What Is Your Favorite Part Of FRC?

[davidthefat]

What Is Your Favorite Part Of FRC? There seems to be a conflict of interest among different people on the team. The conflict of interests is creating friction among team members and it hinders with progress as a team.

Also, if you vote other, please specify.

[rsisk]

I like the competition season because I travel to so many (5 last year) and get to meet a lot of cool people.

[Chris is me]

How could this thread possibly solve a real problem on a team? "Hey everyone, people on Chief Delphi like this part of FIRST, we need to focus on it!"

[davidthefat]

How could this thread possibly solve a real problem on a team? "Hey everyone, people on Chief Delphi like this part of FIRST, we need to focus on it!"

That is kind of what I was going for really. Seemed like a solid plan in my head.

[Chris is me]

I guess what I'm trying to say is why should your team care what we think is the best part of FRC?

[AdamHeard]

What offseason?

[davidthefat]

What offseason?

What ever you do during off season, including the IRI and other off season competitions. Or if your team does any development and out reach stuff.

[Akash Rastogi]

What Is Your Favorite Part Of FRC? There seems to be a conflict of interest among different people on the team. The conflict of interests is creating friction among team members and it hinders with progress as a team.

Also, if you vote other, please specify.

What exactly are the issues? Is it that the team doesn't see the value of the offseason? They don't think competition is important?

If you explain better, we could help out better.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I said "other", since I like ALL THE PARTS! :)

[bam-bam]

What ever you do during off season, including the IRI and other off season competitions. Or if your team does any development and out reach stuff.

#sarcasm

[EricH]

What ever you do during off season, including the IRI and other off season competitions. Or if your team does any development and out reach stuff.
Oh, you mean that less competitive and more developmental part of the season? That's what you call it?

In this case, being vague about the difference of opinion resulted in a distinct lack of clarity about anything except that there was a difference of opinion. A little bit more about what the difference of opinion is about would probably be helpful.



P.S. The term "conflict of interest" is usually used when someone in a position to make or influence a decision stands to gain extra benefit by making a decision in favor of a particular group. Say, for example, when a judge is on a case where they own stock in a corporation involved in the case--though usually the judge recuses himself from that case in that situation.

[davidthefat]

I guess I'll write it here:
Well, I am on a campaign within my team to start running the team more like a company. We are not so high budget, we start from scratch or in debt every year and it really worries me. The year before (break away) we almost could not even participate due to bad financial planning. There is a majority in the group that want to sacrifice a well performing robot in lieu of going to a second regional. Keep in mind, last year was the only year we went to a second regional due to private donations. It was great, but I am looking ahead and thinking of sustaining our team. However, those particularly in non technical groups, want to go to a second regional. I don't blame them. But that second regional burned through half our budget last year and we started this year $400 in debt. This really worries me. But good thing is that we got aggressive on sponsoring and fundraising this year.

You can infer a lot from this. This is my last year, I wish to leave a legacy that would allow the team to sustain for a couple years longer, but I am faced with a great opposition. Especially with all the technical members graduated, except for programmers, no one can make a robot on our team. They see doing research and development during the off season a waste of money. I see it as essential. R&D actually costs a fifth of what a second regional would be (Including lodging, food and ect) I would like to have the kids start out next year with a couple thousand dollars in the bank with a database of different drive trains and code to go along with it since I won't be able to mentor.

So the bottom line is I would like to design and develop drive systems during the off season. That would allow us to be more competitive during competition, allow us more time to debug the drive code (majority of time consisted of this), let the drivers practice, build a practice bot, leave behind a legacy of CAD and code for the next years and to train rookies in skills that go into building a robot.

[Akash Rastogi]

If I had to and I mean HAD TO, choose between a second regional or designing and prototyping before build season, I would choose prototyping. It would cost less to prototype systems you want to learn about than it would to attend a second regional, and the return on investment is potentially greater.

That is why my favorite part of FRC is the "offseason."

In the end, at least you know you need to fundraise more. The money you save from not attending a second regional can also be used to compete in offseason events (many more of them). So yeah, if given the option, I would focus on how to make my robot more competitive. Perhaps your team really needs to lay out a financial/sustainability plan for the future. You never want to be in the position that you win a regional or somehow qualify for championships, but can't afford to go because you spent up your money during the pre-season.

More money = more fun, but it doesn't always = better robot.

[BJC]

What Is Your Favorite Part Of FRC? There seems to be a conflict of interest among different people on the team. The conflict of interests is creating friction among team members and it hinders with progress as a team.

Also, if you vote other, please specify.

My favorite part is of the season is the first week of build season when you are not yet locked into a design and anything seems possible.

