2012 New York City Regional

[rabridges]

Hello everyone

I’m Antron, Senior Mentor from FRC Team 395 2 Train Robotics. I’m starting this thread for the NYC regional, as we count down the days until Kickoff. This thread can be use to make predictions for the up coming season, how is your team preparing, what do except or what ever you feel like writing. To start it off, I made a list of teams that have sign up so far. And will continue to post teams as they are updated on the FIRST website.

Thank you and have a Xcellent 2012 season.


Team # Name Location
1972 Searing Engineering El Centro, CA
2168 Aluminum Falcons Groton, CT
395 2 Train Robotics Bronx, NY
1155 Bronx Sciborgs Bronx, NY
2265 Fe Maidens Brooklyn, NY
333 Megalodons Brooklyn, NY
369 High Voltage Brooklyn, NY
2601 Steel Hawks Flushing, NY
3017 Patriots Fresh Meadows, NY
3204 TMLA Robotics Team Jamaica Estates, NY
694 Stuy Pulse New York, NY
759 Systemetics Cambridge, UK
806 The Brooklyn Black smiths Brooklyn, NY
1660 Harlem Knights New York, NY
522 Robo Wizards Staten Island, NY
354 G-House Pirates Brooklyn, NY
4012 St. Joe’s (Rookie Team) Staten Island
1230 Lehman Lionics Bronx, NY
2933 BASH Bronx, NY
2869 Regal Eagles Bethpage, NY
4023 Wolvarines (Rookie Team) Buffalo, NY

[rabridges]

Undated NYC Regional:



Team # Name
1972 Searing Engineering
2168 Aluminum Falcons
395 2 Train Robotics
1155 Bronx Sciborgs
2265 Fe Maidens
333 Megalodons
369 High Voltage
2601 Steel Hawks
3017 Patriots
3204 TMLA Robotics Team
694 Stuy Pulse
759 Systemetics
806 The Brooklyn Black smiths
1660 Harlem Knights
522 Robo Wizards
354 G-House Pirates
4012 St. Joe’s (Rookie Team)
1230 Lehman Lionics
2933 BASH
2869 Regal Eagles
4023 Wolvarines (Rookie Team)
1396 Pyrobots
2895 Blazenbots
1340 Adams Robotics

[BlacksmithWoods]

Great, can't wait till Competition. Great to see a robotics team in Buffalo. Many of my family members live there, and it always dawned on me that they needed one there. Thanks, can't wait to see you all at Competition. :D

[rabridges]

Great, can't wait till Competition. Great to see a robotics team in Buffalo. Many of my family members live there, and it always dawned on me that they needed one there. Thanks, can't wait to see you all at Competition. :D

Your Welcome

[rabridges]

NYC Regional team list updated, 25 spaces filled, 29 open.


Team # Name Location
1972 Searing Engineering El Centro, CA
2168 Aluminum Falcons Groton, CT
395 2 Train Robotics Bronx, NY
1155 Bronx Sciborgs Bronx, NY
2265 Fe Maidens Brooklyn, NY
333 Megalodons Brooklyn, NY
369 High Voltage Brooklyn, NY
2601 Steel Hawks Flushing, NY
3017 Patriots Fresh Meadows, NY
3204 TMLA Robotics Team Jamaica Estates, NY
694 Stuy Pulse New York, NY
759 Systemetics Cambridge, UK
806 The Brooklyn Black smiths Brooklyn, NY
1660 Harlem Knights New York, NY
522 Robo Wizards Staten Island, NY
354 G-House Pirates Brooklyn, NY
4012 St. Joe’s (Rookie Team) Staten Island
1230 Lehman Lionics Bronx, NY
2933 BASH Bronx, NY
2869 Regal Eagles Bethpage, NY
4023 Wolvarines (Rookie Team) Buffalo, NY
1396 Pyrobots Staten Island, NY
2895 Blazenbots Far Rockaway, NY
1340 Adams Robotics Queens, NY
421 The Warriors Bronx, NY

[rabridges]

NYC regional team list update, 27 spaces filled and 27 spaces open.


Team # Name Location
1972 Searing Engineering El Centro, CA
2168 Aluminum Falcons Groton, CT
395 2 Train Robotics Bronx, NY
1155 Bronx Sciborgs Bronx, NY
2265 Fe Maidens Brooklyn, NY
333 Megalodons Brooklyn, NY
369 High Voltage Brooklyn, NY
2601 Steel Hawks Flushing, NY
3017 Patriots Fresh Meadows, NY
3204 TMLA Robotics Team Jamaica Estates, NY
694 Stuy Pulse New York, NY
759 Systemetics Cambridge, UK
806 The Brooklyn Black smiths Brooklyn, NY
1660 Harlem Knights New York, NY
522 Robo Wizards Staten Island, NY
354 G-House Pirates Brooklyn, NY
4012 St. Joe’s (Rookie Team) Staten Island
1230 Lehman Lionics Bronx, NY
2933 BASH Bronx, NY
2869 Regal Eagles Bethpage, NY
4023 Wolvarines (Rookie Team) Buffalo, NY
1396 Pyrobots Staten Island, NY
2895 Blazenbots Far Rockaway, NY
1340 Adams Robotics Queens, NY
421 The Warriors Bronx, NY
334 Tech Knights Brooklyn, NY
3053 VB Stingers Queen Village, NY

[Akash Rastogi]

Putting my money on 2168 and 395 for this one.

[thefro526]

Putting my money on 2168 and 395 for this one.

Unless a new Challenger Appears?

[rabridges]

Putting my money on 2168 and 395 for this one.

That's a xcellent start.

[Akash Rastogi]

Even with newcomers, can't forget the strong performers: 354, 1155, 694, 369, hopefully some others will have a strong year as well. Might see a few MAR teams register- 341, 56, and 11 have been to NYC in the past.

[Ninja_Bait]

694 is looking for another win this year for sure (maybe championships, too). Last year we finished fifth in Galileo, and ended as quarterfinalists in NYC, UTC and FWC. Not bad so far, but we're itching to prove that we can do more.

But honestly, I'm just excited about the Aluminum Falcons visiting. Usually strong traveling teams do really well in NY. Looks like this will be a great competition as usual.

[jwfoss]

But honestly, I'm just excited about the Aluminum Falcons visiting. Usually strong traveling teams do really well in NY. Looks like this will be a great competition as usual.

On behalf of 2168, we share your excitement on making the trip up to the Big Apple to compete this year. Last year was the teams first year competing at more than just CT, and I expect the team to being traveling to other regionals in the future.

We've heard rumblings of other teams from CT, MA, and NJ who may be selecting NYC as their second regional and wait in antisipation of the final list.

[rabridges]

NYC Regional team list update, 29 spaces filled and 25 spaces open.


Team # Name Location
1972 Searing Engineering El Centro, CA
2168 Aluminum Falcons Groton, CT
395 2 Train Robotics Bronx, NY
1155 Bronx Sciborgs Bronx, NY
2265 Fe Maidens Brooklyn, NY
333 Megalodons Brooklyn, NY
369 High Voltage Brooklyn, NY
2601 Steel Hawks Flushing, NY
3017 Patriots Fresh Meadows, NY
3204 TMLA Robotics Team Jamaica Estates, NY
694 Stuy Pulse New York, NY
759 Systemetics Cambridge, UK
806 The Brooklyn Black smiths Brooklyn, NY
1660 Harlem Knights New York, NY
522 Robo Wizards Staten Island, NY
354 G-House Pirates Brooklyn, NY
4012 St. Joe’s (Rookie Team) Staten Island
1230 Lehman Lionics Bronx, NY
2933 BASH Bronx, NY
2869 Regal Eagles Bethpage, NY
4023 Wolvarines (Rookie Team) Buffalo, NY
1396 Pyrobots Staten Island, NY
2895 Blazenbots Far Rockaway, NY
1340 Adams Robotics Queens, NY
421 The Warriors Bronx, NY
334 Tech Knights Brooklyn, NY
3053 VB Stingers Queen Village, NY
743 Technobots Bronx, NY
4071 Diatonic Carbonites (Rookie Team) Syracuse, NY

[rabridges]

NYC Regional team list updated, 31 Spaces filed and 23 open spaces.


