Tube starvation/stealing

[MaxMax161]

Tube starvation/stealing is going to play a BIG part of the match strategy in any higher level match. The question is how do you do it? Which tubes, which bots in what roles, ect? What do you guys think the best way to implement a tube starvation/stealing strategy is?

Does it vary with your alliance make up and/or the opposing alliance makeup? How far do you go to get a tube away from your opponent? What if there is another tube you want in your feeder lane? A different tube unguarded on the field? It's early in the game/late in the game? Assorted logo completeness?

With all these possible variables do you think there can be any blanket strategy, maybe just a few, or are their countless different variations?

[Richard Wallace]

What is tube stealing? Picking up tubes on your opponents' side of the field?

[Norman J]

I contest that tube starving will be utilized at high-level play. All teams that make it to Einstein will have such practiced human players that they should be able to drop all three shapes into the scoring zone. Such an ability renders tube starving strategies completely ineffective. In fact, if you try to starve and go to the lanes, the other team will just throw all the tubes and outscore you by a huge margin.

[Brandon Holley]

I don't think there is, or should be, a blanket strategy for this part of the game.

Particularly in eliminations, it is important to have a couple of different strategies you can employ at various points in time.

One particular strategy that I feel will be extremely critical in St. Louis is starving one particular tube on the field. For example, your alliance can decide that you will NOT throw any squares on to the open field. You will either human load them, or pick them up from the lane, but you will not place squares out into the open. The defensive team on your alliance will then have one clear mission, and that is to defend all squares. Whether they push them into your lanes, or pick them up themselves, their mission will be to keep squares out of the grasp of your opponents.

I have seen that particular strategy in action a couple of times (we used it in Boston a few times) and its quite effective. If the opposing alliance cannot complete logos, their score will be drastically lower, even if they put 12+ tubes up.

I've seen many other similar strategies implemented with success as well. You've just got to go with what plays to your alliance's strengths best, while taking into consideration what works against your opponent's strengths best.

-Brando

[Brandon Holley]

I contest that tube starving will be utilized at high-level play. All teams that make it to Einstein will have such practiced human players that they should be able to drop all three shapes into the scoring zone. Such an ability renders tube starving strategies completely ineffective. In fact, if you try to starve and go to the lanes, the other team will just throw all the tubes and outscore you by a huge margin.

Most human players need some bouncing/rolling for the tubes to make it across the field. I've seen many teams block this roll/bounce at mid field and then shuffle the tube out of the grasp of their opponents. Just something to consider. I think tube strategy will be the difference maker in the high-level play.

-Brando

[Jon Stratis]

In recapping our last regional, this was something I pointed out to our team. We only really played defense in the very last match (the cable controlling our elevator snapped during autonomous, so we were unable to score curing that match), so that was really the only match we could critique the driver's defensive ability on.

No one on our alliance (actually, no one on the field!) was using the feeder lanes at all in that match. As a result, one great defensive strategy we should have employed would have been to simply push tubes into the feeder lanes. Yes, when you get down to the end, the human players are great... but even great human players can't get it in the scoring zone every time. Sometimes the tubes fall short, or hit other robots, or take an odd bounce. As a starvation strategy, pushing tubes into your own feeder lanes prevents the other team from using them (without incurring a penalty). This would clear away any tubes near the opponents scoring zone, forcing them to travel farther to find useful tubes, giving your defensive robot more room to get in their way and slow them down.

I would say this is only viable for a defensive role... you don't want to take someone who is scoring points away to attempt this.

[Phalanx]

Tube starvation/stealing is going to play a BIG part of the match strategy in any higher level match. The question is how do you do it? Which tubes, which bots in what roles, ect? What do you guys think the best way to implement a tube starvation/stealing strategy is?


You saw us in NJ use a tube stealing, tube starvation strategy which got us to the finals against, YOU guys. LOL!!!

Tube starvation, and stealing can't be a blanket strategy, but it works very effectively if your alliance has the faster minbots.
It worked really well for us.

While we didn't qualify for Championships, I'm already in St Louis and our chief strategist will be here as well. I'll stop by and talk to you guys on Thursday about if.

[rcmolloy]

We used this strategy in NJ and I know Max would probably say that tube starvation is very effective. It pretty much took us all the way to the finals when we relied on our minibots on our alliance to win. It was a great strategy up until when we played 1676 and 2016 and had a difficult time keeping up.

