paper: MARC 2011 Rule Changes

[GaryVoshol]

Thread created automatically to discuss a document in CD-Media.

MARC 2011 Rule Changes (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2563?) by GaryVoshol

[XaulZan11]

Looks good and I think should should really improve the game.

I have a question and a clarification. First, does the backup robot need to be played or just to win the event. For example, if you lose the first quaterfinal match, do you need to play the backup?

Secondly, the top seed gets 1st overall pick, 1st pick in the second round and first pick for backup? Sounds like an awfully huge advantage to the top seeds and a nearly impossible task for the lower seeds.

[Duke461]

Secondly, the top seed gets 1st overall pick, 1st pick in the second round and first pick for backup? Sounds like an awfully huge advantage to the top seeds and a nearly impossible task for the lower seeds.

I agree. I hate to be offensive, but that rule change makes no sense whatsoever.

On another note, i don't understand your "penalty-based" minibot scoring system. does this mean if Red's minibot gets first then Blue's team get 4 penalties and Red gets 18 points? or Blue just gets -18 points?

Confused,
Disappointed,
-duke
:o

[Steven Donow]

I agree. I hate to be offensive, but that makes no sense whatsoever.

On another note, i don't understand your "penalty-based" minibot scoring system. does this mean if Red's minibot gets first then Blue's team get 4 penalties and Red gets 18 points? or Blue just gets -18 points?

Confused,
Disappointed,
-duke
:o

From what I read of it, it looks like the penalties are just there because otherwise they would have to go into the FMS and modify the software itself-its just considered penalties as an easier way to alleviate the score, meaning that in order for them to not change the FMS software, they just consider the point differential as a penalty.

[Duke461]

From what I read of it, it looks like the penalties are just there because otherwise they would have to go into the FMS and modify the software itself-its just considered penalties as an easier way to alleviate the score, meaning that in order for them to not change the FMS software, they just consider the point differential as a penalty.

Ah. I was just finishing my editing of my post where i added that possibility into my question when i saw your post :D
Makes sense.

One more question, if for some reason the backup team you select completely breaks down before any of the matches, are you allowed to get another backup/not have to play your current backup? Also, is it one elimination match per round?
Thanks,
-duke

[GaryVoshol]

The backup bot will need to play at least once in the Elimination round. Yes, that means if you lose your first match, it must play in your second match to ensure that the backup bot has played. So choose wisely, don't pick a backup that isn't running. But at least you've got a choice; you aren't assigned a backup based only on the rankings.

The serpentine draft (1-8, 8-1) tends to balance the levels of the alliances. However in some tournaments, the 8th alliance gets a big advantage, because picking two nearly-top tier partners in a row is such a benefit.

IRI has had 1-8, 1-8 draft and pick your own backup for years. We decided to give it a try at MARC this year.

Assigning penalties is the mechanism for reducing the Minibot Race bonuses - we knew it would work without having to mess with the scoring software.

[XaulZan11]

The serpentine draft (1-8, 8-1) tends to balance the levels of the alliances. However in some tournaments, the 8th alliance gets a big advantage, because picking two nearly-top tier partners in a row is such a benefit.

IRI has had 1-8, 1-8 draft and pick your own backup for years. We decided to give it a try at MARC this year.

I understand the rationale of it, but given the depth at MARC I think the 1v8 match up will be 2 elite robots, 1 good robot vs 2 good robots and one that can barely score. Then, after 8 loses the first match, they need to play the 32nd best team at the event. IRI has the backup bot selection go 8-1 and doesn't force teams to play the backup. I guess you just have to do anything possible to avoid the 6-8 seed.

[Duke461]

I understand the rationale of it, but given the depth at MARC I think the 1v8 match up will be 2 elite robots, 1 good robot vs 2 good robots and one that can barely score. Then, after 8 loses the first match, they need to play the 32nd best team at the event. IRI has the backup bot selection go 8-1 and doesn't force teams to play the backup. I guess you just have to do anything possible to avoid the 6-8 seed.

exactly. Im ok with these rules; but, In a year where the 1 and 2 seeds completely dominated, we're going to give them a boost by letting them get an earlier 2nd pick? oh well. MARC will still be tons of fun nonetheless. Can't wait to go. :yikes:

[kenavt]

exactly. Im ok with these rules; but, In a year where the 1 and 2 seeds completely dominated, we're going to give them a boost by letting them get an earlier 2nd pick? oh well. MARC will still be tons of fun nonetheless. Can't wait to go. :yikes:

I disagree. In a year where at events, there was depth, the first and second seeds were in no way guaranteed a win or finals.

217, 469, 201 lost to 74, 3098, 548 (1-8) in quarterfinals at the Michigan State Championship.
1771, 1114, 294 lost to 469, 610, 188 (1-4) in semifinals in Galileo.
3539, 118, 303 lost to 155, 229, 1023 (2-7) in quarterfinals in Archimedes.
1241, 2056, 368 lost to 987, 968, 51 (1-5) in semifinals in Curie. 5 went on to Einstein.
1678, 2415, 1732 lost to 217, 1503, 25 (2-7) in quarterfinals on Newton. 7 went on to Einstein.

At a very deep event, the 1st and 2nd seeds are by no means a lock for finals. My examples are only a couple of these.

My personal views on serpentine is that, at a deep event with "straight" drafting, it will be fun to see some powerhouse alliances that face good competition. However, serpentine allows upsets to happen much easier - and that's very exciting!

[Bjenks548]

I like most of the changes just one clarifications though. What did the frog force feeder do at troy?
Also I don't like the new draft system, the 1vs8 match will be the best, second, and 17th best robot against the 15th,16th, and 24th. This might work at IRI, where there are probably 30 some amazing robots. While Marc is becoming very competitive this gives a huge advantage to the first seed. Especially when the back ups need to be played by the loosing alliance.

[P.J.]

At Troy, the Frog Force feeder (and I have seen other feeders do this, so not to just put the blame on him) threw a tube, misjudged the angle, and knocked off the triangle of the opposing alliances logo. In the old rules, this was a red card (I believe)

[jmiller48167]

What did the frog force feeder do at troy?

Actually their human player tossed the tube over the wall and it hit the minibot pole bounce back and scored on the bottom rack for the opposing alliance. Since this is a penalty and red card it is NOT what they planned to do. It was an unfortunate no brainer for the ref's.

The ref's don't like all the rules we just have to enforce them.

[nikeairmancurry]

I agree, at IRI, 1-8,1-8,8-1 works because the depth is amazing... I don't believe we have the same firepower as IRI... But I guess we will see what happens..

[Steve Ketron]

First off, there are several instances were the best robot/s are not the #1/2 seeds. A lot of this falls into the luck of match scheduling. Typically in these cases, the later draftees (2-8) turndown the invite to pick there own alliance. The MARC TEAMS might not have the glory of all those IRI teams but we always compete at the highest level. Now with the reduction of the minibot race points, more teams are evenly matched with the so-called elite teams.

But some information to support our cause:
41 of 48 teams from Michigan: 6 of top 10 teams
13 of top 20
18 of top 30
25 of top 40
Michigan District titles: 13
District Finalist: 15
MSC Champs: 3
MSC Finalist: 2
Regional Finalist: 1
World Divisional Title: 1
World Divisional Finalist: 1

Like I said, I believe this is going to be a very competitive event. Teams just have to do a little more scouting to compete.