View Full Version : 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
What do you think FIRST did this year that could stand improvment for future years?
alectronic
01-05-2011, 17:29
can a mod change the title of this thread. thanks.
Robby Unruh
01-05-2011, 17:53
When it comes to the complaints regarding how FIRST went around having the champs at St. Louis, a couple at the hotel we stayed at made an excellent point. "This is their first year doing it here, they're just as new as we are."
So I think it's safe to say that we can keep all the complaints about the cramped bleachers, bad views the nosebleed seats gave you, and the scattered pits. I'm sure they will have all that sorted out next year.
- edit -
Some negatives; the dang refs! I could easily see some red cards that needed to be thrown out in the semi-final matches on Einstein. What were they thinking letting those slide like that!
Yeah, I'd agree with the seating thoughts, Robby. I only saw one potential red, though, and I think it might have been on a division field.
What I think FIRST really messed up on was communication. Probably 3/4 of the negative comments surrounding the Championship were because there was no clear-cut reason given for the field move. Now that we know that FTC moved one FRC field and the concert made the transitions "easier" than figuring out one field, I honestly think that 75% of the negative comments could have been avoided by somewhat clearer communication from HQ. Ditto for timing of communication and some other similar things. (We can debate elsewhere whether FTC really had to bump an FRC field due to space.)
We asked for transparency. They gave us that. Now, can communication come along with transparency? I hope so.
Tom Line
01-05-2011, 18:16
Overall my experience in St. Louis was positive, but there were some stand-out issues that FIRST really needs to address.
1. Practice fields. This was a sore point of mine from last year, where they shut down and tore down the practice fields IMMEDIATELY following the last match of qualifications. Teams that were trying to tune up their robots or check fixes for eliminations couldn't do it.
Despite using every piece of 'feedback' at my disposal, they did it again. But even WORSE that that was the handling of the fields Friday morning. They shut those fields down for over 2 and half hours at the start of the day so that 'everyone would go to the opening ceremony'. Really? 172 teams trying to use a small field, wait times of over 3 hours, constantly goofed up sign-in sheets (our team number was actually scribbled off twice while we were standing there waiting to go on the field). This isn't a jab at the field personnel - they were clearly doing their best in a tough situation.
2. Get the FRC fields out of the pits. They don't belong there. Hopefully, the lesson was learned on this one.
3. Bring the music back on Einstein. There's really no reason not to be playing it - there are technical ways around it if you're doing a broadcast or filming it. Voiceovers, etc. The finals matches and, indeed, all the Einstein matches were dead with almost zero noise.
4. Give us more time after the last match to finalize scouting. with a 6 or 7 way tie for 3rd place only determined by ranking score, there was simply no way to really know the picking order until that last match was played.
5. Why was a boom lift operator driving his boom lift through the Archimedes pit as people were packing out, extending the boom and sweeping it over dozens and dozens of students? Where I work, not clearing out the people and roping off the area for safety would get you immediately escorted out as a major safety violation.
6. Garbage cans in the pits. Where the heck were they? The place looked like a garbage dump by the end of the competition.
7. Why were all the front doors of the stadium locked, forcing all the teams to walk around the build to enter?
There's more, but I want to think on it before going further.
torihoelscher
01-05-2011, 18:43
(I changed my title)
Okay, negatives...
~Pits was a disaster trying to go from one place to another and getting ran over by robots, always constantly hearing "Robot" which after a while it does get a little annoying. lol lol. (no offense)
~The teams having to walk around the whole dome to get back to the pits.
~The boxed lunches really did not taste good and made people sick.
~Einstein should have had music or something to made it pop out more.
~Crowded stands.
I know there is another thread for the positives but I have to say:
~Concert was amazing.
~The dome seats were great.
~Easier pit access from the Newton fields.
~Great hot dome food.
~Carnival was great!!
~Amazing free gifts! (got a new wardrobe 5 new shirts)
~Meeting new people.
Thank you FIRST and everyone that came to the Championships~! I cannot wait until next year!!! :) :) :) I am addicted to FIRST!
This was a great experience!
rzoeller
01-05-2011, 18:59
My one complaint would have to be that several matches were called at the 7-ish second mark, after 4 minibots had scored. This may seem harmless, but I know of several teams capable of deploying and then scoring a tube, including ours. Fortunately, we were not affected by this, but for a game with so many rules, it seems necessary to obey one of the simplest: the clock.
Daniel_LaFleur
01-05-2011, 19:08
My one complaint would have to be that several matches were called at the 7-ish second mark, after 4 minibots had scored. This may seem harmless, but I know of several teams capable of deploying and then scoring a tube, including ours. Fortunately, we were not affected by this, but for a game with so many rules, it seems necessary to obey one of the simplest: the clock.
Ahem
<G02> The AUTONOMOUS PERIOD ends when the ARENA timer displays zero seconds. The MATCH ends if all TOWERS are TRIGGERED or when the ARENA timer displays zero seconds, whichever comes first.
Seems they are obeying the rules ;)
pfreivald
01-05-2011, 19:16
It would be nice to have a designated queuing lane through the pit(s), so that robots coming from and going to the field would have a clear (or almost-always clear) lane of travel to/from the field and their pit aisle. I think this would be safer, too.
We couldn't watch our division finals because of a lack of room on the bleachers. It would be great if more bleacher space could be had next year.
As usual, the speeches/presentations during the finals were too many and too long. I had three family members who were completely unfamiliar with FIRST come for the entire day Saturday. One of them actually fell asleep DURING THE FINALS because of the speeches, only to wake somewhat disoriented for the next game. For an organization that seeks to use the sports model to make innovation and design exciting (and thus inspiring), they really don't seem to get it when it comes to the finals and speeches. Can you imagine trying to get someone into basketball, and then stopping the action after every shot (or shot clock) during the fourth quarter of the finals so that people could give a speech?
So to reiterate: Overall, good job. But Dean and friends, you have some homework!
As usual, the speeches/presentations during the finals were too many and too long. I had three family members who were completely unfamiliar with FIRST come for the entire day Saturday. One of them actually fell asleep DURING THE FINALS because of the speeches, only to wake somewhat disoriented for the next game. For an organization that seeks to use the sports model to make innovation and design exciting (and thus inspiring), they really don't seem to get it when it comes to the finals and speeches. Can you imagine trying to get someone into basketball, and then stopping the action after every shot (or shot clock) during the fourth quarter of the finals so that people could give a speech?
When Dean says it's not about the robot he really means it.
We're gonna get a speech whether we want it or not and of we complain we'll get even more.
pfreivald
01-05-2011, 19:39
When Dean says it's not about the robot he really means it.
We're gonna get a speech whether we want it or not and of we complain we'll get even more.
It wouldn't bother me if it didn't go against the "let's make it loud" mantra.
Speeches I can handle. I'm a teacher -- I've been to my share of conference days.
What I have a hard time reconciling is a logical disconnect between objective and method.
P.S. Does this mean you finally made it home, Ed?
It wouldn't bother me if it didn't go against the "let's make it loud" mantra.
Speeches I can handle. I'm a teacher -- I've been to my share of conference days.
What I have a hard time reconciling is a logical disconnect between objective and method.
P.S. Does this mean you finally made it home, Ed?
No.
I'm in a hotel in Columbus.
Most posts are dealing with nationals, but I would like to say that too many points was rewarded for the end game. Teams could just wait for the end and not worry about being able to drive and be able to score tubes. More points for the teleop period and less for the end game.
pfreivald
01-05-2011, 19:45
No.
I'm in a hotel in Columbus.
Ah. Get home safe and sane, Mr. Queue-master, sir!
Grim Tuesday
01-05-2011, 20:16
I think the biggest issue was the difference between the qualification game, and the elimination game.
In quals, it was still to your disadvantage to play defense, despite the system being changed this year.
Furthermore, with many low scoring matches (remember regionals, guys, not just champs!), many of them were decided by whomever had the best/working minibot. Once eliminations rolled around, minibots became much less important.
This meant that teams who were minibot specialists, and weren't so great at scoring got seeded high(er) than they should have, and ended up losing.
I also disliked how the GDC made a way they "wanted" the game to be played, and it did not involve defense. They went so far as to change the rules such that certain varieties of defense we illegal...5 weeks into the season.
Also, I felt that they game wasn't too approachable to those outside of FIRST. Your doing what? People say. Hanging logos. How can you hang a logo? Then you would have to explain that it was actually inflatable tubes shaped like pieces of the FIRST logo.
It felt a bit like an advert for FIRST.
Finally, I'm not a fan of Will.I.am. Sure, he's cool, but is he the new cool? He obviously doesn't 'get' FIRST, as his "it's dope" comment at kickoff notated. We don't need celebrities, performers, or anyone else to help us feel cool. I would rather Andy Baker be at champs than Will.i.am.
Now, dont get me wrong, I had a great season, so after I finish my homework, I can get off my soapbox, and go into the positives thread!
It would be nice to have a designated queuing lane through the pit(s), so that robots coming from and going to the field would have a clear (or almost-always clear) lane of travel to/from the field and their pit aisle. I think this would be safer, too.
We couldn't watch our division finals because of a lack of room on the bleachers. It would be great if more bleacher space could be had next year.
As usual, the speeches/presentations during the finals were too many and too long. I had three family members who were completely unfamiliar with FIRST come for the entire day Saturday. One of them actually fell asleep DURING THE FINALS because of the speeches, only to wake somewhat disoriented for the next game. For an organization that seeks to use the sports model to make innovation and design exciting (and thus inspiring), they really don't seem to get it when it comes to the finals and speeches. Can you imagine trying to get someone into basketball, and then stopping the action after every shot (or shot clock) during the fourth quarter of the finals so that people could give a speech?
So to reiterate: Overall, good job. But Dean and friends, you have some homework!
I definitely agree on space between the pits and more bleachers.
However, I think there would be no way to solve your problem with the speeches; during finals the teams still have to have enough time to get ready for their next matches, so if there weren't any speeches then we'd have been staring at paper airplanes and people working on robots across the stadium for five minutes anyway.
I did feel like there should have been better seating for the concert. One person suggested having it on the longer side of the stadium so there would be more space on the lower levels. Perhaps just sticking more teams in the standing area would have helped as well, since it seemed a little empty in places.
pfreivald
01-05-2011, 20:30
during finals the teams still have to have enough time to get ready for their next matches
...so at a start we can move the almost 30 minutes of speeches that happened before the matches to between the matches...
Yes, there were times that teams weren't quite ready, but there were more times when robots were sitting as long as their teams were, but yakkity-yak was still the order of the day.
Something should be done (besides turning it into a 'gee I'd better stay on script!' joke). I'm just sayin'...
