Cowtown Throwdown 2011 Rule Changes

[holygrail]

To those teams participating in Cowtown Throwdown in Kansas City this November 5th, make sure that you take note of the rule changes. You can see them at this link:

http://cttd-robotics.com/files/2011_CTTD_rule_changes.pdf

Interested to hear other teams thoughts about the rule changes.

Good luck everyone. See you there.

[Walter Deitzler]

Thanks for the update! 3397 will be there! :D

[Tommy F.]

These rule changes are going to be interesting to see in action.

I can't wait!

Good luck everybody!

[Alpha Beta]

It looks very similar to IRI:

Bottom row increased in value to equal the middle row.
- For teams capable of filling the rack there is some advantage here. At the KC regional I rarely saw an alliance go over 4 logos. May not make much of a difference at this event. Especially since the top 8 cannot pick amongst themselves. (However KC was a week 2 regional. Some teams have gotten a lot better since then, and Bombsquad is coming to town. Maybe it will play a role.)

Uber tubes allowed to be hung during teleop to act as doublers.
- I like it. Missed Uber tubes clog the scoring lane for us, and become an extra obsticle. Now we can do something productive with them. Advantage still goes to those that can hang them in auto though, which is as it should be.

Minibot scoring adjusted to 20, 20, 15, 15
- While this rule change does diminish the advantage of the fastest minibot, it still makes it imperative that an alliance get two minibots up. Consistancy over speed. We may have to build a back-up that can still climb with partially smoked motors in the event of a catastrophy.

Alliance selection maintains the serpentine, disallows picking amongst the top 8, and allows teams to select a 4th alliance member to rotate in as needed instead of the traditional back-up system.
- Very happy to see the serpentine preserved. I believe this is a departure from the IRI set-up this year. There is some concern that teams will be fighting to be #9 instead of alliance captain #8 in hopes of making themselves available to the top alliance captains. Inspite of that concern I do applaud the effort to make this the most competative set of elimination rounds the CowTown has ever seen.

Lots of other subtle changes to look over as well.

I'm hoping we get 32 operational robots to make the new alliance selection system work. We nearly ran out of functional robots last year and eneded up parking a dead one in front of a goal at one point instead of playing active defense for the CTTD version of Breakaway.

[Michael Blake]

Changes look terrific...

#3481 the Bronc Botz are SO excited to compete at our first Cow Town ThrowDown that we're traveling all-the-way from SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS!!

We're in the process of changing our arm structure and adding an _actual_ #148 Raptor gripper that was awesomely gifted to our team by the Robowranglers (THANKS JVN!)... so, hopefully we'll add some offensive capability to our excellent defensive capability/history...

See you all in KC!!

[Alpha Beta]

It looks like we are at our 32 team max according to the website: http://cttd-robotics.com/pages/competition_information/team_list


16 Bomb Squad Mountain Home High School
935 RaileRobotics Newton High School
1094 Channel Cats River City Robots
1108 Panther Robotics Paola High School
1444 Lightning Lancers Engineering and Technology for Lutheran Youth
1710 Ravonics Revolution Olathe Northwest high School
1723 "The FBI" Independence School District
1730 Team Driven Lee's Summit High School
1764 Liberty Robotics Liberty High School
1769 Team X J.C. Harmon High School
1775 Tiger Bytes Lincoln College Preparatory
1777 Viking Robotics Shawnee Mission West High School
1785 United Robocats Blue Springs School District
1802 Team Stealth Piper Robotics
1806 S.W.A.T. Smithville High School
1810 Jaguar Robotics Mill Valley High School
1825 Metro Homeschool Robotics Metro Homeschool
1939 The Kuh-Nig-Its The Barstow School
1984 Raider Revolution Robotics Shawnee Mission South
1985 Robohawks Hazelwood Central High School
1986 Team Titanium Lee's Summit West High School
1987 Broncobots Lee's Summit North High School
2164 The Corps Harrisonville High School
2345 K.A.R.S Kearney High School
2346 Celtics Archbishop O'Hara High School
2353 The Legion The Pembroke Hill School
2410 Metal Mustang Robotics Blue Valley CAPS Center
2560 Robodogs Grandview Senior High School
2874 Eagles Grain Valley High School
3284 Camdenton 4H LASER Team 3284 Camdenton High School
3481 Bronc Botz Louis D. Brandeis High School
3784 Bit by Bit 4H Club Bit by Bit 4H Club


Some great teams on the list. Six of them were not at the KC regional. 16 (regional champs in Alamo, semifinalists in Chicago, quarterfinalists in Galileo), 1094 (semifinalist St. Louis), 1108 (quarterfinalists in OK City), 1444 (quarterfinalists in St. Louis), 1987 (semifinalist in Chicago) and 3481 (regional champs in Alamo, 17th seed in Archimedes)

I'm familiar with everyone except for 3481. Welcome to Kansas City. I've seen video of you guys playing defense while 16 and 148 scored on your way to the Alamo championship. I'm looking forward to seeing you score with your new gripper. If you need any help navigating your way through our fair city let us know. We're a friendly bunch. :D

[Walter Deitzler]

Our managment didn't register us in time, so 3397 will not be participating, but you can count on us being there next year. :D

[Tommy F.]

