Team Update #21

[GaryVoshol]

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2011_Assets/Team_Updates/Team%20Update%2021.pdf

Nothing new, just a reiteration of the Q&A about allowable devices during Alliance selection.

[synth3tk]

So does this mean that regionals can't stop teams from using their iPlaid machine for alliance selection, or is it still "house rules"?

[Kims Robot]

So does this mean that regionals can't stop teams from using their iPlaid machine for alliance selection, or is it still "house rules"?

I would assume if you could hand a copy of the team update to the head ref, it would be allowed. However as always, head ref's have the final say, so technically they can overrule it, but I doubt any would overrule a team update.

[jblay]

Does this mean you can take a phone onto the field for alliance selections and have a conversation with the people in the stands?

[Alex Cormier]

I would assume if you could hand a copy of the team update to the head ref, it would be allowed. However as always, head ref's have the final say, so technically they can overrule it, but I doubt any would overrule a team update.

It should not have to come down to a team update. I never saw a rule against it and there should have never been any regionals not allowing it.

[thefro526]

Does this mean you can take a phone onto the field for alliance selections and have a conversation with the people in the stands?

“There are no rules that prohibit laptops or team collaboration during the alliance selection process.
These methods are permitted, however the team is expected to make quick and expeditious
decisions in the interest of keeping the process moving.”

I believe that Phones are allowed, or at least if you said that you were collaborating with your team members - which you would be.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Does this mean you can take a phone onto the field for alliance selections and have a conversation with the people in the stands?

<T25> and <T26> would seem to disallow this

<T25> The only equipment that may be brought on to the ARENA is the OPERATOR CONSOLE, reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for the TEAM, are prohibited.

<T26> Devices used solely for the purpose of planning or tracking strategy of game play are allowed inside the ALLIANCE STATION, if they meet ALL of the following conditions:
 Do not connect or attach to the OPERATOR CONSOLE
 Do not connect or attach to the FIELD or ARENA
 Do not connect or attach to another ALLIANCE member
 Do not communicate with anything or anyone outside of the ARENA.
 Do no include any form of enabled wireless electronic communication (e.g. radios, walkie-talkies, cell phones, Bluetooth communications, WiFi, etc.)
 Do not in any way affect the outcome of a MATCH, other than by allowing TEAM members to plan or track strategy for the purposes of communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members.

Emphisis mine.

[Mark McLeod]

I think those rules apply to matches and game play, not to alliance selection.
No one is inside the Alliance Station.

[pfreivald]

Well, at least the Magic 8 Ball is safe...

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I think those rules apply to matches and game play, not to alliance selection.
No one is inside the Alliance Station.

Please state where in the rules that alliance selection is not included.

ARENA - all elements of the game infrastructure that are required to play LogoMotion: the FIELD, the ALLIANCE STATIONS, the GAME PIECES, and all supporting communications, arena control, and scorekeeping equipment.
Just because you aren't playing the game doesn't exclude you from being on an element required to play the game.

Again, Emphisis mine.

[J_Miles]

I think those rules apply to matches and game play, not to alliance selection.
No one is inside the Alliance Station.

This is my feeling, as well. At all of our competitions, our team representative has carried an iPad and/or laptop onto the field during alliance selections, devices which carry our aggregated scouting data to help expedite and streamline the selection process for our team. To my knowledge, we have had no problems with event officials refusing to allow these devices on the field.

[AdamHeard]

Please state where in the rules that alliance selection is not included.


Please state where in the rules that alliance selection is included.

[Bob Steele]

<T25> and <T26> would seem to disallow this



Emphisis mine.

By your logic... no one could bring a microphone into the arena... or rollerblades... etc etc... it does not SAY this pertains only to the TEAMS.

It might be necessary to just use common sense... and past practice..
and the update information

[GaryVoshol]

If all the Game rules apply to Alliance Selection, then everyone gets a Penalty for entering the Field. <G28>

[tim-tim]

At Chesapeake, the ref asked the alliance captain to put his phone away.

I don't see the big deal. If you can't use electronic devices, resort to old technology. We had a dry erase board and marker. Much cheaper than an iPad or phone.

Also, have a pick list made with a few different scenarios. Choose a representative that has been given a walk through of what you expect them to do, just don't give a high school student a list of numbers.

[Rupnick]

For years now 1675 has had a small group in the stands with scouting data and a big dry erase board to relay team numbers to the person on the field.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Please state where in the rules that alliance selection is included.