Chris is me
01-05-2011, 20:36
Finally, I'm not a fan of Will.I.am. Sure, he's cool, but is he the new cool? He obviously doesn't 'get' FIRST, as his "it's dope" comment at kickoff notated. We don't need celebrities, performers, or anyone else to help us feel cool. I would rather Andy Baker be at champs than Will.i.am.
I'm really confused why "it's dope" somehow shows a profound misunderstanding of FIRST. Can you elaborate?
The pits by the fields were loud but this could be fixed with half height curtains around entire field.
Crowded bleachers on the pit fields. Could be helped by taller bleachers with more rows. And teams not saving seats. Heard of some very poor behavior by teams I had higher expectations of.
Not enough trash containers for all the trash. Made it difficult to properly dispose of trash.
HOF off in a corner of the pit where it was hard to find. Should have been in the public walkway area.
Need a good web page for the public to learn of the event.
More signage to direct the public at the event.
Leave the food out until the end of the mentor breakfast.
If the GDC wants to make rules to emphasize offence & lots of scoring, fine. But if so the rules to do that need to be less subjective. A great example is the "flow of the game" in G48-C. There was a lot of inconsistency in how blockading was (or was not) called; no surprise there.
Better balance would also help. Giving a red card for accidentally brushing a tube possessed by a robot in the lane? Seriously? How on earth is that worse than "Repeated or egregious violations...." of rule G48-B (*deliberately* contacting an opposing robot inside its frame perimeter) drawing only a *possible* yellow card? The situation is made even worse by allowing that red card to be caused by the other team.
Grim Tuesday
01-05-2011, 22:01
I'm really confused why "it's dope" somehow shows a profound misunderstanding of FIRST. Can you elaborate?
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3Adope
Definitions of dope on the Web:
pot: street names for marijuana
take drugs to improve one's athletic performance
dumbbell: an ignorant or foolish person
add impurities to (a semiconductor) in order to produce or modify its properties; "The resistors have been doped"
cola: carbonated drink flavored with extract from kola nuts (`dope' is a southernism in the United States)
give a narcotic to; "The athletes were dope by the coach before the race"
slang terms for inside information; "is that the straight dope?"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Yeah, I realize that it was meant to mean "cool/good", but I don't think it was the right word. It also showed that he didn't really know anything about the game at all.
To add to things I didn't like was referees not calling penalties on teams because they "didn't know the rules". In Boston, a team was repeatedly knocking tubes out of our gripper, and taking them. The head ref refused to call them, because they A: Didn't posses the tubes for more than one second
B: Something to do with them not knowing the rules
The team came over to us and apologized later, but it made us lose the match, and drop quite long way in seeding. Speaking of that, sometimes a red card isn't a good enough reparation. When you lose a match due to someone jostling you during the endgame, they get a red card, and you lose the match. You still drop just as far as you would have had they not gotten the red card. I don't think there is any way to avoid it, but hey, we're FIRST, we can think of ways to innovate!
Peyton Yeung
01-05-2011, 22:21
I find that getting a yellow card in addition to a red card is unnecessary. It makes it so you can't screw up again. Every time you get a yellow card from that point of you get a red card again. It basically is a chain reaction where a team gets a red card to start and then gets a red card for every single new card they get.
torihoelscher
01-05-2011, 22:21
Crowded bleachers on the pit fields. Could be helped by taller bleachers with more rows. And teams not saving seats. Heard of some very poor behavior by teams I had higher expectations of.
What field were you on? I had teams surrounding me in the stands and it did get annoying at times! But if we had more seats, it would have stunned the issues.
DonRotolo
01-05-2011, 22:25
I would rather Andy Baker be at champs than Will.i.am.
We got both. But the latter will draw more to a TV special than the former. FIRST needs that exposure.
Most of my complaints are minor, and have mostly been mentioned. In order of importance:
1. Leave the doors at hall 5 open, so the walk to the dome (via the courtyard) is short. My knees hurt today.
2. Six fields in the dome please, I know it can be done. I'm OK with the concert - this is a LOT bigger than most folks realize - but next year let's focus on the overall experience for the teams. (And if fields are in the pits again, More Seats!! a 50% increase would still not be enough)
3. Power in the bleachers PLEASE. Few teams scout on paper, and technology needs power. We Can Share, honest!
4. More Trash Pails
5.Better food by the pits, and keep it available longer. The line at funnel cakes was 50 people at 2pm Friday, simply because that was the only thing resembling food available. Not At All Healthy.
Noise level was almost acceptable, but I use ear plugs and it wasn't a huge issue. Our pit was facing the field and my voice hoarse all the time from having to shout to communicate to someone 2 feet away...the whole weekend.
I'll post in the "things liked" thread later, but for a first year location, this was very well-organized, laid out and run. It was actually better-run than Atlanta, even though STL had never done this before. Outstanding!
Don
DonRotolo
01-05-2011, 22:27
And teams not saving seats. Heard of some very poor behavior by teams I had higher expectations of.
Including 1676. I had to chastize some of the well-intentioned parents on our team TWICE to stop saving seats in the bleachers. :mad:
If you don't have a butt to fill that seat, you don't need it. When the butt arrives, we'll make room.
pfreivald
01-05-2011, 22:54
We had some encounters with a very, very obnoxious parent -- actually screaming at people who sat in seats, and not once (which is unacceptable) or twice (which is equally unacceptable) but continuously for 30+ minutes (which is unacceptable but hilarious insofar as it doesn't keep us from viewing the games).
As with most things, this is unenforceable by fiat, so the expectations should be made so clear that it is almost entirely enforceable through social pressure. (Isn't social change what it's all about?)
That said, playing in football stadia and needing to save seats equates to a failure of the social-event design process, IMO... More iterations are needed!
BrendanB
01-05-2011, 23:17
I really think that FIRST needs to start making announcments at the beginning of events. If saving seats is a rule then lets make sure it happens! I am horrified of stories I have heard from the public who attend events not with teams!
For anyone complaining about FIRST events and speeches especially Dean's, come to GSR or any event that he goes to! I have been to 13 regionals with a "Dean" speech and the more I focus on his message the more the hour plus he speaks flies by. This is a robotics competition with a message. Had Einstein had music then I'm sure that it wouldn't have been so bad.
rocknthehawk
01-05-2011, 23:26
What field were you on? I had teams surrounding me in the stands and it did get annoying at times! But if we had more seats, it would have stunned the issues.
Curie was packed, and the bleachers appeared to be smaller.
Blackphantom91
01-05-2011, 23:46
Curie was packed, and the bleachers appeared to be smaller.
I feel you on that one
It was strait up communication and delivery for me, the rest of the tournament was excellent. I also think that it was cool to do a game that's similar to another but It also cuts the work and design process significant and teams that did well in 07 also did well in 11 (not to take away anything from them they deserve to be where they are). Mini bots where the coolest thing to me.
Field issues. I observed at least 2 major FMS problems during StL. Following opening ceremonies Friday, I stopped in front of the Curie field to watch the first match of the day. 5 seconds into teleop, the buzzer blares and the timer goes to 0, ending the match.
During our first elimination match, the field timer apparently jumped from 16 to 6 seconds or something of the sort, resulting in the refs nullifying that match result.
Needless to say, I was sorely disappointed by the persistence of such an issue into the Championships.
On a side note, I saw at least 2 instances of towers being triggered by bots crashing into them, leaving VERY close minibot races up to human judgment, which imho, cannot be empirically accurate nor reliable in a race between 1-2s minibots. Putting light compression springs on the suspension bolts would have been a very simple fix to that issue, even if it was a slight modification to field design.
On a side note, I saw at least 2 instances of towers being triggered by bots crashing into them, leaving VERY close minibot races up to human judgment, which imho, cannot be empirically accurate nor reliable in a race between 1-2s minibots. Putting light compression springs on the suspension bolts would have been a very simple fix to that issue, even if it was a slight modification to field design.
On a related note, I saw several issues of towers failing to trigger. We failed to trip the sensor on one of the Curie-field towers, and our scouts say that tower failed to register at least one more hit, from 1718 (and that's only one tower, on one day)
More issues:
Seating (already discussed)
Aside from the seating issues on the pit fields, I though the event ran very well.
Crowded bleachers on the pit fields. Could be helped by taller bleachers with more rows. And teams not saving seats. Heard of some very poor behavior by teams I had higher expectations of.
On a related note, there were some people who did not clear the pits during Opening Ceremonies, despite being asked to do so multiple times. The FTA on Galileo was not happy when a few kids kept coming back to the stands a few minutes after he had just asked them to leave, and those kids were from a very reputable team. The best way to describe their attitudes was "teenage punk".
There were also several teams that returned to the pit early, though I can understand that a bit more if they were in the first match of the day, since apparently those teams didn't have a lot of time to get to the fields.
Edit: I just realized that the post above me also starts with "On a related note". Oh, the little things in life...
Aren_Hill
02-05-2011, 01:32
We were asked to clear the pits friday morning for opening ceremonies, to which i responded by pulling out a manual and having a civil discussion with the volunteer regarding the actual rules pertaining to said events.
In the "At the events" section of the manual
4.10.1 All Teams Should Attend
We encourage all team members to attend the ceremonies, on time, to show appreciation for the event and those people involved who are volunteering their time and efforts.
4.10.2 Pit Manners/Rules During the Ceremonies
- Team members will not be allowed to use power tools, hammers or other noisy tools during the ceremonies.
- All persons in the Pit should observe the code of behavior for the presentation of all national anthems:
o Maintain a respectful silence;
o Stand, facing the flag. If there is no flag, look toward the video screen showing a flag; and
o ALL hats off please.
The volunteer then took the manual back to his superior and returned to us informing us we would be allowed to stay as long as we followed the listed rules, which we did.
This same situation happened in Wisconsin only I wasn't as well versed on that section of the manual, lesson learned.
At no point does it say "empty the pits" or "only two people" or half the other things being told to teams, and this goes for every event.
I thoroughly thanked the volunteer for participating in a healthy discussion and taking to correct course of action, which is more than can be said for some other encounters we've had this season.
If my robot is operating 100%, I'll be at the ceremonies, if it is not then it has my attention until it is. This is how I believe it should stay as it is disrespectful to a team who has put in countless hours constructing it to not allow allotted(1) time to make sure it is working properly.
(1) The champs agenda says Pits open at 7:15am and close at 8pm, I count this as allotted pit time
This was more of a positive at champs, but is in response to a post here.
Including 1676. I had to chastize some of the well-intentioned parents on our team TWICE to stop saving seats in the bleachers. :mad:
If you don't have a butt to fill that seat, you don't need it. When the butt arrives, we'll make room.
It seems to me that parents are more or less the problem.