Our managment didn't register us in time, so 3397 will not be participating, but you can count on us being there next year. :D

Sorry to see you guys can't come.

[mott]

Thanks to everyone for the input (thus far) on our CowTown rule changes. These changes are heavily based on the IRI Rule Changes, as mentioned on the CTTD-robotics.com site. Thanks again to the IRI guys for setting us up with this scoring system update. For anyone who wasn't fortunate enough to witness IRI first-hand, the changes make the game even better than before!

Aaron highlighted the most significant rule changes in his post above BUT didn't elaborate on one other KEY subtlety related to Ubertubes...

If an alliance fails to score theilr allotted Ubertubes, the opposing alliance can "steal" those Ubertubes and use them as additional doublers on their own scoring rack! While this wasn't frequently witnessed at IRI (with the high-performing autonomous modes there), at CowTown, this could become a MUCH bigger part of the game!

Thanks to everyone planning to attend and Good Luck to all! Less than 2 months to go.

Mike

[Alpha Beta]

If an alliance fails to score theilr allotted Ubertubes, the opposing alliance can "steal" those Ubertubes and use them as additional doublers on their own scoring rack! While this wasn't frequently witnessed at IRI (with the high-performing autonomous modes there), at CowTown, this could become a MUCH bigger part of the game!

That's a great point. If a team fails to get them into their scoring zone they are up for grabs. In the original game we saw great teams without a scoring autonomous (like 45 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1046109&postcount=23)) drive their uber tubes into the middle of the field to create a traffic hazard or potential controlling two game pieces violation for herding while posessing. The rule change for Cow Town would seem to suggest the opposite strategy.

I imagine that there will be some uber tubes that do not get hung in a match or two, but I will be shocked if any alliance gets a chance to steal an uber tube and put a fourth one on their rack. That would mean an alliance failed to, at the least, use their bumpers to push it into their scoring zone. That would be either a huge strategy goof, or a complete drive-train failure. :ahh: I've got enough faith in the 32 teams on the list to wager that won't happen.

[GaryVoshol]

I imagine that there will be some uber tubes that do not get hung in a match or two, but I will be shocked if any alliance gets a chance to steal an uber tube and put a fourth one on their rack. That would mean an alliance failed to, at the least, use their bumpers to push it into their scoring zone. That would be either a huge strategy goof, or a complete drive-train failure. :ahh: I've got enough faith in the 32 teams on the list to wager that won't happen.
It happened more than once at IRI. There may have even been a match in which one side had 5 Ubertubes scored.

[Alpha Beta]

It happened more than once at IRI. There may have even been a match in which one side had 5 Ubertubes scored.

Well, it looks like I've got some video to go watch. If it happened there it could happen anywhere, and I ought to figure out how just in case we have the opportunity.

Did the alliance with the 4th or 5th uber tube dominate the other alliance enough such that the extra tube was not the deciding factor? That would be my first inclination.

[mott]

Not to spoil all the fun for those not able to witness this craziness at IRI but in several cases, the "extra" Ubertube was one that actually fell into the opposition's feeder lane when a robot's autonomous failed to hang it successfully.

And I think Gary is correct about the 5 Ubertubes on one scoring rack. I seem to recall that happening in an early match when the teams probably hadn't fully come to understand that strategy "opportunity"!

I actually would anticipate some matches at Cow Town, for any number of reasons, where robots fail to successfully execute their auton and some Ubertubes end up hanging on the "wrong" end of the field...we shall see!

[Chris is me]

Stolen Ubertubes usually either weren't picked up in a two tube routine or were dropped and rolled into a lane.

[lpickett]

Team Driven is happy to see the out-of-towners coming. We enjoy getting to know new friends and sharing the fun that FIRST brings. Any one that needs help getting around town or has questions, feel free to email us. We are more than happy to help anyone.

