View Full Version : Bills Blog - Champs info
JohnBoucher
05-04-2011, 16:49
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/04/latest-on-cmp.html
All the fields are not in the same location
Full Text....
The latest on CMP
Good Afternoon Teams,
The Championship Planning Committee met last night. Its mindboggling how many details there are to running an event like the Championship every year. Now that we’re moving to a new location, after seven years in Atlanta, GA, the committee needs to examine every aspect of the event, ask ‘why do we do this this way?’ and determine ‘what is the best way to do this in St. Louis?’ Not everything is 100% firm yet, but here is the latest information I have on the 2011 FIRST Championship.
Wednesday
5-9:30PM – 5 representatives from each FRC team will be allowed into the pits to:
Uncrate their robot – robot inspectors will be on hand to check your lock-up form if your last regional was a bag & tag event
Work on their robot – the NASA machine shops will be open
Get their robot inspected
Get their encryption keyThursday
Teams may calibrate their robot sensors on the competition fields 8:00am-8:45am
Practice matches run 9:00am – noon
Qualification matches run 1:00-7:00pm YES, MATCHES RUN UNTIL 7PM
Pits will stay open until 8PM
Friday
Opening Ceremonies start at 8:30am. There will be NO ROBOT PARADE.
Qualification matches 9:30am-5:00pm YES, MATCHES ARE SCHEDULED TO END AT 5PM
The FIRST Dean’s List presentation will be held at noon in the Ballroom
Pits and the NASA machine shops will stay open until 7pm
Saturday
Closing Ceremonies, including the final FRC matches and award presentations are scheduled 4:00pm-6:00
I will be hosting half hour FRC Live sessions at 10:30 & 3:30 on Thursday and at 10:30 on Friday. I’m not ready to announce the topics, but I do want to thank everyone who sent in suggestions.
The floor plan will be VERY DIFFERENT in St. Louis. New this year, two qualification fields will be located in the Dome and two qualification fields will be located in the pits. To ensure all teams get to compete both in the high profile Dome and on the easy access, intimate fields in the pits, divisions will swap fields at noon on Friday. Specifically: if your team starts qualification rounds on Dome field #1 on Thursday, your team will move to Pit field #1 on Friday while the teams who started qualification rounds on Pit field #1 on Thursday, move to Dome field #1 on Friday
Watch this space, and your team’s main and alternate contact’s email inbox for additional updates. I understand from the committee that there will be more details available on April 20th.
22 Days until Championship
See you then!
AdamHeard
05-04-2011, 16:53
Not all fields are in the dome, some are in the pits.... Wow, the scouts will not be happy about this.
Switching fields?
Man I thought we left that crap back at Disneyworld. I don't know anyone who missed that nonsense.
If the Jones Dome wasn't big enough to hold four fields then why in the world did FIRST grant them the contract for three years?
This is looking worse and worse every time I turn around to look again.
Alex Cormier
05-04-2011, 16:57
Switching fields?
Man I thought we left that crap back at Disneyworld. I don't know anyone who missed that nonsense.
If the Jones Dome wasn't big enough to hold four fields then why in the world did FIRST grant them the contract for three years?
This is looking worse and worse every time I turn around to look again.
What would cause them to do this? Isn't the football field the same size as ATL? It was perfect in ATL, so why change it for STL?
Seems like a step backwards.
So, now there will be 4 fields in the pits and 3 fields in the dome?
Justin Montois
05-04-2011, 16:58
Oh wow. To say STL will be different is an understatement.
Qual matches until 7PM on Thursday is good, Hopefully that means more matches. (More then 10?)
No mention of how Saturday afternoon is going to go per each division. It just mentions final rounds starting at 4:30, we'll have to stay tuned to see if anything there changes. Possibly no Qualifiication matches on Saturday?
I'm not sure how i'm going to like the "pit" fields versus "Dome" fields. It will be different. The goal here is to have a more "intimate" field set-up in the pits. I wonder why this change was made though, we ran 4 fields in Atlanta for 7 years and sure it wasn't as intimate but it was awesome seeing all 4 fields going at once. Granted queuing may have been a little hectic at times but when isn't it? And if we are swapping fields at Noon on Friday does that mean if you start in the pits on Thursday, you get to go to the Dome on Friday at noon and then what happens on Saturday?
Stay tuned for more infro from Bill. This thread is going to be interesting to watch. Mike and I just got a ton of things to talk about on our Show tomorrow night. (http://frctop25.com/MikeandJustinITM.html)
If the pits werent crowded enough as they were!?!
Cyberphil
05-04-2011, 17:01
Kind of interesting, but it will be a pain to scout. At least you only have to scout your devision. But still, moving all of the equipment and all will not be too fun.
On the competition side of things, one day you will have an easy walk, and the next day a bit farther.
I was not around for Championships when it was in Disney, but this really does sound like a pain.
Other than that, everything sounds good. I am really glad we get to work for a while on Wednesday. I am sure many teams including us will need this time.
LightWaves1636
05-04-2011, 17:02
So the divisions are switching fields but are the volunteer staff sticking to their divisions or sticking to their fields cause what I'm concerned with are consistent ref calls in each division.
eek, what a logistics nightmare.....:confused:
omg, what's the team social going to be like?
Pat Fairbank
05-04-2011, 17:03
If it's anything like the Epcot setup was, "intimate" will mean "impossible to find seating".
If it's anything like the Epcot setup was, "intimate" will mean "impossible to find seating".
At Disney people were interested to find spots in those tent area because they were shaded instead of watching matches on whatever field they were assigned to back in 2002.
This isn't quite as extreme but it'll be interesting to watch teams jostle for position for when they switch fields.
Jon Jack
05-04-2011, 17:26
This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen....
Besides the fact that there's going to be a huge exodus from the pits to the dome and visa versa Friday at noon, what about teams using line followers or cameras? Instead of calibrating for 1 field, they now have to calibrate for two fields in the alloted 45 minutes. Instead of ~86 teams looking for a spot on one field, there are 160+ teams looking for a spot on both fields. Furthermore, how is FIRST planning on transferring tournament data from "Dome Field #1" to "Pit Field #1"? What if a team has issues connecting to one field but not the other? Will teams be allowed to practice on both fields prior to the start of qualifications?
I too am curious how Saturday afternoon will work. Do teams in two divisions get to use their own pit area, while the teams in the other two have to move their pit to the Dome? What happens when the pit divisions move on to Einstein? Do those 6 teams have to hurry up, pack up their pit and make a mad dash to the dome?
--Jon
Jessica Boucher
05-04-2011, 17:45
::headdesk::
LightWaves1636
05-04-2011, 17:47
::headdesk::
Agreed.
The only consolation I see in this is personal: Having only attended CMP once, last year, I'm not used to the Atlanta setup; however, I have to wonder about this. Is the planned setup purely to allow for both an intimate environment in the pits, as well as the awesome, professional-sports-event atmosphere in the dome, or are there some other logistical issues forcing this to be the case?
I assume it's the former, because I can't begin to imagine what sort of issues would force FIRST to set up the championship event in this way, but it seems to me that the powers that be would have had enough foresight to realize how greatly inconvenienced teams would be by this plan. In any case, it should be...interesting...at best to see how this all pans out.
I guess I should probably worry about my team qualifying for CMP first, though.
Bob Steele
05-04-2011, 17:55
Intimate normally means small and crowded
I wonder if there will even be bleachers or seating in these "intimate" pit fields.
Or will they just be glorified practice fields...
I guess they need more room to put FTC and LEGO LEAGUE in front of everyone in the DOME. Or more room for VIPS or something...
This is, indeed, very disappointing...a logistics nightmare.
I don't get it... but don't expect anyone to tell you why...especially BILL
... what's the team social going to be like?
From what I can tell, there has been NO INFORMATION about the "social" or "finale" from [I]FRIST[I] or Steele Meetings other than "we will have one" and all details are "TBA".
Anyone have any other information?
Will there be one? Will food be available? Anyone know?
-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox
What happened to KISS? This is just asking for trouble. If the venue could not accommodate 4 fields, they should've picked a different venue.
Intimate normally means small and crowded
I wonder if there will even be bleachers or seating in these "intimate" pit fields.
Or will they just be glorified practice fields...
I guess they need more room to put FTC and LEGO LEAGUE in front of everyone in the DOME. Or more room for VIPS or something...
This is, indeed, very disappointing...a logistics nightmare.
I don't get it... but don't expect anyone to tell you why...especially BILL
Aw man! I hope they aren't kicking two FRC fields to the pits so FLL and FTC can be showcased in the dome. You can't even see the action from the stands!
ARGH!
LightWaves1636
05-04-2011, 17:58
Intimate normally means small and crowded
I wonder if there will even be bleachers or seating in these "intimate" pit fields.
Or will they just be glorified practice fields...
I guess they need more room to put FTC and LEGO LEAGUE in front of everyone in the DOME. Or more room for VIPS or something...
This is, indeed, very disappointing...a logistics nightmare.
I don't get it... but don't expect anyone to tell you why...especially BILL
Oh man, if the stage is bigger for the "entertainment" side of FIRST........I just don't know....
or maybe they kicked out two FRC fields cause they couldn't fit a 4th and make it the "black sheep" field.....I wish he posted on why the fields are the pits, it'll give a little more ease of mind even if it's still a logistics nightmare.
Is anyone missing Atlanta already?
Is the location of the pits known?
Spectators' ability to see the pit fields seems like an obvious concern. It was pretty easy for everyone to see when each field had its own corner of the Georgia Dome. Hopefully that has been one of the team's considerations as they make their arrangements.
This is a puzzling move. I wonder if they're trying to set things up so it's easier for more people to watch Einstein at the end. That has been an issue in the two years I was there.
Who wants to pay 5K to play in the pits?
I've never been to the Championship Event, but I think I miss Atlanta despite that fact. My team has a outsiders shot at making in in through the MSC points system, but honestly if we play in the pits there is nothing special about the event. On a side note: If the switch is made at noon on Friday than doesn't that give some teams more time on the main field 6 hours Thursday and 3.5 Friday. The others will get 5 hours Friday and roughly 3.5 at the most Saturday. That means one group gets an extra hour on the good fields. For 5K teams deserve to play on a better spot than "in the pits."
Who wants to pay 5K to play in the pits?
Only for half the event.
So you're actually paying $2500 to play in the pits.
LightWaves1636
05-04-2011, 18:16
Is the location of the pits known?
Spectators' ability to see the pit fields seems like an obvious concern. It was pretty easy for everyone to see when each field had its own corner of the Georgia Dome. Hopefully that has been one of the team's considerations as they make their arrangements.
This is a puzzling move. I wonder if they're trying to set things up so it's easier for more people to watch Einstein at the end. That has been an issue in the two years I was there.
Now I'm afraid they're going to say one of the fields IS EINSTEIN.........I hope not....
I just remembered the whole will.i.am stuff, what if they do have bigger stage for entertainment stuff????
Now I'm afraid they're going to say one of the fields IS EINSTEIN.........I hope not....
I just remembered the whole will.i.am stuff, what if they do have bigger stage for entertainment stuff????
Nah. They wouldn't do that.
That would do more damage to FIRST's reputation than anything they have ever done in the past.
I can't see then doing it.
The prospect of having to organize scouting around this is driving me out of my mind but the more important point is what are they gonna be doing for the elimination matches? Are 2 of the divisions going to be playing elimination matches in the pit?
Are you gonna even be able to watch your team play if you manage to make the eliminations? The pits will be too crowded to be able to see the field.
Mike Starke
05-04-2011, 18:25
I just keep shaking my head. I can't believe this. Championship suddenly just lost it's allure. Feels like we'll be competing at another Regional, rather than at the World Championships...
They didn't mention where teams would be for practice matches. How is it fair that teams could possibly spend all day Thursday, and half of Friday in the Dome, while the rest of the teams have to suffer sitting on bleachers in the pits, and only get a half a day in the dome on Friday? No mention of qualification matches on Saturday. Will two divisions be sharing a field in the dome for Eliminations? Something that stuck out when I read the blog is the use of the word "Qualification" fields.
I just don't know why they would release only part of the information. Leaves us with so many questions.
And as Justin said, tune in to our show tomorrow night, as we will definitely be talking about this! http://www.livestream.com/MikeandJustinITM (and don't forget to vote at http://www.FRCTop25.com)
Who wants to pay 5K to play in the pits?
I'm fine with it. I have no problem playing in the pits.
My concern is the switch halfway through Friday. This is an unnecessary logistical headache for teams. We've had to tweak our automodes at every regional we attend because the distance between the tower and the scoring pegs has been different. Also, as Jon Jack mentioned, any field switching is a nightmare for teams using line trackers or the camera. Going to a brand new field in the middle of the day is an unnecessary challenge for the teams. I hope FIRST reconsiders this decision and leaves the divisions stationary. I'd much rather stay in the pit for all division play, then be bouncing around. If they do decide to do thee bouncing, at least don't make it a midday switch, which has the additional hassle of moving all team members from one location to another.
I'm sure logistical headaches have forced FIRST to go with divisions in the pits. I get that. I just hope they won't add logistical headaches for the teams by making us move around.
GaryVoshol
05-04-2011, 18:48
Even the low-cost District events don't have to play matches in the pits.
If I was going, this would distress me greatly. As it is, it distresses me anyway.
Have preregistered teams already paid, or do they still have the opportunity to back out?
XaulZan11
05-04-2011, 19:00
I don't want to judge this decision without knowing the details/reasons and seeing how it works out but here are some thoughts:
--One of my favorite things about going to Atlanta was walking into the dome for the first time with a rookie student and having them exclaim how grand the dome looks with 6 fields on the floor. I hope this isn't lost in St. Louis.
-- The lack of qualification matches on Saturday (and longer days on Thursday and Friday) make me (and others who already posted) wonder if eliminations will start on Saturday morning. It would add an interesting twist to Friday night scouting meetings if you know the top 8 for sure.