They are very aggressive about protecting the interests of their own team instead of the values of FIRST,
My team was denied a place to sit twice by two different teams. I told them just take them off your list (ironically one we ended up working with in the elims and the other was never on our list in the first place).
Apparently FIRST has some sort of Poor Behaviour Reporting Forum to turn in when these things happen. So what is a civillian supposed to do when they show up and are rejected and ejected by an overzealous and territorial team? Maybe Dean needs to make nipping this behavior in the bud homework for the teams.
1. Seating in the pits. There was nowhere to eat in the pits except for to sit on the floor. If you don't want food in the pits, I understand that - but don't put vendors there!
2. Severe lack of trash receptacles in the pits. I'm surprised the pits were as clean as they were, given the minimal trash can situation (and the fact that these cans were always full anyway)
rotolomi
02-05-2011, 09:41
Overall in my opinion, well executed for the first year. But, of course, there were negatives.
- The bleachers in the pits. I had several problems with them. I didn't care so much that they were right next to the pits (in my opinion the short distance was very convenient). The small bleachers left a lot of people standing in the way in the pits trying to see matches. The bleachers were very uncomfortable and made my already bad back miserable (but not much can be done about that, I've never sat on comfortable bleachers...). There was so much garbage that gathered beneath the bleachers because everything kept falling through them. My jacket dropped 3 times as did my wallet and my GameBoy (unless my GameBoy was stolen).
- The long walk from the Dome to the pits. It was annoying to have to walk what felt like half a mile to get to the pits. Also, the Dome was a bit confusing to get around in - but that could also be just me.
- Safety glasses were required to get to the stands in the pits. Quite a few members of my team were left stranded, not allowed into the stands, because they did not have their safety glasses on them and you had to cross the pits to get to the stands. I know that there were safety glasses that could be borrowed, but it was a minor inconvenience to have to turn around and get your safety glasses if you wanted to leave the stands.
- The food. Maybe I just don't look in the right places but the food (including boxed lunches/dinners) was, as usual, overpriced and gross. All the food that I saw in the pits and in the area outside the pits was either unhealthy (cough cough, funnel cakes) or gross (did anyone else make the mistake of buying the Chinese food?) and all of it was overpriced. Apparently the food in the Dome was good, but the Newton division was in the pits for 2/3 of the competition and the Dome was a very long walk (see my 2nd bullet).
- Lack of trash cans. You had to walk across the pits to throw something away, and there were no trash cans in the stands, so garbage accumulated quickly.
- Power. My team used a boat battery for power because we scout with our laptops and there was no power available in the stands.
So only a few minor issues that have been more or less discussed already, but overall a good, fun competition :)
Tom Line
02-05-2011, 09:41
Field issues. I observed at least 2 major FMS problems during StL. Following opening ceremonies Friday, I stopped in front of the Curie field to watch the first match of the day. 5 seconds into teleop, the buzzer blares and the timer goes to 0, ending the match.
During our first elimination match, the field timer apparently jumped from 16 to 6 seconds or something of the sort, resulting in the refs nullifying that match result.
Needless to say, I was sorely disappointed by the persistence of such an issue into the Championships.
On a side note, I saw at least 2 instances of towers being triggered by bots crashing into them, leaving VERY close minibot races up to human judgment, which imho, cannot be empirically accurate nor reliable in a race between 1-2s minibots. Putting light compression springs on the suspension bolts would have been a very simple fix to that issue, even if it was a slight modification to field design.
Those were not field issues. The field crew has a method of testing the fields that involves running a 'fast' auton that is only 5 seconds. They accidentally left that setup in and tried to run matches (several times). Oops!
torihoelscher
02-05-2011, 09:43
Curie was packed, and the bleachers appeared to be smaller.
In Newton it was insane. Very nice people and also so not very nice people...but it happens. Had a lot of fun none the less!!
Jared Russell
02-05-2011, 09:45
THE CHAMPIONSHIP:
1. Putting FRC fields in the pits in order to showcase FTC. Just a horrible idea. Maybe work on making FTC into a competitive and cost-effective product instead of relegating your premier program to cramped bleachers.
2. There were still issues with things like minibot poles and field timer displays.
3. The fields in the domes (at least Galileo/Newton) were too close to the seats - those higher up had a poor view angle of the near side of the field.
4. The Saturday night boxed dinner was readily available, but of extremely poor quality (IMO).
5. They may as well have put the Hall of Fame in the basement, seeing how remote it was from anything else FRC.
6. The Chairman's Award presentation was inferior to the old format. We never even got to see their video!
7. All in all, I loved the venue. But to nitpick, it seemed like there were far fewer men's rooms for such a venue than one would have expected, and too few stalls in each.
EVERYTHING ELSE:
1. The game's primary challenge was one that we had already done recently, leading to a ton of 2007 clone robots.
2. 1:50 teleop + 0:15 autonomous gameplay with a 120 lb. robot could be nullified by 2 seconds of gameplay with a 2.5 lb. robot. The end game was worth way, way, way too much.
3. BaneBots. Their motors were case shorted. Their gearboxes were unavailable and of inferior quality to the options available for other motors.
4. The constant patching of rules through team updates to try and remove defense from the game. The end result was rules with a lot of gray, and referees having to infer the intent of the robots on the field in order to hand out red cards. Interpretation varied WILDLY from event to event. What was a red card at the Philadelphia Regional was a 3 point penalty on Einstein. This NEEDS to be fixed.
5. The season of the over-inflated innertube. FIRST provided little guidance on the proper use of the jig inflation guide, and as a result, I witnessed enormous tubes being forced into the jig.
thefro526
02-05-2011, 10:09
The Game:
1) The scoring potential of the minibot was too high compared to the amount of time through the match that they were usable.
2) Diminishing returns for scoring tubes really lead to some boring matches at the highest level. "Why waste 15 seconds to score another tube and get 4 points when I can align for the mini-bot early to ensure I get 30 or 20 points" was a common discussion that took place.
3) The rules need to be written in such a way that they can be uniformly called from one event to the next. Each regional seemed to play by it's own rulebook, even though it was a derivative of the official rulebook, and the same can be said for the Championship Divisions.
4) There should never be more than one or two red card-able offenses in a game. There were numerous red cards called throughout high level play, most of which seemed to be results of accidents, and not intentional actions.
5) The seeding system seems to be failing as the overall quality of teams increases. In retrospect, the 2010 system seemed to work better, allowing a team to lose a match or two and still seed well. I noticed that because many good teams played other good teams, many of them slipped as they lost to another team of similar caliber if the other team had better partners.
The Championship:
1) Seating on the Pit Fields - the pit fields in themselves weren't THAT bad, but if FIRST choses to continue on with those fields, then they need to increase the seating by at least a 3rd, if not more. FIRST also needs to find a way to enforce the "No saving seats rule" though thankfully, many teams were willing to give up any extra seats for a match or two when I wanted to sit and watch.
2) HOF location, people have hit on it before. It was hard to find, and didn't really feel like the HOF.
3) Lack of trash cans. Maybe I didn't look hard enough, but it was pretty difficult to find a trashcan in the pits when I needed to. This may have contributed to the litter problems.
Bryan Herbst
02-05-2011, 10:19
Did anyone else notice that the floor in the stadium stands was incredibly sticky nearly everywhere?
Not sure if this was us spilling pop everywhere the first few days (it probably was), but when I arrived on Friday, this was definitely one of the things I noticed. Can we not keep a handle on our beverages?
BrendanB
02-05-2011, 10:32
Did anyone else notice that the floor in the stadium stands was incredibly sticky nearly everywhere?
Not sure if this was us spilling pop everywhere the first few days (it probably was), but when I arrived on Friday, this was definitely one of the things I noticed. Can we not keep a handle on our beverages?
I believe it was a chemical or something they put down. It saved several people from falling down the stairs in the nosebleeds and one that almost ended up in a kid falling over the railing! It isn't sticky when you touch it.
The Championship
1. I got an earful of stories re: teams who should know better and disgraceful treatment of volunteers and other teams. This includes stories about behaviors in the stands (with lack of adequate seating) and treatment of longtime volunteers in important jobs like queuing. Really? I don't care how highly ranked you are if your team acts like jerks.
2. Communications. I apologize to the approximately 100 people who politely inquired at the official info booth about opening ceremonies and were told that ceremonies would also be broadcast in the pits and they could watch from there. Since I was training the St. Louis convention bureau people I made sure to get this information from a very reliable source. So something happened somewhere.
3. There needs to be a designated lane to the bleachers in the pits to avoid wearing safety glasses. This issue caused lots of unnecessary angst and confusion.
4. I apologize to the person I grabbed by the back of the shirt to prevent them from walking into a shot we were trying to film for the big screen interviewing volunteers. They had every right to yell at me. It is never appropriate to touch a volunteer without their permission and I regretted it immediately. It was a knee jerk reaction.
5. There needs to be a guide accompanying the maps. Another way to locate what you are looking for on the map. For example: "Boy Scouts of America" and you would see coordinates on a pit map like "E-9" or have a room listed. I spent hours trying to collect information on where everything was. Many of the published lists show times but not locations. This was a very confusing venue for the public. I missed the web hug :( because I was trying to help someone locate someplace.
6. Trash cans. Recycling, including a way to recycle all those plastic containers provided for all the box lunches and dinners. Lightbulbs aren't the only way to save the planet.
7. More signage and more concrete signage to help people navigate.
8. A real lost and found available for all the activities. Not just in the pits.
For us, FIRST Championship was an extremely positive experience. We had a blast and look forward to returning in the future. But as long as you asked:
1. The Curie Bleacher situation was wholly inadequate during the qualification rounds and worse for eliminations. Significantly more seating is necessary.
2. There needs to be a path (separate entrance?) to the fields that doesn't require safety glasses. The lines for safety glasses and pit entry could have been reduced and streamlined.
3.Garbage cans would have been nice. What was that sticky stuff on the floor in the dome?
4.Sound system needs improvement and should be checked/tested periodically. Announcements were made over each other and were generally inaudible. Seating in the dome requires use of the sides. It would have been nice to have the speakers from the side fields on during Einstein and the awards so all could hear. If it weren't for Bill's tweets, we wouldn't have had any idea what was going on.
5.Speeches were way too long particularly before the Finals and Awards.
6. A match should NEVER start if Field Connectivity has not been established and teams indicate that they are not ready. We and our playing partners work too hard to get to this point to have a field issue leave us for dead. And unfortunately, it was not an isolated instance.
7.Five minutes spent with each team is under 30 hours in total. Everybody here deserves some time in the sun with FIRST brass. I know it's tough, but it's necessary.
8.How about some readable maps and a schedule being available early to allow for some team planning to enhance the overall experience. Not knowing where things are and when they run is a problem.