[Chexposito]

it will be interesting to see the rule changes for alliance selection, the new format will be interesting... i think this format may get some looks from FIRST ( it's off-season, so seeing a rule change (that could be implemented next year) is risk free on their end) in that it seems to even the playing field more than the current system in the elimination rounds. it may make eliminations closer and more therefore more exciting. it will change scouting strategies for sure, crossing out the top 7 picks you want right off the bat

[holygrail]

Our team is really excited to see how the rule changes from Cowtown change the strategy and feel of the competition. It is just very interesting to see that there is such a difference in values this way. Reliability over speed for the minibots, and because of the different point structure, hanging is so much more important. Alliance selection will be interesting too! I hope that FIRST is watching.

Also, I just have to say that I'm very excited to see that there is such a high caliber of teams attending. It will be really great to get to know some of the out-of-town teams.

Last, I'm curious about the role that Cowtown plays for other teams. For us, we lost 9 seniors last year, but we've replaced them with about 20 freshmen and sophomores. Cowtown is our opportunity to show them what they are getting themselves into. Also, it's a great mentor recruiting tool.

[Tommy F.]

Last, I'm curious about the role that Cowtown plays for other teams. For us, we lost 9 seniors last year, but we've replaced them with about 20 freshmen and sophomores. Cowtown is our opportunity to show them what they are getting themselves into. Also, it's a great mentor recruiting tool.

We were fortunate enough to lose only one senior this year, but he was our (awesome) driver. Our team roster has added 16+ new Freshmen, Sophomores, Juniors and Seniors. We're hoping on bringing most of the rookies with us, and show them what a FIRST event looks like.

[CalTran]

For the rule changes, I'm interested to see how our team changes our scouting since we have to throw out 7 top teams. The Minibot is somewhat of a relief, since we can now focus on making it reliable rather than making a continuously smaller and smaller minibot. Ubertube use should also be interesting, if anyone drops them.

Also, would anyone be interested in a little t-shirt trading? I've got 3 extra 2011 Metal Mustang Robotics shirts that I'd be willing to trade. I'm looking for a Team Titanium or a Bomb Squad tshirt, but any up for grabs is good for me.

[Alpha Beta]

it will be interesting to see the rule changes for alliance selection, the new format will be interesting... i think this format may get some looks from FIRST ( it's off-season, so seeing a rule change (that could be implemented next year) is risk free on their end) in that it seems to even the playing field more than the current system in the elimination rounds. it may make eliminations closer and more therefore more exciting. it will change scouting strategies for sure, crossing out the top 7 picks you want right off the bat

I think I'm really going to like this set-up at the CTTD, especially being able to select our 4th robot and the ability to substitute freely from round to round.

While not being able to pick within the top 7 seems like a great idea for a terminal (no qualification for a follow-up event) offseason event, I have my reservations about it for a regional event. I think it would dilute the level of competition that makes it to the Championship. The 2nd best robot, (perhaps 2nd through 8th best robot if the seeding system does its job) would get left at home while the 9th best robot (at best) would get their ticket punched to Champs.

Now if the goal for Champs is to put on more of an exhibition featuring a broader array of robot quality then this system could accomplish that. Especially since all winning alliances would be guaranteed to have a 4th robot from the middle to bottom of the field.

To keep this system but maintian (or improve) the quality at Champs we would have to send to Champs the winning alliance captain, their first draft pick, kick out their 2nd (or at least their 3rd) draft pick, and invite the finalist captain in their place. While I could support that it would significantly change the dynamics of a regional event.

[Chexposito]

I think I'm really going to like this set-up at the CTTD, especially being able to select our 4th robot and the ability to substitute freely from round to round.

While not being able to pick within the top 7 seems like a great idea for a terminal (no qualification for a follow-up event) offseason event, I have my reservations about it for a regional event. I think it would dilute the level of competition that makes it to the Championship. The 2nd best robot, (perhaps 2nd through 8th best robot if the seeding system does its job) would get left at home while the 9th best robot (at best) would get their ticket punched to Champs.

Now if the goal for Champs is to put on more of an exhibition featuring a broader array of robot quality then this system could accomplish that. Especially since all winning alliances would be guaranteed to have a 4th robot from the middle to bottom of the field.

To keep this system but maintian (or improve) the quality at Champs we would have to send to Champs the winning alliance captain, their first draft pick, kick out their 2nd (or at least their 3rd) draft pick, and invite the finalist captain in their place. While I could support that it would significantly change the dynamics of a regional event.

you have to remember, FIRST is in the process of trying to figure out how to lower the number of teams sent for champs. from each regional (because of the rising number of regionals). with this alliance process, they could do is just take the alliance captain from the winning alliance (theoretically the "best" robot) then limit teams from only taking one slot to champs. so if said team wins another regional, they pick an alliance partner at the second regional for that slot. thus you remove two teams from each regional, for less drastic, take the finalist team captain. all of this is just my thoughts... they might take away not robot based awards if they do.