Team # Name Location
1972 Searing Engineering El Centro, CA
2168 Aluminum Falcons Groton, CT
395 2 Train Robotics Bronx, NY
1155 Bronx Sciborgs Bronx, NY
2265 Fe Maidens Brooklyn, NY
333 Megalodons Brooklyn, NY
369 High Voltage Brooklyn, NY
2601 Steel Hawks Flushing, NY
3017 Patriots Fresh Meadows, NY
3204 TMLA Robotics Team Jamaica Estates, NY
694 Stuy Pulse New York, NY
759 Systemetics Cambridge, UK
806 The Brooklyn Black smiths Brooklyn, NY
1660 Harlem Knights New York, NY
522 Robo Wizards Staten Island, NY
354 G-House Pirates Brooklyn, NY
4012 St. Joe’s (Rookie Team) Staten Island
1230 Lehman Lionics Bronx, NY
2933 BASH Bronx, NY
2869 Regal Eagles Bethpage, NY
4023 Wolvarines (Rookie Team) Buffalo, NY
1396 Pyrobots Staten Island, NY
2895 Blazenbots Far Rockaway, NY
1340 Adams Robotics Queens, NY
421 The Warriors Bronx, NY
334 Tech Knights Brooklyn, NY
3053 VB Stingers Queen Village, NY
743 Technobots Bronx, NY
4071 Diatonic Carbonites (Rookie Team) Syracuse, NY
2205 Juggernauts Katonah, NY
3059 Envirobotics Yonkers, NY

[waialua359]

Good luck to the teams this year, especially the Chairman's Award.

Little did we know that if you won the CA Award, there is a FIRST sponsor that pays for your registration expense for a regional the following year.

We surprisingly found out when i signed up for Houston, only to find that it was then paid a few days later with $1000 credit going toward CMP also. :)

I'm curious as to what other regionals do that also. Its the first I've heard of such an award.

[rabridges]

Good luck to the teams this year, especially the Chairman's Award.

Little did we know that if you won the CA Award, there is a FIRST sponsor that pays for your registration expense for a regional the following year.

We surprisingly found out when i signed up for Houston, only to find that it was then paid a few days later with $1000 credit going toward CMP also. :)

I'm curious as to what other regionals do that also. Its the first I've heard of such an award.


Good luck to your team as well, it would be xcellent to play with your team again. Hopefully we'll see you all in St. Louis.

[Hallry]

FRC Team 1676, the Pascack Pi-oneers, from across and up the Hudson are now signed up, and can't wait to see you all there! :D

[rabridges]

The Final Team List for NYC:


Team # Name Location
125 Nutrons Boston, MA
195 Cyber Knights Southington, CT
263 Sachem Aftershock Lake Ronkonkoma, NY
270 Falcons Deer Park, NY
271 Mechanical Marauders Bay shore, NY
329 Raiders Medford, NY
333 Megaloddons Brooklyn, NY
334 TechKnight Brooklyn, NY
353 PObots Plainview, NY
354 G-House Pirates Brooklyn, NY
369 High Voltage Brooklyn, NY
395 2 Train Robotics Bronx, NY
421 The Warriors Bronx, NY
522 Robo Wizrads State Island, NY
694 StuyPlus New York, NY
743 Technobots Bronx, NY
759 Systemetric Cambridge, UK
806 The Brooklyn Blacksmiths Brooklyn, NY
846 The Funky Monkeys San Jose, CA
1155 SciBorgs Bronx, NY
1230 The Lehman Lionics Bronx, NY
1279 Cold Fusion Somerville, NJ
1340 Adams robotics Queens, NY
1396 Pyrobots Staten Island, NY
1635 Technotics Elmhurst, NY
1660 Harlem Knights New York, NY
1676 The Pascack PI-oneers Montvale, NJ
1796 RoboTigers Long Island, NY
1880 Warriors of East Harlem New York, NY
1972 Searing Engineering El Centro, CA
2016 Mighty Monkey Wrenches Ewing, NJ
2168 Aluminum Falcons Groton, CT
2205 Juggernauts Katonah, NY
2234 Antibot Newtown Square, PA
2265 Fe Maidens Bronx, NY
2601 Steel Hawks Flushing, NY
2869 Regal Eagles Bethpage, NY
2895 Blazenbots Far Rockaway, NY
2933 BASH Bronx, NY
3017 Patriots Fresh Meadows, NY
3053 VB Stringers Queens Village, NY
3059 Envirobotics Yonkers, NY
3204 TLMA Robotics Team Jamaica Estates, NY
3308 JHS, Breavers Jamaica NY
3419 RoHawks New York, NY
3645 Runtime Error Forest Hills, NY
3760 Aerospace Bronx, NY
3927 RAWR(Rookie Team) Weymouth, MA
4012 Bad News Bots(Rookie Team) Staten Island, NY
4023 Wolvarines(Rookie Team) Buffalo, NY
4071 Diatonics Carbonites(Rookie Team) Syracuse, NY
4094 The Wolves(Rookie Team) Angus, ON Canada
4108 CougarBotz(Rookie Team) New York, NY
4122 Ossineers(Rookie Team) Ossining, NY

[Ninja_Bait]

Hey, Mighty Monkey Wrenches! Awesome. 1676, 195, and 125 also did really well last year. I'm definitely looking for an Einsteiner from this regional. (Preferably us.)

By the way, 694 is Stuypulse, not Stuyplus.

[rabridges]

Hey, Mighty Monkey Wrenches! Awesome. 1676, 195, and 125 also did really well last year. I'm definitely looking for an Einsteiner from this regional. (Preferably us.)

By the way, 694 is Stuypulse, not Stuyplus.


Sorry about that, correction made.

[ks_mumupsi]

yea.... we decided to take a swim across the river :)

am excited to be able to play with stuy after some time and many of the other ny teams... should be a blast. am also glad we will have some other nj company with our friends from pascack (reminds me of last year such an awesome time) and cold fusion.. (reminds me of the 2008 alliance at NJ, 694, 1279 and 2016)

As far as Einstein goes. gotta get through MAR (atleast for us NJ'ers) or NY first to get there.. heh.

c ya in 5 months.

[jblay]

Wow a lot of really great teams attending NYC this year. Probably the most stacked I've ever seen this field in large part thanks to MAR. Going to be an exciting event and the most fun NYC regional we've had in a long time.

Looking forward to seeing old friends and making some new ones.

[the.miler]

Team 846 - The Funky Monkeys, hailing from Silicon Valley, is bringing funky to New York City.

There are now two monkey teams in NYC.

[DonRotolo]

yea.... we decided to take a swim across the river :)
Monkey Wrenches, Funky Monkeys, it's all good.

NYC will rock this year. Can't wait to play with StuyPulse PLUS (it's more than StuyPulse...) at least I think that's what Antron meant...

[jblay]

Why can't I like Don's post. Get with it CD

[GlassPrison142]

Our mentor tried to sign us up, but the website crashed on him when he was trying.

Team 527 is on the waiting list as of now :(

[jblay]

Can't believe NYC is only 2 days away. Looks like its going to be a fantastic event especially in the eliminations. With a group of solid fender bots and another group of solid key shooters it will be very interesting to see how alliances form. I suspect that every alliance that makes the semi finals will have a very close together shot at winning the entire event.

[BlacksmithWoods]

Can't believe NYC is only 2 days away. Looks like its going to be a fantastic event especially in the eliminations. With a group of solid fender bots and another group of solid key shooters it will be very interesting to see how alliances form. I suspect that every alliance that makes the semi finals will have a very close together shot at winning the entire event.

Yeah, your right, it's going to be a close one this year. I can't wait to see all of you there! :D

[mom1155]

40+ robots already at Javits--snug & warm in their pits.

Can't wait to see them in action tomorrow.

[cziggy343]

Hello New York Regional Teams!

On behalf of Diamond Bullet Studios, we are excited to announce that we will be in New York this weekend to show off Catalyst 2012!

Please view our blog for more information!

http://www.dbsgames.net/blog/

[mom1155]

NYC Day 1 pictures are posted to Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/nycfirst

[Hallry]

NASA will be webcasting the NYC Regional, which will be streamed on team1676.com.

[Spatel7793]

Reminder to teams,

Pits open at 8:00AM
Opening Ceremonies at 9:00AM
First matches begin at 9:15 (hopefully)

Also, I will not be in the pit admin desk the entire time, so flag me down if you guys need anything

-Sameer Patel (the guy who was making the announcements today)::safety::

[jblay]

Has anyone been able to find a match schedule yet?