-- As Mike mentioned below, perhaps two divisions will share the same field in the dome. If so, I think it would be interesting to have Curie Alliance selection, Newton alliance selection, Curie quarterfinals, Newton quarterfinals, Curie semifinals.... Thus, alliances would have additional time to strategize before each round.
-- I hope there is plenty of seating in the pit fields...
In the end I expect there to be some headaches and issues as it is a pretty drastic change from previous championships, but I don't think it will ruin the event. But, if teams want to back out of the 'train wreck', I'm sure I can think of some teams who would want to go;)
All I'll say now is I'm glad we didn't qualify.
Man... you don't think that is just being a TOUCH over-dramatic? C'mon... really?
I'm fine with it. I have no problem playing in the pits.
I'm sure some teams, like your own, would be fine with doing this. However some teams, like my own, lack the cash most years to attend even when we are good enough. For the teams that only get to go once every 3 or 4 years it is greatly distressing to not get your money's worth. Like I have said previously I have never gotten the opportunity to attend the Championship Event. However if this is as bad as it sounds I almost don't want to be a part of it.
This sounds a lot like a MI District. While they are fine for what they are and preferable to regionals, I don't want the Championship Event to just feel like half district and half Championship Event.
For the sake of all teams attending I hope it turns out better than this. Teams that are good enough to make it deserve to have something special and sponsors deserve the money they donate teams to be spent better.
Chris is me
05-04-2011, 19:03
Man... you don't think that is just being a TOUCH over-dramatic? C'mon... really?
I meant this more as "I guess there's a silver lining to not making it this year" but I'm not having a particularly good day with communication.
Since our first trip would be after 2011, FIRST will know whether or not this worked by then.
BrendanB
05-04-2011, 19:06
Imma be miles away from the pits when the switch over happens. EVERYONE will be in the pits when the switch happens so they can get good seats.
Intimate isn't bad but I feel that that is what happens at small regionals. I just feel like intimate/switching will be a huge headache and crowded/crazy always brings out the bad in people. Stand issues are already bad enough with saving seats and all and who knows how bad it will be in the pit fields when they switch.
FIRST just might be doing the locomotion... I'll just make sure I'm miles away when the trains collide head on! :) ;)
XaulZan11
05-04-2011, 19:08
However if this is as bad as it sounds I almost don't want to be a part of it.
It won't be. This this a classic case of overly-dramtic complaining on CD. I don't always approve of the decision FIRST makes, but I have to believe they will be prepared and thought-out enough to ensure this isn't a disastor as some make it seem it will be.
I'm sure some teams, like your own, would be fine with doing this. However some teams, like my own, lack the cash most years to attend even when we are good enough. For the teams that only get to go once every 3 or 4 years it is greatly distressing to not get your money's worth. Like I have said previously I have never gotten the opportunity to attend the Championship Event. However if this is as bad as it sounds I almost don't want to be a part of it.
This sounds a lot like a MI District. While they are fine for what they are and preferable to regionals, I don't want the Championship Event to just feel like half district and half Championship Event.
For the sake of all teams attending I hope it turns out better than this. Teams that are good enough to make it deserve to have something special and sponsors deserve the money they donate teams to be spent better.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm eager to be playing matches in the pit, compared to what we had at the Georgia Dome last year. But given the choice between spending all our time in the pit fields, or moving back and forth and dealing with all the associated hassles, I'd take the pit in a heartbeat.
Anyways, before we all get worked up over this setup, let's wait and see what details emerge. It can't be as bad as everyone is making it seem.
BrendanB
05-04-2011, 19:13
It won't be. This this a classic case of overly-dramtic complaining on CD. I don't always approve of the decision FIRST makes, but I have to believe they will be prepared and thought-out enough to ensure this isn't a disastor as some make it seem it will be.
Hmmm over dramatic? Maybe.
I think what a lot of people are wondering is why? WHY is this happening if Jones is bigger? Why do teams need to move? At lunch teams need to pack up, move, and eat. Hopefully their will be a longer break to ease the rush of teams trying to get good seats again.
I hope FIRST really is thinking this through but it just doesn't sound like a good idea. I don't think releasing it without more details is good either!
Justin Montois
05-04-2011, 19:14
-- I hope there is plenty of seating in the pit fields...
I really don't see how they are going to have enough seating to accommodate roughly 86 teams for each field. Chesapeake has bleacher seating on each side of the field and it barely accommodated 60 teams. :confused:
Chris Fultz
05-04-2011, 19:16
Given the choice, I would rather play all my matches in one place or the other and not have the move 1/2 way through.
But I know for many teams and students, this could be their only visit to the Championship event and it is a very cool thing to be out on the dome floor playing, even if it is only for 1/2 the time.
We will make it work and adjust as we need to.
And, it isn't that much different from most regionals, where you are effectively playing "in the pits" because you just walk from the pits to the field to the stands - all one level and all close.
The other benefit is that we have students who are on the pit crew or talk to judges who never see us play a match at CHP due to the travel time. This solves that!
JohnBoucher
05-04-2011, 19:17
What does this mean?
Saturday
Closing Ceremonies, including the final FRC matches and award presentations are scheduled 4:00pm-6:00
What happens Saturday AM?
What does this mean?
What happens Saturday AM?
Maybe they're gonna go all Battlecry and have 16 alliances. battle it out in all the divisions.
Alpha Beta
05-04-2011, 19:24
I wonder if they needed room for the Collegiate FIRST event in the dome. :confused:
April 20th is a long ways to wait for more information. It sounds like they are still working out the details. I wonder what kinds of things are still up for negotiation and how our comments here might influence the final decisions. This is not the kind of change I was looking forward to as the Championship Event comes to my home state.
I was wondering about saturday morning too. So if your not playing maybe you can get your room refunded and head home early. I say this in jest,mostly.
miketwalker
05-04-2011, 19:30
I was wondering about saturday morning too. So if your not playing maybe you can get your room refunded and head home early.
I would say with almost certainty that if there aren't qualification matches Saturday morning (and alliance selection is on Friday), we will see at least a few teams leave the event after Friday to save money.
Who else is seriously concerned about the noise level in the pit/pit field area?
BrendanB
05-04-2011, 19:30
I wonder if they needed room for the Collegiate FIRST event in the dome. :confused:
April 20th is a long ways to wait for more information. It sounds like they are still working out the details. I wonder what kinds of things are still up for negotiation and how our comments here might influence the final decisions. This is not the kind of change I was looking forward to as the Championship Event comes to my home state.
What collegiate FIRST event? :rolleyes:
@Kara: Seems to be a theme this year!
We are a local St. Louis team, and I am disappointed to hear this. We have been working hard to publicize this event as a great opportunity for the public to see what we do. We were working to put together a field trip for several classes of 2nd grade students to watch. Now that we know this setup, I believe that our staff sponsors will choose to cancel that field trip. They are also not nearly as proud to invite the superintendent and other administrators when there may or may not even be a place to sit. We told them we were excited to be playing in the Dome, and now that may not even be the truth depending on when they can come.
Billfred
05-04-2011, 19:58
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm eager to be playing matches in the pit, compared to what we had at the Georgia Dome last year. But given the choice between spending all our time in the pit fields, or moving back and forth and dealing with all the associated hassles, I'd take the pit in a heartbeat.
I'm curious what the walk will be between the two fields. If a team could get two sets of calibration readings in 45 minutes (even pushing the robot on the cart--might as well get used to it), relief from those frustrations seems to be a sticky note away.
Anyways, before we all get worked up over this setup, let's wait and see what details emerge. It can't be as bad as everyone is making it seem.
Cosigned. This'll be my first Championship outside of Atlanta, and I know there will be speedbumps, but I doubt that Bill Miller is up in his office right now twirling his mustache and cackling evilly. Playing qualification matches in the pits is highly unlikely to be the worst thing our team has experienced all year (even if Friday at Peachtree was a bit of a curvebuster).
Joe Ross
05-04-2011, 20:05
What happens Saturday AM?
I would say with almost certainty that if there aren't qualification matches Saturday morning (and alliance selection is on Friday), we will see at least a few teams leave the event after Friday to save money.
As always, you can view the full agenda on the championship website: http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=432 I wouldn't expect Bill to duplicate the entire agenda. As usual, there qualification matches and division eliminations on Saturday.
Chris_Elston
05-04-2011, 20:08
What does this mean?
What happens Saturday AM?
Here is the agenda which denotes Sat AM.
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Events/2011/2011_CMP_Public_Agenda_3-7-2011.pdf
It's been a month since it's been updated. But somewhat a clue to your question.
EDIT: Joe beat me to the punch....
Joe Ross
05-04-2011, 20:13
It's been a month since it's been updated. But somewhat a clue to your question.
It was updated 3/21 according to the note at the bottom, they just didn't update the filename. However, based on the content, I wouldn't be surprised if it was updated this week.
I'm curious what the walk will be between the two fields. If a team could get two sets of calibration readings in 45 minutes (even pushing the robot on the cart--might as well get used to it), relief from those frustrations seems to be a sticky note away.
Shouldn't be too bad--it's virtually level, and Hall 5 is maybe 5-10 minutes from Hall 6 (the arena, depending on where you're going in the arena). Hall 1, at the opposite end of the convention halls, would be another 10-15 accounting for traffic and robot towing.
Depending on how long calibration took, I'd say you could probably do it in about 30 minutes for both fields. 45 is a reasonable guesstimate to account for everyone else trying to do the same thing. Maybe as long as an hour.
miketwalker
05-04-2011, 20:16
As always, you can view the full agenda on the championship website: http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=432 I wouldn't expect Bill to duplicate the entire agenda. As usual, there qualification matches and division eliminations on Saturday.
The public agenda is inconsistent with Bill's posting. His posting clearly states different times from the posted agenda and directly states in all capitals that "MATCHES ARE SCHEDULED TO END AT 5PM" on Friday suggesting this may be the end time for all qualifying matches. The public agenda in its' current form can not be used for scheduling purposes until all changes are incorporated. Whether we are talking about qualifying matches ending completely at 5pm on Friday or things will be as usual on Saturday morning needs to be clarified. It most likely will be business as usual, but there are obviously drastic changes being considered so we need to wait on an update.
Bob Steele
05-04-2011, 20:18
Well the schedule as posted above isn't final (as stated)
Bill's blog post shows at least one difference already.
FRC qual matches end on 5 Friday (it shows 6 on the posted schedule)
I didn't check for other changes....
you beat me Mike :0)
I keep holding out hope that this is just a delayed action April Fools joke.
This is such an awful idea.
DonRotolo
05-04-2011, 20:23
Besides the fact that there's going to be a huge exodus from the pits to the dome and visa versa Friday at noon
That will be a sight to see, I'm bringing a video camera. I just need to remember to film the stampede from a safe place :ahh:
Furthermore, how is FIRST planning on transferring tournament data from "Dome Field #1" to "Pit Field #1"?Maybe Ethernet? :rolleyes:
Here is the agenda which denotes Sat AM.
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Events/2011/2011_CMP_Public_Agenda_3-7-2011.pdf
It's been a month since it's been updated. But somewhat a clue to your question.
EDIT: Joe beat me to the punch....
I would seem to infer that since what Bill said in his blog would update the agenda on the FIRST website by ending an hour earlier on Friday and going an hour later on Thursday, that the Plan Pending at 8PM on Friday may be a possible reason that they had to move two fields to the pit area.
Going on to the EJD site and the GD site one can basically see that it appears the floor space of the EJD is in fact larger than the GD, by how much would depend on if they had the retractable seats extended or not in the EJD.
On another note, I personally think that this isn't truly that bad of a situation. It has its Pros and Cons, but why not give something a try before completely dismissing it. As a student of process and logistics engineering, I do agree that it provides at first glance somewhat of a logistical nightmare, but we don't even know yet how many of the Exhibit Halls FIRST is taking up in the Convention Center, so for all we know, there could be a whole lot more space in the pit area this year.
**And some people beat me to some of my points**
BrendanB
05-04-2011, 20:26
I keep holding out hope that this is just a delayed action April Fools joke.
This is such an awful idea.
Same here.
This will make the dome look even more empty with half of the teams in another place. Seems like the pit will be the main attraction with two fields and the robots housed.
Maybe Ethernet? :rolleyes:
Or maybe even wireless.......just hope they don't have problems like the robots :rolleyes:
........Although in a serious answer, they will probably use the backup files that the FMS creates would be my guess. Just hope that person that is in charge or running from one field to the other doesn't get lost....
Alex Cormier
05-04-2011, 20:29
Same here.
This will make the dome look even more empty with half of the teams in another place. Seems like the pit will be the main attraction with two fields and the robots housed.
If you really think about it. it will be 4 fields in the pits and 3 in the dome.
2 divisional fields and 2 practice fields.
Then the 2 divisional fields and the one Einstein.
Valkyrie133
05-04-2011, 20:32
I'm wondering if they'll change the time for the Dean's List presentation...any teams that have Dean's List students are going to want to be there, and it's currently scheduled for exactly the time that all the teams are supposed to switch fields...
BrendanB
05-04-2011, 20:32
If you really think about it. it will be 4 fields in the pits and 3 in the dome.
2 divisional fields and 2 practice fields.
Then the 2 divisional fields and the one Einstein.
I know that unfortunately. :o
I was commenting on how the dome will be quiet with half the teams and 2 less fields. If I was a visitor I wouldn't even bother hanging in the dome but rather go to the pits as that is where you have the best of both worlds: pits and qual fields.
Here is something new I just picked up on. He keeps saying qualification fields. Does that mean eliminations will be in the dome? I am very confuzzled.
JaneYoung
05-04-2011, 20:40
We should have a 'Steps Taken For FIRST' contest. Everyone wear a pedometer and keep a log of how many miles you walked at the St. Louis Championship. That could be a lot of fun. Do they make pedometers for robot carts?
