Windows 7 64bit Compatibility For ALL Tools ?? [Archive]

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de_

07-07-2011, 16:51

I realize there is a thread in 2010 but I would have sworn I had heard that certain 2011 utilities or tools or debuggers or something are not compatiable with 64 Windows 7. I have 64 bit Win 7 on a laptop (NOT the classmate) and am wondering if I should consider installing 32bit Win 7 before I install development environments.

- anyone confirm Windriver and all tools, works in 64b Win 7
- " Labview including camera etc ?
- " Java Netbeans ?

Alteratively anyone know for certain something does not work or know where any links is to documented problems or warnings ?

- Also, I would be interested to hear if there is any other benefit of using 64bit Win 7 over 32bit Win 7 other than support for memory above 3GB.

- anyone know if any development tool is using A LOT of memory in Win 7 ?
Is a 2 gb laptop well capable of hosting a typical development environment ?

Tom Line

07-07-2011, 17:16

The version of Labview teams used this past competition year functioned on Windows 7 64 bit home premium. The only word of warning is that you have to right-click and run the shortcut as an administrator or you'll get permission errors when it attempts to build the code in preparation for deployment. The camera and all of the associated Labview software worked just fine as well, as did the driver station and dashboard.

Phalanx

07-07-2011, 17:19

Mark McLeod

07-07-2011, 17:28

If you are planning on using Wind River tools...

The version of Wind River Workbench we expect will be in next season’s FRC Kit of Parts is not certified for use on 64-bit Windows operating system. Keep that in mind if you upgrade any team computers over the summer.

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/06/full-house.html

Ramiro_T

07-07-2011, 18:32

Would all depend on the software your using. Consider that 32-bit and 64-bit have a difference in processing types either than just graphics. If all the software is compatible to run off of 64-bit processing, then go for it. If not, then you'd be trying to look for a good experiment at the bottom of something that has no potential for it. And also consider the capabilities of the laptop. I know that those things have Intel Atom processors that do 64-bit processing, but also consider that it does take up more RAM power. For 64-bit, I always recommend 2GB for good performance because 1GB is going to fill up straight away and leave you with 25-30%resources for whatever you want to do. How do I know?: I'm a computer technician.

ratdude747

07-07-2011, 21:20

I can speak to the Labview and Camera components on Windows 7 64BIT.

We used Labview and all it's components with Windows 7 64BIT without issues.
The Camera, Driver Station, PSOC programmer, all ran without issues.

We did experience some minor inconveniences when moving the Labview Project to a 32 Bit system as some of the paths changed as well as needing to run Labview as an Admin in 32 bit VISTA to access these files. Stick to either a 32 bit or a 64 bit system and you won't have this issue.

My laptop has 4 GB of ram, and I didn't notice any significant performance improvements. 32 Bit apps on a 64bit system, can still only use 3GB.

hmm...

my team's head programmer got a new laptop during build season... it worked until he tried to connect to the robot (nobody knows why it failed, may not have been win 7's fault)

I have a new (to me) laptop myself and am considering upgrading from xp 32bit to 7 64 bit (yay $30 upgrades for college students). I'd like to have labview since i will be a part time programming mentor next year. sounds like it will work?

Mark McLeod

07-07-2011, 21:44

LabVIEW should be fine, since it's certified for 64-bit systems.

Even the Wind River tools might work, although it's not certified. It's just more of a gamble.

de_

07-07-2011, 22:18

Thanks for the input so far.
At this point in time I am only an hour into installing Win 7 64. I'm trying to avoid the scenario where I spend the hours fully installing the laptop with all my apps, tools, patches etc and then found out in a few weeks down the road something key to FIRST does not run in Win 7 64. Also its getting harder and harder to buy a new laptop with anything other than Win 7 64 so there will be a lot of people having the same question.

This year was our first year to use Java. So Netbeans is the critical install. But if Labview development (and even Windriver) can all co-exist on the same pc, that's my ultimate goal.

rrossbach

07-07-2011, 22:35

Netbeans and Java is fine on Win7 x64, we used it throughout the season. In early versions of wpilibj there was an issue where you had to manually update the ant script to successfully build the library under x64, but those were resolved in an update along the way.