[Chinmay]

Haven't been able to find the schedule. I am pretty sure it wasn't released to teams today at the event either.

[Spatel7793]

Teams will receive a match schedule sometime between 8:00AM and 9:00AM

-Sameer

[RoboTigers1796]

If any team need help with their robot, programming or bumpers team 1796 RTESS (RoboTiger Emergency Service Squad) will be able to help. We left flyers with QR codes in everyone pit area so please take advantage and contact us. Friday we helped many teams and we are looking forward in helping many others!

P.S --> Our Emergency Service Squad specialize in: Drive trains, Java programming, electronic board wiring and diagnosis. Any technical or mechanical trouble you have, we have the solution!

[Vision]

New York City Regional streaming exclusively on The Red Alliance www.theredalliance.com (http://www.theredalliance.com)

[DonRotolo]

New York City Regional streaming exclusively
Well no, not exactly exclusively.

http://robotics.arc.nasa.gov/events/2012_frcwebcasts.php#webcasts lists several webcasts for this weekend.

Bayou Regional
Boilermaker Regional
Montreal Regional
Los Angeles Regional
Peachtree Regional
Sacramento Regional
Utah Regional
Virginia Regional
New York City Regional*
Detroit FRC District Event*
West Michigan District Event*

[Grim Tuesday]

The 522 triple balancer is absolutely brilliant.

[kjohnson]

The 522 triple balancer is absolutely brilliant.

I can't believe what I just saw.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/nukemknight/TheRedAlliance-LiveFeedsWebcasts-WindowsInternetExplorer_2012-03-18_13-50-49.png

[Tom Bottiglieri]

The 522 triple balancer is absolutely brilliant.
Here is what they do.

[Akash Rastogi]

The 522 triple balancer is absolutely brilliant.

That was awesome. Brandon Holley's status before elims was "Get ready for a show in quarterfinal 3 in NYC"

[Dancin103]

I can't believe what I just saw.


Just insane! I guess space is not of an issue for that alliance! LOL

[BJC]

How do they get up there?

[kjohnson]

How do they get up there?

Their two partners squeezed them up there using the angles on the bottom of their frame.

[Akash Rastogi]

Their two partners squeezed them up there using the angles on the bottom of their frame.


522 got on first, then 125 pushed them up and tilted the bridge to the other side. Then 1635 got on and pushed from the other side. 522 used their bridge manipulator to tilt themselves up onto the angled frame of 1635 then 125 pushed in more.

It was brilliant. All I got was a screen shot but I'm sure pics and videos will surface.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150617234446641&set=a.419909586640.187675.645471640&type=1&theater

[Akash Rastogi]

AND THEY PULL IT OFF AGAIN! Insane.:yikes:

[Jared Russell]

Unbelievable! And hilarious.

[Brandon_L]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2NVjTCtApc

might still be processing.

The second of the triple balances

[George Nishimura]

That is amazing balancing skills.

Did the human player just make 5 points there? Or am I just seeing things when there scored jumped 5 points after balancing...

[TD912]

Wow, that last-second balance in Semi 1-2 was something! Score was 28-27 and Blue managed to double balance to win 28-47, literally at the last second...

[penguinfrk]

WOW The triple balance in SF2-2.
Brilliant driving, it looked like 125 was going to tip for a bit...

[Akash Rastogi]

Very sad to see 2168 knocked out, IMO, due to bad strategy.

Awesome to see 125 in the finals though! :D

[trident523]

Here's a video of the last match, including the triple balance (16: SF 2-2).

http://youtu.be/6KRImBzu1Qo

[TD912]

Hmm... Team timeout, then a Technical timeout to verify rules? What's going on at NYC?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Watching the #7 alliance do a triple balance is great. 522 is able to tip up onto their partners' bumpers using their bridge manipulator.

[nathannfm]

Crazy ballance #5 it's much smoother now, 522 just crawls up on to 1635 and 125 pushes them together.

[George Nishimura]

Where did those six points come from? The game ended 26-36...?

[dodar]

Where did those six points come from? The game ended 26-36...?

Thats what I thought too. Blue should have won because of the 2nd tiebreaker rule of more points in hybrid.

[Grim Tuesday]

Where did those six points come from? The game ended 26-36...?

This. If it had tied, it would have gone to blue; first tie breaker is penalties, and they were equal. Second is hybrid and blue would have won. Lots of weird calls in that match:

G23 could have been been invoked; two robots crossing over could be construed breaking the flow.

I believe one of the blue robots was incapacitated when it was pushed into the red key. G45 could have been invoked.

[TD912]

Wow, crazy defense Final match 2...
Lots of fouls from both teams during the heavy pushing matches too...

Red was able to stop blue from doing another triple balance, though...

EDIT: Lots of things happening during that match... Not sure how this will turn out...

[Andy Grady]

What strategy is more intriguing at this point? The 522/125/1635 hybrid-triple balance "dare you to score 40 points worth of baskets on us" strategy, or the 195/369/333 "blow this whole match up to see how you respond" strategy. A brilliant chess match to finish this competition.

[bduddy]

So... can anyone explain what 333 was trying to do during that last match?

[Akash Rastogi]

Wooot! Congrats 125 1635 and 522 on an awesome regional championship!

[Grim Tuesday]

So... can anyone explain what 333 was trying to do during that last match?

I can't really think of a good reason for what they were doing, other than if their robot failed.

[davepowers]

So... can anyone explain what 333 was trying to do during that last match?

I'd say prevent the triple balance, but they hit the bridge a couple of times pretty much guaranteeing they would get it. It seems they either had trouble controlling themselves, or didn't read the rules to well.

Also congrats to the winning teams 125 1635 and 522! And also awesome job to 195, 333, and 369!
-D

[George Nishimura]

So... can anyone explain what 333 was trying to do during that last match?

Well at one point they were helping the team triple balance, so co-opertition?

I enjoyed the 195/333/369 second match strategy. Defense all the way.

[TD912]

Hmm... If Red didn't do crazy defense that gave Blue 21 foul points in final match 3, they might have had a better chance of winning.

http://i.imgur.com/6W5EX.png

[penguinfrk]

My guesses until someone at NYC clears things up

Finals 2 - Inbounder shots that didn't register before the scoreboard vanished swung the 26-36? Otherwise I have no clue why, because Blue's strategy in not letting 125 on the bridge made total sense if it would've resulted in a tie.

Finals 3 - Red decided that they didn't care about penalties as long as they stopped the triple. 333 still should've backed off after 125 was on the bridge (even before 1635 got on), but they seemed to be having issues/have given up by then.

Great elimination rounds, congratulations to all the teams!

[bduddy]

Here's the video, thanks to trident for getting it up so quickly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfzwtQq3b0w&list=PLBAFC53E767A67773&index=1&feature=plpp_video

I have no idea what 333 was trying to do... it looks like they helped blue way more than they hurt them.

[Res0lu7ion]

Congrats to our alliance for the incredible gameplay.

[Lil' Lavery]

Hmm... If Red didn't do crazy defense that gave Blue 21 foul points in final match 3, they might have had a better chance of winning.

333 should have received a red card under [G25] in addition to those.

[George Nishimura]

Is it confirmed that they received the 9pt technical for bridge interfering? I assume so, because to me that red bridge is not balanced as 333 rammed it at the final second and is supporting 125.

[Akash Rastogi]

333 should have received a red card under [G25] in addition to those.

Definitely. Maybe they didn't want to pour salt into a wound though.

[Ninja_Bait]

This was an exciting match and it couldn't have been more fun! Our bridge control strategy worked great!

We couldn't be more jealous - we tried to go for a triple balance in our second elim match, and we were just too darn big. Oh, well.

Amazing playing, guys.

[Alex Cormier]

We sold RoboTowels to a few teams in attendance of the NYC Regional. Does anyone have some good photos of them being used by any of the teams?

Thanks!

[Horsegirrl]

I hope everyone had a great time at NYC, i know i did! I figure since i was up close i would upload one of the pic's i snapped of the winning alliance and their triple balance!

[Reanna]

What is the team name of the rookie team who scored 66nd?

[huberje]

What is the team name of the rookie team who scored 66nd?

Team 3760 - Aerospace

[jblay]

Just an amazing event. So many great teams all around and an awesome set of elimination rounds. What a weird and wildcard alliance that formed in the 7th slot to take the entire thing, every time I saw the balance, it was better and better. It was so good that the field crew left the bots on the field for the award ceremonies.