Jane
P.S. What is this going to do to the whole "ROBOT" yell in the midst of an exodus? Create a chorus line?
We should have a 'Steps Taken For FIRST' contest. Everyone wear a pedometer and keep a log of how many miles you walked at the St. Louis Championship. That could be a lot of fun. Do they make pedometers for robot carts?
Jane
The only counting that'll be going on with me is the hundreds of times I will be counting to ten trying to lead these teams too the proper field amidst all the chaos FIRST has wrought.
Like many of the posters on this thread, I too am not pleased with this news. I hope there's another part of "the plan" that hasn't been unveiled yet, to take away this bitter taste of disappointment.
I loved the situation in the Georgia Dome. I loved being able to walk the oval and go from Curie to Archimedes to Newton to Galileo. I loved searching for my 'home regional' teams and visiting with them. I liked 'the intimacy' of each individual field, but I liked 'all of it together' in one spot. Common lighting, common seating, predictable restroom locations, overpriced food. I guess I will miss that.
But still...
My kids are stoked. No one on 1899 has been to CMP, ever... not the mentors, not the kids. This will be their first time... it might be their only time.
They are so looking forward to sharing the field with HOF teams, powerhouse teams, RCA winners, and regional winners from around the globe. They're excited about touring the pits and seeing these fantastic machines up close and personal, machines that they've only seen on webcasts or photos.
Without Atlanta as a reference, they will have a nice empty canvas to paint their own memories from this experience. I won't let this situation bring them down.
George A.
05-04-2011, 21:32
Who else is seriously concerned about the noise level in the pit/pit field area?
Took the words out of my mouth. Teams have a hard enough time hearing calls for their teams to report to the field in a normal pit environment. Add to that 2 actual competition fields with teams cheering and shouting? That's a nightmare waiting to happen.
And like many other people I'm curious as to how they decide who gets priority on the dome fields for the elimination matches on Saturday.
I'm willing to wait and give things a chance...but so far they aren't off to a very good start with the new venue.
ATannahill
05-04-2011, 21:37
Took the words out of my mouth. Teams have a hard enough time hearing calls for their teams to report to the field in a normal pit environment. Add to that 2 actual competition fields with teams cheering and shouting? That's a nightmare waiting to happen.
And like many other people I'm curious as to how they decide who gets priority on the dome fields for the elimination matches on Saturday.
I'm willing to wait and give things a chance...but so far they aren't off to a very good start with the new venue.
Unfortunately, calls are not made at the championship event.
To address the problem of transfering field information, why not just drag over the computer that is made to be portable? I believe theses are turned off overnight at each regional.
George A.
05-04-2011, 21:39
Unfortunately, calls are not made at the championship event.
To address the problem of transfering field information, why not just drag over the computer that is made to be portable? I believe theses are turned off overnight at each regional.
I didn't know that calls weren't made (I was either in the stands or on the field during qualifiers) and knowing this, the pit set up sounds even more of a logistical nightmare....although I do think I'll be right next to Don with some popcorn to watch the stampede.
just my two cents and not substantiated but i was told by shippers that the reasons for the multiple fields was the big, surprise musical act for the team party.
Katie_UPS
05-04-2011, 21:48
I'm not too pleased either; I loved everything about Atlanta... But this reminds me of when FIRST changed to districts for Michigan and everyone got in a huff about that too. That ended up working out with little complaint from people now-a-days. So I'm going to say what I said then:
FIRST encourages us to innovate and try new things, lets do the same for them.
Alan Anderson
05-04-2011, 21:52
I keep holding out hope that this is just a delayed action April Fools joke.
That was my immediate reaction as well.
I was told that one of the big reasons for choosing St. Louis over Indianapolis for the FIRST Championship was the difficulty of getting all the fields to fit in Lucas Oil Stadium and have good visibility and seating for Einstein without shortchanging the FLL and FTC programs. I'm sure that leaving out two of the FRC division fields would have satisfied that issue, but I'm just as sure that such a proposal would have been laughed down had anyone been silly enough to suggest it.
JaneYoung
05-04-2011, 22:04
just my two cents and not substantiated but i was told by shippers that the reasons for the multiple fields was the big, surprise musical act for the team party.
The big surprise musical act? Is that the same team party that follows the closing ceremonies? The ones that follow the World Championship? The World Championship that teams that are competing at paid lots of money to compete at?
Surely that can't be the reason.
Jane
To try and calm a few nerves, we were set up in a convention center at Smoky mountain regional and it was one of the best environments I have ever been in. The stands were comfortable and spacious and the pits that were set up right next to the playing field were spacious and the most quiet FIRST pits I have ever been in.
So if it's done properly the fears of the pit being too loud or not enough seating in the stands can be mitigated.
Now having said that: Why FIRST chose a venue that can't accommodate 6 fields + FTC is totally beyond me (well not totally but I won't speculate further.).
Kevin Kolodziej
05-04-2011, 22:23
At Disney, if my memory is correct...there were a couple of setups.
One was three stages (two small, one big) and teams rotated from small to big to make sure everyone got a chance to play on the big stage. There were reserved seating areas that teams had to rotate in and out of during/after their match. It worked well enough.
As Nationals got bigger, it turned into the main pit tent, two tents with fields, and Einstein Stage. Each field tent had two fields and each field was a division (Einstein was a division the first year, but only the first year...I think). I think this was the same setup in 2001 and 2002. Your division field was where you played most of your matches and was where the elims were held. Each division rotated to Einstein for an hour at a time I believe and I think everyone played two matches out there...not consecutively. Divisional seating was tiny... bleachers maybe had 15, 20 rows at max, and were the length of the field plus a bit more. ON ONE SIDE ONLY. I don't know how people watched matches (I was on the field), but that was part of the reason we're no longer at Disney. We got too big.
If the pit hall is anything like the Atlanta pits, I don't see how this will work. Traffic and queuing are going to be a mess (at least queuing in the dome, albeit LONG, was scenic), its going to be noisy, and seating will be nonexistent. Ceiling height could be an issue too (there are some human players with high throwing arcs). Will the pit fields have video production? Will they have a visible screen for teams to watch (drive teams especially?)?
I've never been in the EJD but if it is at least the same floor space as the Georgia Dome, there was plenty of wasted space that could have been put to better use. Not to mention that once FLL and FTC pack up, Einstein was left vacant for the better part of two days and the FTC space became a giant void. FIRST College could use Einstein if FRC fields are being moved for that.
Plus - no robot parade!?! This irks me...not just because we finally earned a spot in the would be parade this year, but because I loved seeing all the mascots, HOF teams, and RCA teams get their moment in the spotlight - the time for the teams that might not have the best robot but represent what FIRST is all about to be seen by all.
At least there's no Houston ramps to deal with....
just my two cents and not substantiated but i was told by shippers that the reasons for the multiple fields was the big, surprise musical act for the team party.
I'm getting an unpleasant image of the Championships becoming the "Super Bowl of Robotics", where advertising and a lame half time show dominate the actual competition.
But luckily it's just an image and the reality will be impressive teams doing impressive things in a spectacular competition (fingers crossed...)
Kevin Sevcik
05-04-2011, 22:31
It's certainly going to be annoying. I know we'll be hunting down our alliance mates for the first match or two after Friday noon just to make sure they're clued in. It could be a little worse, though. If I recall correctly, Disney involved multiple switches to the main field, not just one big switch over.
I'm definitely most concerned about all the implications of switching from one field to another in the middle of a regional. Different field, autonomous problems, possibly different staff and refs. It's either different refs, or refs that are also getting used to a different field and environment.
I'm not really enthusiastic about any of the other switchover logistics either. There's near zero chance they're going to bother switching over any of the video feed stuff on Friday, so teams recording will need to switch equipment from pits to dome fields. And the webcasts are probably going to be confusing thanks to that as well. Sponsors and friends back home are totally going to lose track of you over the Friday switch.
All in all, I have to agree with Karthik that I'd rather play on the pit field for the whole competition than have to deal with the hassle of switching fields. You can put me in the "Alright, we'll deal with it" camp. I'm not going to pretend like there's any possibility FIRST can somehow make this good. They've declared we're switching fields halfway through the competition, and by my definition that's a step down from Atlanta no matter how much they reduce the impact of it.
Justin Montois
05-04-2011, 22:32
Looking at the Agenda, I had this idea and it may be what FIRST is planning...
Thursday and Friday, FRC utilizes half of the dome and the pits for our qualification matches.
Thursday and Friday FLL and FTC use the other half of the dome for their qualification matches.
Friday at 5pm, after FTC has their alliance selections, Volunteers tear down the FLL and FTC fields, move 2 FTC fields to Einstein for their elimination matches Saturday morning, and set-up two FRC fields in their place for our divisional elimination matches.
This way by Saturday Morning FTC can have their elims on Einstein and we can return to our traditional Saturday format with all 4 fields in the dome plus Einstein.
I wouldn't really be happy about being bumped for Thursday and Friday but I understand that for FLL and FTC this is their Championship too.
If this is what FIRST is planning then I have to echo what others have said and don't have teams switch mid-day on Friday. Have half of us play in the pits all day Thursday. Then switch it up for Friday and then have everyone in the Dome on Saturday.
That really wouldn't be terrible.....
Kevin Sevcik
05-04-2011, 22:40
At least there's no Houston ramps to deal with....Oh man, does that hurt. Thanks for that one. I managed to miss all that as I was on the field running scoring, but I heard the stories of the shopping carts and all that. Fields in Reliant Stadium and Pits on the Astrodome floor has to be one of the top ten worst ideas FIRST has ever had.
For the record, that was entirely the brainchild of FIRST HQ. The Lone Star RD and Planning Committee tried to tell FIRST it was a horrible idea, but they went ahead with it anyways. I maintain that Houston could have hosted a great Championship that year in the Reliant Convention Center if FIRST hadn't been dead set on the idea of having the fields on a football stadium floor.
Kevin Sevcik
05-04-2011, 22:44
Friday at 5pm, after FTC has their alliance selections, Volunteers tear down the FLL and FTC fields, move 2 FTC fields to Einstein for their elimination matches Saturday morning, and set-up two FRC fields in their place for our divisional elimination matches.Sir, I submit that your proposed solution is, in fact, even worse than the assumption that two division will be playing elims in the pits. You really want to force half of the teams to adjust their robots to accommodate THREE different fields in a single competition? With no on field calibration time for two of them? That's bordering on perverse.
Dancin103
05-04-2011, 23:03
Switching fields?
Man I thought we left that crap back at Disneyworld. I don't know anyone who missed that nonsense.
If the Jones Dome wasn't big enough to hold four fields then why in the world did FIRST grant them the contract for three years?
Ed, you said it. Talk about MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR confusion. This is going to be a mess for everyone. It's just going to turn into a free for all.
Cass
Justin Montois
05-04-2011, 23:09
Sir, I submit that your proposed solution is, in fact, even worse than the assumption that two division will be playing elims in the pits. You really want to force half of the teams to adjust their robots to accommodate THREE different fields in a single competition? With no on field calibration time for two of them? That's bordering on perverse.
Sorry but it's looking like that's going to happen anyway. FTC and FLL will be done on Saturday. Do you think they are going to let half of the dome just sit there?
I think they are calling them Qualification fields for a reason, Elimination fields will be in the dome in my opinion. You better figure out how to calibrate your robot quickly...
*pleaseletthisbeanaprilfoolsjoke*pleaseletthisbean aprilfoolsjoke*pleaseletthisbeanaprilfoolsjoke*
:ahh:
just my two cents and not substantiated but i was told by shippers that the reasons for the multiple fields was the big, surprise musical act for the team party.
This would make sense as why the changes. What are the chances that the Black Eyes Peas are going to play for the wrap party? The space needed for their staging would easily take the space of 2 fields.
Maybe the "Peas" will bring some of their friends, just imagine Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga playing at an FIRST event!
Just a word of advice to all teams attending. Make sure that your robot will pass inspection. With only part of Wednesday evening and 1/2 day Thursday it will be tough on the inspectors. The sooner that you get inspection started the better chance you will have of playing.
Tristan Lall
05-04-2011, 23:41
This would make sense as why the changes. What are the chances that the Black Eyes Peas are going to play for the wrap party? The space needed for their staging would easily take the space of 2 fields.
Maybe the "Peas" will bring some of their friends, just imagine Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga playing at an FIRST event!Anyone remember Mandy Moore, circa 2002?
Everybody walked out. I don't know if she was good or bad; the teams were generally interested in the free food located beyond the gates of the EPCOT Center, and started evacuating the stadium as she performed her set. It must have been a bit disconcerting for the performers.
I do suspect that there is a valid logistical reason for this; I just hope it's all worth it. FIRST, send more details!
And I echo all the comments about Houston and Orlando—except that I think that in 1999, there were only two fields: a large bandshell for Einstein, and a small one for Newton, both outdoors.
If the pit hall is anything like the Atlanta pits, I don't see how this will work. Traffic and queuing are going to be a mess (at least queuing in the dome, albeit LONG, was scenic), its going to be noisy, and seating will be nonexistent. Ceiling height could be an issue too (there are some human players with high throwing arcs).
Height shouldn't be an issue; there's a 2nd floor, just not in the convention hall areas. There's actually what looks like a sort of press box above Hall 4.
The halls are laid out in a reverse L shape.
1__2__3__4
..............5
Noise will be an issue. There better be seating in there...
My bet is that Halls 4 and 5 will be used for the pit fields; Halls 1-3 will be the rest of the pits (including practice fields).
BrendanB
06-04-2011, 00:09
Could FIRST be dealing with a space issue on the dome floor? Based on these pictures Atlanta has more of an oval shape compared to Edward's rectangle which looks like an issue when trying to have 6 fields operating independantly.
