Best Team Never To Win at Championships? [Archive]

XaulZan11

01-07-2011, 15:51

Here are some stats of the teams already mentioned and a couple other candidates off the top of my head that seem to be in the discussion. Let me know if there are any mistakes.

2056: 11 regional wins, 1 division win in 5 years
33: 7 'regional' wins, 2 division finalist, 2 division wins in 16 years
233: 9 regional wins, 1 division finalist, 4 division wins in 13 years
968: 4 regional wins, 3 division wins in 10 years
16: 9 regional wins, 1 division finalist, 1 division win in 16 years.
1625: 5 regional wins, 1 division finalist, 1 division win in 7 years.
175: 9 regional wins, 3 division wins in 16 years

Given what they have done in 5 years, I have to give to to 2056. If they keep this up, they will have 33 regional wins and 3 division wins by the time they are as old as 33, 16 and 175, but I expect them to break through before that.

Duke461

01-07-2011, 16:49

Here are some stats of the teams already mentioned and a couple other candidates off the top of my head that seem to be in the discussion. Let me know if there are any mistakes.

2056: 11 regional wins, 1 division win in 5 years
33: 7 'regional' wins, 2 division finalist, 2 division wins in 16 years
233: 7 regional wins, 1 division finalist, 4 division wins in 13 years
968: 4 regional wins, 3 division wins in 10 years
16: 9 regional wins, 1 division finalist, 1 division win in 16 years.
1625: 5 regional wins, 1 division finalist, 1 division win in 7 years.
175: 9 regional wins, 3 division wins in 16 years

Given what they have done in 5 years, I have to give to to 2056. If they keep this up, they will have 33 regional wins and 3 division wins by the time they are as old as 33, 16 and 175, but I expect them to break through before that.

233 has at least 11 regional wins (TBA only goes back to 2003). They were also Champ. finalists
968 was also championship finalist.

XaulZan11

01-07-2011, 17:17

233 has at least 11 regional wins (TBA only goes back to 2003). They were also Champ. finalists
968 was also championship finalist.

I counted (https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=team_details&tpid=41685) 233's wins and got 9. Am I still missing 2?

I didn't count championship finalist for any team because its really only at most 2 more wins than a division winner.

Duke461

01-07-2011, 17:29

I counted (https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=team_details&tpid=41685) 233's wins and got 9. Am I still missing 2?

I didn't count championship finalist for any team because its really only at most 2 more wins than a division winner.

I feel like those would be the 2 most important wins of the year, though.
Ah, i figured out the problem. Somewhere i miscounted once, which puts my number at 10. Then, if you go here (http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/233/2005), you'll notice that 233 is listed on both alliances for the florida regional (and obviously i didnt notice it the first time). your link says they were finalists there so that makes its 9. sorry for the mess up.

Adam Freeman

01-07-2011, 18:16

As much as I love 2056 and all the success they have had in their short existence. Now that 254 is off the list, 233 takes the top spot as "Best Team Never to Win a Championship".

The build quality and ingenuity in their machines is jaw dropping! Many, many teams (us included) have won Championships with machines that can't hold a candle to the engineering marvel of 233s.

I would say that 2056 has to get shut out on Einstein a couple more times before they could steal the position away from Pink.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Karthik

01-07-2011, 18:33

A team who deserves a mention who isn't on this list is 47/51.

For those of you who weren't around in the late 90's, early 2000's, it's very difficult to understand just how good Team 47 was back then.

1996 - Champs Rookie All-Star
1997 - Champs Finalist
1998 - Three regional wins, then got double teamed by the opponents in a 1 v 1 v 1 elimination match, thus helping lead to the removal of the old 1 v 1 v 1 format
2000 - A robot which many FIRSTers consider the best of all time, only to experience a catastrophic broken weld on their arm during the elimination rounds.

During this time period "Chief" was on a completely different level than most of FIRST. I remember thinking that it was just a matter of time until they won a Championship. So their run of success as of late doesn't compare to teams like 233 and 2056, but for their past successes they need to be part of this discussion.

