Herding

[Don Wright]

So... Maybe I'm confused about what constitutes herding.

According to the rule definition:

HERDING – controlling the movement of a GAME PIECE. A GAME PIECE shall be considered HERDED if it is in contact with the floor and, as the ROBOT moves in the direction of the GAME PIECE, the GAME PIECE is pushed in the same direction in a controlled manner, but does not remain in the position relative to the ROBOT if the ROBOT changes direction or orientation.

However, I have heard of calls against teams when they were carrying a tube and pushed another tube on the ground, they got a herding penalty. Even here, in this video, the team is holding a tube on the ground and push another one and they get a herding penalty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edHeQ3F8wHg

In my opinion, this isn't herding because if they turn the robot, the tube would NOT stay in the same orientation to the robot per the rule definition:

...but does not remain in the position relative to the ROBOT if the ROBOT changes direction or orientation.

So, if this is not herding, whats the best way to try and convey this to the refs at an event? Ask a question during the driver's meeting?

[Drivencrazy]

Yeah its been called some places and not others. In my opinion this could be a penalty depending on whether or not the pushing of the second game piece is deemed intentional or not.

The blue box explanation in regards to rule <G34> reads

It is important to design your ROBOT so that it is impossible to inadvertently or intentionally control more than one GAME PIECE at a time. Inadvertent contact will be not be considered HERDING and will not be penalized.

Do they expect us to make a plow on the front of our robot to deflect tubes away? That's rediculous. The only way I would see them calling this is if a team has possesion of a game piece and deliberately pushes another logo piece towards their grid in order to hang the next piece right after they place the first.

I think bringing it up in the driver's meeting would be a good idea and ask them what their interpretation of the rule is.

[thefro526]

It seems that the robot in question was possessing a Red Triangle, then proceeded to herd the White Circle into the red scoring zone which is a violation of G34:


<G34> ROBOTS or HOSTBOTS may only POSSESS or HERD one GAME PIECE at a time.
Violation: PENALTY

The Red Triangle was Clearly in possession as it stayed relative to the robot while turning and moving in reverse. Also, the White Circle is clearly being herded, or at least according to the definition of the rule, and it seems that the team was making a conscious effort to herd the white circle into the home zone (They hit the tube multiple times, even reorienting their robot slightly to ensure that the tube did not get pushed into the blue lane by mistake).

Looks like a pretty good call to me.

[Jared Russell]

Don,

The bolded excerpt of the rule that you cite makes me think that there might be some confusion here. The qualification that the tube "...does not remain in the position relative to the ROBOT if the ROBOT changes direction or orientation" is present to help distinguish HERDING from POSSESSION.

If you are pushing a tube along the ground, and when the robot backs up or spins in place, the tube stays put, you are HERDING while you are pushing the tube.

If you are pushing a tube along the ground, and when the robot backs up or spins in place, the tube comes with you, you are in POSSESSION of that tube.

By rule, I believe that a penalty for violating <G34> is appropriate in this situation - the robot is POSSESSING one tube while HERDING another.

[Joe Ross]

In my opinion, this isn't herding because if they turn the robot, the tube would NOT stay in the same orientation to the robot per the rule definition:

...but does not remain in the position relative to the ROBOT if the ROBOT changes direction or orientation.

So, if this is not herding, whats the best way to try and convey this to the refs at an event? Ask a question during the driver's meeting?

My reading is that the "but does not" phrase distinguishes between herding and possessing. If it's possessed, it stays in the same orientation. If it's herding, it does not stay in the same orientation. As Dustin pointed out, <G34> does not differentiate between them.

[Don Wright]

Ahh... Yes, I can see how I was reading that different.

I was differentiating possession as not on the ground, but if on the ground and moved in a controlled manner it was herded.

For example, in the video, I believed the red tube is herded (but not possessed), but the white tube was just pushed.

Thanks for the clarification...

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Don,
Traingles and squares are infinitely more susceptible to "herding" because of their straight sides. Some teams will inadvertently push a tube along without realizing it if the robot upper structure is blocking their vision.

[jvriezen]

For example, in the video, I believed the red tube is herded (but not possessed), but the white tube was just pushed.



I believe the RED tube is being POSSESSED. The tube touching (or not touching) the floor is irrelevant to the definition of possession.

The white tube was herded, as described in earlier posts.


John Vriezen
Team 2530 "Inconceivable"
Mentor, Drive Coach, Inspector

[Jimmy Cao]

I think the part that most defines herding as opposed to not herding is ...As the ROBOT moves in the direction of the GAME PIECE, the GAME PIECE is pushed in the same direction in a controlled manner

However, the word "controlled" is not clearly defined. If the robot were to suddenly stop and the tube continues to move for 6" before friction brings it to a halt, is it "controlled"?


...And it seems that the team was making a conscious effort to herd the white circle into the home zone (They hit the tube multiple times, even reorienting their robot slightly to ensure that the tube did not get pushed into the blue lane by mistake).

As I see it, the fact that they had to reorient their robot to ensure the tube did not end up in the blue lane provides fuel for the argument that the tube was not pushed in a "controlled" manner. No part of the definition of HERDING or rule G34 prohibits conscious efforts to affect the position of multiple tubes, so long as at most one of the tubes being affected is being possessed or herded.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I forgot to add that the robot in Don's link is actually pushing a tube towards their alliance station knowing full well they already have a tube in their possession.

[MikeE]

Almost any intentional movement of a tube while possessing another appears to violate <G34> but from my observation of matches it's being called only when there appears to be intent to gain an advantage by herding, and even then it's only called some times.

For example, if a robot in possesion of a tube were to deliberately push a tube sideways to clear a path to their zone then by <G34> it is probably a penalty, but I wouldn't expect it to be called. However if a team are pushing the tube into their scoring zone while possessing another then I would expect it to be called (although in practice it doesn't seem to be called as often as I expect).