cRIO FRC2

[MagiChau]

I noticed on Bill's blog he mentioned that NI unveiled (at the FIRST Championship) a new cRIO model available to be used in FRC starting in the 2012 season. Didn't see a thread already made so I made this one for future discussion.

Wonder how the new one will compare to the old one. Don't want to take a unnecessary risk of unreliability but curious about the specs and if it will have a significant change in design.

Bill's blog post here: http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/04/were-you-in-crowd.html

[kramarczyk]

NI already makes their commercial cRio in both 4 and 8 slot versions. I strongly suspect that the new one is simply on the 4 slot chassis. I know many teams that only use 3 slots (1, 4 & 8), so this type of reduction could be a simple cost, weight and footprint reduction that teams have been asking for.

[Timz3082]

It also would be nice if they put this in the kit:yikes: ::rtm:: I would really enjoy having two cRIOs to play around with...

[plnyyanks]

If anyone at St. Louis can stop by the NI booth, I would like to see what information they have on the new cRIO model, since I won't be at CMP. Thanks in advance.

[Big Kid]

Here is the image of the New CRIO. It is indeed the 4 Slotted CRIO.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/286484604.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1304043455&Signature=dQZoxC%2BwLdOYCZKj8ljh1HeZC48%3D

[Joe G.]

Looks like only one ethernet port. Wonder if the camera will require the 8-slot model, or if FIRST will come up with another way to connect it.

Very cool though, LOVING the price!

[Mark McLeod]

Looks like only one ethernet port. Wonder if the camera will require the 8-slot model, or if FIRST will come up with another way to connect it.
We can connect our camera(s) to the DLink as an alternate now.
The second port isn't required any longer.

The picture access has expired though, so I can't see it.

[Mk.32]

Looks interesting, now my question is is there any hardware changes besides size?

Does it handle image processing better? More memory? Faster reboot? ETC.

Since our team already has two CRIOs, it doesn't seem like it is worth it to "upgrade".

[SkyWarrior]

I cannot see the picture. Can someone upload that again? Thank you very much in advance.

[Joe Ross]

When I talked to NI, they said it had twice as much ram and twice as much flash, and the same size FPGA.

[EricVanWyk]

When I talked to NI, they said it had twice as much ram and twice as much flash, and the same size FPGA.

Any mention of the processor?

[Zholl]

Any mention of the processor?

By my understanding it's the same microcontroller with fewer ports and more memory. That extra storage will probably be the only real performance boost you see

[MagiChau]

Is the model the cRIO-9076?

NI cRIO-9076 Product Pages:
LX45 FGPA: http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/209758
LX25 FGPA: http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/209757

[Joe Ross]

Is the model the cRIO-9076?

It looks like the same form factor, but the cRIO FRC2 has the same FPGA as the current cRIO, and not a virtex like the 9075/6.

[reuven]

did they say when the new cRIO will be sold to veteran teams?
its important to us (shipping time, customs etc....) in this side of the world

[MagiChau]

did they say when the new cRIO will be sold to veteran teams?
its important to us (shipping time, customs etc....) in this side of the world

Bill says he was told sometime in the fall, otherwise than that I do not know.

[Zholl]

By my understanding it's the same microcontroller with fewer ports and more memory. That extra storage will probably be the only real performance boost you see

I just wanted to correct myself here, as I did go and talk to an NI rep on Saturday after I posted this just to get it straight from the horses mouth. The differences we'll for those who don't want to read the specs are basically the smaller form factor, a smaller 2-pin power cable instead of that 4-pin we've been using, we lose the second network port and the DIP switches, more memory and flash, and a new chipset, which, while not exactly more powerful will still be faster than the old one

[RyanCahoon]

Any mention of the processor?

According to the FRC Live session (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8rt28uQuGM) it's a newer processor (Freescale 5125), but still at the same 400MHz clockspeed. Someone would probably have to go digging through manuals to find if there's any kind of performance benefit, i.e. between the ISAs.

--Ryan

[Alan Anderson]

They removed the physical DIP switches and one Ethernet connector. That cuts down on the number of places debris can find its way inside, and apparently a lot of teams have been breaking switches by using inappropriate tools (e.g. a large screwdriver) to flip them. The equivalent of "virtual DIP switches" can be set using software (the MAX tool, I think). Holding down the reset button for the right time will boot the cRIO in safe mode.

The FPGA is a newer one with the possibility of DSP features being used.

The power connector is the same size, but it only has two pins instead of four. The new cRIO will function down to 9 volts (the old one dropped out at 19), so prototyping and development power options are less limited.

The types of modules supported in each slot is still defined by the FPGA image. The fourth slot isn't yet set; they'll be using team input such as results from the Kit of Parts survey to decide what to do with it.

It sounded like teams are eligible this fall to buy both a full system (~$550) and a bare chassis (~$300).

[ratdude747]

must be soon; they already had 2 samples at the NI area in the pits.

I wonder if the crio will be wired like the old IFI controllers with a 20A run from the distribution board or if the 24v connector will continue to be used.

I like the new 2c connector and the wire shell it provides. that is a nice feature since the existing 4c connectors tend to lose their wires a lot.

[jhersh]

It looks like the same form factor, but the cRIO FRC2 has the same FPGA as the current cRIO, and not a virtex like the 9075/6.