Here's a post I made back in 2003 about a very similar discussion to this one. Kind of ironic looking back at it.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=116911&postcount=20

araniaraniratul

01-07-2011, 18:37

How about 1717, they should be in the top ten (if not, then best team not to play on Einstein i mean seriously, they lost to world champions two times in a row 2008 and 2009)

EricH

01-07-2011, 19:45

A team who deserves a mention who isn't on this list is 47/51.

65/51 won once. I'll give you 47, though.

1717 is good, but when you haven't done better than a division finalist yet... In a year or two, they'll be solidly in there.

Adam Freeman

01-07-2011, 21:18

A team who deserves a mention who isn't on this list is 47/51.

For those of you who weren't around in the late 90's, early 2000's, it's very difficult to understand just how good Team 47 was back then.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=116911&postcount=20

This is why Karthik is the man! I guess I didn't realize that 47 hadn't won a Championship duirng their dominant time period.

I need to brush up on my pre-2005 history.

Given the performance of 51 in their first two seasons (Regional winner 2010, Regional and Division winner 2011) , I would say its just a short time before they get the 47 members of the team a championship.

Duke461

01-07-2011, 23:52

A team who deserves a mention who isn't on this list is 47/51.
2000 - A robot which many FIRSTers consider the best of all time, only to experience a catastrophic broken weld on their arm during the elimination rounds.

Karthik, or anyone else:
Do you have any pictures or videos of this robot? I have heard a lot about it but have never gotten to see any visuals.
Thanks,
-Duke

Nuttyman54

02-07-2011, 01:04

1998 - Three regional wins, then got double teamed by the opponents in a 1 v 1 v 1 elimination match, thus helping lead to the removal of the old 1 v 1 v 1 format

It's important to note here that in 1998 there were only 3 regionals, IIRC. That means that 47 won 3/4 of the possible events that year, and were shut out of their championship win because of the double teaming. That's domination.

I have to concur on 233 however. They've always been strong, but especially so in the last 5 years, winning divisions in 07, 08 and 10, and finalist in 2011. This comes in addition to 5 regional wins in that same time. They've been as close as 1 match from championship gold, and the repeated success in divisional play gives them the nod from me.

AlexD744

02-07-2011, 02:10

It's important to note here that in 1998 there were only 3 regionals, IIRC. That means that 47 won 3/4 of the possible events that year, and were shut out of their championship win because of the double teaming. That's domination.

I have to concur on 233 however. They've always been strong, but especially so in the last 5 years, winning divisions in 07, 08 and 10, and finalist in 2011. This comes in addition to 5 regional wins in that same time. They've been as close as 1 match from championship gold, and the repeated success in divisional play gives them the nod from me.

Not to mention division finalist in 05 and 06. I would say that Pink only has had one off year since 2005 (and probably much longer before this) and that was 09. Also, if you remember Pink was only 5 point from taking the Championship in 07. I would have to agree that Pink definitely deserves a championship soon.

BrendanB

02-07-2011, 11:31

Before this season it was definitely team 254 and now I will say that 233 is now long overdue just due to their long history of excellence and performance. It is true that 2056 has had 11 consecutive regional wins, but 233 has been playing at a consistently high level for a longer period of time.

Teams also in need of a win: 2056, 968, 33, and 16.

Karthik

02-07-2011, 12:41

Karthik, or anyone else:
Do you have any pictures or videos of this robot? I have heard a lot about it but have never gotten to see any visuals.
Thanks,
-Duke

Here's some:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/13088
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/13069
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/13156
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12952
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12953
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12954
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12951
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12950
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12949
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12948

Steve Kaneb

02-07-2011, 13:09

Here's some:

Andy Baker's also been good enough to provide video of one of the most amazing matches of all time (featuring 47): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FJFbvHRyco

It's remarkable how easily the robot picks up the balls, especially considering the drivers are across the field, with obstructions.

Chris is me

02-07-2011, 13:17

1625 deserves a nod. In the past 4 years, they have 3 regional wins, 3 regional finalists, a division win, and so many other stacked alliances that nearly upset strong opponents (Midwest 2008, Midwest 2010, Midwest 2011). They've been arguably as consistent or more consistent than "traditional" Midwest powerhouses like 111 and 71.