The game:
We had A LOT of discussion about the extent of the minibot's design freedoms this year. There appeared to be conflicting information coming from FIRST (at kickoff) regarding intent with the minibot (showcase FTC) and what actually happened through interpretation of the rules (feed PITSCO money for all of the motors teams bought). It seems to me that if we could have figured out the true manufacturer of the motors, we could have saved ourselves a LOT of money. I'm referring to 2,000 teams overall, not simply my team.
The Championship:
I have no problem listening to a 24:55 speech from Dean Kamen. I DO have a problem listening to a 24:55 blurb of reverberating mumbling with an occasional discernible word here and there. The speakers for the sides of the Einstein field, after the curve of the stadium corners, were TERRIBLE. As a side note, Mr. Lavery should speak a little slower to mitigate the effect of his resonance. I understood him clearly during the mentor breakfast, but I couldn't make out a single thing he said during the closing ceremonies.
This next one is a bit of a rant, but I feel we need get further visibility into these types of things...
A lone Volunteer
There are some volunteers who have their priorities totally out of whack and I wish the other volunteers would take notice to it. Who's the person we can go to with legitimate complaints about volunteers? The guy who was responsible for getting teams off the field of the Galileo/Newton field in the Dome was rude to EVERYONE except those he already had relationships with.
If you needed an extra 2-3 seconds to properly set your robot down on your 4 cart supports, he'd gladly 'assist' you by pushing your robot down, pushing your cart forward, and telling you to 'get outta here'. Ours almost fell off as a result.
Is your cart misaligned to the two blue bumps that take you over the power cables? Well obviously since you're "young", you can lift your 200-lb robot+cart any which way he wants you to so you can then "get out of here!".
It's unfortunate that FIRST celebrates its mentors so much, yet there's no avenue for them to bring to FIRST's attention that ONE GUY is undermining it. Did he pull 14-15 hour days at work on Monday/Tuesday just so he could get Wed-Fri off? Did he tote a trailer full of tools for 15+ hours through mountains, and THEN unload everything in the rain on Wednesday? Is he working 12-15 hours at a time on his feet during competition? Did he walk even half of the 74,447 steps that I did during the overall competition?
Scalability
Lastly, I don't understand how the current FIRST model will scale to 150,000 teams that they joked about in their "top 10" list. I'll split this into robot versus business and scale it to something more pragmatic: 2,500 teams.
Within a region, as more teams are founded, the resources of the region will become thinned. Even if we do all we can to bring up the knowledge of teams to the same level, there will be a great disparity in the competition levels of the teams due to levels of funding. With only 1-2 things to do in a game, the teams with MORE funding will ALWAYS be able to trump the teams with less funding since they can afford to purchase more and do EVERYTHING in a game. Such purchases include COTS parts (like pneumatics not included in the free cylinders), expensive aluminum blocks to mill down for specialized/lightweight parts, and relatively expensive materials (honeycombed fiberglass anyone?) that have high strength/weight ratios. Either a class system similar to stock car racing (not NASCAR only, but think about local racing divisions) will have to be implemented OR we need more things to do in a game such that it's nearly impossible for 1 robot to 'do it all'. Otherwise we're really fooling ourselves when we think we're inspiring low-budget teams by continuously steamrolling them on the fields. I'll note that my team is neither 'low-budget' nor did we really get steamrolled by superior robots except for those matches where we shot ourselves in the foot anyways.
Chairman's Award and Engineering Inspiration continue to get diluted each year. Feedback from a judge at a Regional stated that the only differential between us and another team was that the other team had a more memorable presentation. At the championships (and I don't mean to undermine 1629, I know Phil and their program; they definitely deserve their award), the judges were forced into the same exact situation. We did as much as GaCo did for outreach, yet the TWO differentiators were that they got a building, and presentation. Given the amount of politicking that has to be done in some regions to do anything STEM related, comparing some teams is like comparing a red apple to a green apple -- it's totally subjective. As FIRST expands to more regionals, the CA/EI pool becomes more diluted, and we need even more inane differentiators it seems. At what point will it simply become wrong to only recognize TWO teams at a national level for the year? Maybe it made sense when there were 1250 teams & 35 regionals. But what about when FIRST hits 2500 teams and 70 regionals?
Travis Hoffman
02-05-2011, 11:39
THIS!
The MASSIVE backlog of humanity at the main pit entrance, trying to return to the pits following the opening ceremonies was ABSURD (luckily, I found a path less traveled).
FIRST, do yourselves a favor, FOLLOW YOUR OWN RULES! Curb some of that traffic, and stop trying to forcibly impose your flawed view of "you're only GP if you're at the opening ceremonies" on the relative few pit personnel from each team trying to prep their robot and operations for the day's activities.
Show some appreciation to THIS person who is involved and volunteering HIS own time and effort.
We were asked to clear the pits friday morning for opening ceremonies, to which i responded by pulling out a manual and having a civil discussion with the volunteer regarding the actual rules pertaining to said events.
In the "At the events" section of the manual
4.10.1 All Teams Should Attend
We encourage all team members to attend the ceremonies, on time, to show appreciation for the event and those people involved who are volunteering their time and efforts.
4.10.2 Pit Manners/Rules During the Ceremonies
- Team members will not be allowed to use power tools, hammers or other noisy tools during the ceremonies.
- All persons in the Pit should observe the code of behavior for the presentation of all national anthems:
o Maintain a respectful silence;
o Stand, facing the flag. If there is no flag, look toward the video screen showing a flag; and
o ALL hats off please.
The volunteer then took the manual back to his superior and returned to us informing us we would be allowed to stay as long as we followed the listed rules, which we did.
This same situation happened in Wisconsin only I wasn't as well versed on that section of the manual, lesson learned.
At no point does it say "empty the pits" or "only two people" or half the other things being told to teams, and this goes for every event.
I thoroughly thanked the volunteer for participating in a healthy discussion and taking to correct course of action, which is more than can be said for some other encounters we've had this season.
If my robot is operating 100%, I'll be at the ceremonies, if it is not then it has my attention until it is. This is how I believe it should stay as it is disrespectful to a team who has put in countless hours constructing it to not allow allotted(1) time to make sure it is working properly.
(1) The champs agenda says Pits open at 7:15am and close at 8pm, I count this as allotted pit time
This was more of a positive at champs, but is in response to a post here.
nuggetsyl
02-05-2011, 11:48
The Biggest negative I saw this year was in the newton Division you needed a step stool to go to the men's bathroom.
My only negative besides the one's already mentioned was the referee call to rematch one of our matches a day after the match.
Apparently there was a 4 second time discrepancy. I never noticed it on our match, but I did notice it on another match on Curie (in the dome Friday).
If there really was a 4 second time discrepancy, then it should have been handled right after our match, not a day later. On top of this, that match had a big difference in scores (something like 30 points), and with 4 seconds remaining, the other team had no way to score 30 points.
We tried to challenge the call, but the head referee was very rude about it. We asked if we could view the video footage, and he said no, and that he does not take into account video footage as proof.
A lone Volunteer
There are some volunteers who have their priorities totally out of whack and I wish the other volunteers would take notice to it. Who's the person we can go to with legitimate complaints about volunteers?
It's unfortunate that FIRST celebrates its mentors so much, yet there's no avenue for them to bring to FIRST's attention that ONE GUY is undermining it.
Dennis Howland, Volunteer Resources Manager, FIRST HQ, dhowland[at]usfirst[dot]org, 1-800-871-8326. This is public information.
There was also an overall volunteer coordinator for the event. I don't want to publicly broadcast his info, so I will pm.
Addition: If there is an issue with a volunteer during the event, seek out one of the divisional volunteer coordinators. This year they were wearing light blue shirts. Can find them through pit admin.
THIS!
The MASSIVE backlog of humanity at the main pit entrance, trying to return to the pits following the opening ceremonies was ABSURD (luckily, I found a path less traveled).
...
Agree.
The opening ceremonies ran long, then a huge mess trying to get out of the dome, and then to run into that crowd... ridiculous.
Travis, the path less traveled was probably the same that I took: nearer to the FTC pits. No crowd, no problems.
Jared Russell
02-05-2011, 12:07
The Biggest negative I saw this year was in the newton Division you needed a step stool to go to the men's bathroom.
THIS! I actually saw a Lego Leaguer walk in, take one look at the urinals, say "uh oh", and leave.
FIRST, do yourselves a favor, FOLLOW YOUR OWN RULES!
The cynic in my says that at this point, nothing prevents the GDC from changing next year's rules to the exact opposite of what they are this year. Perhaps we'll be fortunate for this one specific rule given all of the mayhem that happened.
Thanks for the info Jenny.
Chris Hibner
02-05-2011, 12:15
My only negative besides the one's already mentioned was the referee call to rematch one of our matches a day after the match.
Apparently there was a 4 second time discrepancy. I never noticed it on our match, but I did notice it on another match on Curie (in the dome Friday).
If there really was a 4 second time discrepancy, then it should have been handled right after our match, not a day later. On top of this, that match had a big difference in scores (something like 30 points), and with 4 seconds remaining, the other team had no way to score 30 points.
We tried to challenge the call, but the head referee was very rude about it. We asked if we could view the video footage, and he said no, and that he does not take into account video footage as proof.
With 4 seconds to go, 30 points is a stretch.
What about with 14 seconds to go? What if a team thought they had a lot of time to get to the minibot pole, only to find that the minibot race was already over? If one team gets 1st and 2nd, that's a 25 point advantage MINIMUM (more if the opposing alliance didn't get to deploy if time ran out while the clock they were looking at read 4 seconds).
Anyway, I wasn't involved in that match but with the ridiculous amount of points for the minibot race, 4 seconds is HUGE when minibot points are separated by miliseconds.
rotolomi
02-05-2011, 12:27
Did anyone else notice that the floor in the stadium stands was incredibly sticky nearly everywhere?
It got all over my sneakers and it's almost impossible to get off... I suppose it's good if it eliminates the risk of slipping, but it's still kind of gross.
Mike Betts
02-05-2011, 12:28
... We tried to challenge the call, but the head referee was very rude about it. We asked if we could view the video footage, and he said no, and that he does not take into account video footage as proof.
Ryan,
I am not trying to justify the issue. However, regarding video replays, he was prohibited from reviewing it even if he wanted to:
<T04> The Head Referee has the ultimate authority in the ARENA during the competition, but may receive input from additional sources, particularly Game Design Committee members, FIRST personnel, and technical staff that may be present at the event. THE HEAD REFEREE RULINGS ARE FINAL! The referee will not review recorded replays under any circumstances.Regards,
Mike
Edit: I am sympathetic to the ref in cases like this because I was head ref on one of the fields at VEX Worlds a few weeks ago. VRC had a similar rule in place, <T01>. I had at least 7 teams approach me during the competition with video cameras and I am quite sure that they considered by demeanor "rude" when I dismissed them. However, from my stand point, they were asking me to break the rules. I felt offended and that this was rude on their part...
