.

This systems negatives are highly outweighed by the positives. Michigan did the right thing in moving to this model and being someone whom was here for 3 years of the old way and 3 years of the new way and much rather keep things district style, and i bet you there are numerous teams whom agree with this. I can live without meeting new people, but thats not true, new people and teams are exposed each year, so I really am always meeting new people.

Dean wants FIRST to be a varisty sport in every highschool across the country and into many other countries and so far the best way we've seen this happen is to break a state into districts (like all highschool sports!), and show people you can play this game in a highschool gym! FiM is doing it right.

A note on my like all highschool sports comment, in highschool did your football team always play out of state or around your school? I know mine played around the district. But I know if they wanted to they could schudule a out of state matchup if they wanted to. So really FiM is turning robotics into a highschool varisty sport!

Jeremy if you want to continue this type of discussion off the boards feel free to PM me.
/rant

[PayneTrain]

Makes teams stay in one location, forcing them to play the same teams again and again, day after day after day, year after year after year. Doctors call that growth malignant. Or worse, inbreeding.


Example: at the Virginia Regional this year, there were 64 teams. This, to my knowledge, makes it the EDIT: SECOND largest regional in the country, since MSC is not a regional, perse. (Ends up making a good comparison with MSC anyway, with 64 teams in each) 56 of the teams were in-state. Of the remaining 8, two returned from the year before, and two are lumped into the "Capital Region" of FRC. Dozens of teams overlap between the MD, DC, and VA regionals. Multiple teams from Michigan left to attend a totally optional and allowable Regional: Finger Lakes (This includes 1528, an FRC team based in the town of Monroe, MI. I assume you live near them...)

Go to championships once every four years. Go to an offseason event. The border police won't stop you there.

I think it would be sensible for FiM to allow teams within 30 miles of a district event but not in Michigan to be put on a waiting list for a district competition.

As the rules stand, only competitions in the team's home state count for anything. Which brings up another point raised when FiM was first put in place: many border teams have competitions outside the state that are closer that the competitions inside the state. What to do?

As it stands, only Michigan has adopted the district model. Minnesota, Texas, and California are primed for it. If the adoption would be handled by FIRST, the rules could be changed. (Regional Committees apparently don't communicate with each other or maybe there were other conflicts, but the North Carolina Regional was held the same weekend as the VA regional. What? Maybe FIRST should conduct itself like any national organization would. Acting like the NCAA, guide the regional committees to form conferences: the Pacific Northwest Conference of Oregon, Washington and Western Canada, or the MidSouth conference of North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia, or the... you get the point)

Funnier thing is, that's a big complaint a lot of people DO make about Apple. Hence, the creation of Boot Camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Camp_%28software%29).
The point I was making is that, sure, it's an unpopular move, but people buy their products and their stock is constantly on the rise. Whether you like it or not, people buy into the Apple system. Likewise, people are starting to buy into the FiM system.

How do you change the culture of the world when, by your own rules, they can't come to you and you can't go to them?

If you are trying to change the culture of FIRST among other FIRST teams in only three days at a regional, God bless you. Teams gravitate towards local teams. At the Virginia Regional, a Virginia Team has won the Chairmans Award 8 out of the last 10 years. The change is happening in-state already.

The district model can be adjusted for low team density states to have their own district, go to a regional championship, and be able to take that experience back home, and replicate in 5 years to wall off the state for intrastate competition.

If you feel like there is a lot of value to be had in Michigan returning to the regional model, feel free to PM me. I don't want this thread to get too heated like some threads have lately. :D

[Koko Ed]

Example: at the Virginia Regional this year, there were 64 teams. This, to my knowledge, makes it the largest regional in the country, since MSC is not a regional, perse.
New York City is the largest regional with 66 teams.

[Chris Hibner]

A:"Where's your team from?"

B:"Alpena."

A:"Oh...my family goes hunting there every fall...meh."

Sorry for the tangent, but I WISH there was a team from Alpena.

That's where I grew up, and they could really benefit from a team.

[PayneTrain]

New York City is the largest regional with 66 teams.

I corrected it. I knew it, but there are some things that will slip at 2 in the morning.

[Craig Roys]

I know it's been said, but I'll reiterate...MI teams can go to other regionals outside of MI where they might meet teams from anywhere - there are a lot of relatively close ones (Midwest, Boilermaker, Buckeye, Finger Lakes, Waterloo, Toronto, etc.). I do miss having other teams come to events in MI, but I believe the positives of FiM outweigh the negatives as was mentioned earlier.