Duke461

02-07-2011, 23:14

Here's some:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/13088
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/13069
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/13156
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12952
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12953
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12954
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12951
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12950
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12949
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/12948

Wow. Are those really casters in the back with Crab Pods in the front? :ahh:
Very very cool robot. Thank you for the pictures.

Nick Lawrence

02-07-2011, 23:19

I'll have to nominate 2056, 233 and 968.

It's only a matter of time...

dodar

02-07-2011, 23:23

I'll have to nominate 2056, 233 and 968.

It's only a matter of time...

Watch next year that be the winning alliance lol

Billfred

02-07-2011, 23:45

Not to mention division finalist in 05 and 06. I would say that Pink only has had one off year since 2005 (and probably much longer before this) and that was 09. Also, if you remember Pink was only 5 point from taking the Championship in 07. I would have to agree that Pink definitely deserves a championship soon.

They weren't just five points away--they were inches from the title, since 179 got stopped just shy of scoring on 71's ramp.

In the modern era of FRC, 233 has been too good for too long to be anything less than The Best Team Not To Win It All. Take nothing away from 2056's impressive accomplishments, but by the time they made Einstein in 2010, Pink was over on the other side of the bracket with their fourth division champion trophy (and if you went a little further back in their trophy room, you'd see a pair of division finalist trophies in there too).

Lil' Lavery

03-07-2011, 03:05

sgreco

03-07-2011, 09:15

If it wasn't for penalties to their alliance partner, 233 (and 968) would have eliminated 1114 in the semi-finals on Einstein 2008. Pink is, without question, both the best team to not have a championship, and the most successful team to not have a championship.

If 233 and 968 won, then I think we could all agree that 1114 would be the best team without a title. If I recall correctly 233 and 968 won the first match (217 fell over during that match, so it wasn't very close). The second match was won by 1114's alliance, but only after penalties (G22 was a killer in 08). Then in the final match 968 missed a premature hurdle, and fired a ball out of bounds, and it seemed like without those minor mistakes they would have been able to win. I think those three matches make up the best round of matches in FIRST history.

233 and 968 have definitely been as strong as many past champions, and deserve a championship simply based on how close they've come. 2056 is younger so they haven't been waiting as long as teams like 233, but given the way they perform in regionals it is surprising they haven't won it all.

I think 1717 deserves mention. They haven't been waiting as long, but they have been divisions finalists a number of times. I think it's easy to forget how good they were in 08. They seeded second in Galileo (a field that included 1114, 217, 148, 330, 254, 103, 25, 40, 121). Then they lost to the eventual champions. Then in 2009 they lost in the division finals to the eventual champions again. It may not be quite as close as 233 and 968 have come, but they certainly came a lot closer than it may appear on first glance.

dodar

03-07-2011, 10:45

Does 25 have a WC?

Joe G.

03-07-2011, 11:11

Does 25 have a WC?

Yup, all the way back in 2000

sgreco

03-07-2011, 11:30

Here's a list of all the championship winners just to avoid any confusion...

2011
254
111
973

2010
67
294
177

2009
67
111
971

2008
1114
217
148

2007
177
987
190

2006
217
522
296

2005
67
330
503

2004
71
494
435

2003
111
469
65

2002
71
173
66

2001
71
294
125
365
279

2000
255
232
25

1999
176
1
48

1998
45
1997
71

1996
73

1995
100

1994
144

1993
148

1992
126

dodar

03-07-2011, 12:08

Ok that brings up another question, who deserves it more: 233 or 16?

Duke461

03-07-2011, 12:43

Ok that brings up another question, who deserves it more: 233 or 16?

There's been a multitude of posts previous to this that have backed up 233 a lot, so i would imagine the consensus is 233. 16 has been around longer, but i would give the edge to 233, because of their consistency. 16 was only an average team in 06 and 07, and has been one of the best, if not the best, in other years. But 233 has been fantastic throughout, maybe excluding their 2009 year.

Chris is me

03-07-2011, 13:19

16 has been consistently good since 2008, but 233 has been pretty much as good or better in each of those years, with more success in 2005-2007.

