FIELDS. YES FIELDS.

[JohnFogarty]

Okay being a FRC member and knowing your feelings on these subjects I want to know.Why is there so much blame being put on FTC? Being at the Championship the last 2 years the FTC dome field setup has remained the same. It was not their fault at all about the pit fields. It was the concert that caused the move.

Now I took a cad program and remapped the dome and I could fit 3 fields in their easily but not a 4th. So they decided to move 2 into the pits to keep it fair in a sense. NOW I am perfectly aware that those seats in the pits were more than terribly inadequate. Which may be fixed in further years.

But these arguments that yell about the $5000 entrance fee that you guys pay. FTC pays $1000 as well. that's a good chunk esp since schools with those kind of programs have much less money most of the time. FTC was made to be the easily affordable J.V. program for FIRST.

[cziggy343]

So... From Bill's Blog:

Bill's Blog: Expect fields in pits at Championship next year. As the FIRST family of programs grows, we need to ensure all programs are represented at Championship. In order to give FTC and FLL fields equal prominence in the Dome, the decision was made this season to reduce the number of FRC fields in the dome. (Believe it or not, this decision was made long before will.i.am committed to hold the ‘half time’ show.) Rather than eliminate Einstein entirely or move one division into the pits and have those teams not compete in the dome, we went with having two fields in the pits and developed the plan to ensure all teams had time in the dome. We’re going to be reviewing pit/dome layout this summer and working to find ways to resolve some of the crowding and noise issues in the pits, but as our other programs grow, don’t expect FRC to have 5 fields in the dome next year.

Seems like it wasn't the concert... but I don't think that too many people are BLAMING FTC... I think they are just wondering why it is in the dome over the much larger (and more expensive) FRC.

[JohnFogarty]

yeah I know how expensive it is. But then who would want to part of a program the first shoves behind a door in the pits. At least ever division got a chance to be in the dome.

[akoscielski3]

FTC was made to be the easily affordable J.V. program for FIRST.

it was actually made to be a prototype for the future FRC seasons :P

[BrendanB]

I'm not blaming FTC. My issue is that if they were running short on space, wouldn't it make more logistical sense to move some (not all) FTC to the pits.

Think about it:

Less teams
Less stands
Less mass chaos

It seems like FIRST took the hard route and moved two FRC fields and if you were in the pit fields on saturday (I was a specator for Sat. elims on curie) it was ridiculous that this was championship and the walkways were packed!

Now 4 days later since we ended we are keeping with the idea.

I have NOTHING against FTC or the teams!

[BrendanB]

yeah I know how expensive it is. But then who would want to part of a program the first shoves behind a door in the pits. At least ever division got a chance to be in the dome.

I don't think people are saying move all of FTC to the pits. Maybe 1/3 or 1/2.... like they did to FRC! ;)

[Robby Unruh]

I have nada problems with the way FRC put the fields this year, the pit fields maybe lacked a little on seatings, but it's nothing you couldn't arrange yourself. People there are courteous, just ask. It got my friends and I a seat on Newton everytime we returned from getting a drink, snack, wandering the pits, etc.

[DonRotolo]

FIRST knows there wasn't enough seating in the pit fields.
I would be very surprised if they could not devise a solution to that problem.

[cziggy343]

FIRST knows there wasn't enough seating in the pit fields.
I would be very surprised if they could not devise a solution to that problem.

Personally, I preferred the pit fields... Under the stipulation that next year there was more seating... The 20 ft walk from pit to field was really nice! :)

[DSM33]

Nothing against FTC but going to Atlanta the past 2 years for me had more of a "World Championship" feel to me
With the matches in the pits I felt more like I was at a district event in Michigan. Like I said on another thread... Since FRC is a more spectator friendly sport I believe that the FRC fields should be the main showcase in the dome so the non FIRST-ers can see the "big robots"
FTC is also better for the crowd if the audience is closer to the fields because of the field size. (although im not opposed to the idea on placing FTC fields right next to FRC fields which I think would give FTC MORE exposure)

I don't think that anyone is hating on the FTC but I think there are good reasons to support the move of some of the FTC fields into the pits

[DonRotolo]

The 20 ft walk from pit to field was really nice! :)20 feet IS a bit far. Maybe they can cut that a bit too...:D

[Hawiian Cadder]

i had a novel idea, why not put the FTC stuff in the conference rooms that circle much of the stadium. pits as well as fields.

[Blackphantom91]

I think like Ive said in other threads It was seriously communication for me. Lack there of letting us know what was going on. I hear arguments on both sides FRC does spend significantly a lot more money to come than FTC does, but I do think FTC and FLL have been completely overshadowed by the FRC competition. I have to agree with first trying to give all events a even amount of "limelight" It just happened to come at FRCs expense this time.