It got all over my sneakers and it's almost impossible to get off... I suppose it's good if it eliminates the risk of slipping, but it's still kind of gross.
So that explains it. Was trying to figure out what I walked through that smelled like urinal cleaner.:rolleyes:
~Concert was amazing.
Not trying to be argumentative, but I used to run a sound board back in college (http://lnl.wpi.edu/index.html) for coffee house shows and other events, and I could not get over how poorly eq'd the vocal microphones were. All of the pre-recorded stuff sounded fine, and the opening DJ wasn't bad at all (who was he?), but all of the vocals sounded horrible from the 200 level of the stadium, hopefully it sounded better down on the floor, but I can't see how.
...so FIRST has been and continues to be cool, FIRST is now loud, maybe next year we can be THX Ultra2 certified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thx)
torihoelscher
02-05-2011, 16:01
Not trying to be argumentative, but I used to run a sound board back in college (http://lnl.wpi.edu/index.html) for coffee house shows and other events, and I could not get over how poorly eq'd the vocal microphones were. All of the pre-recorded stuff sounded fine, and the opening DJ wasn't bad at all (who was he?), but all of the vocals sounded horrible from the 200 level of the stadium, hopefully it sounded better down on the floor, but I can't see how.
...so FIRST has been and continues to be cool, FIRST is now loud, maybe next year we can be THX Ultra2 certified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thx)
oh i understand. my team and I were on the floor and the vocals were overwhelmed with bass that shook the life out of you! It was still amazing besides the vocal issue!
Well, this has been beaten to death, and I wasn't going to continue beating a dead horse, but I might as well get this off my chest.
I knew what to expect regarding the pit fields from reading CD, but our kids did not. I was unable to travel with the team and had to fly in Wed night. I met the team in the hotel for our team meeting, and the kids were excited about the awesome practice fields in the pits. I had to be the one to break it to them that those weren't nice practice fields. Those were the fields where we would be playing our first and third day of quals and our elimination matches, if we were good enough. At first they refused to believe me, then they were horrified.
They wanted to know why all four divisions weren't playing in the dome, and couldn't believe Dean would allow an entertainment act to displace the competition. When idols fall, they fall hard.
My feeling is that if there had been adequate seating for these fields, the tradeoff for the concert might have been worth it. But, because the pit field setup was so incredibly botched, our team and others were deprived of one of the promised rewards of attending the Championships.
The setup was so bad that we don't even have video of our pit qualification matches to show to those team members who were unable to watch our matches from the bleachers. At the two regionals we attended, we recorded all the matches in HD, posted some on youtube, and submitted video to the Blue Alliance. At the National Championships, which many parents were unable to attend, of which the kids most would like a keepsake, there wasn't room to set up a tripod in the center of the field.
The kids rightly claimed that even the off-season event we attend is set up better.
I believe that someone at FIRST made a conscious decision to move these fields to the pits to make room for the concert. I believe any of their claims to the contrary are at best disingenuous and at worst flat-out lies. I sincerely hope that FIRST makes changes for next year. But, for our seniors, who worked their hearts out for four years to finally make it to the National Championship for the first time, that comes too late.
As a rookie mentor, who contributed my valuable time, precious vacation days, and approached my employer for sponsorship money to send the team to this event, I feel I have a right to expect that the kids I have sacrificed for are treated as the stars of the show, not shuffled off to the side.
I await the arrival of the official event feedback survey with baited breath.
MadeAtMidnight
02-05-2011, 17:28
Overheard at one of the fields in the pits: "We invited all our sponsors, where are they supposed to sit?"
elemental
02-05-2011, 18:14
Overheard at one of the fields in the pits: "We invited all our sponsors, where are they supposed to sit?"
We had this problem also. Although one of our sponsors was able to get a seat, the team in front of us sitting in the first two rows stood through about 1.5 matches blocking the view of the field entirely.
To be fair, my team did stand but only when we were announced.
It seems to me that parents are more or less the problem.
They are very aggressive about protecting the interests of their own team instead of the values of FIRST,
My team was denied a place to sit twice by two different teams. I told them just take them off your list (ironically one we ended up working with in the elims and the other was never on our list in the first place).
Apparently FIRST has some sort of Poor Behaviour Reporting Forum to turn in when these things happen. So what is a civillian supposed to do when they show up and are rejected and ejected by an overzealous and territorial team? Maybe Dean needs to make nipping this behavior in the bud homework for the teams.
First off I enjoyed working with your team in eliminations. I have reasonable certainty that you are referencing my team above. We have a big team, and at this perticular event we had a large amount of parents and grandparents. Despite, I'm sorry if my team was withholding seats. I was not actually in the stands except for our own matches. However, it was clear to me that my team had taken over a significant amount of seats-- too many to not share. I can assure you that I'll be bringing up the issue at our next meeting to ensure that it does not happen again. I hope this does not too badly tarnish our reputation with you, we strive as a team to not only get along with other teams but to build bridges and relationships that will last. After all, competition is much more fun when you're in the company of friends.
Sorry again, Bryan
Bjenks548
02-05-2011, 20:13
I enjoyed Logomotion a ton.
-Important autonomous with the right amount of difficulty vs points
-Exciting teleop as teams developed strategies and defense increased
-End game was fun... in qualifications
I enjoyed the minibot race in qualifications because everyone thought theirs was faster. Unfortunately this stopped in eliminations. After the first match of 3 it became apparent who would win the minibot race, this was boring to me as I knew who would win and who would get the points.
Championship I missed Atlanta's Olympic park more then anything else, I wish St. Louis had a close park but it was fun anyway.
First off I enjoyed working with your team in eliminations. I have reasonable certainty that you are referencing my team above. We have a big team, and at this perticular event we had a large amount of parents and grandparents. Despite, I'm sorry if my team was withholding seats. I was not actually in the stands except for our own matches. However, it was clear to me that my team had taken over a significant amount of seats-- too many to not share. I can assure you that I'll be bringing up the issue at our next meeting to ensure that it does not happen again. I hope this does not too badly tarnish our reputation with you, we strive as a team to not only get along with other teams but to build bridges and relationships that will last. After all, competition is much more fun when you're in the company of friends.
Sorry again, Bryan I came in with several of our JFLL team and their parents to watch our first match on the pit field and was disheartened to find no seats available. My team was scattered all over just to sit. I saw a big opening in the bees section and asked if we could sit for this match and was told we were welcome to sit there. Your team made space for about 15 of my team members that came with me. I was very appreciative for this!
We were asked to clear the pits friday morning for opening ceremonies, to which i responded by pulling out a manual and having a civil discussion with the volunteer regarding the actual rules pertaining to said events.
In the "At the events" section of the manual
4.10.1 All Teams Should Attend
We encourage all team members to attend the ceremonies, on time, to show appreciation for the event and those people involved who are volunteering their time and efforts.
4.10.2 Pit Manners/Rules During the Ceremonies
- Team members will not be allowed to use power tools, hammers or other noisy tools during the ceremonies.
- All persons in the Pit should observe the code of behavior for the presentation of all national anthems:
o Maintain a respectful silence;
o Stand, facing the flag. If there is no flag, look toward the video screen showing a flag; and
o ALL hats off please.
The volunteer then took the manual back to his superior and returned to us informing us we would be allowed to stay as long as we followed the listed rules, which we did.
This same situation happened in Wisconsin only I wasn't as well versed on that section of the manual, lesson learned.
At no point does it say "empty the pits" or "only two people" or half the other things being told to teams, and this goes for every event.
I thoroughly thanked the volunteer for participating in a healthy discussion and taking to correct course of action, which is more than can be said for some other encounters we've had this season.
If my robot is operating 100%, I'll be at the ceremonies, if it is not then it has my attention until it is. This is how I believe it should stay as it is disrespectful to a team who has put in countless hours constructing it to not allow allotted(1) time to make sure it is working properly.
(1) The champs agenda says Pits open at 7:15am and close at 8pm, I count this as allotted pit time
This was more of a positive at champs, but is in response to a post here.
Thank you for the response, Aren. However, now I have to wonder why the opening ceremonies weren't broadcast in the pits. The reason that I was given was that it was because everyone was supposed to be in the dome, and if that is the reason, then that's an issue in itself.
-----
Sound during the concert: Just to throw another experience into the pool, I was on the floor and the only issue I experienced was the incredibly booming bass towards the end. As soon as my clothes and internal organs started shaking, I immediately felt bad for the older members of the audience, particularly the VIPs who were in the stands behind me. If I could barely stand the bass, how were they feeling? In regards to sound, I was able to clearly hear everything that was said. Some sections not being able to understand the words that were being spoken might have been a venue/acoustics issue, not an issue with the concert itself.
Rick TYler
02-05-2011, 22:32
My team was denied a place to sit twice by two different teams.
I don't believe I have ever tried to sit in the stands at an FRC event when I haven't had some parent or kid tell me I had to move -- stretching back to the 2005 Portland tournament when I nearly got into a shoving match with a parent who was trying to order my 12-year-old son to move. It is BY FAR the worst part of going to an FRC tournament, and I have no idea what to do about it. (Unless you happen to go to an old-school event where the music is so loud your ears bleed. That's worse. Fortunately, either my hearing has degraded or the music isn't played as loud as it used to be. :) )
I've only ever had this problem at one VRC/FVC/FTC event, and that was in Atlanta in 2008 when a home school group camped out in the first two rows and didn't move for two straight days -- making sure to leave coats, backpacks, and other stuff in unused seats to make sure no one else took "their" seats. Other than that, small robot crowds just aren't as obnoxious.
Kevin Sevcik
02-05-2011, 23:44
I've commented on Champs elsewhere, so more generally, I think inspection still needs some work. Specifically, I think things tend to get overlooked or given a pass in the name of getting robots on the field and letting teams play. Which is fine and all, but a bit irksome to teams that actually try to comply with the rules. I've since forgotten things I noticed at the regionals, but I recall a team in Curie running with black bumpers when they were a blue team. Black bumpers with red numbers.
Something's wrong with inspections if a team apparently gets passed out of a regional with illegal bumpers and without a note that they need fixing. And then gets passed through inspections at Championships with, presumably, the same illegal bumpers.
I know inspectors are busy and have a lot to do, but I still find it hard to believe a team was playing at Champs with such a blatantly illegal robot.
Comment on the electronics. I heard the words " lost coms " way to much. The whole FMS - robot communication system needs some revue. What caused the problems and how can they be improved for next year.