Karthik

03-07-2011, 13:47

If 233 and 968 won, then I think we could all agree that 1114 would be the best team without a title. If I recall correctly 233 and 968 won the first match (217 fell over during that match, so it wasn't very close). The second match was won by 1114's alliance, but only after penalties (G22 was a killer in 08). Then in the final match 968 missed a premature hurdle, and fired a ball out of bounds, and it seemed like without those minor mistakes they would have been able to win. I think those three matches make up the best round of matches in FIRST history.

In Einstein SF1-2, the un-penalized score was 122-114 for the 968/233/60 alliance. The 968/233/60 alliance took four penalties that match. Two of the penalties were for G22, backward line cross violations, while the other two were for hurdler interference. Each one of those hurdler interference penalties cost our alliance an 8 point hurdle. After it was all said and done, the final score of that match was 114-82 for the 1114/217/148 alliance.

That match was especially intense as we hadn't realized that the angle on our arm was off, and as a result we missed 5 hurdles and left a ball on the overpass in autonomous. (We missed more hurdles that match than we did all season long.) I'll never forget the feelings of fear I had as we missed each hurdle, and the audible gasps from the Georgia Dome crowd as they were stunned by what they were seeing. Watching that match is still a bit painful for me. Thankfully for our alliance, Team 217 played their best match of the season and were able to make up for our short comings.

Karthik

03-07-2011, 13:53

16 has been consistently good since 2008, but 233 has been pretty much as good or better in each of those years, with more success in 2005-2007.

I agree that overall 233 has been strong, but let's not forget how dominant 16 was from 1998 to 2000 (2 Regional Wins, 2 Finalists, with some of the best robots I've ever seen). Along with a very strong run from 2002-2004 (3 Regional Wins, 2 Finalists, all in an era prior to the dilution of regionals).

dodar

03-07-2011, 14:13

Well from my POV, the order of the top 3 most deserving teams that have not had their glory moment would be: 233, 16, 968/1625/2056. 968 because they have had consistently an amazing team and well conditioned robots, 1625 because they are one of the kindest and well-mannered teams in any situation they have been put in...oh yea, and they build some of the best robots each season, and do I really even need to list the reasons for 2056 lol 11-0 speaks for itself.

Lil' Lavery

03-07-2011, 14:28

I agree that overall 233 has been strong, but let's not forget how dominant 16 was from 1998 to 2000 (2 Regional Wins, 2 Finalists, with some of the best robots I've ever seen). Along with a very strong run from 2002-2004 (3 Regional Wins, 2 Finalists, all in an era prior to the dilution of regionals).

I'd like to playoff of Karthik's last point a bit. Regional wins meant a heck of a lot more in the late 90s and early 2000s than they do now. There were a lot fewer regionals back then, and until around 2002 or so you could guarantee at least a couple real powerhouse teams at each of them (or during the late 90s, several powerhouse teams). After around 2005, the increasing number of teams and regionals has led to a dilution. While nothing against teams that rack up regional victories today, winning multiple regionals just doesn't mean the same thing as it used to.

No offense to 1114, but I don't think even they would argue that any of their three win seasons (2006, 2008, 2010, 2011) meant as much as 47's three win season in 2000.

Chris is me

03-07-2011, 14:30

No offense to 1114, but I don't think even they would argue that any of their three win seasons (2006, 2008, 2010, 2011) meant as much as 47's three win season in 2000.

I'd probably argue the fact that they have FOUR three win seasons probably does, though.

Karthik

03-07-2011, 14:33

No offense to 1114, but I don't think even they would argue that any of their three win seasons (2006, 2008, 2010, 2011) meant as much as 47's three win season in 2000.

We absolutely wouldn't. What Team 47 did in 1998 was and will remain unparalleled. Not only did they win three regionals in an era prior to dilution, but they won them in the pre-alliance era. This means they had to overcome every team at the event, with no one to fall back on in case of a bad match. Absolutely insane.

Brandon Holley

05-07-2011, 08:47

I'll throw my nod towards 233. Absolutely beautiful machines year after year. I'll never forget their epic 22 tetra match from 05.

I also have to tip my cap to 16. I'm so glad to have seen the resurgence of the Bomb Squad over the past few seasons. In the early 2000s they were building the best robots in FIRST. Their cams from 2004 are still one of my favorite mechanisms.