St. Louis: http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnGpcoahS9RRXWsQx6L7DsFPN3j78rd A5CV8_RntE4imN92VYY&t=1
Atlanta:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_x2NwiFwMadw/SZxiEF0RfvI/AAAAAAAAB64/QSjiSXNkmvM/s400/ATLANTA+-+Georgia+Dome.jpg
Just some thoughts to be considering with a new event/arena.
s_forbes
06-04-2011, 00:15
Height shouldn't be an issue; there's a 2nd floor, just not in the convention hall areas. There's actually what looks like a sort of press box above Hall 4.
The halls are laid out in a reverse L shape.
1__2__3__4
..............5
Noise will be an issue. There better be seating in there...
My bet is that Halls 4 and 5 will be used for the pit fields; Halls 1-3 will be the rest of the pits (including practice fields).
Where did you get this info? I couldn't find a floor plan for the entire center (not just the dome).
David Brinza
06-04-2011, 00:20
just my two cents and not substantiated but i was told by shippers that the reasons for the multiple fields was the big, surprise musical act for the team party.
Nah, no way the brain-trust of FIRST believes our teams would want to compete in FRC's "showcase event" in a rag-tag fashion just so we can adore a performing artist at the end.
No way!
Oh, that's right, Dave and Woodie left the GDC, never mind...
dtengineering
06-04-2011, 00:31
I wonder if it was a poor choice of words for Bill to say the playing fields will be "in the pits." Perhaps, "near the pits" would have been a better choice. In Seattle this year, for instance, both fields were "in the pits", seperated by just a curtain. And it worked great. There was sufficient bleacher space, but not the empty voids of the upper levels of Key Arena from previous years.
I also played at a regional (GTR several years ago) where you alternated playing fields randomly from match to match. It wasn't that big of a deal. I'm sure teams can figure out how to move from one field to another at a pre-determined time. If they can't, then... well, "super bowl of smarts" is a bit of a misnomer, don't you think?
Sure, Atlanta was a great setup. This isn't Atlanta. Some things may be better, some may be worse, but as much as I've disagreed with some of the decisions made by the FIRST board in the past, FRC has continued to grow and continued to provide students with an awesome experience. These people are competent and make pretty good decisions most of the time.
So maybe it will be the worst championship ever, twenty-three people will die in the stampede from pit to field at lunch on Friday, everyone will agree that it was really not worth attending, and no one will ever go to championships again for the next two years... but do you really, REALLY think so?
Easy for me to say, of course... I'm not going... but the level of doom and gloom here just seems a bit over the top. The FIRST board usually has a good reason for what they do... even when some of us don't necessarily agree with them.
Jason
The Lucas
06-04-2011, 00:40
Anyone remember Mandy Moore, circa 2002?
Ya, one guy on our team was a big fan and threw his MOE shirt on the stage :D The reaction of everyone else on the team was the same: "You could have traded that shirt, the is no way that Mandy keeps that shirt!". I felt the need to lighten up this thread a bit;) I think a big musical act would have better success this time around since the choices are different. Last time, it was Mandy vs. EPCOT (w/ free food) exclusively open to FIRST Teams. This time if it is Black Eyed Peas vs. go back to the hotel, I think most teams will choose Black Eyed Peas. Black Eyed Peas are bigger than Mandy Moore ever was (just played Super Bowl) and I think teams that would normally leave when not selected in Elims would stay for a concert, creating to a larger crowd. Unfortunately, that crowd might be an issue for teams returning to the dome after playing their Elim matches in the pits :(
Looking at the floor plan for America's Center (http://www.explorestlouis.com/pdfs/meetings/AmericasCenterBrochure.pdf), I wonder which halls they would use for the fields? Obviously, Einstein and 2 Qual Fields will be in Hall 6 (EJ Dome). Possible places I guess the other Fields could be:
-Hall 5: This would consolidate the Volunteers and Security around Hall 5, the Annex and the EJ Dome.
-Hall 3 or 4: Fields as bookends to the pits. Possibly better noise isolation and traffic flow around the fields. FTC & FLL pits might be closer to the EJ Dome where they are presumably playing their matches.
My best guess is Hall 5, what do you guys think?
Black Eyed Peas are bigger than Mandy Moore ever was (just played Super Bowl) and I think teams that would normally leave when not selected in Elims would stay for a concert, creating to a larger crowd. Unfortunately, that crowd might be an issue for teams returning to the dome after playing their Elim matches in the pits :(
Somehow, in view of recent Super Bowl half time shows, I don't think that participating in one is necessarily a good recommendation, especially for a "family" event.
Where did you get this info? I couldn't find a floor plan for the entire center (not just the dome).
I was at a conference in the America's Center a couple winters ago. Food was in Hall 5, seating in Hall 4 (and some of 3), and exhibits and stuff like that were in 1, 2, and 3. Main speaking area was in the Arena.
If they've fully changed that over, I'd be beyond shocked.
I'm with Lucas on where the fields will probably be. Hall 5, maybe 4 for overflow. The only other thing that might make sense would be 1 and 2 for getting visitors coming in that entrance.
synth3tk
06-04-2011, 08:46
Black Eyed Peas are bigger than Mandy Moore ever was (just played Super Bowl)
Did you watch the Super Bowl? You'd be proud of that trainwreck of a live performance playing at Championships? In fact, any of the last couple Super Bowl performers sucked worse than a brand-new vacuum cleaner.
I'd choose Mandy Moore over the Black Eyed Peas any day. But that's just me.
JohnBoucher
06-04-2011, 08:56
just my two cents and not substantiated but i was told by shippers that the reasons for the multiple fields was the big, surprise musical act for the team party.
Have the wrap party at the same venue as the finals? That means all those people will be descending on the party at once. What a disaster.
Remember when they announced Rack'N'Roll tubes would be available to take AFTER the finals were over. Hundreds of students poured onto the field then.
thefro526
06-04-2011, 08:59
From what I read, Bill's Blog didn't mention anything about field swapping on Saturday.
I think that the switch on Friday is to allow FTC and FLL to run in the dome on Friday, (Figure FTC takes up the space of two FRC fields now, and FLL is run on Einstein) and they should be wrapped up by Saturday morning, allowing all 4 divisions to run in the dome.
Just a thought.
Have the wrap party at the same venue as the finals? That means all those people will be descending on the party at once. What a disaster.
Remember when they announced Rack'N'Roll tubes would be available to take AFTER the finals were over. Hundreds of students poured onto the field then.
Yeah I remember that announcement. But my team was focused on staying together so I couldn't get any.
rees2001
06-04-2011, 09:29
Please try to keep an open mind when it comes to Championship. Some things to think about, some have been said some not.
1. This may be YOUR 5th - 10th trip to Championship/Nationals, this may be the 1st and only trip form many teams & kids. Let everyone play in the dome. If that means you to calibrate your robot for 2 different fields, do so without huge complaint. Know that some kid will walk into the dome and it will be the coolest thing that his team gets to play there!
2. Most of your team doesn't have to wait until noon exactly to move. Unless you have the last match on that field then you do. Most people will transition after thier last match ends on that field. Yes I know scouting will be a pain.
3. No robot parade? This does seem like a downer, especially for teams that finally earned the right to walk in it. Have they always had the parade? I don't remember one before Atlanta? I think the logistics of walking teams around that large of a space it just a bit difficult.
4. I wouldn't be surprised to se only 2 fields in the dome and not 2 plus Einstein. By looking at the schedule it would seem all elimination matches will be on 2 fields. Don't get any crazy ideas about 16 teams per division playing it out. This is probably the reason for qualification matches ending at 10:30 not noon.
5. The convention center is pretty big. http://www.explorestlouis.com/meetings/centerTour/index.asp If you take the photo tour you can see some size. The space for 4 & 5 are almost the same as the Dome Floor itself. You could easily fit 2 fields & bleachers in there. This keeps all fields somewhat together. Look at the specs that Lucas posted for the number of 10X10 booths you can fit in each hall. They can probably close off part of a wall to reduce the noise from one section to another. They did this at Chesapeake and it helped a ton!
6. Number of teams, last time I checked there were only around 300 teams on the list. That number will grow after this weekend but by how many? Even if there are 320 teams thats 80 teams to a division. Big but not huge.
Guys, the past is behind us, lets look forward to a great event. Instead of pointing out the possible flaws and complaining, lets see if we can help FIRST make this an awesome event.
Chris is me
06-04-2011, 09:33
One schedule thing I'm curious about.
Who in first honestly and firmly believes that the finals on Einstein will take only two hours? It's scheduled like that every year, but I have never been to the Championship when that was the case.
Jared Russell
06-04-2011, 10:05
One schedule thing I'm curious about.
Who in first honestly and firmly believes that the finals on Einstein will take only two hours? It's scheduled like that every year, but I have never been to the Championship when that was the case.
The power of wishful thinking!
Speaking of wishful thinking...do teams who make it to Einstein get any chance to do calibration on the new field? It would be a shame to see robots dropping ubertubes or slamming into walls on FIRST's grandest stage because the dimensions or lighting are slightly off.
thefro526
06-04-2011, 10:15
The power of wishful thinking!
Speaking of wishful thinking...do teams who make it to Einstein get any chance to do calibration on the new field? It would be a shame to see robots dropping ubertubes or slamming into walls on FIRST's grandest stage because the dimensions or lighting are slightly off.
Hasn't FIRST allowed this in Previous years? I thought they did, or at least in years when teams actually used the CMU Cam (2006/2007)
The big surprise musical act? Is that the same team party that follows the closing ceremonies? The ones that follow the World Championship? The World Championship that teams that are competing at paid lots of money to compete at?
Surely that can't be the reason.
We have seen a good deal of evidence that FIRST is very starry-eyed about entertainment celebrity. There is no venue other than the dome for a large-scale concert that everyone could attend. We all know who is performing, and we are now learning what it will cost us. (Sorry, Jane - I do believe that this IS the reason.)
I've always thought that he FIRST Championship was slightly more about sponsors, media, publicity and VIPs than about young students and their experience.
I very much hope that the "Finale" event will have the party atmosphere where everyone can interact with everyone else that it has in the post-Epcot years.
Regardless, this will be our first time to the Championship in several years. We will keep a positive attitude and I'm sure we'll all have a great time.
-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox
David Brinza
06-04-2011, 13:30
Speculation is running rampant in this thread regarding a "big musical act" in the Dome following the finals.
There's some evidence to support this: a post indicating the fields were configured to accommodate a stage, a lack of information regarding the finale, (normally the hotel package includes admission to the finale event - no mention of that on the Steele Meetings site), and Dean's promise at kickoff of seeing Will.I.Am later this year.
If we're going to be "entertained" in the Dome after the finals, what are the implications?
Here are a few worth considering:
The weather in St. Louis is unpredictable. I know, I lived there for 18 years. Conditions might be beautiful, but it might just be cold and rainy in late April. Having the finale inside the Dome takes weather out of the equation.
In past years, I've seen teams streaming out of the Georgia Dome before the Finals were even finished. (Maybe they didn't want to stand in line for cold food?) That wouldn't happen if the "show" stayed in the Dome.
What about Dean's homework? Are we attracting spectators to FIRST events who are NOT part of a team? A free concert could certainly boost the crowd in the Dome. But will those spectators be engaged by the robotics competition or the FIRST program? Or worse, could this create crowd control and security issues?
Whatever is planned for after the Finals, I hope FIRST remembers the teams come to Championship to compete. Teams work hard to raise funds, build robots, and work around school schedules to travel to FIRST's showcase event. If teams leave feeling as if the matches were downplayed in importance at the event, then Championship might lose some of it's luster.
JohnBoucher
06-04-2011, 14:57
Speculation is running rampant in this thread regarding a "big musical act" in the Dome following the finals.
There's some evidence to support this: a post indicating the fields were configured to accommodate a stage, a lack of information regarding the finale, (normally the hotel package includes admission to the finale event - no mention of that on the Steele Meetings site), and Dean's promise at kickoff of seeing Will.I.Am later this year.
If we're going to be "entertained" in the Dome after the finals, what are the implications?
Here are a few worth considering:
The weather in St. Louis is unpredictable. I know, I lived there for 18 years. Conditions might be beautiful, but it might just be cold and rainy in late April. Having the finale inside the Dome takes weather out of the equation.
In past years, I've seen teams streaming out of the Georgia Dome before the Finals were even finished. (Maybe they didn't want to stand in line for cold food?) That wouldn't happen if the "show" stayed in the Dome.
What about Dean's homework? Are we attracting spectators to FIRST events who are NOT part of a team? A free concert could certainly boost the crowd in the Dome. But will those spectators be engaged by the robotics competition or the FIRST program? Or worse, could this create crowd control and security issues?
Whatever is planned for after the Finals, I hope FIRST remembers the teams come to Championship to compete. Teams work hard to raise funds, build robots, and work around school schedules to travel to FIRST's showcase event. If teams leave feeling as if the matches were downplayed in importance at the event, then Championship might lose some of it's luster.
A security nightmare if true. Competition has always been open to the public. It would be impossible to keep the plans secret.
Because of the timing this year, we are having a hard time getting students excused from school. AP exams begin the following week, and teachers, parents, and the students are having reservations about missing the review. I wish that FIRST would keep the focus on them, but I agree with the poster above who said that the focus seems to be changing. It's too bad, because the kids put time into it for the payoff of the matches, not a concert.
thefro526
06-04-2011, 15:18
What about Dean's homework? Are we attracting spectators to FIRST events who are NOT part of a team? A free concert could certainly boost the crowd in the Dome. But will those spectators be engaged by the robotics competition or the FIRST program? Or worse, could this create crowd control and security issues?
I hope that no one takes this the wrong way, but:
If I or my team are unable to find seats for the finals because there are hundreds or thousands of spectator that just came to see Will.I.Am or whatever performer, perform - I'm going to start looking into other programs, after raising all hell.