If the strategy is executed right, you could really win some matches. Although, it will not be like a week 1 where minibots can only be the deciding factor. The team needs to put up the right amount of tubes before considering the minibot to be a factor.

EDIT: Mike beat me to it above haha.

[Chris is me]

Tube starvation is one of my favorite plays this year, and I believe it will be extra successful at Champs.

Slowing down tube scoring is key to taking the entropy of the mini bot race out of the picture. If there's 4 logos on each side, minibots decide the match every time. Stopping the creation of a wall of logos is critical.

Like all strategies, execution is key. A balance of feeder loading, holding back tubes, selective piece starvation, and tube "stealing" is key. The strategy, unlike most strategies this year, makes full use of all 3 robots on the field. That's why I think it will be most successful at Championships.

[BandChick]

On the contrary, I think tube starving will happen more in division elimination matches, but I don't think we'll see it quite so blatantly on Einstein. It worked so well in NJ because teams weren't ready for that kind of strategy, but the game has changed a lot since then, and so have the way teams develop their strategy for the game.

I think you might see ONE elim match for each division go by the way of starvation, but I think the adaptability of the higher-level teams will result in a big change of game.

Only time will tell!

[Mark Sheridan]

I think we will see some form of tube starvation on Einstein. Though I think it will be much more dynamic. When the opportunity present itself, a team will go for it. Like if the opposing team pops a tube, or throws a tube not far enough across.

I think most teams will have two robots focus on scoring. The third robot is going to have to juggle defense, stealing tubes from the opponents side, herding stray tubes into their own alliance lane and feeding tubes to the alliance partners.

[MaxMax161]

What is tube stealing? Picking up tubes on your opponents' side of the field?

Yup, drinking their milkshake as it were. Pretty much taking any tube that a opponent bot would have wanted to grab as opposed to getting an easier tube.

I contest that tube starving will be utilized at high-level play. All teams that make it to Einstein will have such practiced human players that they should be able to drop all three shapes into the scoring zone.

I personally think we have a pretty good human player but he is effectively never able to throw a triangle anywhere but to the end of the feeder lane and give or take midfield. I highly doubt that the HPs on Einstein will be able to throw all their tubes in to the scoring zone. I think the shape of choice to starve would be the triangles, squares depending on the first 15-25 seconds of the match, but never the circles.

One particular strategy that I feel will be extremely critical in St. Louis is starving one particular tube on the field. For example, your alliance can decide that you will NOT throw any squares on to the open field. You will either human load them, or pick them up from the lane, but you will not place squares out into the open. The defensive team on your alliance will then have one clear mission, and that is to defend all squares. Whether they push them into your lanes, or pick them up themselves, their mission will be to keep squares out of the grasp of your opponents.

I totally agree. In Virginia tube starving was the only way to win the game in the elims. For example in our first elims match the other alliance was starving triangles and won the match because of it. We couldn't make logos and it hurt. Our alliance then modified our human player strategy to compensate and went on to beat them. Another good example was when in match Q71 we were toughly outmatched but because of a good square starving strategy the other alliance couldn't make logos and we had a 81 to 81 tie. Man was that something.

I'm already in St Louis and our chief strategist will be here as well. I'll stop by and talk to you guys on Thursday about if.

Awesome! You guys were great to work with in the qualifying matches, I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

Like all strategies, execution is key. A balance of feeder loading, holding back tubes, selective piece starvation, and tube "stealing" is key. The strategy, unlike most strategies this year, makes full use of all 3 robots on the field.

The name of the game isn't hanging tubes it's game piece control. If you control the game pieces then you can hang as much as you want and you can stop your opponent from hanging. The good/bad thing is, as you said, it uses every robot on the field. There are a LOT of things factoring in to every decision on the field this year.


A successful tube steal does four things; gets you a tube, takes away a tube from your opponent, wastes your opponent's time, and takes more of your time (then getting a different tube). I think that, generally, the first three factors are greater then the last even when coupled with the risk of being on the losing end of a tube fight. That coupled with a good starvation policy make logos not happen, and if logos don't happen then the game is over.