-Brando

Peter Matteson

05-07-2011, 13:22

We absolutely wouldn't. What Team 47 did in 1998 was and will remain unparalleled. Not only did they win three regionals in an era prior to dilution, but they won them in the pre-alliance era. This means they had to overcome every team at the event, with no one to fall back on in case of a bad match. Absolutely insane.

Just to clarify how insane that 3 regional season was in order to beat what became team 177 that year in the New England regional it went to the 5th tie breaker!!! We were both capable of putting up the same ridiculous score. The winner was determined by who had the highest ball of their color in the goal.

JackN

05-07-2011, 14:29

There are so many teams that could be mentioned I figured I had to come up with some criteria to help with my argument. My opinion is that a team must have made Einstein at least two times to really be considered one of the best to have never won championship. This eliminated 16, 121/78, 2056 and 1625 from my list. That left me with the following teams: 233, 60, 175, 968, 1218, 33, 340 and 1126. From that list my pick was 233, followed closely by 33 and 1126.

The PINK team builds some of my favorite robots year after year and they are always there in the later rounds at championship. Their 2005 robot is easily one of my favorite robots of all time.

The Killer Bees are a team that I have had a ton of chances to interact with here in Michigan and were an easy pick for my personal favorite team to have never won championship (excluding mine of course). If there is a spot for team that I want to win to championship they are easily the pick there.

Finally, I think 1126 has been one of the most underrated teams in FIRST for several years. I don't know if it is their region or something else, but I don't think these guys get quite as much respect as they deserve.

I would like to give a special mention also to 60, who has probably the least luck when it comes to Einstein out of any team in FIRST. Their three trips to Einstein were 01, 02 and 08 where, unfortunately for them, three of the greatest robots ever awaited them. (Another weird thing that I find interesting is that the 08 Newton alliance had 968, 233, and 60, all three teams with cases for the Best Team to never win championships)

Lil' Lavery

05-07-2011, 17:34

So long as we're tossing out "other great teams to never win," I'll submit 64/39 into the pile. Between the two team numbers, they have at least seven regional victories (and two more regional finals appearances) and two trips to Einstein. 64's 2005 season is still the most awarded season in FRC history, as they took home 13 trophies, including being crowned Galileo champs and winning the Las Vegas regional.

AdamHeard

05-07-2011, 17:54

JB987

05-07-2011, 18:31

I miss the days of 60 and 64 dominating...

I don't ;) Always better to be with them than against them, that's for sure!

Duke461

05-07-2011, 20:18

I miss the days of 60 and 64 dominating...
60 did very well this year. Arizona Regional Finalists and Las Vegas Regional Champs. But yes, still nothing like back then.
So long as we're tossing out "other great teams to never win," I'll submit 64/39 into the pile. Between the two team numbers, they have at least seven regional victories (and two more regional finals appearances) and two trips to Einstein. 64's 2005 season is still the most awarded season in FRC history, as they took home 13 trophies, including being crowned Galileo champs and winning the Las Vegas regional.
A couple of questions regarding 64/39, some resolved after research, some not (still listed for anyone curious):
-Why is 64 no longer a team? Did they change to 39? Is 64 one of the original teams/When did they begin?
-Did 39 not compete this year? TBA does not list events for them in 2011
-What was 64's team name? (RESOLVED: Doesn't say on TBA, but found an old CD post that said they were the Gila Monster's (awesome name))
-What 13 trophies did 64 take home in 2005? (RESOLVED: From this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37000) and further research):
Arizona Regional:
Autodesk Visualization Award
Imagery Award
Motorola Award
Website Award

Colorado Regional:
Autodesk Visualization Award
General Motors Industrial Design Award
Regional Finalist Award

Las Vegas Regional:
Imagery Award
Motorola Quality Award
Safety Award
Regional Winner Award

Galileo Division:
Division Champions

Einstein Field:
Championship Finalists
-------------
Thank you,
-duke

EricH

05-07-2011, 20:37

Team 64: The Gila Monsters (If you see the Gila Dance, consider yourself lucky--it was discontinued after the 2005 season, along with the team.) Not one of the original teams.