Seriously, I feel that it's disrespectful to teams to move fields around just to make room for some entertainer. Teams are going to COMPETE and paid a lot of money and worked extremely hard to do so - the only thing that a live musical guest is going to do is piss a ton of people off - including myself.
If anything, moving fields around or out of the dome to make room for a large stage for Entertainment seems to go against everything that FIRST says that their for. I thought we were going to change the culture, not have the culture change us.
I don't see why they don't have the Finale Party inside of the same building in which the pits are housed, I'm sure there will be an open room or two that are large enough to accommodate everyone along with a decent sized stage. I'm pretty sure this is what was done in Atlanta when the weather was too nasty for people to be outside.
I would agree that moving competition fields around for an entertainer is pretty distasteful, if that is what is happening. If they are giving FLL / FTC a bigger stage for Friday, that seems understandable.
If they have a big name entertainer there to draw people in during the finals, is that going to result in a significant number of people joining FIRST programs? I'd guess that the organizers asked that question and determined that the answer was "yes" and planned their logistics accordingly.
Chris is me
06-04-2011, 16:23
I don't know why everyone's running with the "FIRST has a big performer coming!" rumor, but right now it is nothing more than pure speculation, with no evidence to suggest that is what happening. Let's wait to criticize FIRST on that issue until it actually happens...
Katie_UPS
06-04-2011, 16:24
Because of the timing this year, we are having a hard time getting students excused from school. AP exams begin the following week, and teachers, parents, and the students are having reservations about missing the review. I wish that FIRST would keep the focus on them, but I agree with the poster above who said that the focus seems to be changing. It's too bad, because the kids put time into it for the payoff of the matches, not a concert.
Our team (and I assume many others) is having the same problem with our IB. Roughly 24 hours after we get home from St. Louis, our seniors have to take their first exam. Not to mention we're missing reviews that will cover the two-three years of content on the exams. Luckily, the seniors on our team have already prepared for this: we're having our own study/review sessions.
It would be pretty nice if FIRST could accomodate for these very expensive and important tests. As is, FIRST doesn't give me college credit :/
Nick Lawrence
06-04-2011, 16:25
April 20 can't come soon enough...
-Nick
Nuttyman54
06-04-2011, 16:29
Update on the blog:
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/04/cmp-confusion.html#links
I sincerely hope the reason they only have 3 fields in the dome is NOT for the entertainment reasons stated above.
Nick Lawrence
06-04-2011, 16:32
Update on the blog:
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/04/cmp-confusion.html#links
I sincerely hope the reason they only have 3 fields in the dome is NOT for the entertainment reasons stated above.
After reading this I'm seriously thinking champs is just going to be a mess. The focus clearly isn't on the competition anymore...
-Nick
Chris is me
06-04-2011, 16:37
I like how there's an available field on the Dome floor they're not using.
Justin Montois
06-04-2011, 16:45
I can't believe that some teams will win their division on a field in the pits. Oh, and bleacher seats are most comfortable. 86 teams on two spans of bleachers? Oh joy.
Horrible.
I like how there's an available field on the Dome floor they're not using.
How is this any different than Atlanta?
George A.
06-04-2011, 16:46
After reading the update to the blog, I'm even more upset/worried about the Championship.
He clarified and said that Eliminations will be held in the pits? How do we decide which to divisions are relegated to the pits, and which two get the "high profile" (his words) fields in the dome? Granted it's an honor to compete in the Championships, but the fact that half of the competitions will be behind the scenes and not in plain view for spectators is kind of contrary to the point isn't it?
And I also agree with Dustin in the fact that if we are going through this rigamaroll all because a musical group has to have a certain sized stage for their closing act...then we might be more lost than originally anticipated.
JohnBoucher
06-04-2011, 16:48
The only thing we know for sure is that someone at HQ is reading ChiefDelphi and is taking it seriously. That's FANTASTIC!!!!!
Chris is me
06-04-2011, 16:48
How is this any different than Atlanta?
In Atlanta they don't need to shuttle people to the pits to play matches?
The bleacher set up they have advertised is a smaller version of the bleachers at the CT regional. These bleachers were not big enough for only 60 teams.
All the speculation about why there are real fields in the pits is basically unfounded, but no matter the reason it comes down to this for me:
FRC is FIRST's marquee event. I appreciate that FTC and FLL kids put a ton of work into their respective events, but if FIRST wants to be big time, be on major television networks and get the kind of exposure real sports get, they need to have their marquee program front and center. ESPN is not going to waste half a second thinking about putting some boring FTC bots on live (or tape delayed) TV.
So essentially regardless of the reason for the move of 2 fields, FIRST should have done whatever it took, including the removal of FTC/FLL from the dome entirely, to keep all 4 divisions in the dome.
$0.02
In Atlanta they don't need to shuttle people to the pits to play matches?
The bleacher set up they have advertised is a smaller version of the bleachers at the CT regional. These bleachers were not big enough for only 60 teams.
Your first question has nothing to do about Einstien being used for FLL just like it always has and I saw nothing indicating the size of the bleachers just somebodies speculation.
There is a whole lot of wild speculation being done here.
Mike Soukup
06-04-2011, 16:58
The qualification/elimination match fields will have bleachers on the two long sides
I'm certainly going to miss the comfy chairs of the dome when we move to the "intimate" setting of the pits. It's going to be tough to sit and scout all day on the pit fields. Assuming of course, our team finds a place to sit.
Jared Russell
06-04-2011, 16:59
All the speculation about why there are real fields in the pits is basically unfounded, but no matter the reason it comes down to this for me:
FRC is FIRST's marquee event. I appreciate that FTC and FLL kids put a ton of work into their respective events, but if FIRST wants to be big time, be on major television networks and get the kind of exposure real sports get, they need to have their marquee program front and center. ESPN is not going to waste half a second thinking about putting some boring FTC bots on live (or tape delayed) TV.
So essentially regardless of the reason for the move of 2 fields, FIRST should have done whatever it took, including the removal of FTC/FLL from the dome entirely, to keep all 4 divisions in the dome.
$0.02
Absolutely, 100% in agreement. The grand irony is that FLL/FTC is a lot easier to watch (IMO) in a tighter environment anyhow...
nikeairmancurry
06-04-2011, 17:00
I wanted to see an update from Bill saying, that they considered changing this, but I suppose its not going to happen...
I feel this is a 10 steps back for FIRST... Can someone just explain why this is happening?? Take away the speculations and just give answers! I'm highly upset that if my team qualifies for Championship this weekend, that we only have half a weekend in the dome! This change wasn't needed!! I love the idea of not having to go far for matches, because the walk in Atlanta was rediculas, but why cause others to get a better effect of Championship then others? One thing I loved doing the last 5 years has walking from from field to field to see the action.. And now they tell me I can only watch 2?? In one place?? Plus the effect is lost somewhere in the field shuffling.. This is bad.. FIRST needs to highly reconsidered this quickly.. Or Championships next year might have a good drop in attendance...
Who's excited that he's only toting the robot 1/4-mile for HALF of the matches?
<==== This guy!
Well, except we'll get a few more qual matches (doh!) so it evens out to what it was in Atlanta. Also, as a guy who's usually in the pits/on field for ALL of the championships up until the end of quals, I'm personally very glad to have a short commute to at least one of the playing fields if I get a brief respite. FIRST was even generous to bless me with TWO options! Alright, maybe the excitement IS overstated, yet these small things (to me) balance out the supposed logistic nightmare. The average team will have enough of their wits about them to be able to switch robot toting paths. As for scouts -- that's self explanatory: if your scouts are any good at scouting, then they're obviously intelligent enough to figure out the swap as well. So really it's about moving over all of the team's "fans".
Cory, you have a very good point IMO. We'll have to wait and see what the real reason is.
BrendanB
07-04-2011, 10:33
There is a whole lot of wild speculation being done here.
Agreed! No one has mentioned the size of the bleachers or how many will be on each side. I also love how everyone has dragged Will.I.Am into the reason why they are changing the setup. Stop speculating.
This is obviously something FIRST is going full steam ahead with for STL and there is nothing we can do about it unfortunately.
Jessica Boucher
07-04-2011, 11:16
I also love how everyone has dragged Will.I.Am into the reason why they are changing the setup. Stop speculating.
But Fergie revealed a Lego Dress last weekend! OMG it must mean they're coming!
</sarcasm>
Google it if you want, but it would need to be ahem, lengthened, for the FIRST Community. The timing, though, is hilarious.
This tread is starting to sound like a championship version of the game hint. I think that we ought to take the first letter of every sentence of the blog and see if it is a secret code. (kidding) Everybody needs to take a step back and a deep breath and wait till April 20th. All the doom and gloom that is being stated is being based on facts not in evidence. I have a lot of faith in Bill and the First Championship Planning Committee. Give them the benefit of the doubt. They have a very difficult job. Save any criticism till after the event.
BrendanB
07-04-2011, 11:39
But Fergie revealed a Lego Dress last weekend! OMG it must mean they're coming!
</sarcasm>
Google it if you want, but it would need to be ahem, lengthened, for the FIRST Community. The timing, though, is hilarious.
Fergie, legos, FLL, Black Eyed Peas, Will i am, ... they ARE coming! ;)
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/fergies-legos-dress
jvriezen
07-04-2011, 12:25
I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but more than enough to chime in. I'm very saddened by many of the complaints I read here.
What is FIRST? "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology."
From the web site:
Vision
"To transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders."
Mission
"Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership."
One of the often stated goals is to inspire kids to take an interest in engineering fields. I suspect everyone that cares enough about FIRST to read this thread (and this post) is already inspired. FIRST has accomplished their goal with respect to you.
When I first saw Will.i.am at kickoff and Dean alluded to seeing him again later, my first thought was that their would be a free (or nearly free, perhaps a food shelf donation) concert at St. Louis. Or perhaps for the general public to get into the concert you have to visit the pits and get your ticket stamped by 20 teams after seeing their bot. At the concert you'd also get to see matches played. This would be a great way to get kids in the St. Louis area who have no idea about engineering and only care about pop music and bounce, bounce, pass exposed to FIRST and engineering.
FIRST is not about all about you and your experience and whether your experience is maximized. Would you rather have a great personal experience or would you rather know that your team was instrumental in getting hundreds of Will.i.am kids involved in FIRST who may not have had any previous idea or inkling about the wonders of engineering?
The notion that the dome should be reserved for FRC, and push FLL or FTC to smaller venues is pretty selfish. You know how exciting and important you feel competing under a dome (well some of you do.) How much more exciting and encouraging do you think it is for a 4th or 5th grader? If you get a 4th grader excited and that excitement rubs off on her classmates for the next 8 years, is that not better than a sophmore who will have less influence on an older set of peers for a shorter time?
If the St. Loius model (what ever it turns out to be) had been the 'norm' for the last seven or ten years, everyone would be ecstatic to be going to CMP, and there would be little complaining.
Get over yourselves. Its not all about you.
John Vriezen
Team 2530 "Inconceivable"
Mentor, Drive Coach, Inspector
Stu Bloom
07-04-2011, 12:33
... Get over yourselves. Its not all about you. I think that's just a bit harsh John ;) ... but well said!
I think there might be something else going on here, besides what people are suspecting.
FRC has 3 fields. Presumably, one of them is Einstein field. Traditionally, FLL plays on Einstein Thursday and Friday, then on Saturday the field is turned over to FRC crews to put everything in that needs to go in. FLL is even bigger than FRC internationally. I might suspect space for a few more tables.
FTC has had the space of another field, traditionally. That gives them two fields. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see them with a larger area.
But that's only half the floor space... what could go in the other half?
How about 1-3 fields for the FIRST College Pilot competition? I don't remember offhand how big those fields are supposed to be--but when you have aerial vehicles, you need extra space, for the protective netting, if nothing else.
How about a dedicated FLL space? As in, not shared with FRC? More FLL matches is not a bad thing!
How about volunteer food? (Actually... If I was FIRST, I'd put that elsewhere. Can't have the mass of hungry high school students trying to raid the volunteer food.)
There are also a couple other places to consider that I haven't heard anything about. The America's Ballroom (2nd floor) is large enough to host FTC or FLL, pits and all. I doubt they'll be up there, though. There's also a theater in the building that could accommodate either one (though without the pits). Again, I doubt they'll be in there.
BrendanB
07-04-2011, 12:52
I think there might be something else going on here, besides what people are suspecting.
FRC has 3 fields. Presumably, one of them is Einstein field. Traditionally, FLL plays on Einstein Thursday and Friday, then on Saturday the field is turned over to FRC crews to put everything in that needs to go in. FLL is even bigger than FRC internationally. I might suspect space for a few more tables.
FTC has had the space of another field, traditionally. That gives them two fields. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see them with a larger area.
But that's only half the floor space... what could go in the other half?
How about 1-3 fields for the FIRST College Pilot competition? I don't remember offhand how big those fields are supposed to be--but when you have aerial vehicles, you need extra space, for the protective netting, if nothing else.
How about a dedicated FLL space? As in, not shared with FRC? More FLL matches is not a bad thing!
How about volunteer food? (Actually... If I was FIRST, I'd put that elsewhere. Can't have the mass of hungry high school students trying to raid the volunteer food.)
There are also a couple other places to consider that I haven't heard anything about. The America's Ballroom (2nd floor) is large enough to host FTC or FLL, pits and all. I doubt they'll be up there, though. There's also a theater in the building that could accommodate either one (though without the pits). Again, I doubt they'll be in there.
I agree that FTC and FLL especially need more space, FLL is growing so much faster than any other program. FLL has had to cut back a ton over the years with not every state attending the Championship every year with the number of international teams expanding at a rapid rate.
FIRST college competition? I haven't seen or heard anything about that officially, just a thread on CD months ago.
FIRST college competition? I haven't seen or heard anything about that officially, just a thread on CD months ago.