[Matt Krass]

Just an amazing event. So many great teams all around and an awesome set of elimination rounds. What a weird and wildcard alliance that formed in the 7th slot to take the entire thing, every time I saw the balance, it was better and better. It was so good that the field crew left the bots on the field for the award ceremonies.

When we were competing I remember watching that balance thinking "Man, I'm not looking forward to playing against that...". Unfortunately, we were eliminated before that could happen.

Overall, it was a pretty good event, I thought the field crew did an excellent job running things and overall the event felt pretty pulled together and smooth. There were a couple things I think could have been managed better, but no event is perfect, so I'm not too concerned about it.

The only other problem, was that they kept running those gosh-darned robot matches while my students and I were trying to have our dance party. (Anyone in the stands on the blue bridge side of field might recall 263s proud and terrible dancing ;)) That, and I now have video evidence that I'm a really terrible dancer...

Overall, good stuff, I hope that the SBPLI event is just as fun.

Matt

[Doc Wu]

Can anyone involved (Inspectors, Queuing, Refs, etc.) tell me what happened to team 4023 at NYC? If necessary, contact me privately. I'm about 25 miles away and would like to know if they are in need of advice or assistance for next year. They have no website or contact information listed publicly.

Thanks.

[NickTosta]

*shrugs*

Well, we came close. I'm glad that I was able to put on a show, at least. I even got to do one of the wheelies on Saturday!


Wow, that last-second balance in Semi 1-2 was something! Score was 28-27 and Blue managed to double balance to win 28-47, literally at the last second...

Yeah, that was crazy. Absolutely crazy. I was shocked, and I was the one balancing!


I enjoyed the 195/333/369 second match strategy. Defense all the way.

Yeah, we figured that their whole process of balancing the bridge was both unstable and time-consuming. If our alliance partners could delay them for a minute or so they would either have to really rush and risk messing it all up, or simply wouldn't have enough time.


Obviously that didn't exactly work out....

Here's the video, thanks to trident for getting it up so quickly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfzwtQq3b0w&list=PLBAFC53E767A67773&index=1&feature=plpp_video

I have no idea what 333 was trying to do... it looks like they helped blue way more than they hurt them.

...Because 333 more or less died in finals 2 AND 3. I'm not entirely sure what happened to them, but I do know that something with their robot malfunctioned horribly in both matches. It probably had something to do with the vicious hits they were taking/giving.


Speaking of vicious hits, we're not sure when it happened or what caused it but at some point either during our second semi-final match or the first final match the potentiometer on our front-left swerve module came loose and caused our swerve module to malfunction (as in, it was virtually never in the correct location). As you can imagine, that made driving really, really fun.

The only reason we got flipped that match was because of that malfunctioning swerve module. I had extremely poor control over the robot, so I was totally unable to swerve or rotate out of the way. They just kept ramming and ramming us until they finally flipped us.

All that ramming they did messed the module up to the point where the pins holding the gear and motor in place got messed up, so what we ended up doing was cutting all of the power lines going to the motors on the swerve module (both the swerve and drive motors). This turned this wheel into something of a idler, so I had a little bit more control of the robot in the next two matches (it was still plenty of fun to drive though, believe me). You could also say we turned that front-left swerve module into a very very expensive caster wheel, a mode that we are now lovingly referring to as "shopping cart mode!"


In terms of our problems Friday and Saturday, it was mostly a mystery FMS issue that will likely never be solved. Basically, any time we ran the autonomous program where we backed up to the bridge, we would run that normally then we would have no control over the robot in teleop. The times where we started moving like a minute or minute and a half into the match? Those were matches where we REBOOTED THE C-RIO in the middle of the match so that we could control it.

Eventually we just ran our two-shot autonomous program and that seemed to "fix" the problem, I guess.

Oh, and we never really attempted any 3-point shots on saturday because of an issue with our shooter code, the code that automatically sets the shooter speed based on the height of the vision target. We did eventually get that working but we still had some issues with our auto-aligning code, so I ended up manually lining up the robot throughout the entire elimination bracket on Sunday. Luckily that auto-speed code worked perfectly after a few adjustments though.


I do have to have to say now, it was pretty neat to see 125, 522, and 1625's crazy balancing method up close, and I like how over the course of the elims they got better and better. They were definitely a strong alliance. That first time they pulled the triple balance I was looking from the sidelines like "HOW DID THIS EVEN HAPPEN?!" and to be honest I was pretty surprised that they counted it, but you guys rolled with it and made it work. Pretty neat to see.

__________________________________

So, all in all, I guess we can't complain about making it to the finals after starting Sunday in FIFTY-FOURTH PLACE. Again, I'm just glad that we were able to get everything working an put on a show for everybody.

[Megalodons333]

First and foremost Team 333 would like to congratulate teams 1635, 522, 125 on their fantastic play throughout this tournament. They showed unbelievable skill and consistency in balancing their robot time after time.

Secondly we want to thank our fantastic teammates team 195 and 369 for giving us the opportunity to play with them. Team 369s robot was unbelievable and could do practically anything they wanted, a great scorer, defender and with the help of 195 managed to balance with ease. Team 195 never seized to amaze, and was the "kobe" of our team. No other team in the competition could match the consistent scoring of this robot. It was truly a pleasure playing with and watching these two robots.

When it came to the final match our robot would move in bursts. We would have moments where the robot wouldn't get any communication and just stand there. It was truly frustrating and disappointing. It was even more disappointing that we felt we let our teammates down. Honestly I don't even think our robot had communication in autonomous mode. Our robot isn't as consistent as our teammates but we managed to make in shots in prior match-ups

Coming into the finals we figured we could afford fouling as long as we stopped that triple balance like we managed to do in match 2. 40 points is just a huge obstacle to over come.

Here's the video, thanks to trident for getting it up so quickly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfzwtQq3b0w&list=PLBAFC53E767A67773&index=1&feature=plpp_video

I have no idea what 333 was trying to do... it looks like they helped blue way more than they hurt them.

From the video if you look at our robot between the intervals of 1:30 - 1:50 you can just see our robot practically useless. We really weren't sure what the problem was, it could have been all the beating we took while playing defense in our prior matches. Even in match 2 we ended up with another robot on top of us for nearly the whole match.

Once we started moving we thought everything was working fine again and tried to resume our job at defense but by then it was almost too late because team 522 and 125 were almost in position. And once again as soon as we got there we lost connection. Frustrated we just tried moving our joystick up and down trying desperately to get it running again only to get 1 last second of burst which unfortunately put us underneath the bridge which ultimately helped our opposing team.

We do apologize for this and wish we knew exactly why our robot malfunctioned during the last match.


Thank you everyone who rooted for us and once again THANK YOU TEAM 369 AND 195. I pray we could have the opportunity to seeing you guys next year.

[Chi Meson]

Congratulations to Alliance #7, and especially the Wizards. I did not see the triple balance coming at this event, and the first time they pulled it off I was sure it was a fluke. But no, by the end it was elegant, and all three robots worked together perfectly. You all deserved it!

Now, about the Javits center: I hear it is slated for demolition.

May we help?

[AlexJamesCross]

Wow, that last-second balance in Semi 1-2 was something! Score was 28-27 and Blue managed to double balance to win 28-47, literally at the last second...