I think the biggest thing you can take from the FiM model is that a district event can be run for MUCH less money - you don't necessarily need high team density; however, you do need a team of dedicated volunteers. It's going to be very difficult to continue to grow FIRST if something isn't done to make it more affordable. I believe one of the few reasons that MI has been able to grow to the number of teams it has is due to the affordability of the FiM model.

[Steve Ketron]

Makes teams stay in one location, forcing them to play the same teams again and again, day after day after day, year after year after year. Doctors call that growth malignant. Or worse, inbreeding.

One of the great things about the district events is the availability to still travel and see teams that you normally won't see. Yes they are all Michigan teams but it is still meeting new people and teams normally not available to you.

I know money is tight in these hard times and overnight travel is difficult for some teams. That is why there are multiple districts around the Detroit area for the majority of those teams to get there two events without spending money much needed for other items. This does not mean that you have to go to those events though.

I think the overnight experience is worth the cost for all the hard work my students put into the program throughout the year. The students enjoy the fact that we go someplace overnight and have a great time while we are out of town. If you carefully manage your travelling cost, then your team can do overnights in Michigan. Niles had like 6 empty slots. For 2 nights and 9 rooms (not the greatest of rooms but what do you actually do there) my team paid roughly $1000 total for rooms and gas. We met some very nice teams from the westcoast and we plan on going back next year. If your team is interested in attending this event have your mentors contact me. I most likely can help with these things.

[Craig Roys]

I think the overnight experience is worth the cost for all the hard work my students put into the program throughout the year. The students enjoy the fact that we go someplace overnight and have a great time while we are out of town. If you carefully manage your travelling cost, then your team can do overnights in Michigan.

We do the same thing - one event local on the East side of the state and one overnight (usually W. MI). The team really enjoys the overnight experience; plus we get to see other MI teams we might not otherwise interact with (85, 107, 1918, 2000, and 2054 to name only a few) if we did both local.

[J_Miles]

As posters have said before, it's important to remember to compare the pros with the cons. There are over 170 FIRST Robotics Teams in the state of Michigan alone, plenty for students to meet all sorts of great people and teams that they never knew before. The District System also dramatically lowers the price of competing in FRC, and this price point is much more conducive to rookie startups than is the regional expense.

Plus, the opportunity to meet teams from all over the place is a perk of going to the Championship event, then, right? If your team travels to CMP, based either on qualification or on registration, it becomes a big event, especially if your team doesn't go every year. I know that, for me, going to CMP for the first time was extremely exciting, because I actually had the opportunity to meet teams from elsewhere.

Also, I ask if moving away from the district system really would, in fact, dramatically increase the number of teams from out of state that any given Michigan team would be in contact with. The Michigan regionals would still be overwhelmingly composed of Michigan teams, because all of the other "local" regionals would continue to exist. Sure, there would be some flow out of the Michigan regionals into other local regionals, and sure some teams from local regionals would choose to compete in Michigan, but I doubt it would be dramatic.

All-in-all, having never experienced anything other than the District system, I suppose I'm probably biased, though I can't imagine the system being any other way. Plus, the competition at Michigan District Competitions is world class, and the district system, in this way, acts as a catalyst for the formation of dozens of brilliant new rookie teams, many of whom compete on par with veteran teams. You don't often see that to the same extent elsewhere.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Another great thing about the MI system is the fact that each district event is limited to 40 teams. This gives a greater percentage of the participants a chance to play on Saturday afternoon - and they get two chances at eliminations for the price of one.

2008 (the last year before MI districts) was our low point. Our entire season consisted of 8 matches, and our manipulator was broken for 4 of them. In 2009 we played in about 45 matches at 3 districts for less money. And we got to meet a lot more people than we did in 2008, too.

[MishraArtificer]

Wow...wasn't expecting responses like these. I honestly thought I would just get flamed. I shall attempt to respond to your arguments later (when my brainpower regenerates), if no one has any objections?

[J_Miles]

Wow...wasn't expecting responses like these. I honestly thought I would just get flamed. I shall attempt to respond to your arguments later (when my brainpower regenerates), if no one has any objections?

The beautiful thing about FIRST is that we're all friends here. And Chief Delphi is, usually, free from those who would flame...at least relative to just about anywhere else on the internet.

No, your argument does have merit to an extent; however, I think overwhelming sentiment does not echo yours. As the District system gets older and more experienced, I think even more of those who still doubt it will warm up to the idea.