Also, I am hesitant to say this, but David, you often make side comments about your team in posts and it bothers me. I don't feel that that is respectful to your team and it doesn't do you any justice. While I am not in the habit of giving advice it is worth considering that while your team may be in the wrong, you are often an instigator on the CD forums and that attitude probably carries into your team. The first step to becoming a successful team is to act like a team. That means that you need to respect your teammates and their opinions. In turn, I think you will find that they will begin to respect and listen to yours.

As to offseason prototyping vs. extra comp. I would not prototype a drivetrain. I would instead use this http://www.simbotics.org/media/videos/2011/presentations/kitbot-presentation-kitbot-steroids I don't think you have the luxury of prototyping which requires multible members to WANT to. If you make them, nothing of value will be make or learned. It takes years to change the culture of a team, and bad habits are easy to fall into. There are lots of teams similar to yours who struggle year after year, but are content to struggle because "thats the way it is." My team has had experience with this. In 2009 we took a good look at ourselves and decided that we were not happy with always being "almost" as good as the good teams. Over the next two years we really underwent a kind of overhaul pushing for success. This year we were fortunate enough to captin alliances winning the MSC and the IRI competing against and with some of the teams I consider to be the best in the world. Your team is lucky to have you, someone who cares enough to stick their neck out to better their team. However, you will not be able to change your team by yourself, especially with only one year left. What you need to do is take the younger students under your wing. Be a leader who guides them. Teach them to love the program and to want to be better in it. One of the best things you can do is to introduce students to this website. If you can do that then you will be able to make a difference on your team. Once you have a team which WANTs to be better THEN you can start prototyping. While it is a long and difficult process to change culture, it has to begin somewhere, and might as well begin with you.

Best of Luck
Sincerely, Bryan

[ebarker]

David,

Here is a suggestion. It will take two hours to complete this task. The issues you are describing can be addressed by understanding this lecture. You mentioned the word "legacy". You mentioned "what is the favorite part..." that indicates a forming/storming conflict within your team, trying to bring people to your viewpoint. These and other issues are addressed in this video.

---

Last weekend Kell Robotics hosted the Georgia FIRST Mentor Advisory Council - Conference last week. The inaugural event of the MAC was a year ago, 1st meet of this year at Kell again. The conference last year had about 16 attendees. This year we had 32. I expect we will probably have 50+ next year.

This years topic is on leadership, group dynamics, team building. This year and last year's topics are generic, useful for any type of organization.

If you go to the 26:00 minute mark, I start a lecture on leadership, for about 35 minutes. The first 10 minutes of that is a little dry but it gets better around 36:00. There is an intermission, and then we go to group dynamics and team building at the 58:00 minute mark. The best part starts at 1:07:00.
http://www.youtube.com/kellrobotics#p/u/6/UriCZb7IzOI

I didn't have any real time to prepare for the briefing, I got 4 hours sleep, and I brought my notes to make sure I didn't forget anything, but it seemed to work out well, and the feedback from the audience was excellent. Some mentors drove 300 miles round trip in a single day to attend this conference. The goal of the 'MAC' is to create high performing, self sustainable teams. It is not a program specific low level technical thing that is best left to a workshop.


Last years presentation was on creating public value for programs like FIRST. Last year's presentations are on the right side of this screen: http://www.youtube.com/gafirst#p/c/AF1ABD379844337B

Creating public value is how you create community and sponsor support.
.

[Tommy F.]

I felt that the "Other" option was worthy of being a replacement "All of the Above" option.

[Chris is me]

If I had to and I mean HAD TO, choose between a second regional or designing and prototyping before build season, I would choose prototyping. It would cost less to prototype systems you want to learn about than it would to attend a second regional, and the return on investment is potentially greater.

I have to respectfully disagree. The second event is more or less essential to our program. You really need that quick turnaround iteration cycle to inspire kids with hard work.

[davidthefat]

Keep in mind, I do not have any real "power" bestowed upon me, but I do have a great deal of influence. I have watched ebarker's video, it is a great one and I think everyone should watch it. School starts in 3 days, so I better talk to my mentor. I do observe a great deal of things and I do analyze every aspect of a system. What I think the problem in our team is the lack of unity; we do not have a defined goal. Some kids are in it for the brownie points for college, some are in it for the fun, some want to just build robots, some are in it because they support FIRST's mission and others are in it for the competition. I need to unite the team under one goal.

[Akash Rastogi]

I have to respectfully disagree. The second event is more or less essential to our program. You really need that quick turnaround iteration cycle to inspire kids with hard work.

