[FTC]: Bowled Over game Poll

[Andrew Schuetze]

Lots of hints indicated a bowling theme and a late image had a reference to racquet balls...
Now that the game is out,
What are your thoughts regarding the scoring options and game play?

edit
Post your thoughts after you vote in the poll

[Andrew Lawrence]

It seems very interesting, but seems to lack a way of defense for the alliances. Aside from herding balls away from opponents, there seems to be no major form of defense I can see. Otherwise, it looks like a good game!

[Andrew Schuetze]

It seems very interesting, but seems to lack a way of defense for the alliances. Aside from herding balls away from opponents, there seems to be no major form of defense I can see. Otherwise, it looks like a good game!
Stacks of crate are safe in home zone, otherwise they are open to opposition for knocking over...so who would build in open areas?
APS

[PhilBot]

Note to FTC Newbies....

Don't just watch the Annimation.
Read the rules, Read the rules & then Read the rules again.

Fantastic range of strategies exist with this game. Auto and Teleop.

Points to note..

-No Pre-loads like past years...
-Three different scoring pieces to manipulate this year, with VASTLY different shapes, sizes and weights.
-Max Ball capacity is ENFORCED at inspection time...
-Decorative LEDs can use 12V supply Woo Hoo!!!

Bring it on!!!

Phil.

[alphadog0309]

It is physically impossible in this universe for PhilBot to be any more right.

Here is what i would do:
READ READ READ READ READ
FIND LOOPHOLES
READ READ READ READ READ
FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEFEND YOUR LOOPHOLES
READ READ READ READ READ and READ AGAIN

but overall this is looking cool :) im pretty excited!!!!

[team F.T.C 4240]

I love this game because both red and blue sides are very close the same, as in unlike this past year for us, we had an advantage if we where blue, because the low baton holder was next to the bridge, I also like how you can't get as many points for just "driving", you really need to do stuff to win, not just defend. Although there is a good chance defense bots will push the others team's crates into one of the corners and just sit there. Over all I love the game.

[normalmutant]

What I like about this game is that there's so many different ways to score. This means that robots will be vastly different.
As for a lack of defense, this is very similar to Hot Shot. Defense had to be deliberate and was very time-consuming. I think it's good - it makes the teams strive to outscore each other rather than interfere with each other. May the best robot win.

[alphadog0309]

I strongly suggest re reading <R5>... lots of changes there :)

just to name a few:
1. Any non-reinforced polymer‐based plastic sheet material (e.g. polycarbonate, PVC, acrylic, ABS, Teflon, PETG, etc.) may be used with the following constraints:a. Thickness per sheet not greater than 0.125” (0.3175cm).
b. 24” (60.96cm) maximum dimension on any one side
c. Multiple sheets of different plastic materials are allowed with no maximum area constraint.
d. Plastic sheets may be laminated together to form a block up to a maximum thickness of 0.5” (1.27cm).

4. Commercial PVC couplings (i.e. Tee’s, elbows, couplings, caps, etc.) 3” (7.62cm) or smaller are allowed

No maximum length constraints on any of the aluminum stock

No maximum dimensions on Non-Slip Mesh

This is gonna be a good year :)

[MattSr]

It seems very interesting, but seems to lack a way of defense for the alliances. Aside from herding balls away from opponents, there seems to be no major form of defense I can see. Otherwise, it looks like a good game!

The way I see it, the goal of this whole competition is to solve problems (put extremely simply), and playing defense requires nothing more than having a box on some geared up wheels.

[JesseK]

I see a potential lockdown strategy just from the animation; haven't read the rules though so I don't know if it walks the line on anything. Fun.

The racquet balls are just going to get in the way :rolleyes:

6-lb bowling balls = lots of magic smoke, heh. This is not a high-speed drive train game.

[team F.T.C 4240]

I agree, yesterday we used a 1:1 gear ratio and could hardly get the ball up the ramp, so gearing down is a good idea. Also the balls are very annoying because the like to go under the robot/wheels :rolleyes: also I think "defense bots" will find cool ways to make the "offence bots" work for there points, like maybe pushing some of there crates/balls into a corner while your partner scores. Just some ideas I had.

[JesseK]

Defense: simply put your bowling ball in front of their ramp before the end game. If you can't push it up your own platform, it may be worth it to force them into a decision of risking a 40-pt penalty just to get up their ramp for whatever reason.

[normalmutant]

The racquet balls are just going to get in the way :rolleyes:


Remember that the raquetballs are needed for stacking to count.