I've had a look at their rulebook (admittedly several months ago). 3 different competitions, all with a required air vehicle and 2 of the 3 with an optional ground vehicle. IIRC, they were planning to compete in St. Louis with everybody else. And from what I remember, it's a really showy field--just the sort of thing you'd want out in the middle of the action.
But if you're going to have aerial vehicles indoors, and you don't have some form of safety netting, you should really think about getting some.
BrendanB
07-04-2011, 13:02
I've had a look at their rulebook (admittedly several months ago). 3 different competitions, all with a required air vehicle and 2 of the 3 with an optional ground vehicle. IIRC, they were planning to compete in St. Louis with everybody else. And from what I remember, it's a really showy field--just the sort of thing you'd want out in the middle of the action.
But if you're going to have aerial vehicles indoors, and you don't have some form of safety netting, you should really think about getting some.
Sounds cool! Thanks Eric!
Nuttyman54
07-04-2011, 13:11
Mission
"Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership."
One of the often stated goals is to inspire kids to take an interest in engineering fields. I suspect everyone that cares enough about FIRST to read this thread (and this post) is already inspired. FIRST has accomplished their goal with respect to you.
When I first saw Will.i.am at kickoff and Dean alluded to seeing him again later, my first thought was that their would be a free (or nearly free, perhaps a food shelf donation) concert at St. Louis. Or perhaps for the general public to get into the concert you have to visit the pits and get your ticket stamped by 20 teams after seeing their bot. At the concert you'd also get to see matches played. This would be a great way to get kids in the St. Louis area who have no idea about engineering and only care about pop music and bounce, bounce, pass exposed to FIRST and engineering.
FIRST is not about all about you and your experience and whether your experience is maximized. Would you rather have a great personal experience or would you rather know that your team was instrumental in getting hundreds of Will.i.am kids involved in FIRST who may not have had any previous idea or inkling about the wonders of engineering?
FIRST may not be about maximizing any one particular person's experience, but they are about maximizing the experience of their target audience and customers. FIRST's biggest recruiting tool is not a single high-profile event with pop stars, it's all the teams and the students and mentors on those teams going out in to the community and making targeted pitches.
To that end, the complaint is that FIRST would be sacrificing their current customer's enjoyment to try and expose the program to prospective customers, and in doing so may be hurting their own efforts. If teams come back from champs feeling like FIRST doesn't care about them, they're going to have a much harder time getting enthused to go recruit and to inspire their own teams.
Teams are paying a lot of money to attend this event, and most of are doing that under the premise that they can use this to wow and inspire their own students. As much as they might support FIRST's mission to recruit new members, I highly doubt they're willing to spend that money so that others can enjoy a free concert and maybe see what's going on.
The bottom line is, the teams are the paying customers of FIRST, and FIRST needs to respect that. Getting to the championships is the goal of almost every team in first; it gives them something to work towards, it's the crowning achievement of a season. To get there and feel like you have to take a back seat to some big show that FIRST has organized undermines that entirely. These students are attending under the premise that they are the main attraction.
I believe it would be extremely counter-productive to FIRST's goals to push FRC fields out of the dome for an entertainment show. They keep telling us we need to celebrate and idolize engineers, but then they make those take a back seat to a rock star...it seems kind of hypocritical. I refuse to believe that FIRST is really that ignorant.
Edit: EricH, I really hope you're right about expanding programs needing more space, and showcasing CollegeFIRST. That makes much more sense to me than some big show. If they need to put the wrap party indoors for weather reasons, perhaps they put that in one of the conference halls and moved FLL or FTC on to the dome floor.
Kims Robot
07-04-2011, 13:14
I'm glad a few people beat me to the "Stop Whining" punch...
The fact is, people are resistant to change. Everything is new. FIRST has changed the venue, thus it is going to create change... nearly everyone here seems to think change is bad.
Heck my first thought was "ugh we have to lug our scouting setup halfway through the day on friday, and gosh, during the Deans List presentation! how rude!"... but then I immediately volunteered to organize a group of 3 of us to do it so the rest of the team could go see the Dean's list presentation.
My second thought was exactly JesseK's "SWEET, I can be in both the pits and at the scouting/matches at the same time!! I dont have to walk a bazillion miles for every match!"
Its new... Its different... LIVE WITH IT. It may not be so bad!
FIRST has their reasons (which we dont know yet), and I'm sure 3 years from now we will find something else to whine and complain about and will forget that we even had a time before there were 3 fields in the Dome.... :D
Don't get me wrong, healthy conversation & concern can be useful and has helped bring about some great changes... but when after a hundred posts it winds down to people bashing FIRST for decisions we don't even know about, random speculation and whining... well its just not productive anymore. If you really have a concern or issue, have your team leader email FIRST to bring it up. If you are just concerned that it wont be glamorous enough, well just wait and see. It might be better than you think.
Justin Montois
07-04-2011, 13:30
I'm glad a few people beat me to the "Stop Whining" punch...
I see your point, maybe there has been a little bit of whining going on but I think it's understandable.
Teams work hard to raise the money to go to Championship. It's our money that makes it possible for us to rent out an awesome venue like the Georgia Dome and the Edward Jones Dome. We give that money to FIRST and they are choosing how to spend OUR money. I think what has people most upset is just the plain lack of explanation. If it wasn't our money then we would have no right to complain. But it is our money and we are spending A LOT of it and I think we deserved better then a HUGE change with ZERO explanation.
It might be great, it might not, at the very least we should have gotten some sort of explanation.
I think it's sad that the only benefit we've been able to find out of this whole situation is the walk to the field from the pits is shorter...
A collegiate showcase would be very cool. I am hoping that the extra space they're freeing up is for something robot and student related as opposed to something pop culture related.
Techhexium
07-04-2011, 13:37
How about 1-3 fields for the FIRST College Pilot competition? I don't remember offhand how big those fields are supposed to be--but when you have aerial vehicles, you need extra space, for the protective netting, if nothing else.
I remember the FIRST College Pilot Manual said that the fields are standard sized FRC fields 27 ft by 54 ft. So there are six FRC sized fields. I think there 6 or 12 teams competing in the pilot competition.
JohnBoucher
07-04-2011, 14:21
I agree about the whining, but for the most part this thread has been good questions and speculations.
Please don't forget, the teams are the customers and FIRST is the vendor. FIRST has an obligation to communicate to the customer when changes to the product are being made.
jvriezen
07-04-2011, 15:30
Please don't forget, the teams are the customers and FIRST is the vendor. FIRST has an obligation to communicate to the customer when changes to the product are being made.
I don't really see it that way at all. FIRST is a non-profit organization, and all of us are members of that organization, not customers. Yes, we have to make payments (fees) to participate in various events, whether regionals or CMP. I believe FIRST *did* communicate a change to the product (hence this thread), and it was primarily a logistical one (moving fields and swapping fields), not a substantive one. The fundamental aspects of 'the product' haven't changed... You get to compete with all the regional winners, chairman's winner's etc. The field will still be 27'x54' just as you expected.
Now, if they said we don't have time/space to run Einstein so we'll just have four co-champion alliances, or if they said the fields will be under water, that would be a change to product :-)
The rules include a section on Tournaments, and I think most, if not all of those rules (include informing you of changes via Team updates and Q&A) are still applicable --
If they answered all the questions being raised here, those answers would elicit a bunch more questions. I suspect they don't even know all the answers to the first order questions yet, as Bill alluded to in his blog post. They are trying to stage a huge event with tons of logistics to consider, let them do their job and cut them some slack.... With a new venue as well as other motivations to change/improve things, some things won't be as you would most like it. Others may find things that have bugged them for years is worlds better.. Just like engineering, there will be tradeoffs and decisions need to be made.
P.S. Go tell the high school [Foot|Base|Basket]Ball team that you are complaining because you have to play on two or three different fields with different refs! I don't think they'll have much sympathy for you as they play on numerous fields throughout their season and post-season.
John Vriezen
Team 2530 "Inconceivable"
Mentor, Drive Coach, Inspector
BrendanB
07-04-2011, 15:38
P.S. Go tell the high school [Foot|Base|Basket]Ball team that you are complaining because you have to play on two or three different fields with different refs! I don't think they'll have much sympathy for you as they play on numerous fields throughout their season and post-season.
John Vriezen
Team 2530 "Inconceivable"
Mentor, Drive Coach, Inspector
I think he was more referring to teams paying a hefty registration to pay on the Georgia Dome/Edward Jones dome floor, not a convention center. While it will still be champs, it will feel like a regional just with some good robots on the field!
jvriezen
07-04-2011, 15:45
I think he was more referring to teams paying a hefty registration to pay on the Georgia Dome/Edward Jones dome floor, not a convention center. While it will still be champs, it will feel like a regional just with some good robots on the field!
My comment was more directed at those who had been complaining about sensor calibration differences and inconsistent ref'ing due to swapping fields/refs.
John Vriezen
Team 2530 "Inconceivable"
Mentor, Drive coach, Inspector
XaulZan11
07-04-2011, 15:57
P.S. Go tell the high school [Foot|Base|Basket]Ball team that you are complaining because you have to play on two or three different fields with different refs! I don't think they'll have much sympathy for you as they play on numerous fields throughout their season and post-season.
IMO, thats a pretty weak comparison. We already play on different fields with different refs during the season if you go to more than one events. If my high school team got the chance to play in the Championship game at Camp Randall Stadium (home of the Badgers) and payed thousands of dollars in registration, travel and hotels (for the team, family, friends and fans), but found out the game would be played in some park with bleachers set up, I'm pretty sure there would be some complaining, especially if no one knew why the location changed.
Even if you don't consider FIRST teams to be FIRST's customers, you need to understand that FIRST needs us just as much as we need FIRST. They should do everything possible to please us (which I think they are for the most part), because without us, there is no FIRST Robotics.
That being said, I have faith in FIRST to make the Championship in St. Louis just as good, if not better than it was in Atlanta. Of course there will be some changes--some will be for the worst, but others will be for the best.
JohnBoucher
07-04-2011, 16:20
I don't really see it that way at all. FIRST is a non-profit organization, and all of us are members of that organization, not customers.
Are non-profits exempt from detailing what the service/product is? Send us your money and then we'll tell you what you get for it.
Think of each FIRST team as a company that purchases materials and services to market the end product. We choose where to market our product. We choose markets (regionals) based on known value. Teams are purchasing the the known value from Atlanta and expecting at least the same if not better.
The issue is the timing and the lack of specifics.
We are not customers of FIRST, we are FIRST!
FIRST is a collection of volunteers and participants (for discussion purposes, I'll call it FIRSTUS.) What I like to call FIRST Corporate (FIRSTCO) is that small group of payed folks and volunteers who work to organize things for FIRSTUS.
FIRSTCO will never be able to make everyone in FIRSTUS happy, heck there are still people who want us to go back to the days of Disney.
If FIRSTCO makes decisions about the championship that we of FIRSTUS don't like then it's up to us to show our displeasure. We in FIRSTUS land just need to make sure our complaints are valid and not based on pure speculation.
I remember the FIRST College Pilot Manual said that the fields are standard sized FRC fields 27 ft by 54 ft. So there are six FRC sized fields. I think there 6 or 12 teams competing in the pilot competition.
College-level FIRST Pilot Info: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B-SCpP-o9hKEZWJkYmYwOGEtYWY2My00N2NjLWEzZDktODNkMzQ3OWI4N zJk&hl=en&authkey=CM2L9sIG
http://vimeo.com/17484250
Rick TYler
07-04-2011, 17:07
ESPN is not going to waste half a second thinking about putting some boring FTC bots on live (or tape delayed) TV.
This is beneath you, Cory, and I can't believe you wrote it. Which emoticon means "disappointed?"
That should pretty much put an end to this speculation nonsense. CollegeFIRST, with AERIAL vehicles, and so on, needs 3 FRC fields. By my count, that means they're fitting:
3 FRC Fields (Divisional Dome 1, Divisional Dome 2, Einstein)
3 CollegeFIRST Fields (All Your Base, FIRST Flight, The Best Trajectory)
1 FRC Field sized area for FTC
AND FLL (atop Einstein)
inside the Dome.
Plus: College level-FIRST, including flight? Yeah, I think that trumps 2 FRC fields needing to be in the dome.
EDIT: All that being said, I still think they could have fit it all in. Arrange the 3 CollegeFIRST fields close together in one end-zone, Einstein, stage, and FTC in the other endzone, and 4 FRC fields in between. From what I saw in ATL last year, there was a lot of under-utilized space on the floor of the dome, and my understanding is that STL is actually BIGGER than the Georgia Dome.
Also of interest: The CollegeFIRST documentation I just linked was released 3rd week of March (ie. Week2 of FRC competitions)
Chris is me
07-04-2011, 17:20
Plus: College level-FIRST, including flight? Yeah, I think that trumps 2 FRC fields needing to be in the dome.
Throw out your long time customers in order to better test a pilot program? Really?
The pit ceilings are MASSIVE, definitely high enough for the challenge to be in the pits instead of taking up half of the Championship.
However, I don't think they kicked FRC out to make room for college.
XaulZan11
07-04-2011, 17:20
Plus: College level-FIRST, including flight? Yeah, I think that trumps 2 FRC fields needing to be in the dome.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Championship is the first and only event for College level-FIRST and there are less than 20 teams. As we all know from watching week 1 events, things rarely go smoothly at the first competitions of the season, let alone of the entire program. Are they really kicking FRC teams out of the dome for an untested game with brand new teams? What if they have connection issues? What if the teams aren't really ready to preform (like teams in week 1 FRC events and rookie FRC teams?). Yes, flying robot could be cooler than FRC robots, but waiting for field connection or seeing flying robot not being able to fly is not inspiring at all.
That being said, College-level FIRST doesn't appear on any Championship schedule (or offfical FIRST anything, I think), so I'm not sure that is a valid reason for the change.