[Norman J]

I personally think we have a pretty good human player but he is effectively never able to throw a triangle anywhere but to the end of the feeder lane and give or take midfield. I highly doubt that the HPs on Einstein will be able to throw all their tubes in to the scoring zone. I think the shape of choice to starve would be the triangles, squares depending on the first 15-25 seconds of the match, but never the circles.


I'm not our team's HP scout so I don't know how common this is, but I've watched a match in which 469's human player landed all three shapes in the scoring zone with an over-the-back throw with at least 60% success. It's possible for a great HP to feed one effective scoring robot if they're quick.

[pandamonium]

The reason behind why this strategy works isn't in my opinion any of the reasons mentioned, it is actually much more subtle. Have you ever watched 1st graders play soccer? everyone on the same team clumps around the ball making it harder for the team to actually score. When 3 robots try to pick up tubes from the same general are the same thing happens. What this strategy does is it spreads out your alliance making your team more efficient. Taking a tube from the far side of the field isn't a 2 tube swing it actually is more like a 3 tube swing because the closer tube that you could have gone for is still open for your alliance partner.

The blanket strategy this year is having a solid drive team.

also this may sound redundant but a good alliance will establish a "right of way" or some sort of flow so that robots do not get in each-others way.

[Lil' Lavery]

I certainly hope there's enough time over the weekend for the natural evolution of strategy to take place. The disparity in quality of machines during the qualification matches makes me a little bit hesitant that it will.

But tube starvation can and will be effective in the right scenarios, but by no means is it an end-all, be-all strategy. Teams that are going to rely on it as their primary strategy without an idea of how to counter their opponents are going to be in for a rude awakening once they reach the eliminations.

And the human players are almost a game within itself.

[AndrewMcRadical]

Our team played tube scarcity through almost all of Cleveland, worked well especially against productive offensive robots. I HP for our team when we throw, and triangles are definitely the most difficult to throw effectively. I can get them to our minibot pole 90% of the time but not too much farther. The squares and circles I can hit the other wall with (soccer player). tube scarcity is a quality strategy if you can dedicate one alliance member to lurk outside the opponents' scoring zone for the majority of the match. also, triangles are not always the best option. if the opposing HPs are weak, scarce circles can prevent an ubertube cover, preventing even more points by the opposing alliance. it is best to make a call within the first ten or fifteen seconds of a match, but choosing white in the proper circumstance can save twelve points a game when done properly.

[GGCO]

I think you'll see one robot just dominate the field by collecting tubes and harassing their opponents as they pick them up.

If this robot is good enough, I think we'll end up seeing two of it's opponents sent over to stop it.

Now I'm thinking about it, if the defense is good enough on both teams, the 3rd robot on each alliance might just end up harassing and playing defense on each other.

[thefro526]

And the human players are almost a game within itself.

The Skill Level of some of the Human Players at this point in the season can essentially make a tube starvation strategy useless.

I'd be willing to say that most of the teams on Einstein will have Human players that reliably throw past the caution line 9 out of 10 times.

[rmhooks573]

the strategy of tube starvation of a shape is a strategy that can really backfire on you though; which happened in MSC. i think that the strategy will be used a lot but a lot of teams will see how it can backfire and we will for sure see an all out brawl of who can have the perfect strategy

[kornjones]

I know that our team used tube starving very successfully at the VA regional with 1676 and 25. Now this was for multiple reasons and these reasons will definitely not work for every alliance, it just happened to for our alliance. Our bot can only pick up from the feeder station (hindsight is 20/20) but 1676 and 25 could both pick up and score successfully from the floor, so instead of us all trying to pick up and score tubes on the same pegs at the same time (I believe someone said this was analogous to 1st graders playing soccer which is spot on), we went and picked up squares from the feeder station, 25 scored circles and triangles and if i remember right, 1676 stole whatever pieces didn't make it from the other alliance's feeder to their zone.

surely not a blanket strategy (if a successful one exists) but it worked well for our alliance

[rmhooks573]

the only thing that could virtually go wrong for the strategy is overusage. teams catch onto it and then BOOM! :eek:

[rcmolloy]

I know that our team used tube starving very successfully at the VA regional with 1676 and 25. Now this was for multiple reasons and these reasons will definitely not work for every alliance, it just happened to for our alliance. Our bot can only pick up from the feeder station (hindsight is 20/20) but 1676 and 25 could both pick up and score successfully from the floor, so instead of us all trying to pick up and score tubes on the same pegs at the same time (I believe someone said this was analogous to 1st graders playing soccer which is spot on), we went and picked up squares from the feeder station, 25 scored circles and triangles and if i remember right, 1676 stole whatever pieces didn't make it from the other alliance's feeder to their zone.

surely not a blanket strategy (if a successful one exists) but it worked well for our alliance

Even with that, 25 used a similar strategy in our match and we used it throughout NJ and Philly depending on which bots we were playing with but in STL this strategy could be really effective for a team with great bots.