[Andrew Schuetze]

:rolleyes: also I think "defense bots" will find cool ways to make the "offence bots" work for there points, like maybe pushing some of there crates/balls into a corner while your partner scores. Just some ideas I had.
So a defensive strategy disguised as offense would be to push all the racquetballs into your low goal on the floor...:)

[alphadog0309]

Remember that the raquetballs are needed for stacking to count.

Either way they are going to get in the way :) seeing as you can only pick up 15 at a time, you wont have a clear field after 1:30 like you did with hot shot... its very likely that a lot of maneuvering will have to be done in order to get around the balls and/or proper robot design will ensure that you dont get caught up on the balls.

[team F.T.C 4240]

Defense: simply put your bowling ball in front of their ramp before the end game. If you can't push it up your own platform, it may be worth it to force them into a decision of risking a 40-pt penalty just to get up their ramp for whatever reason.

We thought of that too, but then we built the field...... and its 4 feet wide, so its very easy to get around it. One of my ideas was to take the ball to the top of the ramp, and go robot bowling!!!!!

[JesseK]

... go robot bowling!!!!!

Oh no ><

[team F.T.C 4240]

Just an idea. ;)

[normalmutant]

It could happen. However, since it's only 6 pounds and the slope is only 20degrees, it shouldn't hit any harder than a robot ramming at full speed. I don't know if the rookie bots will survive...

[JesseK]

Technically there isn't a rule against this yet, and it may be effective defense against a number of strategies:

You could pick up their bowling ball, and place it in one of their crates, or one of your crates. For those inclined to be particularly mean, the ball could be placed in a crate that's in/on an opposing alliance's robot. That'll teach 'em!

[alanlevezu]

I don't see a rule that says your bowling ball can't enter their protected area...

A "strike" at the right opportune time to their stack (within the protected area) is technically legal (so far)...

[team F.T.C 4240]

Technically there isn't a rule against this yet, and it may be effective defense against a number of strategies:

You could pick up their bowling ball, and place it in one of their crates, or one of your crates. For those inclined to be particularly mean, the ball could be placed in a crate that's in/on an opposing alliance's robot. That'll teach 'em!

Well there is a rule about not aiming to damage other robots, and even though its a good idea, they might call you for rolling a bowling ball down the ramp just to hit another robot. Here's the rule
2.4.5 <G8> In the FTC game Manual says "Strategies and mechanisms aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of Robots are not in the spirit of the FIRST Tech Challenge and are not allowed. However, Bowled Over! is a highly interactive contact game. Some tipping, entanglement, and damage may occur as a part of normal game play. If the tipping, entanglement, or damage is ruled to be deliberate, the offending team may be Disqualified for that Match. Repeated offenses could result in a team being Disqualified from the remainder of the competition."

[Joachim]

What are your thoughts regarding the scoring options and game play?


Lots of varied scoring options, like here, makes for a fun and interesting game. I like how the need to have at least one ball inside the stacked crates makes stacking for points that much more difficult.

I think the referees' job will be hard, though, unless the Q&A and revisions process makes it easier.

As far as I can tell from the rules, the following is the game-specific stuff (not including the usual no pinning, no removing objects, etc.) a ref has to watch during autonomous and driver-controlled, but before end-game:

(I'll start with easy things to spot, then move to the harder ones)

1. No descoring from opponent off-field goal.
2. No placing ball in opponent off-field goal.
3. No pushing your own bowling ball into your Home Zone (or no score during end-game).
4. No pushing opponent bowling ball into your Home Zone.
5. No pushing opponent bowling ball into your Protected Area. (But what about a long-distance roll?)
6. No pushing opponent crate into your Home Zone.
7. No pushing opponent crate into your Protected Area.
8. No removing balls from crate in opponent Protected Area (but OK to remove loose balls from Protected Area and OK to remove from crates elsewhere, including apparently in the opponent Home Zone [although you can't "make contact" with a stationary crate there]).
9. No contacting an opponent crate when the crate is not in contact with arena floor. (-5)
10. No contacting an opponent crate on an inside surface of the crate. (-5)
11. No contacting an opponent crate on more than two outside surfaces of the crate at the same time. (-5)
12. No making contact with "parked" (stationary) crates in opponent's Protected Area or Home Zone. (Ref must watch for moving vs. stationary crates and for borders of Protected Area or Home Zone.)
13. No making contact with "parked" (stationary) stacks in opponent's Protected Area or Home Zone. (Ref must watch for moving vs. stationary stacks and for borders of protected area or home zone.)
14. No "storing, holding, controlling, containing, etc." balls in excess of 15 at any time. (Ref must watch for the 16th "controlled" ball and every additional one beyond.)
15. No making contact with opponent's robot while "stacking" (holding one crate off the ground at least partly over another below it) in "Protected Area" (but not, apparently, in opponent's "Home Zone"). (Ref must watch for "Protected Area" border, for whether lifted crate is actually over another crate, and for whether contact is "made" at that time or only before and/or after.)