We had several Jag failures this year. So have other teams. Come on TI. Make these things reliable. My one comment on what may help - SMBJ30. Can has the allure of increased functionality. However, there seams to be a few land mines that teams step on when they try to go can buss. Can the can be made bullet proof for 2012? If the victors were more linear we would have used them.
First relaxed the pneumatic rules a little. That's great but safety must be maintained. We used the plastic air tanks. We needed big air storage. I question the ratings of these. Would they pass an ASME or testing lab testing? We may have been driving around with 2 fragmentation grenades. First made it clear that they want to limit the air volume to cylinders. The way they defined the limit makes it very tough for inspectors to know if a teams valves are legal. Maybe they should list manufactures valve series and manifolds that meet their standard. This would make it easy for the inspectors. If it's on the list it's OK.
Jim Wilks
03-05-2011, 08:55
the team in front of us sitting in the first two rows stood through about 1.5 matches blocking the view of the field entirely.
To be fair, my team did stand but only when we were announced.
We had some of this as well. The team in front of us insisted in standing for the duration of every match they were involved in. This level of inconsideration of others is what really irks me.
We've been at this for twenty years. Why are people still calling it "Nationals"?
Not only is it disrespectful to the non-US teams, it's demeaning to the competition itself. One of the speakers on Saturday mentioned how taken aback he was by the number of flags above the stage. Even Dean looked up with awe. What an amazing accomplishment for FIRST, and what an amazing accomplishment for all who travel to the Championship event, and what an incredible accomplishment for those who win!
It's not Nationals. It's Worlds. Or, even better, The CHAMPionship.
sdcantrell56
03-05-2011, 09:06
I've commented on Champs elsewhere, so more generally, I think inspection still needs some work. Specifically, I think things tend to get overlooked or given a pass in the name of getting robots on the field and letting teams play. Which is fine and all, but a bit irksome to teams that actually try to comply with the rules. I've since forgotten things I noticed at the regionals, but I recall a team in Curie running with black bumpers when they were a blue team. Black bumpers with red numbers.
Something's wrong with inspections if a team apparently gets passed out of a regional with illegal bumpers and without a note that they need fixing. And then gets passed through inspections at Championships with, presumably, the same illegal bumpers.
I know inspectors are busy and have a lot to do, but I still find it hard to believe a team was playing at Champs with such a blatantly illegal robot.
A team in Newton was using a van door motor to power their arm. It was quite prominently displayed as well. When this is happening I think it's time that the number of teams at the Championship event was pared down to be more competitive and cut out a lot of the filler. Maybe then FIRST wouldn't have to relegate to fields to the pits ( an entirely different issue). It is a bit frustrating seeing things like this getting passed and then our robot is run over with a fine tooth comb.
We had some of this as well. The team in front of us insisted in standing for the duration of every match they were involved in. This level of inconsideration of others is what really irks me.
Maybe a solution to saving seats could be something quite simple. If FIRST saved the first 4 or 5 rows across the bottom of the playing field and allowed teams to sit there during their matches, teams would always get front row seats for their own matches. Then, if the team wanted to stand (I like my team standing to cheer on their team, they cheer louder - and one could argue it is disrespectful to your team not to stand and cheer for them - it's a no-win either way I think), they could stand on the floor and bottom bleacher and there would still be space above them for the crowd to see over them. Teams wouldn't be in such a hurry to get into the stands because they would always be guaranteed a spot in the front to watch their team. Plus, if they put red on one side and blue on the other, you would always be near your alliance to cheer. Would certainly have helped in the pit fields and I think would help in all venues! When it boils down to it, everyone just wants to see and cheer for their team. People wouldn't be so possessive of stand space if they knew their team members working in the pit would have a spot to sit in when they came to cheer. Just a thought! :)
A team in Newton was using a van door motor to power their arm. It was quite prominently displayed as well. When this is happening I think it's time that the number of teams at the Championship event was pared down to be more competitive and cut out a lot of the filler. Maybe then FIRST wouldn't have to relegate to fields to the pits ( an entirely different issue). It is a bit frustrating seeing things like this getting passed and then our robot is run over with a fine tooth comb.
If you see something that is questionable (or clearly illegal) like this, please tell an Inspector, preferably the Lead Robot Inspector for your division. This is especially important if the issue might have safety implications.
I understand that it seems like "informing" but it's in everyone's interests to have a safe and fair competition.
Mike Rush
03-05-2011, 09:54
I've been going to FIRST competitions for 14 years. I've been to Nationals 11 times, twice as a spectator. These are my observations for year 1 in St Louis.
(1) Pit Organization and Signage - Woefully poor. I had a team list, a pit map, and was seeking out a number of specific teams to contact and I still could not find my way around easily. I can't even imagine what that must have been like for the uninitiated. Having the division pits split was just plain stupid.
I believe the ultimate reason for the poor organization was the inclusion (relocation in my opinion) of the playing fields from the dome to the pits. A monumentally bad idea. I don't care who the 'performing act' is. Work within the spirit of the competition or hit the proverbial bricks. This is not the venue for a bunch of singers making demands on the organization.
(2) Pit Numbering - Lesson lost. Pit numbering such that rookie teams are interspersed with the veteran teams really helps out young teams. As a young team at nationals for the first time, having a veteran team on both sides can be a great help. Clumping all the rookies teams at the far end of the pits really leaves them a little isolated and reduces the interactions with the more seasoned teams.
(3) Seating - Poor, especially at the fields not in the dome. (already beat to death)
(3) Front Doors - What was up with that? Half the doors were locked but once you made your way to the open doors and entered the building, you could walk (back in the direction you just came from) to those same doors. Utterly stupid.
(4) I heard from several (unnamed and very seasoned) mentors whose comments went something like this: "I think that FIRST has started to believe their own hyped press. Making space for the concert at the expense of the competition was a real blunder. If you want to really change the culture, why would you allow a bunch of 'popular culture figures' to dictate the terms of their appearance?"
In closing, the real lessons of St Louis year one had nothing to do with any competition related shortcomings. The real lesson will be the concert and how it impacted the event.
The 'Black Eyed Peas" concert displacing competition event activities will go down as one of two things; either a realization by FIRST that they screwed up by becoming wrapped up in popular culture or the beginning of the end of FIRST as a mechanism whose primary goal is to change the culture.
sdcantrell56
03-05-2011, 09:55
If you see something that is questionable (or clearly illegal) like this, please tell an Inspector, preferably the Lead Robot Inspector for your division. This is especially important if the issue might have safety implications.
I understand that it seems like "informing" but it's in everyone's interests to have a safe and fair competition.
Them using a van door motor was not unsafe and certainly did not give them a performance advantage ( they were pretty much uncompetitive). It just bothers me that at an event that is supposed to be the Championship even with theoretically the best teams there are still plenty of teams who cannot play the game or who come in with blatantly illegal motors. Perhaps FIRST should start considering making Champs more of an elite event, although I certainly won't hold my breathe for that to happen.
Along the same lines, consistent inspection would be a nice thing. I understand the desire of many inspectors to not keep teams from playing but it leads to some very questionable things allowed through. It doesn't help my confidence in the program either knowing that if you're not one of the better teams you can slide by.
BrendanB
03-05-2011, 11:30
(2) Pit Numbering - Lesson lost. Pit numbering such that rookie teams are interspersed with the veteran teams really helps out young teams. As a young team at nationals for the first time, having a veteran team on both sides can be a great help. Clumping all the rookies teams at the far end of the pits really leaves them a little isolated and reduces the interactions with the more seasoned teams.
Believe me this was a nightmare! Our team flew which meant what we could pack was limited or purchased when we arrived so there were some items that we didn't have. Whenever we did need something I just told them to start going outside our pit row to some smaller team numbers. Half of the teams in our row handed us a 1/8in rivet saying it would work with a 3/8in rivet. :o
Travis Hoffman
03-05-2011, 11:52
Believe me this was a nightmare! Our team flew which meant what we could pack was limited or purchased when we arrived so there were some items that we didn't have. Whenever we did need something I just told them to start going outside our pit row to some smaller team numbers. Half of the teams in our row handed us a 1/8in rivet saying it would work with a 3/8in rivet. :o
Truthfully, the vet-rookie-vet side by side arrangement can get confusing, especially in a large area where pits are split all over the place, such as the Championship.
How about the following arrangement, where you "weave" veteran and younger team rows together, instead of individual teams? The highest numbered rookie teams would still be across the aisle from the lowest-numbered veteran teams, and I think this might make it easier for individuals to find a specific team:
--Aisle 1-------Aisle2-------Aisle3--
V01----R15-V10----R06-V11----R05
V02----R14-V09----R07-V12----R04
V03----R13-V08----R08-V13----R03
V04----R12-V07----R09-V14----R02
V05----R11-V06----R10-V15----R01
Richard Wallace
03-05-2011, 11:57
That's similar to what was used at MSC this year, and at the St. Louis regional in several previous years. Works well for getting help to the newer teams, and makes it relatively easy for volunteers to find teams in the pits.
Jared Russell
03-05-2011, 12:01
Truthfully, the vet-rookie-vet side by side arrangement can get confusing, especially in a large area where pits are split all over the place, such as the Championship.
How about the following arrangement, where you "weave" veteran and younger team rows together, instead of individual teams? The highest numbered rookie teams would still be across the aisle from the lowest-numbered veteran teams, and I think this might make it easier for individuals to find a specific team:
--Aisle 1-------Aisle2-------Aisle3--
V01----R15-V10----R06-V11----R05
V02----R14-V09----R07-V12----R04
V03----R13-V08----R08-V13----R03
V04----R12-V07----R09-V14----R02
V05----R11-V06----R10-V15----R01
Either way would be an improvement. In Galileo alone, there were 5 (now 6) Hall of Fame teams ready to lend a helping hand on one side of the convention center, and the rookies in the very same division were several hundred yards away. Didn't make a lot of sense.
BrendanB
03-05-2011, 12:03
Truthfully, the vet-rookie-vet side by side arrangement can get confusing, especially in a large area where pits are split all over the place, such as the Championship.
How about the following arrangement, where you "weave" veteran and younger team rows together, instead of individual teams? The highest numbered rookie teams would still be across the aisle from the lowest-numbered veteran teams, and I think this might make it easier for individuals to find a specific team:
--Aisle 1-------Aisle2-------Aisle3--
V01----R15-V10----R06-V11----R05
V02----R14-V09----R07-V12----R04
V03----R13-V08----R08-V13----R03
V04----R12-V07----R09-V14----R02
V05----R11-V06----R10-V15----R01
While I do agree it can be confusing and some of the first years they did this it was very confusing at the regional level, this past year at GSR they did a phenomenal job at keeping the pits numerically sound and integrating the rookies with veteran teams.
Putting all of us rookies in one row just isn't a good idea. Too much BAD stuff happened this weekend.