DS1 (Left) is in front of mainly squares and circles. DS2 (Middle) is in front of Triangles and Squares and DS3 (Right) is in front of Triangles and Circles. From there, the teams would go and get their respective game pieces since they were the stations right in front of them. It helps if all 3 bots can score and really takes the confusion of trying to score across partners.

Most of the time though, 2 teams will take a single rack area and try and fill it up. If you're stuck on Einstein with 3 good bots, take this to your advantage.

[Bryany]

So what kind of strategy is useful to counter a tube starvation?

Alternately, what happens when both alliances both try to starve the same shape?

[Blackphantom91]

Even with that, 25 used a similar strategy in our match and we used it throughout NJ and Philly depending on which bots we were playing with but in STL this strategy could be really effective for a team with great bots.



Starving against good robots are really hard due to the feeder slot good teams will pick up on that your trying to starve them and go there. You cant block the lanes otherwise its a red card. By starving a team of tubes you also starve yourself in a way. If you are the alliance doing the starving you better know you have a faster minibots because it may come down to it. But like very strategey it has its advantages and disadvantages.

[Blackphantom91]

So what kind of strategy is useful to counter a tube starvation?

Alternately, what happens when both alliances both try to starve the same shape?

Feeder slot and If you know ahead of time let your human players know to not throw the tubes because of the starvation 1114 and 2056 did a successful counter of this in waterloo I believe and it was quite effective.

[MaxMax161]

WOW, my posts are getting loooong.

I've watched a match in which 469's human player landed all three shapes in the scoring zone with an over-the-back throw with at least 60% success. It's possible for a great HP to feed one effective scoring robot if they're quick.

Really? That's impressive, but I still don't like the idea of only 60% success rate. That's relying a lot on luck and could give your opponent tubes in a pinch putting the nail in your coffin.

When 3 robots try to pick up tubes from the same general are the same thing happens. What this strategy does is it spreads out your alliance making your team more efficient.

I totally agree that spreading out the robots on an alliance is very important and establishing a game flow and tempo is crucial however I think that this strategy works for more reasons then just that.

But tube starvation can and will be effective in the right scenarios, but by no means is it an end-all, be-all strategy. Teams that are going to rely on it as their primary strategy without an idea of how to counter their opponents are going to be in for a rude awakening once they reach the eliminations.

What are some of the other strategies you had in mind? I can think of the play the game, hang tons of tubes strategy (with and without a defender) but is there another?

Our team played tube scarcity through almost all of Cleveland, worked well especially against productive offensive robots.
...
it is best to make a call within the first ten or fifteen seconds of a match, but choosing white in the proper circumstance can save twelve points a game when done properly.

I agree, this is definitely a strategy to use against an alliance that can put more tubes up then you can, and a strategy to be prepared to work against if you have a good alliance and your opponent knows it.

I agree with that as well, tube starvation needs to be coordinated between all the alliance members and they need to know which tubes to get ASAP. It's also important that the HPs know this so they don't throw out the chosen starvation tube.

I think you'll see one robot just dominate the field by collecting tubes and harassing their opponents as they pick them up.

If this robot is good enough, I think we'll end up seeing two of it's opponents sent over to stop it.

Now I'm thinking about it, if the defense is good enough on both teams, the 3rd robot on each alliance might just end up harassing and playing defense on each other.

I definitively see a defender as part of a strategy however I don't think that any alliance would devote two robots to stopping one. If a defender can tie up two robots then the defender is accomplishing what they want and the other bots aren't scoring.

The Skill Level of some of the Human Players at this point in the season can essentially make a tube starvation strategy useless.

You really think so? I see where you're coming from but I still think that control on the game pieces on the field via tube starvation stealing is still going to aggravate someone on the other alliance.