During end-game, the ref can ignore #3, which doesn't count then, but has to add:

16. No making contact with opponent bowling ball.
17. No making contact with opponent Home Zone.

These last two are easy by themselves, but monitoring all 15 or 16 of these conditions at the same time, for 4 robots simultaneously, seems like a lot to ask, whether in autonomous, driver control, or end-game.

Maybe they should try four refs per field this year, one for each robot!

Joachim

[PAR_WIG1350]

The # of potential penalties is nothing compared to Logomotion.

[Joachim]

The # of potential penalties is nothing compared to Logomotion.

So I guess Logomotion was hard to ref (too)? Did penalties that went unrecognized until after the match decide matches very often in Logomotion?

In Bowled Over, if you subtract the two Protected Areas and Home Zones from the field and add four large FTC robots and 12 un-stacked crates spread out over the rest of the field, almost 1/2 of the rest of the field area is already covered. Then add 100 racket balls which you also have to watch to make sure not more than 15 are "controlled."

It will certainly be fun to play, but the high level of interaction between robots and objects and the many potential penalties will make it hard to ref.

[normalmutant]

1. No descoring from opponent off-field goal.
2. No placing ball in opponent off-field goal.
3. No pushing your own bowling ball into your Home Zone (or no score during end-game).
4. No pushing opponent bowling ball into your Home Zone.
5. No pushing opponent bowling ball into your Protected Area. (But what about a long-distance roll?)
6. No pushing opponent crate into your Home Zone.
7. No pushing opponent crate into your Protected Area.
8. No removing balls from crate in opponent Protected Area (but OK to remove loose balls from Protected Area and OK to remove from crates elsewhere, including apparently in the opponent Home Zone [although you can't "make contact" with a stationary crate there]).
9. No contacting an opponent crate when the crate is not in contact with arena floor. (-5)
10. No contacting an opponent crate on an inside surface of the crate. (-5)
11. No contacting an opponent crate on more than two outside surfaces of the crate at the same time. (-5)
12. No making contact with "parked" (stationary) crates in opponent's Protected Area or Home Zone. (Ref must watch for moving vs. stationary crates and for borders of Protected Area or Home Zone.)
13. No making contact with "parked" (stationary) stacks in opponent's Protected Area or Home Zone. (Ref must watch for moving vs. stationary stacks and for borders of protected area or home zone.)
14. No "storing, holding, controlling, containing, etc." balls in excess of 15 at any time. (Ref must watch for the 16th "controlled" ball and every additional one beyond.)
15. No making contact with opponent's robot while "stacking" (holding one crate off the ground at least partly over another below it) in "Protected Area".
16. No making contact with opponent bowling ball.
17. No making contact with opponent Home Zone.

Nine (or more?) of these have to do with the home zone/protected zone. As long as the refs are watching those closely, it shouldn't be extremely hard. However, learning and remembering all of those rules could be very annoying.

[JesseK]

However, learning and remembering all of those rules could be very annoying.

Refs have cheat sheets for the numbers. They simply need to know if an observed action IS a penalty and the rest can be sorted out after the match.

[MayerMechanic]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/register.php?a=act&u=56411&i=78111317
Would i be right in saying that you could just pull out the bottom ball holder in this stack to legally descore that entire stack?

[NHB836]

I agree, yesterday we used a 1:1 gear ratio and could hardly get the ball up the ramp, so gearing down is a good idea. Also the balls are very annoying because the like to go under the robot/wheels :rolleyes: also I think "defense bots" will find cool ways to make the "offence bots" work for there points, like maybe pushing some of there crates/balls into a corner while your partner scores. Just some ideas I had.

honestly i believe that instead of worrying about the bowling balls (except in autonomous) it would be better to make higher crate stacks in the endgame. if you add one crate to a 3 crate stack you already have that's 10 more points then the bowling ball could give you

[JohnFogarty]

LED's are allowed in the 12VOLT supply again. YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[team F.T.C 4240]

LED's are allowed in the 12VOLT supply again. YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It could also help as "indication" like if you get the magnetic baton I mean ball.