You may need to install both the x86 and x64 versions of the JDK depending on the combination of tools you use with Netbeans. If you run into any problems feel free to PM me and I'll be glad to try to help.

- Ron
Team #2607 controls mentor

Ramiro_T

07-07-2011, 23:01

Like I said, its just a difference in processing type. If it was designed to run on 64-bit, then go for it!

Tristan Lall

08-07-2011, 00:03

If you are planning on using Wind River tools...So, why does Wind River keep dropping the ball on this one? What component of their software is so difficult to validate on 64-bit Windows? They've had six years (plus beta time) to figure this out—and even if we generously assume that they only started development when FRC moved to the cRIO-based system, you would think that they would have seen 64-bit operating systems as an inevitability.

Then again, for those who have used it on a 64-bit OS, my recollection is that there haven't been any issues. (The permissions issue mentioned above doesn't seem to be 64-bit-related. Incidentally, requiring software to run as an administrator is usually something of a blunder as well.)

Would all depend on the software your using. Consider that 32-bit and 64-bit have a difference in processing types either than just graphics. If all the software is compatible to run off of 64-bit processing, then go for it. If not, then you'd be trying to look for a good experiment at the bottom of something that has no potential for it. And also consider the capabilities of the laptop. I know that those things have Intel Atom processors that do 64-bit processing, but also consider that it does take up more RAM power. For 64-bit, I always recommend 2GB for good performance because 1GB is going to fill up straight away and leave you with 25-30%resources for whatever you want to do. How do I know?: I'm a computer technician.All 64-bit consumer versions of Windows from Windows XP x64 onward have native support for 32-bit code in a built-in subsystem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WoW64). The software doesn't need specific compatibility with 64-bit Windows to run. (The issue above is that Wind River hasn't yet declared it compatible—so it might work, but Wind River won't guarantee anything about that configuration.)

The hardware type won't matter, either, at least on any common PC. The 32-bit x86 instructions are natively supported on 64-bit processors like Atom and Core.

Also, I think you're confusing the fact that 64-bit systems can address more RAM than 32-bit ones with an actual need for significantly more RAM. (Yes, the addresses are longer, but that's about it!)

(For more detailed information on computer architecture, I think it might be worthwhile for you to check out the Tech Report (http://www.techreport.com) and Ars Technica (http://www.arstechnica.com); their articles are generally quite thorough, and would serve you well as a computer technician.)

de_

08-07-2011, 17:23

Hi Tristan

Well said re Windriver....

Many if not all of our FIRST specific tools (ie not including the commerically available compilers / IDEs) were written significantly before Win 7 64. Some of them I suspect had pretty low level stuff in it. Just trying to get some forewarning it all works in Win 7 64 (be it current versions have been upgraded for Win 7 64 or just they plain worked without mods). So far I am hearing all of FIRST stuff does work. If I don't hear anything else to contrary, I will stay with Win 7 64 and start installing IDEs in a couple of days.... Note Microsoft specifically says on their website that "MOST programs designed for the 32bit version of Windows will work on the 64bit version of windows". The keyword is MOST (not all).

Re the recommended amount of memory: Todays (32 bit) software is incredibly disk and memory resource intensive and has a habit of spawning tons of sub processes and we all have have multiple apps etc running in different windows. Just trying to get some hint whether 2gb for everything including Win 7 could possibly not be enough. It sounds like it is. But I will know for certain later this summer when start loading it up :)

Thanks you guys for reminding me that one 32 bit app even when running in Win 64 environment is still limited to its 32 bit memory constraints. However if it starts spawning sub processes (each with its own address space), the sum of the memory of all the processes could quite a bit more. I have a friend with 8gb on Wind 7 64 and though he is not running anything too exotic, he does have lots of windows open and actual memory usage is amazingly (embaressessly) high (lots of caching though).

jhersh

08-07-2011, 22:21

jhersh

08-07-2011, 22:25

As for the compatibility of WindRiver Workbench 3.0 with Win7 x64, I have seen problems with the Eclipse UI on some 64-bit machines that make it unusable. We believe it to be an issue with the old version of Java that is shipped with Workbench 3.0.

de_

08-07-2011, 23:28

Thanks Joe for clarifying what was going on.

re "Upgrading VxWorks on the cRIO is not a viable option because of the immense changes to VxWorks since 6.3."
Sounds like we are between a rock and hard place. I suspect MS will love to only have Win 7 64 shipped on new laptops. New laptop owners that are users of Windriver would have to uninstall Win 7 64 and install Win 7 32 or at least have a dual boot system.