Lol I am on team 369 One of the teams that balanced and nearly had a heart attack

[AlexJamesCross]

First and foremost Team 333 would like to congratulate teams 1635, 522, 125 on their fantastic play throughout this tournament. They showed unbelievable skill and consistency in balancing their robot time after time.
Secondly we want to thank our fantastic teammates team 195 and 369 for giving us the opportunity to play with them. Team 369s robot was unbelievable and could do practically anything they wanted, a great scorer, defender and with the help of 195 managed to balance with ease. Team 195 never seized to amaze, and was the "kobe" of our team. No other team in the competition could match the consistent scoring of this robot. It was truly a pleasure playing with and watching these two robots.
When it came to the final match our robot would move in bursts. We would have moments where the robot wouldn't get any communication and just stand there. It was truly frustrating and disappointing. It was even more disappointing that we felt we let our teammates down. Honestly I don't even think our robot had communication in autonomous mode. Our robot isn't as consistent as our teammates but we managed to make in shots in prior match-ups
Coming into the finals we figured we could afford fouling as long as we stopped that triple balance like we managed to do in match 2. 40 points is just a huge obstacle to over come.
From the video if you look at our robot between the intervals of 1:30 - 1:50 you can just see our robot practically useless. We really weren't sure what the problem was, it could have been all the beating we took while playing defense in our prior matches. Even in match 2 we ended up with another robot on top of us for nearly the whole match.
Once we started moving we thought everything was working fine again and tried to resume our job at defense but by then it was almost too late because team 522 and 125 were almost in position. And once again as soon as we got there we lost connection. Frustrated we just tried moving our joystick up and down trying desperately to get it running again only to get 1 last second of burst which unfortunately put us underneath the bridge which ultimately helped our opposing team.
We do apologize for this and wish we knew exactly why our robot malfunctioned during the last match.
Thank you everyone who rooted for us and once again THANK YOU TEAM 369 AND 195. I pray we could have the opportunity to seeing you guys next year.
We, team 369 thank both team 333 and 195 for their support and amazing game play. And we understand that team 333 were having issues and you were still amazing in your defense and offense. Also in match two when you were interlocked with 1635 you ultimately kept 1635 far from the bridge and from performing the triple balance. We did not realize how far we would make it but with a great and irreplaceable alliance selection from our team captain we made it into the finals with 195 and 333 who we have to thank for helping us not go down without a fight!!!!!:)

[aditya29]

Congrats to 1635, 522, and 125 on the win. Those triple balances were incredible, and the atmosphere was electric as you guys attempted and completed it for the first time :) It was awesome that you were able to accomplish it time after time with such ease as well.

Elimination matches in general were really quite entertaining. Lots of scoring in hybrid and always a flurry of activity at the bridges - congrats to all teams really, this regional was great.

Still, I was a little disappointed to see my team come from CA and have comms issues in every match :( We tried various fixes, and had several other teams, mentors, and volunteers graciously take a look at our code/electronics to see if anything stuck out, but in the end, we still couldn't figure out what happened. Our symptoms sound similar to those experienced by several teams at other regionals (based on the Bayou thread), but it's hard to tell if the underlying cause is the same. (Also, apologies to 694 and 3059 for not living up to our/your expectations in QFs; if we had comms for the entirety of our match, I think our alliance would've had the chance to pull off something special).

All in all, thanks to NYC for being so welcoming. The team had a great time (especially since we got Dean Kamen to sign our robot/shirts/etc :D ), and we're looking forward to competing hard at SVR in a couple weeks!

[henryBsick]

Here is a clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLVzKXTGX7Q&feature=youtu.be) from the NUTRONS' GoPro showing the Finals 1-1 balance.

[jwfoss]

Congratulations to:
1635, 522, and our friends on 125 for using the unique combination of their robots designs to repeatably get the triple balance, ultimately resulting in the regional win.

333, 369, and our friends on 195 for making it to the finals after a long weekend of fixing and tuning in your machines.

The Aluminum Falcons could not have been happier with our performance in Qualification 8-0-0 and #1 seed with some good co-op balancing and offensive work. "Fat Swan" was running solid and required little to no repairs, and was connecting to the field quickly and for the entire match. We would like to thank everyone who played with us, and choose to balance on the center bridge with us.

We would like to thank and apologize to our amazing alliance partners 1676 and 329. Communication issues with the field (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1145997&postcount=42) (which I believe 1676 also suffered from), really took the wind out of our sails. After being eliminated in the semi-finals we spent the remaining time at NYC trouble shooting our robot, and are heading to CT with no clear solution. Without such problems we feel the results may have been significantly different. We wish you the best of luck the rest of your season.

[blazenight1]

Congrats to 1635, 125, and 522 for providing by far the most amazing set of elimination matches yet!!!!:D
Your methods proved successful with your partners on the seventh alliance by eliminating the second, third, and fourth alliances :yikes: on your way to capturing your third ny regional win!

But probably most importantly is that you showed all the teams competing there, all 11 rookies and 54 veterans (not including yourselves :p), that you didn't have to build a superstar robot that looks like it could compete in the NBA to succeed.

Over 99% of teams built a robot for mainly either offense or defense.
I'm glad you guys decided to be the exception.

It is truly refreshing to see an alliance win, not because of it's superstar captain's abilities (but credit is still appreciated;) ), but by a relatively simple robot that really any team could've built by themselves, without the need for some crazy sponsor or factory/warehouse of workers. Credit has to be given to the captain though, for recognizing the ability this team had managed to pack into their little robot :)

I look forward to seeing how you guys do at St. Louis!

[Jonathan Cheng]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P81VF...ature=youtu.be

[bradubv]

I am a mentor for 1635 and I wanted to thank you for the kind words in this thread and thank the 66 participating teams for making it a great event (and a lot of fun).

Our school's program had a reboot a couple a years ago so from a lot of perspectives we were practically a rookie team last year. We've learned a lot last season and continue to do so this year.

A special note of thanks to Team 3419, regional winners in Baltimore. They practiced balancing on the bridge with us during the build season, lent us a sensor for measuring the RPMs and helped us with some of our code.

And finally thanks to our alliance partners Teams 125 and 522. I don't think we would have done much better with the triple bridge balancing even if we had cooperated in the design stage.

[DonRotolo]

We would like to thank and apologize to our amazing alliance partners 1676 and 329. Communication issues with the field (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1145997&postcount=42) (which I believe 1676 also suffered from), really took the wind out of our sails.
We found that the communications latency for 1676 from the field was around 170 mSec (normal is <10 mSec), so at least we have a symptom to work against.

Our approach will be to verify that our cRio isn't overloaded, that the radio is not getting EMI and is away from all metal. If that does not fix it, we'll see what else we can do.

[Andrew Bates]

I took a picture of team 333 after they accepted their Finalist awards. I however did not get an email to send the picture too before I left. If you're from team 333 please PM an email to send the picture to.

[Banderoonies]

Thank you everyone who rooted for us and once again THANK YOU TEAM 369 AND 195. I pray we could have the opportunity to seeing you guys next year.[/QUOTE]


Team 195 Thanks both 333 and 369. It was an awesome ride with the both of you!

We also congratulate the winning alliance 1635, 522, 125. Their strategy with the triple balance was awesome!

[krudeboy51]

Hey guys take a look at this 1 sec double balance in semi-final 1-2 (I think I was pretty awesome): http://youtu.be/P_WWAOL_NDc

I thought we had lost that match.

[chenqingtian]

I'm the captain from team 1635,i want to thanks our alliance partners Teams 125 and 522, with out them, we can't make it happen, it is a team work, i have to thanks for my team members hard work on Scope, without there detail information we can't came up with the best Strategy to play the game. again we learn alot form all of u robot's idea. we want to thanks all 65 team for there well playing and i Hope we doing well in st louis too:]

[penguinfrk]

[R73] Compressed air on the Robot must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12V, 1.05 cfm flow rate, 120 psi maximum working pressure. Off-board compressors must be controlled and powered by the Robot.

What do you call a team which violates this rule during the finals and gets caught not once but twice? Champion! Go figure. :confused:

I assume that if they were found in violation in the rule, the situation would've been corrected before they got on the field. Could you describe the violation more thoroughly (and objectively)?

Otherwise, live up to your username.

[Ninja_Bait]

I have a feeling this thread is going to go downhill soon...

[lohke]

Has anyone else seen that the 2012 NYC Regional is on the front page of Popular Mechanics
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/robots/the-basketball-shooting-bots-of-first-robotics-nyc?click=pm_news#slide-1

[AlexJamesCross]

I have a feeling this thread is going to go downhill soon...

I have to disagree sir. This thread just stated that the rules may have been bent. There was report that 522 and their alliance were on the side rail as well but that was by someone in the crowd and i didn't see it for my self. Weather it is true or not is now behind us and i congratulate 522,125, and 1635 for their amazing win and their brilliant triple balance. If the rules were broken then I hope 522, us 369, 694 or any team that broke said rule would come forward in the views of gracious professionalism after all that is the whole view of first after all. So please don't insult any teams or posts on ChiefDelphi cause it is a forum and is ment to have people state their views.

[bodoggy]

As a mentor for team 1635 I would like to clear the air (no pun intended).
Team 522 had a legal on board compressor powered by the legal on board battery as per the rules, as I eyewitnessed it. After the first match in the quarter finals, they did use an external compressor to pressurize their on board storage tank in an innocent attempt to speed the process. They were duly warned by the judge that this procedure was not according to the rules and so the external compressor was removed from the building. Air pressure was provided for the matches by the on board compressor.