After their 2005 Finalist appearance, team 64 split into teams 39 (39th Aero Squadron) and 1013 (Phoenix) by schools. (I want to say there was another team as well, but don't remember who.)

39 stopped competing as of the 2011 season; I'm not sure why.

There is a new Gila Monster team, though--the original sponsor relocated and started a rookie team, with no veterans on the team. I don't remember the number (and I don't know the relocation timing). They're sponsored by Team 64.

Rangel(kf7fdb)

05-07-2011, 21:51

Mark McLeod

05-07-2011, 22:08

64's 2005 season is still the most awarded season in FRC history, as they took home 13 trophies, including being crowned Galileo champs and winning the Las Vegas regional.
1114 matched that 13 trophy record in 2010, but no one's bested it to date.

waialua359

05-07-2011, 22:46

1114 matched that 13 trophy record in 2010, but no one's bested it to date.

I would assume the only way to get to the 13 trophy mark is doing successfully well at CMP OR do more than 3 regionals.
IIRC, team 555? did 4 regionals in 2008 or 2009?
Sorry, I have to check.

waialua359

05-07-2011, 22:48

I miss the days of 60 and 64 dominating...

I remember them vividly, losing to 60 in 2000, 2011 in a regional finals, and team 64 in 2005 at a regional final.
But, we did win with 60 in 2001 and 2002. :)

BrendanB

05-07-2011, 22:58

I would assume the only way to get to the 13 trophy mark is doing successfully well at CMP OR do more than 3 regionals.
IIRC, team 555? did 4 regionals in 2008 or 2009?
Sorry, I have to check.

2008. New Jersey, Connecticut, Bayou, and New York City before heading to Archimedes.

EricH

05-07-2011, 23:00

I would assume the only way to get to the 13 trophy mark is doing successfully well at CMP OR do more than 3 regionals.
IIRC, team 555? did 4 regionals in 2008 or 2009?
Sorry, I have to check.
Yep, 555 did 4 regionals in one year (I'd have to check the year). But nowhere near 13 trophies.

thefro526

06-07-2011, 09:10

Yep, 555 did 4 regionals in one year (I'd have to check the year). But nowhere near 13 trophies.

The year was 2008, and if I remember correctly, they made it to the Eliminations in all 4 Regional Events but only won one event, NYC. In Archimedes they were the #6 Draft pick.

Karthik

11-07-2011, 20:09

So I got bored and decided to pull up some stats. Thanks to Trevor Kearse from 2056 for helping me out with this.

Top 12 teams with the most regional wins, without a World Championship
T-1. 233 - 11
T-1. 2056 - 11
3. 175 - 10
4. 16 - 9
T-5. 47 - 8
T-5. 60 - 8
T-7. 33 - 7
T-7. 69 - 7
T-7. 121 - 7
T-7. 343 - 7
T-7. 359 - 7
T-7. 395 - 7

Top 9 teams with the most division wins, without a World Championship
1. 233 - 4
T-2. 60 - 3
T-2. 175 - 3
T-2. 968 - 3
T-3. 33 - 2
T-3. 121 - 2 (World Finalists in 1998, prior to divisions, counted as a division win for these purposes)
T-3. 340 - 2
T-3. 1126 - 2
T-3. 1218 - 2

Top 10 teams with the most regional + division wins, without a World Championship
1. 233 - 15 (11+4)
2. 175 - 13 (10+3)
3. 2056 - 12 (11+1)
4. 60 - 11 (8+3)
5. 16 - 10 (9+1)
T-6. 33 - 9 (7+2)
T-6. 121 - 9 (7+2)
T-6. 47 - 9 (8+1) (World Finalists in 1997, prior to divisions, counted as a division win for these purposes)
9. 343 - 8 (7+1)
10. 968 - 7 (4+3)

Lil' Lavery

11-07-2011, 20:48

Oh man, how did I forget 175? I knew there was another incredibly successful team that wasn't really being discussed, but couldn't think of them. Buzz definitely deserves credit.

If you include 51 along with 47, it becomes even more impressive. Though divisions vs. regionals creates a new wrinkle.

Chris is me

11-07-2011, 21:34

If you include 51 along with 47, it becomes even more impressive. Though divisions vs. regionals creates a new wrinkle.