Thinking about this in retrospect I think moving the fields to the pits wasn't a bad idea but FIRST not explaining in full was. I see this situation way if we shut out the other events like fll, ftc, frc what does that say to the people participating in it? I'm not mad at FTC at all im actually glad that they got the same experience that we have all have for a good some of years. Here's an incentive if you want to play in the dome make it to Einstein. Im 99.99% positive that next year will be better.

[Blackphantom91]

i had a novel idea, why not put the FTC stuff in the conference rooms that circle much of the stadium. pits as well as fields.

Where would teams sit to watch? Not bad thinking though.

[EricH]

Where would teams sit to watch? Not bad thinking though.
Nah, just move the fields into the theater in that case. Yes, there is a theater in the America's Center. There's seating in there, it's reasonably sized for some of the FTC/FLL action (2 fields for either one--you'd have a hard time putting an FRC field in there), and the seats are, well, theater seats. And I didn't see anything scheduled for that this time (OK, maybe there was a conference or something in there).

Then make sure that signage is pointing in there for whatever's in there. Lots and lots of signage.

[JohnFogarty]

Not that I'm completely opposed to these ideas but now you're making it seem like we should stuff them into a closet.

If there isn't a concert next year....uh has anyone thought we'll go back to the ATL. setup?

I have to ask now...uhm having been to champs for 3 years now....why was there sooooooo much empty space in front of Einstein.... you could park a few mac trucks in there. :o

[thefro526]

Not that I'm completely opposed to these ideas but now you're making it seem like we should stuff them into a closet.

If there isn't a concert next year....uh has anyone thought we'll go back to the ATL. setup?

I have to ask now...uhm having been to champs for 3 years now....why was there sooooooo much empty space in front of Einstein.... you could park a few mac trucks in there. :o

The Empty space was being used for FLL tables and awards seating for the finals on Einstein. Personally, I thought pushing Einstein back was a good idea, it gave everyone a better view and allowed for more people to sit in the stands since the award winners weren't taking up their usual section or two in the center.

[sgreco]

The problem I see with putting FTC in the stadium, is that it's waste of stands since nobody can tell what's going on from a distance anyway. FRC has the biggest crowds, and therefore should have the stadium. FTC crowds fit in the pits, FRC crowds don't. I think FRC should get all of the fields in the stadium.

[Taylor]

If moving two of the FRC fields to the pits was to drive traffic to the FTC/FLL areas, then why were the FRC fields at the farthest possible distance from the FTC/FLL?
If FRC is married to the idea of separating the FRC fields, then the pit fields should be close to the FLL/FTC areas. The sponsor/college tables could be given prominent locations along the long ingress/egress corridors of the Americas Center and Edward Jones Dome. The HoF pits could be made more prominent. There could be some much-needed tables and chairs added to the periphery of the pits, allowing people a safe, relaxing place to eat. And some trash cans!

[Racer26]

What about moving the HOF teams into the FRC Quiet Area that existed on the route to/from the dome? Would have given them more exposure than stuffing them off in a corner, and IIRC from Atlanta 2010, when HOF was out in that hallway, its not exactly a noisy exhibit.

[Carol]

In hopes of removing some of the emotions and prejudices in this thread, here are some facts and figures (numbers are rounded off - if someone can get exact numbers, go for it):

FRC: 2000 teams (up from 1800 last year). 352 teams attended Championships. Typically 15-40 students per team

FTC: 1700 teams (up from 1100 last year). 128 attended Championships. Typically 10 students per team.

FLL: 17,000 teams (up from 15,000 last year). 81 attended World Festival (their part of the Championships). Typically 10 students per team.

JrFLL: 2200 teams (up from 1400 last year). 29 attended World Festival. Typically 5 students per team.

You all know how FRC selects for championships.

FTC has a qualifier/regional championship system (in most areas) to get to the championships. FTC qualifies the captain of the winning alliance and the Inspire Award winner (similar to Chairman's award). Other slots are selected by a complicated lottery system based on awards.

FLL also has a qualifier/regional championship system. Only the winner of the top award, which is a combination of research and competition points, qualifies. But not all regionals winners go the the World Festival. It rotates, and the other regional winners go to some event at LEGOLand in CA.

JrFLL doesn't really compete, every team gets an award (as is appropriate for that age group). I'm not sure how the teams were selected for the Championship showcase but I suspect local teams were invited.

[KelliV]

Nah, just move the fields into the theater in that case.

The theater at America's Center is too small to hold an FTC field, it was made for business uses and has little space for much else, so sadly, that will not work.