Please state where each of the rules state that they are included anywhere, and section titles don't do that. (there are a few exceptions/inclusions, but generally the rules are considered in force unless otherwise specified)


By your logic... no one could bring a microphone into the arena... or rollerblades... etc etc... it does not SAY this pertains only to the TEAMS.

It might be necessary to just use common sense... and past practice..
and the update information

Correct, but since the ARENA is specifically defined there would be little issue with rollerblades and such (I haven't seen anyone bring rollerblades to the ARENA). And anything brought into the ARENA (such as a microphone) would have to provide an 'advantage' to be considered against the rules.

If all the Game rules apply to Alliance Selection, then everyone gets a Penalty for entering the Field. <G28>

I guess they feel that since all teams get a penalty, they'll just overlook it ;)

[Kevin Sevcik]

<T25> and <T26> would seem to disallow thisOnce you've decided that <T25> and <T26> aren't restricted to match play, they disallow a heck of a lot of things we all take for granted that have been legal at just about every regional I can think of. Just to belabor the point, here's a brief list of things that I'll be expecting you to leave behind when you enter the ARENA, no matter when that is:

Pick lists written on whiteboards, paper tablets, etc.
Pens, pencils, and other writing implements for your illegal paper
Wagons, robot carts, etc.
Gloves for lifting robots
Any special fixturing a team has for safely lifting a robot
Multimeter for quickly diagnosing any robot problems
Tools for quickly fixing any robot problems
Laptop for fixing programs or for the on-field calibration at Champs
Phones, cameras, etc for recording what's being said during driver meetings
Cameras for snapping pictures during award ceremonies
Tools being used by teams that stay behind to help disassemble the field after the regional

I'm sure I'm missing a lot of things. If anyone else wants to chip in "special equipment" that teams typically use during awards ceremonies, drivers meetings, or pre/post matches, feel free.

On another note, exactly what was your proposed enforcement method to penalize a team for bringing a camera on field during the Saturday Awards? Revoke their award and assign it to another team on the spot?

Oh, and no pleading that it doesn't apply to awards ceremonies for some reason. You've decided it applies to the ARENA period, with no limit on the timeframe. That's possibly supportable in the text of the rules. You can't support "just MATCHES and ALLIANCE SELECTION" anymore than we could support "just MATCHES". Somewhat less, in fact, since we have precedent and a Q&A ruling on our side.

[Tim Delles]

Is there really being a discussion about this?

Laptops, IPads, Cell Phones, use a Supercomputer if you want... Come on, as long as the picks are made in a timely manner everything is good. If you are that annoyed by this, I think you have bigger issues here.

[Alan Anderson]

Is there really being a discussion about this?

Yes, there is really being a discussion about this. Some regional events have imposed "house rules" prohibiting the use of phones and laptops by the team representatives during alliance selection. Those rules are not supported by the Game Manual, and they are explicitly contradicted by the GDC, but they exist.

[The Lucas]

<T25> and <T26> would seem to disallow this

Quote:
<T25> The only equipment that may be brought on to the ARENA is the OPERATOR CONSOLE, reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for the TEAM, are prohibited.

<T26> Devices used solely for the purpose of planning or tracking strategy of game play are allowed inside the ALLIANCE STATION, if they meet ALL of the following conditions:
 Do not connect or attach to the OPERATOR CONSOLE
 Do not connect or attach to the FIELD or ARENA
 Do not connect or attach to another ALLIANCE member
 Do not communicate with anything or anyone outside of the ARENA.
 Do no include any form of enabled wireless electronic communication (e.g. radios, walkie-talkies, cell phones, Bluetooth communications, WiFi, etc.)
 Do not in any way affect the outcome of a MATCH, other than by allowing TEAM members to plan or track strategy for the purposes of communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members.
Emphisis mine.

Daniel,
You really need to download an updated manual::rtm:: <T25> was changed in TU13 (http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2011_Assets/Team_Updates/Team%20Update%2013.pdf). Here are the current versions:
<T25> The only equipment that may be brought in to the ALLIANCE STATION is the OPERATOR CONSOLE and non-powered ANALYST-to-FEEDER signaling devices. Reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability may be brought into the ALLIANCE or FEEDER STATIONS. Other items, particularly those intended
to provide a competitive advantage for the TEAM, are prohibited.
<T26> Devices used solely for the purpose of planning or tracking strategy of game play are allowed inside the ALLIANCE STATION, if they meet ALL of the following conditions:
 Do not connect or attach to the OPERATOR CONSOLE
 Do not connect or attach to the FIELD or ARENA
 Do not connect or attach to another ALLIANCE member
 Do not communicate with anything or anyone outside of the ARENA.
 Do no include any form of enabled wireless electronic communication (e.g. radios, walkie-talkies, cell phones, Bluetooth communications, WiFi, etc.)
 Do not in any way affect the outcome of a MATCH, other than by allowing TEAM members to plan or track strategy for the purposes of communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members.
My emphasis on the critical difference, there is no mention of the ARENA in <T25>. So Mark is right. No one in inside the Alliance Station, so <T25> & <T26> don't apply during Alliance Selection.