Andrew Y.
07-04-2011, 17:24
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Championship is the first and only event for College level-FIRST and there are less than 20 teams. As we all know from watching week 1 events, things rarely go smoothly at the first competitions of the season, let alone of the entire program. Are they really kicking FRC teams out of the dome for an untested game with brand new teams? What if they have connection issues? What if the teams aren't really ready to preform (like teams in week 1 FRC events and rookie FRC teams?). Yes, flying robot could be cooler than FRC robots, but waiting for field connection or seeing flying robot not being able to fly is not inspiring at all.
That being said, College-level FIRST doesn't appear on any Championship schedule (or offfical FIRST anything, I think), so I'm not sure that is a valid reason for the change.
My personal opinion: For a pilot program, they will have chosen the best few schools to compete (WPI?, MIT?), and there will likely be little problem with things not going at least kind of well.
Flying robots seems to me like a great way to get the attention of people walking in off the street in STL.
EDIT: What I'm getting at here, is the teams who will be competing in the CollegeFIRST pilot are likely comprised of people who've competed in things like the DARPA Grand Challenge, and DARPA Urban Challenge.
Navid Shafa
07-04-2011, 17:44
We should have a 'Steps Taken For FIRST' contest. Everyone wear a pedometer and keep a log of how many miles you walked at the St. Louis Championship. That could be a lot of fun. Do they make pedometers for robot carts?
Jane
P.S. What is this going to do to the whole "ROBOT" yell in the midst of an exodus? Create a chorus line?
Robot pedometers? I think an encoder would work ;)
Mike Soukup
07-04-2011, 18:39
This is beneath you, Cory, and I can't believe you wrote it. Which emoticon means "disappointed?"
Honestly Rick, FTC matches are extremely boring this year. Have you seen any? At the Chicago event, teams in the finals struggled to score a single baton, the match was decided by autonomous and balancing. The clips I've seen from other events weren't much better.
VEX on the other hand, that's non-stop excitement :)
Honestly Rick, FTC matches are extremely boring this year. Have you seen any? At the Chicago event, teams in the finals struggled to score a single baton, the match was decided by autonomous and balancing. The clips I've seen from other events weren't much better.
VEX on the other hand, that's non-stop excitement :)
I think what Rick was saying is the FTC students pour as much soul and energy into their bots as FRC students do and deserve the same chance to be showcased on the big stage.
Billfred
07-04-2011, 19:21
I think what Rick was saying is the FTC students pour as much soul and energy into their bots as FRC students do and deserve the same chance to be showcased on the big stage.I won't dispute the latter--while my involvement with FVC/FTC ended in 2008*, I can probably safely say there are some FTC teams that pour more energy into their robots and programs than some FRC teams.
That said, there is something to be said for spectacle that attracts attention and coverage from a broader base. FTC can be fun, but it's definitely a challenge to give the smaller field and robots that main-event feel like FRC has been able to develop. It's difficult for me to see a broadcaster bypassing FRC for FTC when saying "Hey, let's put robots on TV!".
In the end, I'm going to go to St. Louis, partake of the raucous celebration that is the 2011 FIRST Championship, and handle the postmortem sometime in May.
*Nothing political about that date of departure; within a month of Championship that year, I was working full-time. Barely enough time to volunteer as a mentor, let alone do extra events.
Vikesrock
07-04-2011, 20:46
Some people here seem to be asking or speculating about the size of the Edward Jones Dome compared to the Georgia Dome. Here's some data on that subject:
According to the America's Center Brochure (http://www.explorestlouis.com/pdfs/meetings/AmericasCenterBrochure.pdf), the Edward Jones Dome is 105,000 sq ft. with the seats extended and 145,000 sq ft. with the seat retracted.
The Georgia Dome website lists the dome floor as 102,000 sq ft. on this page (http://www.gadome.com/about/Default.aspx).
So the Edward Jones Dome ranges from slightly larger to much larger depending on whether the seats are retracted are not.
I've heard that the map and full schedule should be out tomorrow so hopefully that will answer some questions.
GaryVoshol
07-04-2011, 21:58
I like how there's an available field on the Dome floor they're not using.
Most likely they will be using it, as they have in Atlanta for 7 years - for FLL on Thursday and Friday.
Kevin Kolodziej
07-04-2011, 21:59
On the latest update from Bill, he says something about being assigned a pit and not changing pits. I've read through this entire thread and I don't recall seeing anything about pit locations or any concern about them. Why does he mention pit locations? Perhaps the reason there are only two fields in the dome is because the pits for those 150+ teams are in the dome?
Think about it. The pits are half the action when it comes to an FRC event. If your championship is supposed to showcase everything about your ever, why not make the pits easily visible to the spectators as well? In Atlanta, if a spectator made their way to the dome to see competition, how many of them actually made their way to the pit as well? Not too many I'm betting..
But if you have playing fields and pits in the same location, you get spectators to see the best of both worlds, and you make the queuing trip almost nonexistent (save for those few matches where you switch).
Now, as much as I like this idea, it also raises a ton of red flags: two sets of pit admin, two sets of inspectors, all-calls in the dome would be difficult (though I could never understand the all calls in the Atlanta pits anyway), load-in and especially load-out would be a nightmare, and on and on and on.
Just a thought.
GaryVoshol
07-04-2011, 22:11
I think rather that FIRST was getting too many queries about having to move thei pits to correspond with switching fields. The latest confirms that will not happen.
On the latest update from Bill, he says something about being assigned a pit and not changing pits. I've read through this entire thread and I don't recall seeing anything about pit locations or any concern about them. Why does he mention pit locations? Perhaps the reason there are only two fields in the dome is because the pits for those 150+ teams are in the dome?
Think about it. The pits are half the action when it comes to an FRC event. If your championship is supposed to showcase everything about your ever, why not make the pits easily visible to the spectators as well? In Atlanta, if a spectator made their way to the dome to see competition, how many of them actually made their way to the pit as well? Not too many I'm betting..
But if you have playing fields and pits in the same location, you get spectators to see the best of both worlds, and you make the queuing trip almost nonexistent (save for those few matches where you switch).
Now, as much as I like this idea, it also raises a ton of red flags: two sets of pit admin, two sets of inspectors, all-calls in the dome would be difficult (though I could never understand the all calls in the Atlanta pits anyway), load-in and especially load-out would be a nightmare, and on and on and on.
Just a thought.
Interesting idea but a few points:
For the last four years that I have been at Worlds there has already been a set of inspectors and admin for all four fields so that wouldn't be anything new. Believe it or not the floor of the dome in ATL has always been a nice quite place, much quieter that the pits in the convention center.
Navid Shafa
07-04-2011, 22:48
If the Edward Jones building has a larger footprint than the Georgia dome, then why can't we recreate the same floor plan layout. Is the publicly available seating not conducive to the practiced and prepared setup, which was ideal for the Georgia Dome? I understand that there ae other programs involved, but with an even smaller floor layout in the past, they made it work.
If the only change on the program level is the addition of the collegiate sub-competitions, then my only possible logical deduction is that FRC is being displaced because of it. Not that this correct or substantiated, but this is my best guess.
I understand if this is what they have chosen to do, but I wish they would be upfront about the changes they made and which fields are located where. As far as I know, we have moved FRC fields to the pit, which leaves us with a LOT of empty space. What is going to be in the places where the division fields could be?...
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
What are you? an idiot? nobody laughs that much... that could cause asphyxiation. you need to pause to take a breath. people could take that seriously and try that and end up hurting themselves. plus, people could over work their abs and cramp hard. do you know what one of the most painful types of cramps are? ones on your full set of abs. thats why i use the ab-blaster. it melts away chuck norris' fat, i.e. it can do wonders for taking my keg to a set of 6.
additionally that is not GP at all.
but really, champs is going to be interesting. remember what jon stewart was calling the presidential election race in 2008? take that word and add 2011 FRC championships to that IHMO.
i do like the idea that it wont be as far to travel for teams half of the time but it really takes away from the allure for some teams. my favorite part about championships was being able to play on the floor of the ga dome in front of all of those people exactly where my childhood (and now socially outcasted) hero, mike vick, would play on sundays.
and yes, i admit, i am the performer at champs. wait till you hear these pipes.
rdlevy1215
12-04-2011, 17:02
Personally, I don't mind the fields being in different locations, however, the switching mid-day is the problem. Teams, like mine, with intricate scouting setups, become all messed up because of this. If i had it my way, i would have 5 Fields in the Dome (4 FRC Divisions, + Einstein/FTC) and FLL in the Convention Center. Obviously, if there is enough room, all 6 in the dome, similarly to the way it was done in Atlanta.
Something I was wondering was that, are they going to be switching divisional names along with the team/field swap? Or will the division winner banners be like Pit #2 Champion.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this:
Dean talked about this at the Philadelphia Regional. The Black Eyed Peas (well, "Will.I.Am and his friends") will be performing in St. Louis. Also, Morgan Freeman will be there. No, seriously.
To preempt any "link or it didn't happen" comments, sorry, it was webcast but I don't have anything archived on hand. Anyone videotape it?
Jack Jones
12-04-2011, 21:40
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this:
Dean talked about this at the Philadelphia Regional. The Black Eyed Peas (well, "Will.I.Am and his friends") will be performing in St. Louis. Also, Morgan Freeman will be there. No, seriously.
To preempt any "link or it didn't happen" comments, sorry, it was webcast but I don't have anything archived on hand. Anyone videotape it?
I'm surprised noone has mentiond this:
“We get what we celebrate and we are celebrating the wrong things.” – Dean Kamen
Rick TYler
12-04-2011, 22:16
I think what Rick was saying is the FTC students pour as much soul and energy into their bots as FRC students do and deserve the same chance to be showcased on the big stage.
Thank you, IndySam. I obviously didn't say it better myself.
If the fields aren't going to be in the dome then what is?
I'm sure many of us are eagerly waiting to hear the answer to this question.
JaneYoung
12-04-2011, 22:51
One thing I think we're learning from this is how portable the competitions are and how flexible the venue is/can be. I don't know many competitions that are as portable but they do usually deal with the hand they are dealt. Weather plays a part in sports like football and baseball. So do bugs. So do field conditions. I don't know if they could continue their game if it were moved outside of the arena/field, though. So this does show flexibility and adaptability on the part of FRC/FTC/FLL teams.
Here in Austin, we have a rodeo each spring and it's a big deal. A very big deal. At the end of the rodeo competition (a series of different events like calf roping and bull riding), a stage is brought in and a country music star or group performs. So, in this way - the stage is portable, not the competition. This is not the greatest comparison but it is what I am familiar with. What we're doing in FIRST is flip flopping that example - if it is indeed the stage. If it is other FIRST competitions that require the space, such as FTC, then again, we are seeing the portability/adaptability of the competition.
Just some thoughts.
Jane
sanddrag
12-04-2011, 23:11
That will be a sight to see, I'm bringing a video camera. I just need to remember to film the stampede from a safe place :ahh:
Maybe Ethernet? :rolleyes:
Have the wrap party at the same venue as the finals? That means all those people will be descending on the party at once. What a disaster.
Remember when they announced Rack'N'Roll tubes would be available to take AFTER the finals were over. Hundreds of students poured onto the field then.I was there for that disaster in 2007. Teams fighting over tubes, knocking over expensive A/V equipment, etc. It was terrible. And if I recall, they even were dumb enough to announce that before Chairman's (if I'm remembering right). I hope something like that never happens again.
Or perhaps for the general public to get into the concert you have to visit the pits and get your ticket stamped by 20 teams after seeing their bot. Is there anyone who would seriously want this? No offense, but this is just not a good idea at all. Not to be elitist but I've met the general public; I do not want them in my pit area. And especially not the ones coming for no reason other than to get an admission stamp to a musical concert. Interested public is fine; general public absolutely not. One of the things I liked best about the Long Beach regional was the security at each entrance. Made me feel like not just anybody would walk in there. FIRST is not going to achieve its mission by pulling in random people off the street. Bad idea.
The day FIRST offers the public free admission to a musical concert in order to get people to their robotics competitions is the day I walk away and start a VEX team.
One thing I think we're learning from this is how portable the competitions are and how flexible the venue is/can be.
we are seeing the portability/adaptability of the competition.
I'm not sure I understand your point.
Shouldn't FIRST be requiring the venue to place everything in the dome? If FIRST really wants to emulate mainstream sports events, how can it justify keeping it's main event away from the limelight? In this case, FIRST should be rigid, not adaptable, in requiring all of the fields in the dome, especially FRC.
At the same time, if this is a venue issue, why isn't the venue doing everything possible to appease FIRST in hopes of keeping the event in the future? It would make no sense for the venue to anger FIRST and risk losing the event in the future.
Something I am speculating here, is that two fields are being moved outside of the dome to accommodate the Collegiate FIRST competition. FIRST really needs to ask itself, Is this experiment really worth putting FRC in the back seat a little bit? I don't know. To me FRC is the bread and butter of the FIRST organization, and FIRST is missing out every time it doesn't maximize FRC's exposure.
-Jack
SammyKay
12-04-2011, 23:26
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this:
Dean talked about this at the Philadelphia Regional. The Black Eyed Peas (well, "Will.I.Am and his friends") will be performing in St. Louis. Also, Morgan Freeman will be there. No, seriously.
To preempt any "link or it didn't happen" comments, sorry, it was webcast but I don't have anything archived on hand. Anyone videotape it?
I didn't videotape it, but I remember that video that Dean played. I know of people who I am close with who know of robotics who are saying they would love to go to Championships just to see him, not for the experience...
If FIRST really did move the fields into the pits to make room for a concert, I'm not sure what to think.
I see why FIRST thinks this is a good idea, as a way to get people to notice the matches and think, "hey, that's pretty neat."
At the same time, I think FIRST has their priorities out of order if they aren't putting the teams first, who have done far more for outreach than the marketing department ever will.