Them using a van door motor was not unsafe and certainly did not give them a performance advantage ( they were pretty much uncompetitive). It just bothers me that at an event that is supposed to be the Championship even with theoretically the best teams there are still plenty of teams who cannot play the game or who come in with blatantly illegal motors. Perhaps FIRST should start considering making Champs more of an elite event, although I certainly won't hold my breathe for that to happen.
Along the same lines, consistent inspection would be a nice thing. I understand the desire of many inspectors to not keep teams from playing but it leads to some very questionable things allowed through. It doesn't help my confidence in the program either knowing that if you're not one of the better teams you can slide by.
I was using "fair" in a broader sense then offering a competitive advantage. It also includes working to the same set of rules and restrictions.
There were teams at Regionals who had installed Tetrix motors for high torque applications - clearly not a competitive advantage but still a problem which was identified by inspection and fixed.
If you see something on a robots which should not have passed inspection, please inform an inspectors or lead inspector. It may even have been a change installed after passing inspection.
Truthfully, the vet-rookie-vet side by side arrangement can get confusing, especially in a large area where pits are split all over the place, such as the Championship.
I think it was the Connecticut Regional this year where the pits were ordered across rows, rather than along rows. So each row had a distribution of veteran to rookie teams.
Using Travis' notation, it was arranged something like this:
-Aisle 1----Aisle2----Aisle3--
01----02-03----04-05----06
07----08-09----10-11----12
13----14-15----16-17----18
19----20-21----22-23----24
25----26-27----28-29----30
VCU used a similar set up where the lowest number teams were closest to the back walls in the rows. The rookie teams were out the outside of the rows near the walkway. It allowed the rookies to have high visibility to foot traffic, it seemed to aid them in getting timely assistance.
Hmm. The interweaving of the rookie and veteran teams is an interesting concept. I didn't realize how much help vets could be at championships, but not everyone has two regionals to work things out like we did (especially as well as we did). FIRST seems rather incredible in how much teams helping each other is a part of the culture - there's a reason there are awards just for that!
Otherwise... the layout of the entire competition was extremely confusing. It took me a large portion of Friday to figure out how to get to the stands in the dome from the pits (and then the upstairs way was closed, for no reason at all.) The entrances were odd, too - for some obscure reason we were always entering at the far side of the pits. Yes, the shop (got a cool shirt, plus a signed copy of The New Cool!), FLL/FTC, and all those booths (I got to fly an F-18 sim. Awesome) were cool, but that doesn't mean I want to walk a quarter of a mile or better every morning and every evening.
The seating in the pits, as others have mentioned, was just entirely insufficient, and I really don't understand why someone thought having only two of the fields in the dome would work. The switching off I guess made it more fair, but Curie was still stuck in the pits for their elimination rounds. For the elimination rounds! It doesn't help that it was making room for the concert, considering I don't even like them. One odd thing about the bleachers was that I was forever dropping things under them. Dozens of glasses must have been lost down there!
I know the logistics of an event like this are just amazingly complex, but this is the Championships! The organization at Oklahoma City was quite a bit better than this. I'm sure they'll work out the kinks, but still. (I liked the emcees and the announcer better there, too.)
Most of these were things I could live with quite easily, but it's a little disappointing coming to an event as big as this one and finding things inferior to smaller-scale events. I figure I'm just helping to make it better next time! (And hoping, so hoping that I'm there to see it. It'll be a lot harder to make it next year.)
Def going can-bus free, or fixing out the kinks. (at least warning about the risks of can-bus)
Letting robots pressurize before the match starts
Having a driver station inspection that looks at if wifi was disabled since it caused so many problems this year.
Having a driver station inspection that looks at if wifi was disabled since it caused so many problems this year.
I'm pretty sure the final driver station update shut down all network ports except the one used to communicate with the robot.
I'm pretty sure the final driver station update shut down all network ports except the one used to communicate with the robot.
That was network ports
Wifi needs to be disabled completely, just letting Ethernet run. That solved our problem.
I am not sure what the problem is with letting the robots pressurize before they took the field. We were a team that did that so that we could hold the uber-tube. The rules stated that it was fine as long as you used the battery that you would going to be using for the competition, which we did.
Alan Anderson
06-05-2011, 08:12
I am not sure what the problem is with letting the robots pressurize before they took the field. We were a team that did that so that we could hold the uber-tube. The rules stated that it was fine as long as you used the battery that you would going to be using for the competition, which we did.
Which rule(s) are you referring to? I don't remember reading anything in the 2011 game manual defining legal power sources for stored air pressure.
I do not have a rule book handy to look it up, but there was something about using the same battery, maybe it was in an update?
I do not have a rule book handy to look it up, but there was something about using the same battery, maybe it was in an update?
Nope, it was in CD discussion. AKA, highly unofficial.
Actually, it was a discussion with a basis:
<R01> Energy used by FRC ROBOTS, (i.e., stored at the start of a MATCH), shall come only from the following sources:
A. Electrical energy derived from the onboard 12V battery (see Rule <R34> for specifications and further details).
B. Compressed air stored in the pneumatic system, stored at a maximum pressure of 120 PSI.
C. A change in the altitude of the ROBOT center of gravity.
D. Storage achieved by deformation of ROBOT parts.
Combine <R01-A> and <R01-B> and you can draw the conclusions that some drew in that discussion. <R48> states that the compressor must be powered through the PDB and controlled by the cRIO if it's an onboard compressor, which added to it.
None of them stipulated "pre-match", "always", or "during a match".
pathew100
06-05-2011, 13:34
Actually, it was a discussion with a basis:
Combine <R01-A> and <R01-B> and you can draw the conclusions that some drew in that discussion. <R48> states that the compressor must be powered through the PDB and controlled by the cRIO if it's an onboard compressor, which added to it.
None of them stipulated "pre-match", "always", or "during a match".
Off-board compressors also have to be controlled by the cRIO (Using a spike to turn on/off the power and using the pressure switch wired back to the side car).
If using off-board, the spike and pressure switch can be On-board or Off-board but have to be connected to the sidecar and the cRIO has to control them when you want to pressurize. (Think safety).
Yes, I know it's possible to wire the switch to a relay and have that turn off the compressor power. And that may actually be safer than using software to do it. But the way the electrical rules are written this year and prior years this is illegal.
Teams for years have used different batteries when "Charging" and then swapped to a fresh one in the queue line. Unless you "lawyer" the rules (for some reason) there is nothing against doing this.
When I said pressurizing before the match I meant, when your robot is physically on the field. We did pressurize before each match by tethering. But we had a leak somewhere, so by the time the match started we weren't pressurized.
Tyler Olds
07-05-2011, 23:24
I've commented on Champs elsewhere, so more generally, I think inspection still needs some work. Specifically, I think things tend to get overlooked or given a pass in the name of getting robots on the field and letting teams play. Which is fine and all, but a bit irksome to teams that actually try to comply with the rules. I've since forgotten things I noticed at the regionals, but I recall a team in Curie running with black bumpers when they were a blue team. Black bumpers with red numbers.
Something's wrong with inspections if a team apparently gets passed out of a regional with illegal bumpers and without a note that they need fixing. And then gets passed through inspections at Championships with, presumably, the same illegal bumpers.
I know inspectors are busy and have a lot to do, but I still find it hard to believe a team was playing at Champs with such a blatantly illegal robot.
I actually asked a FTA and head Referee on one of the fields I was MC'ing on about why teams were allowed to play with illegal bumpers (pointing one out that had a loose cover that was dragging on the floor pre-match), and they simply replied that so many teams had this issue that the inspectors were just letting it go because it did not change the outcome of the game.
Carolyn_Grace
08-05-2011, 08:53
I came in with several of our JFLL team and their parents to watch our first match on the pit field and was disheartened to find no seats available. My team was scattered all over just to sit. I saw a big opening in the bees section and asked if we could sit for this match and was told we were welcome to sit there. Your team made space for about 15 of my team members that came with me. I was very appreciative for this!
Thanks Debbie! I'm glad to hear it, because this is how our team is supposed to act in the stands. I didn't hear of anyone complaining because we didn't allow them to sit in our section. Our section is always available for anyone to sit in with us, as long as you don't mind a bunch of crazy bees cheering and yelling at the top of their lungs! :)
I actually asked a FTA and head Referee on one of the fields I was MC'ing on about why teams were allowed to play with illegal bumpers (pointing one out that had a loose cover that was dragging on the floor pre-match), and they simply replied that so many teams had this issue that the inspectors were just letting it go because it did not change the outcome of the game.
One of Al's Inspection Thread post said that inspectors would specifically be looking for saggy bumper covers. I know I would have teams put on their bumper covers to make sure they did not sag. So that was not the policy with all the inspectors.
Thanks Debbie! I'm glad to hear it, because this is how our team is supposed to act in the stands. I didn't hear of anyone complaining because we didn't allow them to sit in our section. Our section is always available for anyone to sit in with us, as long as you don't mind a bunch of crazy bees cheering and yelling at the top of their lungs! :)
Ironically, I received a PM that we were removed from another teams picklist for not sharing seats in the pits.
I've commented on Champs elsewhere, so more generally, I think inspection still needs some work. Specifically, I think things tend to get overlooked or given a pass in the name of getting robots on the field and letting teams play. Which is fine and all, but a bit irksome to teams that actually try to comply with the rules. I've since forgotten things I noticed at the regionals, but I recall a team in Curie running with black bumpers when they were a blue team. Black bumpers with red numbers.
Something's wrong with inspections if a team apparently gets passed out of a regional with illegal bumpers and without a note that they need fixing. And then gets passed through inspections at Championships with, presumably, the same illegal bumpers.
I know inspectors are busy and have a lot to do, but I still find it hard to believe a team was playing at Champs with such a blatantly illegal robot.
It's not all the inspectors. And it's not all NOT the inspectors. :) But as long as you say "...inspection still needs some work." instead of "inspectors need work" then I'm 100% with you. I was an inspector at Curie, but I sure didn't pass those bumpers.
Unfortunately, we're human & don't do everything exactly the same way. And there are a lot of teams to inspect & not that many qualified volunteers that can be inspectors. There were fewer teams/inspector at CMP this year than at any tournament I've ever inspected, but that doesn't mean it was easy.
You've hit on one of my sore points. If a team can't follow one of the most easy-to-follow sections of the robot rules (except for the darn "what does *contrasting color* mean?" question) then one has to wonder what other rules they're not following. I've actually been part of making teams re-do their bumper numbers to comply with the rules, so I know that inspectors do look at the bumpers, at least part of the time. And I *always* have the team put on their covers.