Everyone, if you haven't downloaded a manual since March 22 please download the updated version (http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2011_Assets/Complete_FRC_Game_Manual_22Mar2011.pdf). Rules are in flux all season and it is important to keep everyone on the same page to avoid confusion. Also, please take extra care to ensure correctness when quoting the manual on any forum.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Daniel,
You really need to download an updated manual::rtm:: <T25> was changed in TU13 (http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2011_Assets/Team_Updates/Team%20Update%2013.pdf). Here are the current versions:

My emphasis on the critical difference, there is no mention of the ARENA in <T25>. So Mark is right. No one in inside the Alliance Station, so <T25> & <T26> don't apply during Alliance Selection.

Everyone, if you haven't downloaded a manual since March 22 please download the updated version (http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2011_Assets/Complete_FRC_Game_Manual_22Mar2011.pdf). Rules are in flux all season and it is important to keep everyone on the same page to avoid confusion. Also, please take extra care to ensure correctness when quoting the manual on any forum.

I stand corrected.

[548swimmer]

I stand corrected.

Additionally, in your original post the rule (<T26>) you quoted talked about the ALLIANCE STATION. The ALLIANCE STATION is not the FIELD.

In my experience alliance selection does not occur in the ALLIANCE STATION (correct me if I'm wrong here).

[jblay]

This thread is blowing my mind. As someone who has been on the field for alliance selections several times, I have never been at a regional where they havent specifically said before alliance selections began, "turn off your phones."

I guess this is more prevalent in the north east but I have always hated that regionals do this and am very glad to see now that what they are doing is in fact against the rules. I hope it stays this way so that next year I can say to the people telling the student on the field to turn off their phone, "here is the rule" and that will hopefully end that.

[waialua359]

It should not have to come down to a team update. I never saw a rule against it and there should have never been any regionals not allowing it.

Well, alliances captains in both NYC and Hawaii were told not to use them.
Specifically, we had an iPad and had to quickly write it on a piece of paper with team numbers but NO notes.

I'm glad an update came out.

I cant see how any team would have a competitive advantage, when in fact, they themselves do their homework in scouting teams during qualifications.

[waialua359]

At Chesapeake, the ref asked the alliance captain to put his phone away.

I don't see the big deal. If you can't use electronic devices, resort to old technology. We had a dry erase board and marker. Much cheaper than an iPad or phone.

Also, have a pick list made with a few different scenarios. Choose a representative that has been given a walk through of what you expect them to do, just don't give a high school student a list of numbers.

Honestly, I think it is a big deal.
This is 2011! those days of a dry erase board and marker are easily replaced with personal electronic do-it-all devices.

Time to get with the program.:)

[plnyyanks]

I have never been at a regional where they havent specifically said before alliance selections began, "turn off your phones."


At the Connecticut Regional, they were very explicit about disallowing all electronic devices during Alliance Selections

[demosthenes2k8]

Computers were allowed in Vegas, but the teams who used them were basically mocked, which I find to be rather sad, honestly.

[Ether]

Computers were allowed in Vegas, but the teams who used them were basically mocked

Mocked by whom?

[demosthenes2k8]

I don't recall the exact words, but the announcer was basically, "And look at that. Another laptop." and generally teasing the teams that used laptops. At least, that's how it sounded to me.

[hg273]

Yes, there is really being a discussion about this. Some regional events have imposed "house rules" prohibiting the use of phones and laptops by the team representatives during alliance selection. Those rules are not supported by the Game Manual, and they are explicitly contradicted by the GDC, but they exist.

At our first regional in San Diego, we had no problem using an iPad for alliance selection.

When I got on the field for alliance selection in Oregon, I was told by the FTA to turn it off and put it away. I immediately referred him to the GDC ruling, so they went and checked the rule, after which the iPad use was ok'd. Later on in alliance selection, a team asked their head scout who to pick by using the in house mic. The MC told the captain that that was against the rules, so again, we pointed to the CDC update.

