Liberal Arts Colleges as viable institutions for Engineers

[davidthefat]

Now that I am fully well into my college research, I am debating on whether I should apply to liberal arts colleges. I have heard many great things about liberal arts colleges, but they do not seem to be the place for an engineer. Is it an ignorant choice to not apply to any liberal arts colleges at all? I know several colleges have a computer science program, but none of the institutions I am interested in are ABET accredited.

Most of the other schools I plan on applying to are institutes of technology and polytechnics. No state schools since most of them are over 20 thousand students per campus. I am only looking for schools with 7000 students or less. The biggest schools I am applying to are the Cal Polys, because of the low tuition for California students.

Do you guys have any general college admissions advice for me? I plan on going into research and eventually become a professor. Because "He who obtains has little. He who scatters has much." -Lao Tzu

To be specific, I plan on double majoring in Computer Science and Electrical engineering.

[Colin P]

Try to find a smaller technical school. I went to Michigan Tech because enrollment's right around 7k, there's lots of great programs and it's easy to get involved. In my opinion, smaller schools offer you a better chance to stand out or get into programs that have a lot of competition at bigger schools. I know that at MTU it's very easy to dual major in Electrical and Computer Engineering, they go hand in hand in just about everything. Should be about the same elsewhere...
Don't even bother with the liberal arts colleges based on your interests in majors.
Picking a school is very important. If you just graduated, it seems like something you should have taken care of by now. A lot of people I know moving on to college are starting dorm assignments already.
Technical schools = yes
Small schools = yes

Engineers make more than enough money to pay off their college loans in just a few years.

[davidthefat]

List of schools so far:
New Mexico Institute of Mining
Carnegie Mellon University
New York Institute of Technology
Polytechnic Institute of New York
New Jersey Institute of Technology
Kettering University
Illinois Institute of Technology
Cal Poly
California State Polytechnic
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Florida Institute of Technology
Stevens Institute of Technology
LeTourneau

All of them are small technical schools

[GaryVoshol]

There are some smaller schools and liberal arts schools that have ABET accreditation. For example, Hope College in Holland MI (full disclosure - my alma mater).

Beside looking for ABET, look at research opportunities. Many smaller schools have more opportunities, because they are not primarily focused on post-graduate research. Also look at internship and coop opportunities - having a proven work experience on your resume can definitely help with getting a job later. With a career goal as a professor, undergraduate research would probably be more beneficial.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

David,
If you are looking at IIT then why not check out Bradley? Both schools are great. IIT is an active FIRST participant and Bradley is near Caterpillar teams in Peoria. I believe they both have FIRST scholarships. IIT is just south of downtown Chicago in an urban setting. Bradley is a beautiful campus on the bluff in Peoria about two hours from Chicago. I graduated from Bradley and my son did also.

[IKE]

Most of the other schools I plan on applying to are institutes of technology and polytechnics. No state schools since most of them are over 20 thousand students per campus. I am only looking for schools with 7000 students or less. The biggest schools I am applying to are the Cal Polys, because of the low tuition for California students.
.

Any particular reason on the 7000 students or less?

Of your list, I have not had the opportunity to work with a lot of alumni from western schools, but I have consistently been impressed by Kettering students. This is likely because of the practical knowledge they bring to a job from their Co-Op background. I would also like to give high marks for Michigan Tech as to the quality of students they turn out. Though I have heard it takes a special kind of person to handle the winters way UP in the U.P.

Make sure you visit campuses and get a good feel for the schools. I have visited a a couple dozen Universities and they all have a unique feel, and a unique "quality" to them.

P.S. I went to Purdue, but it is too big for your criteria. Rose Hulman was near the top of my list when I was looking, but I am very glad I went to Purdue.

[davidthefat]

I'll look into Bradley, but I am not too taken on Hope College. My college list is bloated as it is, so I am more cautious in adding more colleges. I have reduced it from 22 colleges to 15. How is research in college? I know that most "research" for a highschooler is not so impressive. They are just lab rats that do the grunt work for the scientists. I would assume that it won't be just assisting a professor or a professional, but actually doing the research?