However, 51 has won a Championship in 2003.

Lil' Lavery

11-07-2011, 22:52

However, 51 has won a Championship in 2003.

65 won a Championship in 2003. I'm drawing a distinction between 65 and 51, the same way I'm drawing a distinction between 47 and 51. Since 51 has not won a Championship, 47/51 can still be considered, IMO.

sgreco

12-07-2011, 08:21

So I got bored and decided to pull up some stats. Thanks to Trevor Kearse from 2056 for helping me out with this.

Top 12 teams with the most regional wins, without a World Championship
T-1. 233 - 11
T-1. 2056 - 11
3. 175 - 10
4. 16 - 9
T-5. 47 - 8
T-5. 60 - 8
T-7. 33 - 7
T-7. 69 - 7
T-7. 121 - 7
T-7. 343 - 7
T-7. 359 - 7
T-7. 395 - 7

69 is an interesting case. Though I wouldn't put them ahead of 233, 2056 etc...It's easy to forget how good they have been simply because they often opt not to go to championships. They are one of if not the best team from Massachusetts (maybe New England for that matter). They lost a significant amount of funding when Gillette was making budget cuts, but despite this misfortune (I believe it was in 2009), the quality of their robots has not suffered. I still think that had one of the top 5 robots in the country in 2007 (2 12" ramps, an effective gripper claw, consistent autonomous scoring). It's hard to consider them the best team never to win at championships since they rarely attend, but they may be the most underrated team in FIRST.

AdamHeard

18-07-2011, 16:47

Wow, no team founded during the 2004 season or later has won champs...

Here's a list of all the championship winners just to avoid any confusion...

2011
254
111
973

2010
67
294
177

2009
67
111
971

2008
1114
217
148

2007
177
987
190

2006
217
522
296

2005
67
330
503

2004
71
494
435

2003
111
469
65

2002
71
173
66

2001
71
294
125
365
279

2000
255
232
25

1999
176
1
48

1998
45
1997
71

1996
73

1995
100

1994
144

1993
148

1992
126

Lil' Lavery

18-07-2011, 16:58

2041 (2010) and 2016 (2011) are the only two teams founded after 2003 to reach the Einstein finals.
Also interesting is that the trend of the highest number to win a Championship grew every year from 2003-2008, but hasn't increased since 1114 won in 2008.

dodar

18-07-2011, 17:20

Didnt 2751 reach the finals in 2009 and 3357 would have been the first rookie team to reach Einstein Finals but lost out to the alliance with 2041.

Billfred

18-07-2011, 18:21

Didnt 2751 reach the finals in 2009 and 3357 would have been the first rookie team to reach Einstein Finals but lost out to the alliance with 2041.
2753 did make Einstein in their rookie year, but was eliminated in two matches (http://www2.usfirst.org/2009comp/events/CMP/matchresults.html) in the semifinals.

3357 and 3138 both made Einstein as rookies in 2010, but both fell in semifinals there too (http://www2.usfirst.org/2010comp/events/CMP/matchresults.html). (The latter did take it to three matches.)

Akash Rastogi

18-07-2011, 18:58

Please, let's not confuse 2753 for 2751 (who is also a great team).

dodar

18-07-2011, 19:43

Sorry Akash, I meant Team Overdrive. If I did mistype their team number I do apologize.

lemiant

18-07-2011, 22:15

I like that 1114 is the ONLY team with four digits to ever win championship.

Wow, no team founded during the 2004 season or later has won champs...
You could say that no team founded in the modern era has won champs. It could say something about the effects of 6 teams on the field (or far more likely, just the time required for a team to mature).

JesseK

18-07-2011, 22:40

Billfred

18-07-2011, 23:15

For instance, in the era post-coopertition it's been the best alliance that wins rather than the best team. While I don't mean to diminish the accomplishments of 233/2056, it's well known (at least in the Fantasy FIRST world) that 233 teamed up with 179 in Florida for several of their wins and 2056 teamed up with 1114 in several of their wins.

This is true--anyone who saw the Einstein finals over the past two years knows the importance of three strong robots.