I know in Seattle, Blair expressly said that no electronics were allowed. I think this trend results mostly from personal opinions and commonly held misconceptions. As FIRST has expanded it's unfortunate that there is this much inconsistency across the regional events.

[Kevin Sevcik]

At our first regional in San Diego, we had no problem using an iPad for alliance selection.

When I got on the field for alliance selection in Oregon, I was told by the FTA to turn it off and put it away. I immediately referred him to the GDC ruling, so they went and checked the rule, after which the iPad use was ok'd. Later on in alliance selection, a team asked their head scout who to pick by using the in house mic. The MC told the captain that that was against the rules, so again, we pointed to the CDC update.

I know in Seattle, Blair expressly said that no electronics were allowed. I think this trend results mostly from personal opinions and commonly held misconceptions. As FIRST has expanded it's unfortunate that there is this much inconsistency across the regional events.I think the issue is that in prior years, electronic and other aids were expressly disallowed in the rules. For quite a number of years, actually. There's a lot of people in FIRST who've been doing this a long time and you tend to get certain rules and things stuck in your head after five years and dozens of regionals all working the same.

That, and as awesome as Blair is, I don't know if he and other MC's are following the updates and Q&A as religiously as some most teams do. So what's probably called for is better internal communication on FIRST's side, with a primer and important updates being distributed to MC's and others that aren't necessarily keeping up with the in-season rule changes.

[pwnageNick]

Bottomline, if you (your team) wants to use a phone/iTOuch/iPad/laptop/etc. use it. When you send your team rep up, they can have whatever they want with them. In addition, have them bring your team copy of the rules (this is assuming your team has an updated set of rules, which you should), and make sure the person is ready to pull the rule and update out. If you have that, then the head ref will go over and pull out his rules and confer with you, and it should be fine. Just make sure you're polite with it. There's a reason they came up with the update, and I doubt anyone will run into any more problems because the head refs will probably be notified about this latest update.

[JohnBoucher]

Any issues during week 6?

[agamemnon]

Any issues during week 6?

Our team went up with a laptop during alliance selections (although it died half way through) and there was at least one team on the phone during the entire selection process.

[Siri]

Any issues during week 6?I and my lead strategy counterpart on our 1st pick team (thanks MOE) texted our reps throughout the process. Didn't face any problems, and I don't think we were the only ones. Definitely helps when rushing to weigh the scouting for that second-to-last pick!

[AlexD744]

If all the Game rules apply to Alliance Selection, then everyone gets a Penalty for entering the Field. <G28>

Like.

[Bob Steele]

Bottomline, if you (your team) wants to use a phone/iTOuch/iPad/laptop/etc. use it. When you send your team rep up, they can have whatever they want with them. In addition, have them bring your team copy of the rules (this is assuming your team has an updated set of rules, which you should), and make sure the person is ready to pull the rule and update out. If you have that, then the head ref will go over and pull out his rules and confer with you, and it should be fine. Just make sure you're polite with it. There's a reason they came up with the update, and I doubt anyone will run into any more problems because the head refs will probably be notified about this latest update.

Sounds good to me... perhaps you should have this rule on a piece of paper.. and not on a "illegal" electronic device....but hmmmm doesn't that give you an advantage? or if your team did scouting doesn't that give you an advantage... ???
So if a student has to wear glasses... isn't that something that gives you an advantage...

maybe we should just determine alliances randomly....

NOTE: My comment in this post is
SARCASM.... not intended to be taken seriously...

By the way I have all of the rules on a Kindle...
I am hoping that someone will post the entire QA in a PDF format so it would be available... it could come in handy...

see you in St. Louis!!

[thefro526]

Any issues during week 6?

Following the final Qualification match in Philly, there was an announcement specifically allowing Laptops on the field during Alliance Selections.

Initially, one of the people managing the Queuing line for Selections told all teams that Cell Phones must be turned off during selections - this was later reversed and Phones were allowed during selections, and our Representative was not hassled for having a Blue Tooth Headset in his ear, at all.

[Joe Ross]

I am hoping that someone will post the entire QA in a PDF format so it would be available... it could come in handy...

As of a month ago: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1043511#post1043511

[JesseK]

VCU's only 'house rule' like this was a no cell phones in the queue. Since I was on the phone talking to my fiancee about what to do about my dog, I don't think I gained a competitive advantage other than a "good luck". I told the queuer that there wasn't a rule about the queing line, yet she refused ... eventually I leaned over the railing to finish the call and they were fine with that. 6" is a bit pedantic to be honest, even for a "house rule".