As for balancing on the bridge, the Arena Manual 2.2.5 The Bridges states "A Bridge will count as Balanced if it is within 5° of horizontal and all Robots touching it are fully supported by it." In addition, in the Game Manual 3.1 Rule (G11) states "Robots may not grab, grasp, grapple, or attach to any Arena structure. (Robots may push or react against any
elements of the Arena that is not protected by another rule.)"
The Robowizards bot was touching the side of the rail and thus was fully supported by the bridge and not in violation of any rules, so after careful review, the judges counted it as a balance. In contrast, in the very next match, part of 522's bumper was on top of the rail and the bridge was not deemed balanced, subsequently allowing the red alliance to win the match.

I just want to add my congratulations to the red alliance in the finals for providing a formidable opponent and great competition worthy of the mission of FIRST! Well done!

[jblay]

I think that there was nothing that alliance did which was not in the spirit of the rules and I am of the opinion that we shouldn't "lawyer the rules" in order to take credit away from that awesome alliance.

Also is there anyone here who doesn't think the off-board compressor rule is silly and really should not be enforced?
^
I disagree with my above statement now but feel like I should leave it or this thread becomes very confusing.

Just thought I would stir the pot a bit in the other direction.

[Dad1279]

I noticed the extension cord/2HP Ingersall -Rand compressor in use during the quarterfinals. I tried to point out the legality to the mentor on the field, but was dismissed. I then brought the situation to the attention of the Lead Robot Inspector, who tried to terminate it's use. I believe he was the first to bring it to the attention of the FTA and Head Referee, which also did not terminate the use of the compressor. It's use continued through the semi & quarterfinals.

This situation was questioned by the three student captains after a semifinal match (as per [T14]), and while the officials never returned a ruling to the students, the matches continued.

I have been in email contact with officials at FIRST, and received this reply: Per [G01], while a robot must be in compliance with all robot rules before being placed on the Court, there are no retroactive penalties assigned to matches already played if a robot is later found not to be in compliance with the rules.

While obviously not satisfied with that ruling, I would like to commend the students on teams 3017, 1796, and my team, 1279, for how well they handled the situation.

@ Madison - I'm sorry to see you deleted the posts. I was going to remain quiet on this subject, but can confirm the above posts, as simply as you as a moderator can confirm that I am not GraciousPro

@GraciousPro: Thank you for mustering enough bravery to say something about one of the two injustices at the NYC regional even if it was from a new ID.

@jblay: Silly rules? Really? What's the silly rule to break next, bag & tag?

[Madison]

@ Madison - I'm sorry to see you deleted the posts. I was going to remain quiet on this subject, but can confirm the above posts, as simply as you as a moderator can confirm that I am not GraciousPro

@GraciousPro: Thank you for mustering enough bravery to say something about one of the two injustices at the NYC regional even if it was from a new ID.


My tolerance for those who won't stand behind their accusations with the full force of their reputation is stretched very thin. I'm tired of people going after the good teams and people we have in FIRST while hiding behind an anonymous message board account.

I wasn't in NYC, so I can't speak to what happened there, but I appreciate that you are willing to talk about the subject without obscuring your identity.

I've asked other moderators to review my action and to research whether the GraciousPro account is in violation of forum rules -- the latter is not something I have the ability to do. They will act as they see fit.

[jblay]

To be clear I am taking issue with the off-board compressor requiring you not to have an on-board compressor and the off-board compressor having to be powered by the robot battery. If the compressor are the same specs why does it matter? Maybe I have a misunderstanding of the rule or the scenario.

[Marc P.]

To be clear I am taking issue with the off-board compressor requiring you not to have an on-board compressor and the off-board compressor having to be powered by the robot battery. If the compressor are the same specs why does it matter? Maybe I have a misunderstanding of the rule or the scenario.

As I understand the rule in question, the idea isn't that the specs between an on or off-board compressor are the same, but that the off-board compressor is governed by the control system. Pressurizing via the control system gives the cRio the ability to shut off the compressor once the electronic pressure switch indicates appropriate pressure has been reached.

Pressurizing manually with a non-controlled compressor opens the possibility of exceeding the legal storage pressure (even if only by a slight amount before the emergency relief valve pops).

[Dad1279]

To be clear I am taking issue with the off-board compressor requiring you not to have an on-board compressor and the off-board compressor having to be powered by the robot battery. If the compressor are the same specs why does it matter? Maybe I have a misunderstanding of the rule or the scenario.

Well, now all of the GP posts are gone, with it some of the facts. The compressor was a 120v commercial model, like the type used for nail & impact guns, certainly more powerful by orders of magnitude than the one in the KOP. I believe it was an Ingersol-Rand. No regulator, over-pressure safety, etc. I do not know if there was an additional compressor on board the robot.

Still a silly rule?

[Grim Tuesday]

To be clear I am taking issue with the off-board compressor requiring you not to have an on-board compressor and the off-board compressor having to be powered by the robot battery. If the compressor are the same specs why does it matter? Maybe I have a misunderstanding of the rule or the scenario.

The advantage this provides is that, if you have a Rookie compressor, you can burn it up running all match. Using another offboard one can alleviate this, if you pre-charge it from that one, so you aren't putting any more strain on it. Then it becomes a design choice: A 5 lb compressor that has a better duty cycle, or a 2.5 lb one that doesn't.

[AlexJamesCross]

To be clear I am taking issue with the off-board compressor requiring you not to have an on-board compressor and the off-board compressor having to be powered by the robot battery. If the compressor are the same specs why does it matter? Maybe I have a misunderstanding of the rule or the scenario.

I believe you are misunderstanding the situation their off board compressor had to be plugged into a wall outlet and did not need the same specs as the first approved compressor.

[harryji369]

As the Captain of team 369 we do know that things where done incorrectly during the finals matches but it does not matter. I find no reason for this excessive arguing over this rule it is already done and the competition is already over but I believe all of our alliance members enjoyed the matches and it wouldn't of been the same if the alliances where not whole.::rtm::

[jblay]

Ah it seems that I have indeed misunderstood the situation. I believe this is a result of not being able to read the deleted posts. I retract my statement entirely.

[NickTosta]

Without being able to view the deleted posts I'm not entirely sure what else is known or exactly what it is we are arguing about, but given that I was on the field the entire time I did see quite a few things.


1. The air compressor

At some point, possibly during the quarterfinals, I was standing behind one of the driver stations (I believe it was the alliance station below the scoreboard, I was waiting with our control board for the next match) when I saw a mentor or maybe a student from 522 (the RoboWizards) carrying an enormous air compressor around the field, presumably coming from the pits. At the time I knew that having an off-board air compressor was legal, so I didn't think much of it. I just kind of laughed to myself thinking "wow, they must have to keep A TON of air on-board to power that piston!"

At some point during the Semis I was standing right next to their robot, so I was able to get a good look at it. Most of the inside of their robot is dominated by an enormous air tank - this thing was like as wide as their robot and probably like 6 or 7 inches in diameter. Just an enormous black air tank. I remember asking them if that was really an air tank, and they said they needed that much air to power that huge piston on the front of their robot. I just remember shrugging it off thinking "wow, that's pretty neat, and that explains why they needed the huge air compressor."

So, basically, I can confirm that they did bring in some enormous 120v air compressor, but I am totally uncertain as to the extent that it was used.


2. The questionable balances

Once again, given that I was on the field the entire time I had an excellent view of everything that transpired.

The first balance in the quarterfinals the two long robots were on the bridge perfectly, but 522 was at that strange angle and appeared to be leaning on the side railing of the field. I was standing by the corner of the field near the robot entrance to the floor there, so I had a perfect view both of the balanced bridge, 522 leaning on the railing, and the refs inspecting the balance.

My opinion was that the bridge shouldn't have counted as balanced, as 522's bumper was up against the railing. However, I saw the refs touching 522s bumper and the railing and I think they may have thought that 522's robot wasn't actually being supported by the railing, merely that their robot had just come to rest near it. That is certainly a possibility and something I can't confirm or deny based only on that I saw it from a distance, but again, from my perspective on the floor there it looked like 522 was on the railing and the balance shouldn't have counted.