Mr. Ike:

Why I am choosing schools under 7000 is that, perhaps, I am afraid of change. But yet, I am applying to mostly out of state colleges. Ironic, I know. I just think that going to a smaller school would allow me to get to know my professors better. I plan on visiting after the acceptance letters come in. Also, choosing classes would be easier since there are less competition for the classes. I would also get to know my guidance counselor better.


I would also like to go to a school where the sciences and mathematics go deep. Why I want to go to college is to understand the language of God and then to speak it. Scientists pursue the understanding, but the engineer tries to harness it.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

David,
My son had several projects including his senior project with John Deere on automated welding. Pretty weird to wear a green hat in the morning and then a yellow hat to Cat in the afternoon. Bradley is a sleeper engineering school in that they have been around for more than one hundred years (1897) offer curriculums in several engineering disciplines and also have liberal arts. check out this...http://www.bradley.edu/academic/

[davidthefat]

David,
My son had several projects including his senior project with John Deere on automated welding. Pretty weird to wear a green hat in the morning and then a yellow hat to Cat in the afternoon. Bradley is a sleeper engineering school in that they have been around for more than one hundred years (1897) offer curriculums in several engineering disciplines and also have liberal arts. check out this...http://www.bradley.edu/academic/

I have sent in a request for more info. Looks like a promising school. My only issue is that West Peoria is not the best part of town. Can you vouch for that? I mean, it can't be as bad as some parts of Los Angeles.

edit: I also read Flint was not the best city either.

[vhcook]

I'll put in a plug for my alma mater, Missouri Science and Tech (http://mst.edu). There are about 5000 undergrads on campus (7000 total), and it's in a nice small town about 1.5 hours from Saint Louis down I-44. There is a lot of research on campus, and good EE and CS programs (as well as Comp E).

[Joe Ross]

Since you know that you want to get a PHD and do a lot of research, I think that should part of your method of finding colleges. A grad student searches for colleges by finding out what professors are doing research in the area they want to research, and then looking at the college that professor is at. You should do something similar.

For example, I looked at NYIT's website and they don't seem to have a lot in the way of research, especially in the area of computer architecture, which if I remember correctly is what you want to do. Here's what I found: http://www.nyit.edu/engineering/centers/. They also didn't make it easy to find out what other research their faculty is doing. On the other hand, UC Berkley, has a research link right on their home page, which includes a section on undergraduate research. They also have a much better list of research within engineering. http://coe.berkeley.edu/research-centers for example, you might be interested in Berkeley Initiative in Soft Computing, Berkeley Quantum Information & Computation Center, CHESS: Center for Hybrid and Embedded Software Systems, RAD Lab: Reliable Adaptive Distributed Systems and TRUST: Team for Research in Ubiquitous Secure Technology

I think your list of colleges is great for someone who is career minded, like I was. They may do a better job preparing you to be immediately usefull in an engineering career then a research university. However, for what you want to do, they may not be the right choice.

[davidthefat]

Since you know that you want to get a PHD and do a lot of research, I think that should part of your method of finding colleges. A grad student searches for colleges by finding out what professors are doing research in the area they want to research, and then looking at the college that professor is at. You should do something similar.

For example, I looked at NYIT's website and they don't seem to have a lot in the way of research, especially in the area of computer architecture, which if I remember correctly is what you want to do. Here's what I found: http://www.nyit.edu/engineering/centers/. They also didn't make it easy to find out what other research their faculty is doing. On the other hand, UC Berkley, has a research link right on their home page, which includes a section on undergraduate research. They also have a much better list of research within engineering. http://coe.berkeley.edu/research-centers for example, you might be interested in Berkeley Initiative in Soft Computing, Berkeley Quantum Information & Computation Center, CHESS: Center for Hybrid and Embedded Software Systems, RAD Lab: Reliable Adaptive Distributed Systems and TRUST: Team for Research in Ubiquitous Secure Technology

I think your list of colleges is great for someone who is career minded, like I was. They may do a better job preparing you to be immediately usefull in an engineering career then a research university. However, for what you want to do, they may not be the right choice.