There's another thing to consider -- where are the game penalties for NOT following those rules? Refs could be penalizing teams for dragging bumper covers, but they don't. I'm not blaming the refs for this problem, mind you, but just pointing out that there's more involved than inspections here.
<R85> clearly says that robots have to follow all rules before passing inspection. Yet we consistently see robots not meet that requirement. I've given teams their sticker with corners of their covers needing to be tacked up, with the warning "I'm passing you, but you have to tack those up, and the ref should be penalizing you if you don't." There's not enough time; while it's not fair to everyone for passing them for even such a minor infraction, it's even *less* fair to have some other team not be able to get to their first match because we didn't get them inspected at all due to spending too much time with other teams.
There are so many problems with my last paragraph that I'm not even going to try & clarify it. I *know* that we shouldn't pass teams, but I also *know* that there's more to it than just "follow these rules, exactly". If nothing else, I've learned that from inspecting. And while I'm still *really, really, really* ticked every time I see a robot with blue bumpers with black magic marker letters, I'm a bit more tolerant of some of those other things.
Kevin Sevcik
09-05-2011, 15:55
When I said pressurizing before the match I meant, when your robot is physically on the field. We did pressurize before each match by tethering. But we had a leak somewhere, so by the time the match started we weren't pressurized.*polite cough* Not to put too fine a point on it, but ALL teams have this constraint to deal with, and it's directly tied to the safety measures in the control system. Robots start and stay in Disabled mode until the match begins. In Disabled, no power is allowed to any any motors, compressors, servos, etc. That's entirely by design to make sure things are as safe as possible until the match officially begins and everyone's cleared off the field.
Allowing any motor to run during disabled would compromise this, as there's no telling a team has correctly hooked things up so that it's a compressor on that special output and not, say, a CIM on the drivetrain. Thus, motors will always be off at the start of a match, and robots will never be allowed to pressurize while sitting on the field waiting for the match to begin.
So, my blunt advice to you is to suck it up and find the leak so you don't have to worry about it. Think of it as a personal challenge. One that you haven't succeeded at until you can leave the robot powered off overnight and come back the next morning/evening with air still in the tanks. It's totally possible. I know because my team forgot to dump air when we packed up after Lonestar (Week 3) and we still had air in the tanks at the Championship. So if we can hold pressure for 6-ish weeks, I think you can manage to hold pressure for 6-ish minutes.
To help you along in your pneumatic adventures, I highly recommend one of the "Flexible Hose and Tube Cutters" from McMaster-Carr, Page 2324 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/2324). We swear by item 8288A51, but the safety cutter would probably work too. The main point is to get your tube ends as smooth, flat, and square as possible. Poorly cut ends don't insert well and are a big cause of leaks, right after threads missing teflon tape.
Daniel_LaFleur
09-05-2011, 16:55
<Snip>
To help you along in your pneumatic adventures, I highly recommend one of the "Flexible Hose and Tube Cutters" from McMaster-Carr, Page 2324 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/2324). We swear by item 8288A51, but the safety cutter would probably work too. The main point is to get your tube ends as smooth, flat, and square as possible. Poorly cut ends don't insert well and are a big cause of leaks, right after threads missing teflon tape.
Kevin is absolutely right here. in addition to the tubing cutter (BTW ... I suggest the mini-cutters) I'd suggest looking for the leak using water, a little hand-dish soap such as Dawn, and a small paint brush. Apply the 'bubble water' to each pneumatic fitting and watch for bubbles to form. Where you see bubbles forming (not just standing) is where your leaks are.
If the leak is too big for bubble-water, you can put the water on your hand and feel around each fitting (just stay away from live wires while doing this). The cooling effect of the leaking air on your hand will tell you where the leak is.
Kevin Sevcik
09-05-2011, 22:17
Kevin is absolutely right here. in addition to the tubing cutter (BTW ... I suggest the mini-cutters) I'd suggest looking for the leak using water, a little hand-dish soap such as Dawn, and a small paint brush. Apply the 'bubble water' to each pneumatic fitting and watch for bubbles to form. Where you see bubbles forming (not just standing) is where your leaks are.
If the leak is too big for bubble-water, you can put the water on your hand and feel around each fitting (just stay away from live wires while doing this). The cooling effect of the leaking air on your hand will tell you where the leak is.Actually, McMaster sells bubble forming leak detector as well. In spray form even. On Page 2218 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/2218). I have no idea what advantage it has over soapy water, but there ya go. And now that today's pneumatics lecture is over, we rejoin your regularly scheduled griping, already in progress.
Actually, McMaster sells bubble forming leak detector as well. In spray form even. On Page 2218 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/2218). I have no idea what advantage it has over soapy water, but there ya go. And now that today's pneumatics lecture is over, we rejoin your regularly scheduled griping, already in progress.
Well, I understand completely. Being the naïve student I am, I never even attempted to think of a solution. I just saw, "SO MUCH TUBING HOW DO?"
Honestly, we acquired the leak at competition. The leak was the least of our worries I guess. Seeing as we had can-bus problems for about 8 or so matches. It's my fault I just thought that having the compressors turn on would be a plus. Not griping, it's a suggestion from an unheard student. I have to have some way of showing my opinion don't I? The name of the title is "The Negative" so there would be some griping involved. (maybe I should stop talking)
But from a safety perspective, I most certainly agree.
Before putting our pneumatics on the bot, the entire system is put in water a bucket of water and pressurized. We then look for the bubbles rising to the top. Then we leave it in there for about 15 mins and come back. If it has lost more than 5 PSI. The leak has to be found and fixed. It is a lot easier to find them in a bucket of water before it goes on the bot then with soapy water later. There have been many years that we have been at competition and had to use soapy water around out jags :ahh:
Ironically, I received a PM that we were removed from another teams picklist for not sharing seats in the pits.
I think it was a bad situation to put everyone in at a time when we should be focusing on having a wonderful time. I am thankful we were only in there for 4 matches. I feel really bad for people that traveled across the country to support their teams only to not be able to watch their own matches or play-offs.
I was really sad that my team could not sit together to watch our 4 matches in the stands, but we actually had bigger issues one day in the dome with un-gp in stands. I also know of at least one instance where a parent from my team said something to someone coming to sit.
To eliminate you from picks based on that is their loss in my humble opinion. Sometimes our parents, with the best of intentions, do try to "protect our territory" and the whole seating issue seems to bring out the worst in people. I would hate for someone to penalize my team because a parent who was there solely to support their child was un-gp. Sometimes you have to look at the whole team and not let one individual influence your opinion of a team. Though since it always seems to happen, we do talk to our team A LOT about not being that one person that gives the whole team a bad name.
KB's.. I was SO surprised you were not first pick! You had an awesome bot and I wish we could have played WITH you this year instead of only against you at MSC! Maybe at MARC! :) We've sat beside you at many competitions and have never had issues with you sharing seats!
To everyone: surely with all of this brain power we can find a way to make watching and cheering for our teams easier, more fun and less of a problem. I sure like it when my team can STAND to cheer for our team. But, after the fact, we were told that it bothered people. So, at world's we didn't stand. And, the spirit went way down. There has to be a solution! :) We just have to create it!
JaneYoung
10-05-2011, 10:36
There has to be a solution! :) We just have to create it!
More seating. :)
At at regional, a team stood in front of me almost the entire time. The reason was because another team in a lower tier was standing, dancing, cheering almost the whole time and blocked the view of those first 4 or 5 rows in our tier. There were plenty of empty sections for the team to have selected if they wanted to stand but they wanted to stand there. I moved several times and took a couple of rookie mentors/parents on another team with me along for the moves - to try to stay out of the team's way and to be able to see the fields. It was annoying that the team didn't check to see if they were blocking anyone but it was worked out.
Teams can be very self-focused at competitions. That's what they do. Teams who are generous and aware of their surroundings are not as self-focused and determined to only do what they want to do. That's the nature of the beast. To find that compromise of having fun, celebrating, and being respectful is difficult. Krunch is a great team to watch as a role model for how to celebrate in the stands and do it well.
If more seating is made available next year in the pits area at the Championship event, that will help solve some of the problem.
Jane
To eliminate you from picks based on that is their loss in my humble opinion. Sometimes our parents, with the best of intentions, do try to "protect our territory" and the whole seating issue seems to bring out the worst in people. I would hate for someone to penalize my team because a parent who was there solely to support their child was un-gp. Sometimes you have to look at the whole team and not let one individual influence your opinion of a team. Though since it always seems to happen, we do talk to our team A LOT about not being that one person that gives the whole team a bad name.
!
This comment was mostly meant to showcase that at the same team, same time, same event can be responsible for 2 drastically different opinions and results. Without having video of the particulars involved, it is hard to tell what really happened. It could have been the people involved approached the same way, but contacted different persons with different reactions. It could be that the people involved contacted the same people with different approaches that resulted in the different reactions. It could be that team 1023 was a "michigan team" and team XXXX was not. It is hard to say. I do appreciate that the teams mentor brought it to our attention as something to work on in the future.
This example hopefully also serves as a reminder that everyone "on the team" serves as a reflection of the team. In most sports, it is easy to tell the players from the parents/fans, and to write off an over-ambitious parent/fan. In FRC, many of the "players" are mentors and students in the stands sitting side by side with parents/fans who often have the uniform of the players on. Is that adult a parent a mentor or a fan? It could be all three. It could also be a random person given a Team 33 t-shirt the day before...
Because of this, I would ask for some temperance when judging a "team" either good or bad based off of the behaviour of 1-2 individuals. We cover this topic with the students 2-3 times every year.
This will also likely require another point to review with parents during the parent meetings in the future.
More seating. :)
At at regional, a team stood in front of me almost the entire time. The reason was because another team in a lower tier was standing, dancing, cheering almost the whole time and blocked the view of those first 4 or 5 rows in our tier. There were plenty of empty sections for the team to have selected if they wanted to stand but they wanted to stand there. I moved several times and took a couple of rookie mentors/parents on another team with me along for the moves - to try to stay out of the team's way and to be able to see the fields. It was annoying that the team didn't check to see if they were blocking anyone but it was worked out.
Jane
Yeah.. I'm sure the same could be said about us.. we try to pick low seats with our kids on the bottom rows and parents up higher so the team can stand on the floor to cheer which leaves the bottom rows open and the upper rows able to see over us.. but i didn't take into account the vision we were blocking of the teams beside us until after the competition was over and someone said something. So I'm sorry to the teams we blocked at MSC, Detroit or Livonia. We did correct it for Worlds and will not stand next year unless something is figured out where you can stand to cheer for your team but not block others. :)
torihoelscher
10-05-2011, 14:39
I'm pretty sure the final driver station update shut down all network ports except the one used to communicate with the robot.
My team and I still disabled the wireless completely and turned off the firewall.
firewall+wireless=no communication with the C-RIO.
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