[Blackphantom91]

CowTown looks to be a very interesting event this year, I love the IRI rule changes in which you can not pick the top 8 It makes things very interesting for sure. What it will be in eliminations is best team vs best team and it wont be matches just ran though, each match will be an exciting one.

Scouting is going to be very crucial this time around and so will working together with your team to create the best strategy.

[Blackphantom91]

Last, I'm curious about the role that Cowtown plays for other teams. For us, we lost 9 seniors last year, but we've replaced them with about 20 freshmen and sophomores. Cowtown is our opportunity to show them what they are getting themselves into. Also, it's a great mentor recruiting tool.

Agreed with all of the above its a great way to get people really sucked in to first and teach in my opinion, we have new members go out and look at all the robots and ask lots of questions get the mind turning.

[Alpha Beta]

Less than a week until the big event (Nov 5th).

The 32 team event features:


9 regional champions from Logomotion (16, 935, 1730, 1984, 1985, 1986, 3284, 3481, and 3784) Representing the Alamo, Oklahoma, Kansas City, St. Louis, and Colorado Regionals)
3 Regional Chairman's Winners from 2011 (1094, 1108, and 1730)
3 Regional Engineering Inspiration Winners from 2011 (1710, 1764, 1986)
3 from the 2011 KC Finalist Alliance (1825, 1939, 3284)


Regardless of past awards the entire field of participants looks fantastic. We look forward to meeting old friends, making some new ones, and training our new team members. Of our 42 student team members this year, 29 of them are new to the team. Please help them feel welcome as they discover what Gracious Professionalism and Coopertition truly mean.

[treffk]

For everyone attending make sure to stop by the cafeteria between 9-1pm. We will be holding the first FLL rumble at Cowtown!

[Ashley Painter]

Hi,
This is Team 3784. We’re finishing up an arm for CowTown but some of the parts we ordered have been delayed. Do you have a Center Stop Solenoid Valve, the electrical connections for it, and the end pieces/ electrical connections for a KOP Festo Solenoid Valve that we could borrow? We would be most grateful if you do.
Thanks

[mott]

Can you send us the part number for the valve you're looking for (and the supplier). We have a variety of valves at our shop that would probably work for you but seeing exactly what you're trying to get might be helpful.

Also, if you've ordered the parts from AndyMark, and they get them by tomorrow, they could bring them when they deliver the field for us. They've done that for us in the past, I know.

You can PM me or post the info here if you'd like.

[CalTran]

Can you send us the part number for the valve you're looking for (and the supplier). We have a variety of valves at our shop that would probably work for you but seeing exactly what you're trying to get might be helpful.

You can PM me or post the info here if you'd like.

Heyy speaking of which, Team 2410 was wondering if we could borrow a KOP Festo Solenoid for the day, as our solenoid may be on backorder until next week T.T Sorta unhelpful considering Cowtown is this weekend... But that's business. Anyways, if we could borrow one that'd be great! You can PM me or post again and let me know! Thank you!

[Alpha Beta]

The 4th annual Cowtown Throwdown is in the books.

Congrats to 16, 1710, 1984 and 2353 for forming the winning alliance. The speed and agility of 16 was a sight to behold. The scoring assists from 1710 combined with the defensive efforts of 1984 and 2353 proved enough to carry the day.

A big thanks to 1985, 1777, and 2560 for joining us (1986) on our finalist run. It was amazing watching the 1985 pit crew use duct tape, zip ties, and some scrap aluminum to try to patch that robot together. You were definitely a fun group to work with and we look forwarding to playing together in the KC and St. Louis regionals. 2560 was a defensive super star on the field. Their drivers were smart (penalty free) and enthusiastically took on the challenge of shutting down our opponents top scorer. 1777 was a steal of a pick. While they only slot fed, they had an efficient path between the rack and the slot, and were capable of putting up 4 tubes consistently in a match. They were a great substitution in our final match and would have made the difference if we had gotten both mini-bots up. Alas our minibot motors smoked on deployment and 1985 had their own malfunction. The victory was not to be. (We're thankful that this was the last hurrah for Logomotion and we don't have to reinvest in more Tetrix motors.)

Thanks to Team Driven (1730), Cerner and all of the other volunteers for hosting the event. It was a fantastic tournament. We really appreciated all of the Friday practice time this year.