That's assuming you have money (if needed), time, and resources to implement those design iterations :p

Again, it boils down to a simple fact: if you need money, make sure your team "gets it!" If they don't get what your goals are for the team, they won't be on your side. I feel like you're fighting against your team on this and trying to choose one or the other, but make them understand that if they want to do a second competition, and still be able to do things in the offseason, that they need to help you reach your goal by fundraising and seeking more sponsors. Even, scratch that, Especially small donors.

[davidthefat]

I have to respectfully disagree. The second event is more or less essential to our program. You really need that quick turnaround iteration cycle to inspire kids with hard work.

The question really comes down to: is a 3 day competition with a $9 thousand price tag really worth it more than a 4 month long $2 thousand dollar research and development period?

We save $7 thousand by just going to one regional and developing drive systems. That can be saved until needed like the year after or if we qualify for championships. Keep in mind, that is about a third of our budget.

I noticed that the majority of kids that quit happens during the first week of build. We need to show them what we do and who we are. We can do that by teaching them during the off season. The opportunity cost for developing drive systems is bigger. I really see no argument against development. It let's kids practice and pick up skills, it shows sponsors activity and a bigger incentive to sponsor, hell, it even makes a team more versatile when kick off comes along. Designing and building a drive costs less than regional and we do not have to waste time designing and CADing a drive during build, we just design around the drive. We debug during off season to save time to debug the actual robot instead of the drive, we get to build a practice bot on top of the drive we made during off season. That means more practice. Which means a higher chance at winning. Then the CADs and Code can be transferred over to the next year. I see no downside except for some money being spent.

[Joe G.]

What I think the problem in our team is the lack of unity; we do not have a defined goal. Some kids are in it for the brownie points for college, some are in it for the fun, some want to just build robots, some are in it because they support FIRST's mission and others are in it for the competition. I need to unite the team under one goal.

While a general common purpose is good, remember that diversity is a virtue. As long as you can get them all to work hard, people with diverse reasons for doing FIRST will do diverse things within the team, leading to a stronger team overall. There's a fine line between working towards the same goal, and forcing conformity. Remember that you're in a program with a lot of turnover, which people enter for extremely diverse reasons.


As far as "what to focus on," the bottom line is that there's no substitute for hard work. Want more funding and flexibility? Send more letters, work more fundraisers, and sell more lightbulbs. Choose to do a second event? Endlessly iterate your robot to get the most out of it. Focusing on offseason prototypes? Get the most out of limited resources by using them creatively, and putting in the hours on inventor to try to get it right the first time. No matter what you work on, working on it intensely will lead to success.

[Chris is me]

The question really comes down to: is a 3 day competition with a $9 thousand price tag really worth it more than a 4 month long $2 thousand dollar research and development period?

In a word, yes. I know my opinion is not commonly held and it is only that, an opinion, but a second event has amazing return on investment relative to a one event season.

Shaker Robotics has made this decision every year. Second event on a $15,000 budget. Or less.

Money, to at least some extent, won't buy you a better robot, and it's more inspirational for a team to have more chances to prove themselves. I have never seen my team more dedicated and inspired than between events. Everything gets real then.

[Hawiian Cadder]

In a word, yes. I know my opinion is not commonly held and it is only that, an opinion, but a second event has amazing return on investment relative to a one event season.

Shaker Robotics has made this decision every year. Second event on a $15,000 budget. Or less.

Money, to at least some extent, won't buy you a better robot, and it's more inspirational for a team to have more chances to prove themselves. I have never seen my team more dedicated and inspired than between events. Everything gets real then.

I agree, but i think that you should attend one event every year that your team has absolutely no chance of wining. While many of my fellow students and I learned a few things from a few robots at our regional, we learned a hundred thing from every robot at CMP, so i would suggest making the second event something where the field of play is incredibly high.

[davidthefat]

I really do not know about you, but knowing that there is only one chance of proving yourself really puts a fire under your butt. Also, having that extra budget to just mess around and be creative is better on a team's morale than having a mediocre performance at a regional. I mean it lets everyone participate since the product you make really is not going to be pit against other robots, so there is a room for error that can be spared and learned from. A lot of people on the team did not get to participate as fully as they could because more competent people just had to do their jobs since the competition rode on their shoulders. Just letting the rookies build something on their own puts a smile on their face. I remember the first time I made a robot move, I was pretty darn happy and was hooked right there. While having fun at competition might be important, but having a bad performing robot can really rain on your parade. While that failure may motivate some to do better the next competition, there really is nothing much you can do to make your robot better between competitions. I see between seasons the best opportunity to make your robot better.