You do make a great point. Thank you for pointing that out for me. Don't research universities tend to be huge? I was considering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, but I disregarded it because of its size. Perhaps, I should reconsider the school choices. UC Berkley and UCLA are also on the "reach" side. I do have a chance at UCLA, but Berkley seems more unreachable. Stanford, Caltech and MIT are almost definitely denials just based on my academics. Perhaps, I'll be more open minded on the school sizes, but I am still very hesitant. Argh, this is hard.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

David,
U of I is one of the most respected EE schools in the country. I think that the schools with the greatest research work will also be the largest.
The area around Bradley isn't great but it isn't ghetto either. On campus is typical on campus for most schools. And you can walk across it in a few minutes.

[EricH]

You know, just because a school is a state school does not mean it's huge.

South Dakota School of Mines and Technology (where I go) is a state school, and it's only got about 2500 students at a generous estimate. OTOH, it is in South Dakota...

As far as research, I don't know what the EEs and CSs are researching (ditto for the Computer Engineering majors), but the ME department is doing quite a bit in terms of manufacturing methods.

[davidthefat]

I have modified the list based on my research interests:

UC San Diego
UC Berkeley
UCLA
UC Santa Cruz
UC Davis
UC Irvine
UC Riverside
U of Illinois @Urbana Champaign
Texas Tech
Purdue University
Rochester Institute of Technology
Bradley University
Georgia Institute of Technology
Kettering University
Carnegie Mellon University
Polytechnic Institute of New York
Illinois Institute of Technology
Cal Poly Pomona
Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Rensselaer Polytechnic
Worcester Polytechnic
Florida Institute of Technology
Stevens Institute of Technology

Keep in mind the UCs all have one application.

[IKE]

I gave David a PM I would like to share:
I really really wanted to go to Rose Hulman in 1997. In 1996, tuition was $20K/year. Rose was willing to give me $2K of assistance. I come from a middle class family and in Indiana, that means you are screwed for financial aid. It is a really good school, but the year before I graduated, they bumped their tuition up to $28K. This meant that by the time I graduated, I would likely have over $75K in student loans.

Purdue on the other hand, was $10K for tuition and board. They offered me $1200 my freshmen year. I had saved up $11k going in. For my sophomore year, I made a good enough impression on the ME department that they set me up with $3K to $3.5K in scholarships the 3 years after that. That along with internships and some help from home, I made it out of Purdue debt free.
Since Purdue paid about $11k of the $40K, let's assume I was able to pay $29K. For Rose Hulman, this still would have left me with about $75K of student loans.
At $500/month this would take 150 months or 12.5 years not including interest. With a tiny 3% interest rate, it moves out to almost 16 years with a total outlay of $94K. At 5%, it is almost 20 years with a total outlay of $120K.
While $120K may not sound like a lot of money relative to a salary of $60-90K, it is important to remember that a lot of that $60-90K will already be spoken for. That $120K is basically like leases for nice new cars for the next 20 years.

While I agree that a quality education is nearly priceless, I would caution that the price of an education does not necessarily equate to the quality of an education.

The quality of your education depends mostly on you and your personal motivations, drive, aptitude, and social abilities to get along with other students and professors.

Now I would be remiss if I didn't mention that there are likely differences in opportunities. If you go to a very expensive school, you will typically be hanging out with a more affluent crowd. The affluent crowd often has better connections. Big universities though often have more connections and name recognition worldwide.

Last, but certainly not least, if you want to go clear through to get a PHD, it is good to talk to the Universities that you might want to do that work at to see if they have any "not grown here" policies. The ME department at Purdue often favored outside undergrads for ther Masters and PHD programs in order to provide a richer environment for the students in those programs.

[davidthefat]

Aha, it seems like opportunities open up when you just ask... There is a guy that got a internship/research job at Caltech by just asking some professors. It takes initiative. My excuse was: "I don't want to bother some professor, they have more important stuff than to take a highschooler under his wings". I never asked. Now I regret it.

I have just emailed 3 professors. Hopefully, one of them are willing to take me under their wings.