That said, when you're on a level of 233 and 2056, when you're talking 20 trips to the medal round in the former's case, when you're talking 12 gold medals and the only in-season tournament loss being Einstein in the latter's, I think you set a standard that is beyond coincidence or dumb luck. (This goes double in Pink's case, as many of their wins have come on the road in far-flung locales including Pacific Northwest, New York City, Colorado, Boston, Hawaii, and Washington DC.)

Lil' Lavery

19-07-2011, 20:53

I'm not so sure that we can postulate that # of regional wins can constitute a 'best', though it does show a few interesting numbers.

For instance, in the era post-coopertition it's been the best alliance that wins rather than the best team. While I don't mean to diminish the accomplishments of 233/2056, it's well known (at least in the Fantasy FIRST world) that 233 teamed up with 179 in Florida for several of their wins and 2056 teamed up with 1114 in several of their wins.

I wonder if there's any merit in stipulating 'unique regional alliance pairings', where 2 members of a winning alliance have never allied before. Someone call Booz|Allen and tell them we need a consult...

233 and 179 paired up in 2005, 2009, and 2011. They won all three times (their FIRST info page seems to have them losing in the finals in 2005, when they in fact won).

Pink won Florida without 179 in 2008. All of their non Florida victories (Colorado, Boston, Washington DC, Hawaii, New York, PNW) came without 179.

By that same logic, 1114 shouldn't be as highly accredited because they they keep winning with either 2056 or 1503.

dodar

19-07-2011, 21:00

Pink and Swampthing made it to Einstein Finals in 2007 also.

Molten

20-07-2011, 09:39

By that same logic, 1114 shouldn't be as highly accredited because they they keep winning with either 2056 or 1503.

Everyone knows 1114 isn't all they are cracked up to be.:rolleyes: The numbers mean nothing.

Jason

Please note the sarcasm above. I wouldn't want 1114 to hold a grudge against any team I might be affiliated with. Afterall, they are one of the best teams out there.

JesseK

20-07-2011, 10:06

233 and 179 paired up in 2005, 2009, and 2011. They won all three times (their FIRST info page seems to have them losing in the finals in 2005, when they in fact won).

Pink won Florida without 179 in 2008. All of their non Florida victories (Colorado, Boston, Washington DC, Hawaii, New York, PNW) came without 179.

By that same logic, 1114 shouldn't be as highly accredited because they they keep winning with either 2056 or 1503.

Arguably, Pink only won Florida in 2009 because of 179/1649. Actually, I don't think even Pink would argue that point, it was simply an off year for them. Yes, Pink deserves more credit overall than was implied.

However, I was more trying to point out that a simple ranking based upon data points that aren't additively independent between alternatives is more "interesting" than it is conclusive. OPR addresses additive independence within a Regional. Yet it's unreliable when comparing robots between regional events, so I presume it's a stretch to try to normalize it year-to-year.

If anything, this thread is a great history lesson.

Lil' Lavery

20-07-2011, 14:21

Arguably, Pink only won Florida in 2009 because of 179/1649. Actually, I don't think even Pink would argue that point, it was simply an off year for them. Yes, Pink deserves more credit overall than was implied.

However, I was more trying to point out that a simple ranking based upon data points that aren't additively independent between alternatives is more "interesting" than it is conclusive. OPR addresses additive independence within a Regional. Yet it's unreliable when comparing robots between regional events, so I presume it's a stretch to try to normalize it year-to-year.

If anything, this thread is a great history lesson.

2009 was far from Pink's finest year. I don't think anyone would argue that. And Florida is usually their weakest event (as it's their first, and constant iteration, evolution, and improvement during the season is one of their hallmarks). That's really the only year you could argue that they were "carried" in the eliminations in Florida.

While I agree it's definitely possible that raw data to lead someone astray in this conversation. I think you picked a poor example, though. Pink passes any and all "eyeball checks" regarding this topic. They have a handful of the greatest FRC bots ever created, especially their machines from 2005 and 2007. Seeing MOE and Pink battle for the #1 seed then eventually the regional victory at the 2001 Philadelphia regional is one of my most poignant memories from that era of FIRST. They've had consistent success across many different regionals and at the Championship event.

Any metric you want to apply to Pink, they will pass with flying colors. Pun intended.