If it's the collegiate program, I still disagree with the move, but wouldn't be upset. Though if that was the reason, I think we would already know about it.
SammyKay
12-04-2011, 23:34
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/04/latest-on-cmp.html
Wednesday
5-9:30PM – 5 representatives from each FRC team will be allowed into the pits to:
[LIST]
Uncrate their robot – robot inspectors will be on hand to check your lock-up form if your last regional was a bag & tag event
Work on their robot – the NASA machine shops will be open
Get their robot inspected
Get their encryption key[/LIST
I don't see anything on here about whether we are allowed to use the practice field on Wednesday or not...does anybody have any thoughts about whether we are allowed to? I know 316 would like to try and get some time on the practice field as soon as possible on Wednesday...
JaneYoung
12-04-2011, 23:35
I'm not sure I understand your point.
Basically, FIRST can do whatever it wants in the interest of FIRST. The FRC teams that are affected will deal with the decision(s).
Jane
Basically, FIRST can do whatever it wants in the interest of FIRST. The FRC teams that are affected will deal with the decision(s).
Jane
I don't think that's how it should work. What is FIRST without its teams?
JaneYoung
12-04-2011, 23:53
I don't think that's how it should work. What is FIRST without its teams?
This year it is what it is and, at some point, we will all find out what that is, specifically.
Perhaps a poll would help determine how folks in CD feel about the fields arrangement in St. Louis regarding the high profile of the Dome and the easy access of the pits. I think we'd find the majority don't really mind but I might be surprised.
Jane
I wouldn't necessarily mind...
But, I don't know why, so I do kind of mind.
After I know why, I'll be more apt to make up my mind fully. If it's for a concert, yeah, I'll be a bit annoyed. If it's for the Collegiate Pilot, probably not so much. If it's for no reason at all, I'll be really annoyed.
This despite not being able to be at the event.
In other words, I only mind because I don't know the reason behind the move. Once that reason is known, I'll make up my mind whether I actually mind or not.
This year it is what it is and, at some point, we will all find out what that is, specifically.
Perhaps a poll would help determine how folks in CD feel about the fields arrangement in St. Louis regarding the high profile of the Dome and the easy access of the pits. I think we'd find the majority don't really mind but I might be surprised.
Jane
Oh I'm not worried. It is what it is, I agree. Life will go on, and FIRST will go on, and we'll get used to the new arrangement.
Though there's nothing wrong with wanting to know the reasons behind the new arrangement or expressing genuine concerns, and we all would prefer that FIRST (the organization) stays on the right path.
Perhaps they just want to have a celebration for the 20th anniversary, and will go back to the old arrangement next year. Or perhaps we will end up liking it this way. I can think of several advantages: people in the pits get to see matches. The pits don't feel so isolated from the action. Teams get more time to observe and improve their robots for half of their matches. I've been to CMP twice, and I've always considered the regionals to be more fun in many ways. Having the game right around the curtain at all times might have been why. It does feel more intimate; spectators are closer to the field, and competing teams are often standing around the perimeter of the field, which makes eliminations much more exciting than those which take place in an open dome.
I don't see anything on here about whether we are allowed to use the practice field on Wednesday or not...does anybody have any thoughts about whether we are allowed to? I know 316 would like to try and get some time on the practice field as soon as possible on Wednesday...
On the last page of the A-Z Team Guide (http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/Events/2011%20Championship%20Info%20A-Z.pdf) (04/08 edition)
Practice Field Schedule
Times are subject to modification. Listen for Pit Announcements/postings for any changes
Thursday: 8:30am to 5:30pm
Friday: 9:15am to 5:30pm
Saturday: 8:00am to 11am
Chris is me
13-04-2011, 02:21
I wouldn't necessarily mind...
But, I don't know why, so I do kind of mind.
After I know why, I'll be more apt to make up my mind fully. If it's for a concert, yeah, I'll be a bit annoyed. If it's for the Collegiate Pilot, probably not so much. If it's for no reason at all, I'll be really annoyed.
This despite not being able to be at the event.
In other words, I only mind because I don't know the reason behind the move. Once that reason is known, I'll make up my mind whether I actually mind or not.
One might ask "Why do you care"? You haven't been on a FIRST team in awhile. It doesn't really affect you.
I'm not meaning to be critical... I'm upset and I'm not attending the Championship either. I'm just curious.
One might ask "Why do you care"? You haven't been on a FIRST team in awhile. It doesn't really affect you.
I'm not meaning to be critical... I'm upset and I'm not attending the Championship either. I'm just curious.
It's because of the principle of the thing.
Teams pay $5K--plus travel--to play in the main arena at the Championships. (OK, to play at Championships--but you've got to admit, playing on an NFL field, even if it's covered over, is pretty darn cool.) Now they're being told (and note that that's NOW, not 3-4 months ago) that "Oh, we're only putting 3 fields out for FRC this year, the other 2 are in the pit...but we'll make it up to you by making you switch fields halfway through!"
First, that's logistical mayhem. I don't think it could be done in Atlanta--the distances were too great. In St. Louis, they're smaller, but you'll still have a bit of a traffic jam (there are something like 3-4 ways into the dome from the conference area, but I've seen the traffic jam 15K+ college students can create in 2 of those ways at once, while some of them are still at dinner, and a third way at a different time--it's NOT fun to navigate, unless you can use a side route open to volunteers only).
But the lack of explanation is what really gets me. I've had a soccer game moved before--the normal field was rained out. But I knew about it ahead of time, the field change went smoothly, and we all knew the reason. But if that same game had just been moved at halftime, with no reason, even if the move was known ahead of time, I think people would be pretty annoyed.
That's why I'm skeptical. I've seen the speculation.
If the speculation about a musical performance is correct, and it takes half the venue for three days to do it properly, then I really won't like the change. (Note: This is only if the musical performance takes half the venue for the full time. Otherwise, I continue to wonder...)
If the speculation about the college pilot is correct, then I won't mind--they need the ceiling and the space to do it right. Plus, it can be a show-stopper/attractant of the public--better advertising.
If it's something like a big water tank in the other half of the venue... Don't get me started on that (L.A. 2008). But that's not a FIRST problem, that's a venue problem, and would probably not be a future issue. That's one that I could probably stomach--wouldn't like, but could take.
As for it not affecting me: Not this year, but if it's continued in future (say I mentor a team in future), and I do go to the Championships again, it will affect me then. The best way to control the future is to do things in the present. As such, if it's a reasonable reason, I can add a voice that says, "Sure, that's OK, let's do it again!" If it's not, then I can add a voice that says, "What Were You Thinking?"
If there were a reasonable explanation that FRC HQ could release, that would probably satisfy me. Even if it was, "We're planning some form of event in that half of the venue, but we can't tell you what it is." Or denying a rumor or something like that.
Or, as I tell teammates on my college competition team: "Well, at least we know for sure that that company isn't going to sponsor us!" (It's not fun to have a potential sponsor not respond for months on end.) I'll take knowing for sure (even knowing that I can't know) over speculation on why.
P.S. This is the first year since 1999 that I haven't been to at least one competition, either as a spectator, a team member, or a volunteer. My folks are still involved, too. That's 11 years of 1+ competitions/year, and only 6 of those years were with a team.
If the speculation about the college pilot is correct, then I won't mind--they need the ceiling and the space to do it right.
The field will be enclosed in netting around the outside perimeter with a net ceiling height of approximately 16’.The floor plan for the America's Center (http://www.explorestlouis.com/pdfs/meetings/AmericasCenterBrochure.pdf) specifies a "Contiguous ceiling height of 40ft" within the exhibit halls. I see no reason why any 16ft tall college FIRST event would not fit in the exhibit halls.
David Brinza
13-04-2011, 04:05
This is the first year since 1999 that I haven't been to at least one competition, either as a spectator, a team member, or a volunteer.
Eric! What's wrong with you? Are you letting school get in the way of your education?
You, my friend, are a good example of why FIRST at the collegiate level might not be such a wonderful idea. There's no need to change your perceptions about seeking a career in science, technology, engineering or math. Just completing the course of study and projects to obtain a degree are more than enough challenge. Finding time and money to participate in a program outside the mainstream for graduation is probably not going to happen.
Maybe FIRST Collegiate program targets individuals who are "undecided" as freshmen or sophomores. If decide to pursue a technical degree, they probably won't be looking to do FIRST anymore (or at least until they graduate). Will professional engineering mentors jump into an environment with college students hell-bent on making their own ideas work? Doesn't seem like a good "risk-reward" trade to me. Maybe this is an orthogonal FIRST where mentors aren't needed or even wanted?
I don't even know how to think about the financial aspects of this program. Most college students are broke and their parents usually struggle with the costs as well. I don't think college students are going to do fund-raising or beat down doors of corporate leaders for support. Universities themselves are under tremendous financial pressures as well. Where is the market??
Ugh...
If it's something like a big water tank in the other half of the venue... Don't get me started on that (L.A. 2008). But that's not a FIRST problem, that's a venue problem, and would probably not be a future issue. That's one that I could probably stomach--wouldn't like, but could take.
What, you're telling me you didn't enjoy the fact that American Gladiators had taken up half the arena and part of the parking lot? *tongue in cheek*
JohnBoucher
13-04-2011, 06:54
Since it has been one week since the last update on Bills Blog, I suspect that details are still in flux.
FIRST, You have every right to change the big show, but please keep the community up on the details. We will understand.
thefro526
13-04-2011, 08:16
The floor plan for the America's Center (http://www.explorestlouis.com/pdfs/meetings/AmericasCenterBrochure.pdf) specifies a "Contiguous ceiling height of 40ft" within the exhibit halls. I see no reason why any college FIRST event would not fit in the exhibit halls.
Nick, I was thinking the same thing, and the only reason I could come up with is that FIRST wants to display the Collegiate Pilot in the most visible place possible for some reason.
But, I still think it should be in the pits, considering that it's a pilot and there are only 20 teams involved...
I wonder about the idea of a musical act taking up half of the dome, especially when you consider the Black Eye Peas can put up a stage, do a show, and take down the stage during a 30 minute Super Bowl halftime.
robobandmom
13-04-2011, 09:49
I was at the Buckeye Regional and they announced on Saturday that Will.I.Am and/of the Blackeyed Peas will perform in St Louis. (It was kind of hard to hear, so I'm not sure if they said "of" or "and.")
This is a reply from Steele Meetings when asked about details for the Finale party. "There is no cost to attend the finale party this year. We are still waiting for the final details, however, the entertainment will be open to the FIRST community and there will be concession sales for the food & drink. There should be additional details announced soon."
JohnBoucher
13-04-2011, 10:09
We are still waiting for the final details, however, the entertainment will be open to the FIRST community and there will be concession sales for the food & drink. There should be additional details announced soon."
No free food the wrap party this year?
From a chaperone/mentors point of view It would be nice know this so the students could plan for this.
rees2001
13-04-2011, 10:40
No free food the wrap party this year?
From a chaperone/mentors point of view It would be nice know this so the students could plan for this.
Agreed, this just continues to show the lack of communication coming from FIRST right now. Some information would be better than no information. Give me the details you have so we can plan better.
No free food the wrap party this year?
From a chaperone/mentors point of view It would be nice know this so the students could plan for this.
Considering it was $40/ticket just to get into the wrap party in previous years, I wouldn't ever call the food "free". They typically rolled the cost up into whatever hotel room you booked through Steele Meetings. Though I do see your intended point (bring cash).
I do agree -- if it's announced at ONE regional, it needs to be sent out to everyone.
torihoelscher
13-04-2011, 13:03
Agreed.
I second the agree
::slamsheadinwall:
::slamsheadinwall:
::slamsheadinwall:
::slamsheadinwall:
pain pain pain, but it could be worse? it could just be one field... that would be a pain to play on with more than 300 teams....
SammyKay
14-04-2011, 07:30
On the last page of the A-Z Team Guide (http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/Events/2011%20Championship%20Info%20A-Z.pdf) (04/08 edition)
Thanks! didn't see that at first.
Justin Montois
14-04-2011, 14:39
New Update.
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/04/clock-is-ticking.html
They listened to us a little bit. Now teams will change fields at the end of the day on Thursday and then again on Friday. No switching during the middle of the day. This is a good change, however if you happen to be in Newton or Curie you will play 2 out of 3 days in the Pits.
Still hiding the big plans for Friday and Saturday night....
Travis Hoffman
14-04-2011, 14:47
New Update.
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/04/clock-is-ticking.html
They listened to us a little bit. Now teams will change fields at the end of the day on Thursday and then again on Friday. No switching during the middle of the day. This is a good change, however if you happen to be in Newton or Curie you will play 2 out of 3 days in the Pits.
Still hiding the big plans for Friday and Saturday night....
Wouldn't around the same number of matches be played Friday as Thursday and Saturday combined? That would balance out the pit vs. dome time pretty well, no?
Seems logistically better than before. Still hoping there is enough seating in the pit field areas to accomodate teams.
Wouldn't around the same number of matches be played Friday as Thursday and Saturday combined? That would balance out the pit vs. dome time pretty well, no?
Seems logistically better than before. Still hoping there is enough seating in the pit field areas to accomodate teams.
The main difference would be where the division eliminations take place. Archi and Galileo finals would be in the dome...big stage for big event, perhaps more special than bleacher seating in the pits?
Dancin103
21-04-2011, 16:46
We should have a 'Steps Taken For FIRST' contest. Everyone wear a pedometer and keep a log of how many miles you walked at the St. Louis Championship. That could be a lot of fun. Do they make pedometers for robot carts?
Jane
P.S. What is this going to do to the whole "ROBOT" yell in the midst of an exodus? Create a chorus line?
We, me and my best friend (as Ed says my twin), did this in Florida for the regional. The distances we walked were astronomical! It is fun to see how far you walk each day! :)
Cass
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