The other balance, where 522 fell off the bridge and 125 was on the railing, I don't think there is much confusion about that one. However, I can again confirm that I saw 125's bumper on top of the railing, and I would have been absolutely shocked if they counted that one.


3. GraciousPro posting from an anonymous account

Guys, sometimes (read: almost always) this community is unnecessarily hostile to an individual that wishes to express an unpopular opinion, or wants to raise a possibly valid point against a team that is generally held in high esteem. Now, because the posts have been deleted, I am unsure as to whether or not GraciousPro expressed his opinions in an unnecessarily angry or derogatory fashion. Obviously, if he did then I can understand the resistance against this anonymous account, and I would agree that the posts should be deleted depending on the severity. However, if he was merely bringing up the issue of the possibly illegal events that transpired at New York, and was doing so in a fair and level way, I don't see why it should matter that he chose to do so from an alternate account.

Again, because of the sometimes hostile response to any member "rocking the boat" so to speak, I can totally understand why he would choose to post from an alternate account. I don't think that posting from an anonymous account is a reason to discount what he is saying, though. In fact, I would argue that someone posting anonymously would be much, much more honest and open than someone posting with their real name and team name.

_______________________________________


Also, does anyone know what happened with that whole "technical timeout" called by the lead robot inspector? I am totally in the dark about what happened there.

[Ninja_Bait]

I have to disagree sir. This thread just stated that the rules may have been bent. There was report that 522 and their alliance were on the side rail as well but that was by someone in the crowd and i didn't see it for my self. Weather it is true or not is now behind us and i congratulate 522,125, and 1635 for their amazing win and their brilliant triple balance. If the rules were broken then I hope 522, us 369, 694 or any team that broke said rule would come forward in the views of gracious professionalism after all that is the whole view of first after all. So please don't insult any teams or posts on ChiefDelphi cause it is a forum and is ment to have people state their views.

My goal was to remind people that the typical result of an inflammatory post like GP's is poo-flinging and ALL CAPS POSTS. I'm glad to see that the situation was quelled by both Madison's moderating and everyone's acceptance of the situation as already past.

[coldfusion1279]

3. GraciousPro posting from an anonymous account

Guys, sometimes (read: almost always) this community is unnecessarily hostile to an individual that wishes to express an unpopular opinion, or wants to raise a possibly valid point against a team that is generally held in high esteem. Now, because the posts have been deleted, I am unsure as to whether or not GraciousPro expressed his opinions in an unnecessarily angry or derogatory fashion. Obviously, if he did then I can understand the resistance against this anonymous account, and I would agree that the posts should be deleted depending on the severity. However, if he was merely bringing up the issue of the possibly illegal events that transpired at New York, and was doing so in a fair and level way, I don't see why it should matter that he chose to do so from an alternate account.

Again, because of the sometimes hostile response to any member "rocking the boat" so to speak, I can totally understand why he would choose to post from an alternate account. I don't think that posting from an anonymous account is a reason to discount what he is saying, though. In fact, I would argue that someone posting anonymously would be much, much more honest and open than someone posting with their real name and team name.

_______________________________________


Also, does anyone know what happened with that whole "technical timeout" called by the lead robot inspector? I am totally in the dark about what happened there.

I have been following this thread since Sunday to see if these issues were brought up. I saw every one of GraciousPro's posts, and they were not hostile. Unfortunately, they made team 522 look bad, but the facts are the facts. This thread isn't an argument at all, it's a log of the unfortunate events from the regional, which nobody is arguing with. In fact, the only controversy here is caused by the deleted posts which now nobody can read. [FYI: most of the information provided by GraciousPro has now been reiterated by others in this thread, so you aren't missing anything. The reason they were deleted, as far as I can tell, is because the username is anonymous].

I was also on the field during the quarterfinal match with the questionable balance. I too saw the bumper leaning on the rail standing at the corner of the field in the RED 3 queue. Though, I was also excited that a triple balance happened. The atmosphere was electric, but IMHO, the call was incorrect and I think the atmosphere of the arena had something to do with it.

The technical time out was called so that the field admins could call FIRST to confer with them about the rules when our students brought up the question in an appropriate, polite manner.

The ungracious part was how our students were treated afterwards. They were ignored; their question never was answered, and matches resumed.

I would like to make it abundantly clear: The teams involved in the elimination matches aren't upset because we lost. The problem stems from the example that the volunteers set for our kids. It only takes one lack-luster attempt at conflict resolution like this one to poison the message that FIRST aims to send and curtail our students motivation before our next competition. The real tragedy in this whole debacle was that nobody attempted to explain the situation to our students, or even give an honest apology that the rules were not enforced as strictly as they should have been. The response we received from FIRST is quoted above in DAD1279's post.

[Madison]

To be clear, GraciousPro removed their remaining posts on their own. Given that their intention seems to be to remove everything they posted, the two posts that I hid will remain hidden.

[RoboTigers1796]

In the spirit of gracious professionalism and everything FIRST is supposed to stand for the number #3 alliance thought it was the right thing to do by bringing said situation to the attention of Head Referee,(who said he couldn’t do anything about it and we needed to find the Lead Robot Inspector on our own) Safety Advisor, and then Lead Robot Inspector. We feel it was unfair for 522, The Robowizards, to have an advantage over all the other robots in the building.
We became aware of the large compressor, who’s picture is attached below, when a member of our team accidently tripped over the extension cord running to the field while walking around the outskirts taking photos of the competition. Upon following the cords, we discovered it actually ran to the field directly connected to, and filling, 522’s robot. The compressor was set up just outside of the field divider curtain with power cords running along the floor plugged into a vacated Google Exhibitor Booth a few feet away from the arena.

Upon tripping, and bringing attention to the lines, a mentor from Team 1279 that was in the vicinity commented on the legality of the compressor to a 522 member on the field. He was greeted with harsh remarks including multiple expletives. The mentor then decided to digress from the escalation.
At that moment, we grabbed our rulebook, and brought the information to the attention of our drive coach as well as the alliance captain. What followed was a series of moral letdowns for the NYC regional, and FIRST as a whole. The Head Referee informed the alliance captain he couldn’t do anything about it, and we needed to find the Lead Robot Inspector on our own.

The lead Robot Inspector graciously rushed to the field with us to deal with the situation appropriately, but at that time the compressor was already removed from the side of the field. It is a shame that this same photographic evidence here, along with all the eyewitness accounts of the event, and a technical timeout to contact FIRST, resulted in no consequences, and the situation was almost brushed under the rug as matches carried on unaffected.
We also believe the students from the alliance handled the situation the best they could, but their professionalism went unanswered by those in a position of authority.

Considering we have to be so political on this site without the risk of being censored and frowned upon, this is Team 1796’s official account of the unfortunate series of events that unfolded at the NYC regional, written by the members directly involved.
Below is the picture of the compressor, presented to field officials, that was used to refill the tank on 522’s robot. There are more pictures but I feel only one is necessary. Above all else, the sheer size and power of this thing filling an FRC robot should have been a huge safety concern to everyone at the competition, and not brushed off as a silly rule.

It is a shame; this was the first regional for 25 of our 32 members on the team. And after speaking so highly of the respect, gracious professionalism, and honesty of the FIRST Robotics Competition, we were embarrassed to have to explain this situation as well as the lack of a resolution to all of our students.
Since FIRST’s stance on this is what’s done is done, Team 1796 will also move on; we can simply only hope similar situations will be handled more appropriately in the future. We are looking forward to SBPLI and seeing new friends, like 1279, there. With the hopes that you did not know what was happening on your alliance, huge congrats to 1635 and 125 for their win, the matches got pretty close and were very competitive. Best of luck in St. Louis.

http://i39.tinypic.com/s6m9s8.jpg

[Will_C640]

Wow all this happened at NYC? so much for GP , how about we all start breaking the rules now!:eek:

-1796, 1279 great way of shining light on this injustice, hopefully in other regional or years to come FIRST puts things in order so something like this does not happen again!:D

[jblay]---> Really silly rules? :mad:

[Tristan Lall]

It is a shame that this same photographic evidence here, along with all the eyewitness accounts of the event, and a technical timeout to contact FIRST, resulted in no consequences, and the situation was almost brushed under the rug as matches carried on unaffected.
Assuming that at least one official observed the offending compressor feeding the robot, there should have been plenty of grounds to act.