They announced that the KC regional will have the full slate of 64 teams this upcoming year. There are still only 53 showing on the FIRST website. Can't wait to see who the other 11 teams will be. See you all at the KC regional.

[iv1777]

The 4th annual Cowtown Throwdown is in the books.

Congrats to 16, 1710, 1984 and 2353 for forming the winning alliance. The speed and agility of 16 was a sight to behold. The scoring assists from 1710 combined with the defensive efforts of 1984 and 2353 proved enough to carry the day.

A big thanks to 1985, 1777, and 2560 for joining us (1986) on our finalist run. It was amazing watching the 1985 pit crew use duct tape, zip ties, and some scrap aluminum to try to patch that robot together. You were definitely a fun group to work with and we look forwarding to playing together in the KC and St. Louis regionals. 2560 was a defensive super star on the field. Their drivers were smart (penalty free) and enthusiastically took on the challenge of shutting down our opponents top scorer. 1777 was a steal of a pick. While they only slot fed, they had an efficient path between the rack and the slot, and were capable of putting up 4 tubes consistently in a match. They were a great substitution in our final match and would have made the difference if we had gotten both mini-bots up. Alas our minibot motors smoked on deployment and 1985 had their own malfunction. The victory was not to be. (We're thankful that this was the last hurrah for Logomotion and we don't have to reinvest in more Tetrix motors.)

Thanks to Team Driven (1730), Cerner and all of the other volunteers for hosting the event. It was a fantastic tournament. We really appreciated all of the Friday practice time this year.

They announced that the KC regional will have the full slate of 64 teams this upcoming year. There are still only 53 showing on the FIRST website. Can't wait to see who the other 11 teams will be. See you all at the KC regional.

And 1777 would like to thank you. You guys were awesome, that robot was very well designed, looks and function, and we'd love to collaborate again! We had so much fun and I must agree; that "bang-up job" with 20 zipties and a half roll of tape was funny!
As he said; congratulations to all, especially Bomb Squad and friends, and thanks to Driven, Cerner, and the volunteers for making this possible. It was so fun!

[jspatz1]

Hi,
This is Team 3784. We’re finishing up an arm for CowTown but some of the parts we ordered have been delayed. Do you have a Center Stop Solenoid Valve, the electrical connections for it, and the end pieces/ electrical connections for a KOP Festo Solenoid Valve that we could borrow? We would be most grateful if you do.
Thanks

If you are refering to a 3-position, center-off valve, be careful with considering this valve in the future, the GDC has prohibited them in the past when used in their normal mode. The valve is capable (in fact likely) of being powered down in the center off position, leaving pressure in the system after power down, which is prohibited. If used in combination with some other valves that guarantee pressure relief everywhere on shudown, it might be allowed.

[Meredith Novak]

Thank you to all our friends at CowTown ThrowDown for another excellent event. Teams 1710 and 1984: it was great to play with you in the finals. Team 2352: it was great to play with you in the finals for the third time!

The most excitement was in 1985's pit and some really inspiring work from their pit crew.

Team Driven, Cerner Corporation, KC FIRST and all their wonderful volunteers have continued to exceed their own high standard for this off-season tournament.

See you all in March. :)

[Alpha Beta]

Alliance selection and elimination round results below. The top 8 were not allowed to pick amongst themselves, and the draft was done in a serpentine including a third round draft pick as an alternate robot.

(#1) 16, 1710, 2353, 1984
(#2) 1730, 1939, 1723, 2410
(#3) 1986, 1985, 1777, 2560
(#4) 2874, 1987, 1785, 1769
(#5) 3284, 935, 1802, 1775
(#6) 3784, 1806, 1444, 1764
(#7) 1108, 1094, 2345, 2346
(#8) 3481, 1825, 1810, 2164

In Quarters:

#1 over #8 in 3 matches
#5 over #4 in 2 matches
#2 over #7 in 3 matches
#3 over #6 in 2 matches

In Semi's:

#1 over #5 in 2 matches
#3 over #2 in 2 matches

In Finals

#1 over #3 in 3 matches

The video crew did a wonderful full field shot for the big screen in the arena. Did anyone record that feed? I'd love to see the matches again.

[Matthew Blake]

Congratulations to all the teams who showed up at the Cow Town Throwdown from team 3481!

We had a blast, and the finals matchs were great! We learned a lot at the competition and we will definitely be coming back next year!

[Tommy F.]

...Did anyone record that feed?...

I haven't found recordings yet, but http://www.andymark.com/ has a time lapse video of Saturday.