However, it was a fantastic place to hold conferences and The Mothers of Invention Forum which I hope returns next year.

[JesseK]

I think that most of us who 'blame' FTC for the pit fields (and minibot crap, tbh) are more appalled that FIRST is willing to sacrifice some of the relationships they've built with mentors (who put in 1,000's hours over the years) on their flagship program in order to ... erm, do something with the big picture. That's the part we can't figure out, and that's the root of the frustration. In the meantime, while FIRST figures out what to tell us, we're stuck with ... major inconveniences ... during both build and competition season. If they'd been more transparent about the 2 pit fields from the start of the season, or long before BEP approached them, then perhaps we'd have had more time to digest it and say "please make sure we have X".

Yet with that said, <puts on flame-resistant suit>

Having been on both the FTC [FTC1885] and FRC [FRC1885] side of things at the Championships, I'm a proponent for keeping FTC in the dome. To make it to the Championships in FTC, as Carol has indicated, you literally have to be THE best. You can't simply tag along at your regionals, you have to SEED high and THEN beat everyone (or get Inspire). Our kids worked their tails off last year to get their bot in top-notch order to compete at the regionals they attended. They deserved to be in the dome 'under the lights' just like the other programs. Bill hints that they'll expand to more fields for FLL/FTC in the dome, which is a good thing holistically IMO.

The pit fields were good, except for the lack of seating. I only witnessed what the elims were like for the pit fields, and it was bad ... very bad ... for the teams and their parents/mentors/supporters. All we can do is hope that it was simply an oversight on FIRST's part, and that they fix the problem. I'm sure they understand they'll have major protests if they don't.

[Bharat Nain]

Without the BEP stage, we could fit 4 fields in the arena along with FTC and FLL. See attached photo.

I'm conflicted as to whether I like 2 fields in the pits or all of them in the arena. On one hand, the walk and time savings in the pit are great. However, it does lose some professionalism/prestige that the arena itself has.

[Racer26]

You can fit TEN FRC fields (50x80) on a little bit more space than a regulation NFL field.

What?

Yes. Guess what's a little bit bigger than a regulation NFL field? A football stadiums floor area!

I don't believe HQ's excuses for a second.

[Vermeulen]

I've never seen the dome, but from Atlanta in 2010, I remember there being huge areas in between the field curtains/curtained off storage. I also remember nobody sitting where the endzones were, and there being space there. I don't know if this was the same as St. Louis, though.

[PaW]

Georgia Dome gigapan picture here (http://gigapan.org/gigapans/21387/). There were some unused spaces...

[RMiller]

Without the BEP stage, we could fit 4 fields in the arena along with FTC and FLL. See attached photo.

I'm conflicted as to whether I like 2 fields in the pits or all of them in the arena. On one hand, the walk and time savings in the pit are great. However, it does lose some professionalism/prestige that the arena itself has.

The only worry I have with your proposal is the overhead equipment. I don't know that it can work at a diagonal like that as the existing overhead equipment that things are connected to may only be perpendicular/parallel to the field.

[Alan Anderson]

Without the BEP stage, we could fit 4 fields in the arena along with FTC and FLL. See attached photo.

Thank you.

You can fit TEN FRC fields (50x80) on a little bit more space than a regulation NFL field.

You can't do it while keeping them from interfering with each other sound-wise. But here's an idea -- assign each pair of fields to a division and alternate matches between them. You can get very high throughput by staging a match on one field while playing on the other.


Even if the whole north third of the stadium floor remains unavailable, there's still room for five FRC fields plus FTC and FLL. Keeping FTC front and center is easy. Just put it where FLL was this year, moving Einstein back a little more to make room, and FLL will fit fine in an adjacent corner. The presentation stage can go in the other corner. It won't have a great view of Einstein from there, but the VIP team seating doesn't have to be on the stage.

[Racer26]

Thank you.



You can't do it while keeping them from interfering with each other sound-wise. But here's an idea -- assign each pair of fields to a division and alternate matches between them. You can get very high throughput by staging a match on one field while playing on the other.



This is an interesting idea. Each division has 2 fields, with alternating matches. We know this seriously increases throughput (to 2x or better than that of a single field), so more matches could be played. Divisions could roughly double in size while retaining 4 divisions. You don't have the sound-pollution issues of having 8 divisions in such close proximity, and you could even run an expanded elim bracket on each division to keep the proportions right (run 16 alliances with a set of Eighth-Finals)

[Lil' Lavery]

Okay being a FRC member and knowing your feelings on these subjects I want to know.Why is there so much blame being put on FTC? Being at the Championship the last 2 years the FTC dome field setup has remained the same. It was not their fault at all about the pit fields. It was the concert that caused the move.