[GaryVoshol]

What I think the problem in our team is the lack of unity; we do not have a defined goal. Some kids are in it for the brownie points for college, some are in it for the fun, some want to just build robots, some are in it because they support FIRST's mission and others are in it for the competition. I need to unite the team under one goal.
Respectfully, why?

You have listed a number of motivations; don't confuse them with goals. Are any of those motivations invalid reasons for kids to get involved and hopefully get inspired? I don't think so.

Goals would be something like

building a robot that will lead to us being ...
getting involved in our community by ...
showing students career pathways in ...
ensuring team sustainability by ...
encouraging personal growth by ...


All noble goals - but they must be agreed upon by the team, not imposed. People will only work toward common goals when they are part of the goal-setting process.

[JaneYoung]

All noble goals - but they must be agreed upon by the team, not imposed. People will only work toward common goals when they are part of the goal-setting process.

Wisdom.

Too much I, I, I and me, me, me does not a team make.

Too much time spent on CD immersed in the I, I, I and me, me, me focus does not a team member make.

--
My favorite part of FRC is the opportunity to brainstorm and problem-solve with different groups of people in all the aspects of FRC.

Jane

[Ankit S.]

I also agree with going to two regionals.

With that second regional, you have a chance to see more robots, different robots, and different designs. Those different designs might be what fuel you to make a different drivetrain. If one team has an innovative drivetrain, but goes to a regional thats far from your home, than you may lose the chance of seeing that drivetrain.

Also, many teams do better in their second regional than their first. Going to a second regional may keep the motivation higher if you do very well in your second regional.

One thing you could do is have the students pay for travel expenses and food; that is what our team does for our "away" regional.

This way you wont need to spend 7000 on that second regional, only ~4000. Thats an extra 3000 dollars in the bag.

If you do manage to get at least 12-15k as your budget this year, you should be going to that second regional.

As for leaving behind a legacy of CAD and design and prototyping, start teaching the team how to CAD, and start fully designing before fabrication.

Good luck.

[thefro526]

My favorite part of FRC?

The people.

Those people make robots seem uninteresting.

[XaulZan11]

One issue that I don't believe has been brought up in the 2nd regional or offseason prototyping discussion is that it can be very hard to get students excited and involved in working on stuff during the summer that they may never use again. While nearly all students are excited and involved in a second regional, you may be lucky to get 1/3 of the students involved in offseason testing. I agree that on paper, offseason prototyping probably provides the return on investment in terms of learning and increasing the chance of future success, but it may be hard to get potentially short sighted students on board.

My suggestion would be to combine both of these and attend a couple of offseasons. You can still do the prototyping, but this time it has a more practical application--the actual competition. You can do anything from tweaking existing systems, completing re-doing subsystems, using a completely new drivetrain, to building a brand new robot (check out 1625 from this year and I believe 2949 from 2010). Plus, you can train new drivers, pit crew and scouts at these events.

[Luckryan]

My favorite part of FRC?

The people.

Those people make robots seem uninteresting.

I felt that the "Other" option was worthy of being a replacement "All of the Above" option.

Both these things are true.. Getting teams members and really, new team members, to do things off season and during the summer are as people are saying really hard to do. I would say that if you do get money to do the 'off season' prototyping and stuff like that to do it not during the summer and wait to start till after school has started a little.

[Koko Ed]

I like the competition season because I travel to so many (5 last year) and get to meet a lot of cool people.

this

[Dustin Shadbolt]

I agree with the saying of "what off season". I would have to say build season, because it's where the magic happens. I loved it. Competitions are a close second.


Come on guys you know nothing beats waking up in the middle of the night during build season with ideas that need to written down. Also you gotta love the pizza/dew diet.

[krudeboy51]

That anxious, sense of exploration feeling I get when i start programming a newly built robot during build season :D

[SenorZ]

In general, I'd say learning new stuff is the best part. I was shocked at how much I didn't know about engineering/building stuff at the onset of the season.

[AdamHeard]

I agree with the saying of "what off season". I would have to say build season, because it's where the magic happens. I loved it. Competitions are a close second.


Come on guys you know nothing beats waking up in the middle of the night during build season with ideas that need to written down. Also you gotta love the pizza/dew diet.

What I actually meant was despite our best efforts, the core of our team works year round anyway. "What offseason", as in, what do you mean? Who takes time off?

[JesseK]

For now, I like the offseason. I used to like build/competition seasons until they turned into 4 months of non-stop work (or it seemed to). Honestly, it was nice when the build season was 45 days :rolleyes:.

Plus there's plenty of time to experiment in the offseason. For example, I just made this fantastic ratatouille-like dish which is pretty durn good for lunch. My fiancee and I even made fish tacos this last weekend that were better than any we've had at restaurants.