Re Windriver, Eclipse: I am guessing Eclipse is written in Java ? It sounds like your message is I shouldn't really be counting on Windriver working on Win 7 64bit (and there would be no support). Though some users appear to have been lucky, others have not (which is a little hard to understand for a common Win 7 64bit host) ?

Tristan Lall

08-07-2011, 23:45

Given Joe's clarification, I withdraw my indictment of Wind River. (I assume that if I'd read the documentation thoroughly, they'd have explained somewhere that it wasn't their fault.)

Now I'm curious: which changes to VxWorks are incompatible with the cRIO-FRC? Did they stop supporting the PowerPC processor, or something like that?

jhersh

08-07-2011, 23:47

Basically it means we need to either find a new solution for the C++ environment or we need to require teams to come up with a 32-bit environment, albeit painful.

We aren't sure why some see problems and others don't. Not enough samples, I guess.

jhersh

08-07-2011, 23:50

Now I'm curious: which changes to VxWorks are incompatible with the cRIO-FRC? Did they stop supporting the PowerPC processor, or something like that?

For one thing, the networking stack was completely replaced. There have also been innumerable little changes that break compatibility in source, binary, behavior, etc. It is simply not an approachable amount of work.

rrossbach

09-07-2011, 15:09

Modern WindRiver tools do support 64-bit Win 7. The reason FRC is not able to take advantage of that is because the version of VxWorks running on the cRIO is too old to work in the latest version of WindRiver Workbench. WindRiver Workbench version is directly tied to the VxWorks version. Upgrading VxWorks on the cRIO is not a viable option because of the immense changes to VxWorks since 6.3.

According to WindRiver's product note (http://www.windriver.com/products/product-notes/PN_Workbench_0611.pdf), Workbench 3.3 supports Win7 x64 on the host side, and VxWorks 6.3 as a target. Is this already being checked into?

As a side note for anyone interested, there is a wealth of information in this guide (https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-13537) on developing c/c++ without having to use WindRiver - much of the information refers to using the gcc command-line toolchain, but that can be driven from other IDE's if you so choose. Of course, the main thing that is still lost without WindRiver is integrated debugging on the target.

- Ron
Team #2607 controls mentor

Mark McLeod

09-07-2011, 15:58

I think we're running Workbench 3.0.1
Eclipse is the 3.3.1 version

I can't confirm or lookup the appropriate product notes right now though, so I don't know if that is much of a difference or not.

rrossbach

09-07-2011, 17:31

I think we're running Workbench 3.0.1
Eclipse is the 3.3.1 version

I can't confirm or lookup the appropriate product notes right now though, so I don't know if that is much of a difference or not.

Right, I realize the Workbench version currently supplied in the KoP is "old" and isn't supported on Win7 x64 - I guess I should make my question clearer.

It seems like Joe was indicating that we couldn't use a modern Workbench version (i.e. later than WB 3.0) because the later versions didn't support VxWorks 6.3, and we're constrained to use VxWorks 6.3 on the cRIO.

However, per the WindRiver product note it seems that WB 3.3 does support VxWorks 6.3, and it is certified on Win7 x64. So, is anyone working on testing WB 3.3 and possibly getting it included in the KoP, as opposed to the out-of-date WB 3.0.1?

- Ron
Team #2607 controls mentor

Mark McLeod

09-07-2011, 23:21

Ah, I didn't understand you were asking for more details about why FRC made the decision not to upgrade to Wind River Workbench v3.3.

jhersh

11-07-2011, 13:22

We are exploring several options, but there is no solution yet.

kirtar

11-07-2011, 13:32

Ummmm I know for some software if it doesn't have a certified driver or w/e, Windows 7 and Windows Vista (x64 only) will complain and not let it run. Worst case scenario, if you're running professional or better on Windows 7, you could use XP mode