The FPGA in the cRIO-FRC2 is the same Xilinx Spartan 6 LX45 that is in the cRIO-9076.

-Joe

[jhersh]

I wonder if the crio will be wired like the old IFI controllers with a 20A run from the distribution board or if the 24v connector will continue to be used.

You should still connect it to the 24V connector for competition so you are taking advantage of the regulation on the PD that will keep your cRIO operating even if the battery drops to 5V.

[jhersh]

According to the FRC Live session (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8rt28uQuGM) it's a newer processor (Freescale 5125), but still at the same 400MHz clockspeed. Someone would probably have to go digging through manuals to find if there's any kind of performance benefit, i.e. between the ISAs.

--Ryan

Bigger cache and higher memory bandwidth.

[artdutra04]

Since the photo posted earlier in the thread is now a broken link, here's another photo of the cRio FRC2:

http://i.imgur.com/KSB9V.jpg

[Alan Anderson]

One more pair of factoids: the mounting holes through the base are smaller, and there are only two holes at the end of the chassis instead of three.

[Trent B]

It sounded like teams are eligible this fall to buy both a full system (~$550) and a bare chassis (~$300).

So in other words if our team has one compact rio now we could, for 850 dollars have 3 chassis (1 old, 2 new) with one of each of the 3 modules if what you believe you heard was correct.

[slijin]

So in other words if our team has one compact rio now we could, for 850 dollars have 3 chassis (1 old, 2 new) with one of each of the 3 modules if what you believe you heard was correct.

The bare chassis alone will cost $300; the bare chassis with the Analog Breakout, Digital Sidecar, and Solenoid Breakout modules will cost $550.

I personally doubt that you will be able to purchase both packages for the lump sum of $850 because it is likely that some sort of discount for the first purchase of the year will be instituted, and then a full price will be charged for all the other purchases (as has been the system with cRIOs for the past 2 years).

[artdutra04]

I personally doubt that you will be able to purchase both packages for the lump sum of $850 because it is likely that some sort of discount for the first purchase of the year will be instituted, and then a full price will be charged for all the other purchases (as has been the system with cRIOs for the past 2 years).It was mentioned at FRC Live that the bare chassis would be considered an "upgrade" cRIO, whereas the full chassis with modules would be an "extra" cRIO. Thus, for the first year they are available, a team would be able to purchase both one upgrade and one extra for a total of $850.

[thefro526]

You should still connect it to the 24V connector for competition so you are taking advantage of the regulation on the PD that will keep your cRIO operating even if the battery drops to 5V.

After speaking with one of the NI Reps at the Championship, the impression that I got was that the New CRio was being designed so that it could run on 12V, eliminating the need for 24V power from the PD board. But, I may have been wrong in my interpretation.

Overall, I'm happy with the idea of a newer smaller CRio, considering that we've never used more than 4 of the slots in the original CRio - and I'm happy that someone somewhere is listening to the feedback teams have been giving over the last few years in respect to the CRio.

[Jared Russell]

After speaking with one of the NI Reps at the Championship, the impression that I got was that the New CRio was being designed so that it could run on 12V, eliminating the need for 24V power from the PD board. But, I may have been wrong in my interpretation.


Considering that my team as well as a few others were able to brown out the cRIO when under heavy load (6+ CIMs + RS775s near stall at once) at various points this year, I certainly intend on using the 24V regulated supply if it is still allowed. You could probably run on an unregulated 12V supply for a benchtop test, but I wouldn't trust it when traction wheels meet carpet.

[MikeE]

They removed the physical DIP switches and one Ethernet connector. That cuts down on the number of places debris can find its way inside...

I'm sure NI have real statistics, but from my viewpoint as an occassional CSA this is a significant improvement to control system reliability.

[FrankJ]

The guys at the NI booth seemed to think it would be available in the fall. The new CRIO is being cost optimized to include what is needed & removes unneeded features. Aside from the size, I expect most teams will not see any difference in the performance. I was amazed at the quality of the people staffing the NI booth at the worlds. Lots of good information. Thanks NI for being there.

The camera will plug into the router. The default IP address on the camera will need to be reset to be in the right subnet. To make the camera image appear on the dashboard, you will need to re-point the image viewer in the dashboard to the camera's new IP address. The NI guys say this is much better. There is a white paper at www.ni.com/first (http://www.ni.com/first) on how to do this. To use the camera image in the CRIO, you will obviously need to use its IP address.

Axis White Paper (http://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-15144)

[nuttle]

A feature that would be very nice, particuarly with fewer slots, is the ability (implemented in the FPGA image that teams are required to use) to have some flexibility in terms of which modules can be used in which slots. If nothing else, having the fourth slot be able to work with more than one type of module would be very good. Some teams might want two analog input modules, while others might want two digital I/O modules, as an example. This is especially true if it becomes hard to obtain the original 8-slot cRIO at some point in the future.

[Mr. Lim]

Really liking what I see so far!

1) Like others have said, the ability to use different modules in the 4th slot will be key. If it means I have 3 different cRIO images to flash - one each for the 3 different possible modules - I can happily live with that.

2) If option #1 isn't available, then my vote goes to making the 4th slot support a "solenoid" module, and relaxing the rules on what we can hook up to them. We can do a lot with those sourcing modules, as they put out enough current to directly power a lot of useful things on our robots. We simply just aren't allowed to hook them up right now.