I know that our team used tube starving very successfully at the VA regional with 1676 and 25. Now this was for multiple reasons and these reasons will definitely not work for every alliance, it just happened to for our alliance. Our bot can only pick up from the feeder station (hindsight is 20/20) but 1676 and 25 could both pick up and score successfully from the floor, so instead of us all trying to pick up and score tubes on the same pegs at the same time (I believe someone said this was analogous to 1st graders playing soccer which is spot on), we went and picked up squares from the feeder station, 25 scored circles and triangles and if i remember right, 1676 stole whatever pieces didn't make it from the other alliance's feeder to their zone.

Not to argue with our wonderful alliance partner but I would call what we did in VA more tube stealing and less tube starvation. We never picked a shape to not throw out or the try specifically hard to steal so it wasn't really a starving strategy. That said we did focus a lot on tube stealing and control of the game pieces.

So what kind of strategy is useful to counter a tube starvation?

Alternately, what happens when both alliances both try to starve the same shape?
Feeder slot and If you know ahead of time let your human players know to not throw the tubes because of the starvation 1114 and 2056 did a successful counter of this in waterloo I believe and it was quite effective.

I agree, feeder slot is a guaranteed whatever tube you want. The HPs have to be very aware if you're getting starved so they can get the right tubes out to you ASAP.

If both alliances try and starve the same shape then there isn't much of that shape on the field. I think since then they would both have to go to the feeder station at least once per logo it becomes a foot race to see who can hang faster and who can get there and back faster.



I'm just spitballing here but what do you guys think of an alliance made up of three hanging bots that rotate in and out of defense/tube stealing. For example at first bot 1 and bot 2 hang tubes and bot 3 goes over and plays defense/steals tubes, as soon as bot 3 can get a tube bot 1 or bot 2 go in and play defense/steal tubes while the other two hang and so on and so forth. The idea is to get as many of your opponents game pieces as you can while still making your own logos. Do you guys think it would be to hard to coordinate? Wastes time running across the field? Maybe would work better if two bots rotated and one was a dedicated scorer? Something else?

[CallieJ]

Tube starvation, as with any strategy, needs to be something that is thought through completely. There is no strategy in FRC that can be applied successfully to every match- the variables are just too complicated. For the very, very good teams (and I'm talking 1114, 254, 233, that level) it becomes more about finding solutions to the defensive strategies other teams throw at you.

Single color starvation is probably the simplest to accomplish, since it has a very straightforward objective and doesn't require much in-match adjustment. I do know, however, that many of the top teams have been facing that strategy since Week 2 and it doesn't even faze them anymore. If anyone was watching the finals matches at SVR you can see we didn't even bother to try and use it against 254- their human player knows how to get around it.

Some form of tube strategy can make a very big difference when you know that your advantage is in the minibot. But all of these strategies have to be adjusted for the situation. And that's partly what is going to make Championship matches so interesting. At regional events there are often powerhouses who win all of their matches irrespective of their opponents. Occasionally the top couple of teams will play each other and have a difficult match, but usually they just have to play, not do anything stupid, and everything will be fine.

At Championships the way the OPRs play out (at least in Galileo) is that even the top 1 or 2 teams are not guaranteed to win all of their matches if they're playing 3 mid-ranked robots. However, there's not enough of a discrepancy for it to be pushed completely the other way, either. I personally am looking forward to seeing the combination of some of these simpler strategies to fit unique situations.

[Dancin103]

The Skill Level of some of the Human Players at this point in the season can essentially make a tube starvation strategy useless.

I'd be willing to say that most of the teams on Einstein will have Human players that reliably throw past the caution line 9 out of 10 times.

I agree with this 100%. If you have a human player that can through the tubes clear across the field into the zone across the caution line, it will be a game changer.

[Gary Dillard]

I agree with this 100%. If you have a human player that can through the tubes clear across the field into the zone across the caution line, it will be a game changer.

One thing that is kind of an unmeasured quantity - because of its difficulty - is blocking the throws. The high scoring bots are generally pretty narrow vertically, but if you were a REALLY good driver you could in theory play soccer goalie somewhere deep, block the gamepieces mid-air with your arm extended and then herd them away. I doubt that the human players that are throwing across the field are putting enough of an arc to go over a 12'+ robot at the caution line.