[MishraArtificer]

The beautiful thing about FIRST is that we're all friends here. And Chief Delphi is, usually, free from those who would flame...at least relative to just about anywhere else on the internet....and that's one of the main reasons why I've stuck around so long, long after I've had regular hours spent with the team. Decent people (on or off the interwebz) are not easily found, in my life so far.

No, your argument does have merit to an extent; however, I think overwhelming sentiment does not echo yours. As the District system gets older and more experienced, I think even more of those who still doubt it will warm up to the idea....and here's where I may come off sounding rather hypocritical, but what the hey:I do not believe that FIRST in Michigan was necessarily bad.

Simply put: FiM was an experiment, to see if there was a better way to run the competitions than the old regional standard that had been in place for over fifteen years. Everyone involved in the regionals knew the system had its flaws, and took steps to recognize that fact by creating a different setup with different rules and regulations.

HOWEVER, they also knew this new system would have unforeseen flaws (and detractors). With that in mind, they chose to limit their new district model to one local region, choosing Michigan likely due to the power and insanity coming out of the old Great Lakes Regional, as well as the base strength of Michigan teams in general.

It's still fairly new. It is definitely different than what we've been used to. I may come across as a crotchety old coot sometimes, but I ask you to keep this fact in mind: My final year as a student with my team was 2007, before FiM hit the streets. I therefore do not have a first hand account of all of the ramifications that FiM has brought with it.

I admit the regional system has its flaws. I also admit that the new district system has ITS flaws. I simply feel that the district system is not a BETTER direction for FIRST competition, merely a DIFFERENT one.

That said, one thing I WOULD suggest, before spreading the district model all over the country: keep it local. Spread it to neighboring states (Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin, maybe even nearby provinces in Canada), and try out new rules on interstate competitions. The main reason that you don't see many MI teams in regionals outside MI is even if they can afford to go, what's the point? They do not add points for qualifying for Championships in...wherever they decide to hold them from here on out. So they don't bother. If they could spread the district system around a little bit at a time, they could find ways to rewrite the scoring rules to make traveling out of the state for a competition mean something again. (Please note that I do not count Championships here, as this statement does not apply to the endgame. Especially since for Michigan teams, that's the only out of state comp. that they're allowed to actually compete in. Sure, some teams went to Finger Lakes, but the way the scoring system works here, all they would be are placeholders keeping other teams out who may have NEEDED those points to qualify for Championships.)

[Basel A]

I have only two points to make, neither are about your argument because I think my beliefs have been well-covered.

1. MI teams may or may not be allowed to compete at the CMP based on results of an out-of-state event. The fact is, it's never been tested. Any team that has ever qualified out of state either pre-registered (141 this year, EI in MN) or qualified in-state as well (217 pre-regged and would have qualified by points anyway). There may be a rule, but I don't know what it is and it's never been used.

2. This is simply not the right place for this discussion. Please start a new thread.

P.S. Okay, I just had to add.. The best part about the district model is arguably the cheap events. District competitions are extremely cheap to put on (as low as $10k). Doing events like these means you could have so many more regionals, which in turns makes going to a regional cheaper (HQ gets more registration fees paid, so they need few $ per fee). Maybe I'm just obsessed with the idea, but it would bring the best of MI (more events, less $) without bringing most of the issues people dislike.

[MishraArtificer]

Don't be.

Anyone see any international teams at MSC this year? Chilean Heart, maybe?

How about out-of-state?

Anyone?I would like to apologize for so severely derailing this thread with ONE post. This...was not the result I expected.
I have only two points to make, neither are about your argument because I think my beliefs have been well-covered.

1. MI teams may or may not be allowed to compete at the CMP based on results of an out-of-state event. The fact is, it's never been tested. Any team that has ever qualified out of state either pre-registered (141 this year, EI in MN) or qualified in-state as well (217 pre-regged and would have qualified by points anyway). There may be a rule, but I don't know what it is and it's never been used.

2. This is simply not the right place for this discussion. Please start a new thread.1. I cannot wait to see this get tested in the near future. It may make or break the district system permanently.

2. Agreed. Can we get a mod to move or copy the related posts to a new thread, please? This is too good a topic and discussion to simply let it slip through the cracks.

[PayneTrain]

In general defense at this late/early hour, it was abroadly-titled thread created to answer a question a member had. The thread probably should have been moved to the FiM subforum from the start. In the offseason it would be wise to have a massive discussion on FiM's model phasing in. Right now its hard to get a solid, star studded discussion going on. The Karthiks an Andys of the world are focused on CMP right now.