Nice assumption. Now give me actual evidence to support it before you go claiming it as fact.

[JohnFogarty]

Nice assumption. Now give me actual evidence to support it before you go claiming it as fact.

Try experience.

The Atlanta World Championship accommodated all 4 FRC divisions, FTC and FLL. The Edwards Jones dome is not that much smaller. The sizing is not the problem.

You try and tell me that if there was no concert they wouldn't have put everything in the dome.

[cziggy343]

Try experience.

The Atlanta World Championship accommodated all 4 FRC divisions, FTC and FLL. The Edwards Jones dome is not that much smaller. The sizing is not the problem.

You try and tell me that if there was no concert they wouldn't have put everything in the dome.

So... for THE SECOND TIME I will give you this quote from the Director of FIRST, Bill Miller's Blog:

Expect fields in pits at Championship next year. As the FIRST family of programs grows, we need to ensure all programs are represented at Championship. In order to give FTC and FLL fields equal prominence in the Dome, the decision was made this season to reduce the number of FRC fields in the dome. (Believe it or not, this decision was made long before will.i.am committed to hold the ‘half time’ show.) Rather than eliminate Einstein entirely or move one division into the pits and have those teams not compete in the dome, we went with having two fields in the pits and developed the plan to ensure all teams had time in the dome. We’re going to be reviewing pit/dome layout this summer and working to find ways to resolve some of the crowding and noise issues in the pits, but as our other programs grow, don’t expect FRC to have 5 fields in the dome next year.

[1986titans]

I think the bolded part of that quote is what a lot of the disagreement is over. It says "Believe it or not", and many are choosing the "not" because a couple of sentences in a couple of blog posts aren't seen as sufficient justification. To make such a large decision should require a much more thorough explanation than FIRST was simply trying to give FLL and FTC equal exposure.

[EricH]

It's the timing. That blog post came out after the concert had been announced. At the time, I think a lot of people figured that it was PR--AKA, trying to make it look better.

I'm not so sure that it is PR, but I think Bill's looking a bit farther forwards into the future right now than we're ready to go. I've got an idea that might help with fitting both FTC and FRC together that I'll pass on to him if I get the chance.

[BrendanB]

Without the BEP stage, we could fit 4 fields in the arena along with FTC and FLL. See attached photo.

I'm conflicted as to whether I like 2 fields in the pits or all of them in the arena. On one hand, the walk and time savings in the pit are great. However, it does lose some professionalism/prestige that the arena itself has.

But FIRST doesn't believe in using angles! :(

That picture is enough to make me cry!

[Cory]

You can fit TEN FRC fields (50x80) on a little bit more space than a regulation NFL field.

What?

Yes. Guess what's a little bit bigger than a regulation NFL field? A football stadiums floor area!

I don't believe HQ's excuses for a second.

Your dimensions are WAY too optimistic. You cannot get away with only 12' extra space on all sides of a FRC field. You're also accounting for those 50'x80' area units being one contiguous block of floorspace which accounts for more than the size of one football field (actually less. 40k sq ft vs 57k sq ft for a football field)

The only usable space is at the perimeter. The middle of the floor is worthless for things other than AV gear and the like. If you were to look at a ring around the outside that is perhaps 80-100 ft wide that's really the usable space you're looking at...and that amount of space is not nearly as large.

[Lil' Lavery]

Try experience.

The Atlanta World Championship accommodated all 4 FRC divisions, FTC and FLL. The Edwards Jones dome is not that much smaller. The sizing is not the problem.

You try and tell me that if there was no concert they wouldn't have put everything in the dome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrary_inference

[Phalanx]

Try experience.

The Atlanta World Championship accommodated all 4 FRC divisions, FTC and FLL. The Edwards Jones dome is not that much smaller. The sizing is not the problem.

You try and tell me that if there was no concert they wouldn't have put everything in the dome.

As far as I have been able to determine via public information the floor space in the Edward Jones Dome is actually larger than the Georgia Dome by about 2500 square feet.

*disclaimer - These numbers may not be completely accurate *
Edward Jones Dome - 104,800 sq. ft. floor with bleachers extended
Georgia Dome - total floor area of 102,149.51 square feet

So without the concert stage, I'm fairly sure they can fit all of it, FRC, FTC and FLL in the dome.

[Blackphantom91]

I have to ask even if first gave us a written out statement would that be enough? We know they are probably going to keep the fields this way from bills last blog or change it to something else but Ive almost made peace with this. I dont like it but we may just have to live with it almost.:( Although question what should they do for seating though?