[R73] is abundantly clear: "Compressed air on the Robot must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12V, 1.05 cfm flow rate, 120 psi maximum working pressure. Off-board compressors must be controlled and powered by the Robot." Even though the rule is largely useless (if the pressure and composition of what's in the tanks is appropriate, all this rule does is impose a limitation and additional complexity regarding the way it's delivered), in this rare instance, with a huge tank, the ability of the off-robot compressor to operate continuously might have been meaningful as a design constraint. In that sense, this is the case where it's most important to enforce that rule strictly.

The head referee undoubtedly has the authority to enforce the rules during gameplay. Even if they didn't feel it appropriate to make the call before the match, if 522 placed their robot on the field containing air supplied by that compressor, the team was in violation of [R73]. The referee could then invoke [G01] at the start of the match, and disable 522. Having to sit quietly in the key during the finals ought to be punishment enough.

Indeed, the lead inspector might have had a more lenient option: to have the team dump the offending air and proceed to the match. But failure to comply with that would have been a more serious violation (of [T03], which would exclude 522 from the match entirely). And flouting of the inspector's ruling and playing anyway would have been a red card for the entire alliance.

So there were definitely a lot of ways to deal with the situation.

Above all else, the sheer size and power of this thing filling an FRC robot should have been a huge safety concern to everyone at the competition, and not brushed off as a silly rule.
The rule actually is a little bit silly. As for safety (not a silly issue), it can be dealt with ordinary precautions like FRC-compliant relief valves.

[Dad1279]

......
The rule actually is a little bit silly. As for safety (not a silly issue), it can be dealt with ordinary precautions like FRC-compliant relief valves.

I'm truly concerned with this attitude in the FIRST community. Some rules are there for safety, others are design constraints. Without climbing into the minds of the GDC, the reason behind an individual rule is unknown. However, teams are given the rulebook as a design constraint. This competition is often compared to a real-live engineering project. Don't design to the specifications, you won't get the job.

The second line of the FRC Inspection Checklist in the Pneumatics section: Compressor - Only one KOP compressor (or equivalent, max 1.05 CFM flow rate) may be used (on or off robot). <R73>

The bottom text of the FRC Inspection Checklist:
We, the Team Mentor and Team Captain, attest by our signing below, that our team’s robot was built after the 2012 Kickoff on January7, 2012 and in accordance with all of the 2012 FRC rules, including all Fabrication Schedule rules. We have conducted our own inspection and determined that our robot satisfies all of the 2012 FRC rules for robot design.


FIRST relies heavily on each team's own honor and moral compass to do what is right. It is up to a team's leaders (student or adult) to take a notification that they have broken a rule and turn it into a moment to demonstrate the principles of sportsmanship and fair play.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

I'm truly concerned with this attitude in the FIRST community. Some rules are there for safety, others are design constraints. Without climbing into the minds of the GDC, the reason behind an individual rule is unknown. However, teams are given the rulebook as a design constraint. This competition is often compared to a real-live engineering project. Don't design to the specifications, you won't get the job.

The second line of the FRC Inspection Checklist in the Pneumatics section: Compressor - Only one KOP compressor (or equivalent, max 1.05 CFM flow rate) may be used (on or off robot). <R73>

The bottom text of the FRC Inspection Checklist:
We, the Team Mentor and Team Captain, attest by our signing below, that our team’s robot was built after the 2012 Kickoff on January7, 2012 and in accordance with all of the 2012 FRC rules, including all Fabrication Schedule rules. We have conducted our own inspection and determined that our robot satisfies all of the 2012 FRC rules for robot design.


FIRST relies heavily on each team's own honor and moral compass to do what is right. It is up to a team's leaders (student or adult) to take a notification that they have broken a rule and turn it into a moment to demonstrate the principles of sportsmanship and fair play.
I wouldn't be so fast to throw Tristan under the bus. He made absolutely no mention of breaking the rule, but rather just of his opinion (that agrees with that of many) on this seemingly needless rule.

[Bill Tompkins]

This will be my only post, and I am only going to comment on the rules and the need to comply with them.

[R73] Compressed air on the Robot must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12V, 1.05 cfm flow rate, 120 psi maximum working pressure. Off-board compressors must be controlled and powered by the Robot.

• Whether or not anyone feels these are valid or needed rules they are in fact, the rules. Rules are put in place by FIRST for the safety of everyone and to keep the matches competitive. In NASCAR you could go faster and further with a bigger engine and fuel tank but it is against the rules. You are given a bunch of parts and set of restrains (rules). You are then asked to build a robot and compete in adherence of these rules. This is the game.

• Relief Valves (16-004-011) help prevent over-charging but too often these do not work probably and can be tampered with. As part of the robot’s inspection the safety Relief Valve is checked. However, it can be changed easily with a wrench. In addition, the Relief Valve does have limitations in its ability to release pressure. If you are adding pressure faster than the Relief Valve can release it then you have an explosion. A FIRST specification for on-board and off-board compressors is 1.05cfm. The picture of the compressor shown in this thread has 4 to 5 times that flow rate. The Relief Valve and pneumatics systems used in FRC are designed to safely operate at the 1.05 flow rate. Exceeding this could be dangerous.

• A feedback path to the robot is required in order to shut the compressor down when the pressure gets too high. The Pressure Switch (SM-2B-115R/443) is designed to electrically open at 115psi and close at 95psi. This is also checked at the robot inspection. However, without feedback to the off-board compressor the entire volume of the compressor could be dump into the robot at high pressure and rate.

• Pressure gages have been known to stick. They are mechanical in nature and sometimes malfunction. This is the reason for the secondary protection of the Pressure Switch and the Relief Valve and the need to have feedback to any off-board sources. Just visually watching an air gage and assuming the pressure reading is correct is inherently dangerous.

• Items not part of the KOP are required to be inspected for compliance to the rules and safety. If an off-board compressor not part of the KOP were to be used it should have been inspected, its operation demonstrated, noted on the inspection sheet and would become part of the BOM. It also becomes part of the maximum unit cost restriction.

Sorry, the second sentence should have read, "If a compressor not part of the KOP were to be used it should be inspected, its operation demonstrated, noted on the inspection sheet and would become part of the BOM. "

• When charging the air tanks the battery is drained. The larger the on-board air storage capacity the larger the drain on the battery and the longer it takes to charge the tank. This is a design consideration trade-off. You choose to have the added air capacity knowing your battery and air charge time will be inhibited. This is the reason why off-board compressors need to run of the robot’s battery. Not doing so gives a team an unfair advantage.

Answering a question in one of the responses, Yes, you do have the option of changing batteries between matches (assuming you have them available).

• The time periods between finals matches are timed. You have the option of using timeouts if additional time is required. If your robot cannot be serviced in this allowed time period then you just have to do the best you can. This goes for everything from broken wheels and chains to battery changes and air charging. The design trade-off mentioned above gives you more air to work with on the field but lengthens your air charging time. Given the short time period between finals matches you may not have the time to fully charge you tanks. However, supplementing this with an additional air source is a violation of the [R73].

• "Compressed air on the Robot must be provided by one and only one compressor". This part of the rule is pretty clear.

In closing, this “seemingly needless rule” is designed to keep things safe and competitive. We can debate (which I am not) whether breaking this and other rules gave a team an unfair advantage or whether they could have won without it. The fact is, having a secondary compressor on the field does violate the rules for all the reason mentioned above.

‘On the field’, the LRI reports to the FTA and the Head Referee about safety concerns and rules violations. If in question, the LRI could request a re-inspection of the Robot, gather materials needed to support a claim, request documentation of parts used, review the team’s BOM and check the team’s initial inspection report. When findings are complete the LRI then reports back to the FTA and Head Referee. In situations where a team has violated a rule or ruling multiple times the problem would probably be elevated to FIRST HQ. However in the end, the Head Referee has the last word on the field.

[Ninja_Bait]

But look, what if I am a particularly eco-friendly team? I want to use a hand pump to fill my tanks pre-match, though I have a KOP compressor onboard. I never fill my tanks above 120 psi, the system is completely legal otherwise (it has the release valve, is not above the max capacity of the compressor, etc.). In short, I have followed the spirit of the rules in staying equal to all other teams, but I have not followed the letter of the rules. Why should something like this be illegal?

[Dad1279]

But look, what if I am a particularly eco-friendly team? I want to use a hand pump to fill my tanks pre-match, though I have a KOP compressor onboard. I never fill my tanks above 120 psi, the system is completely legal otherwise (it has the release valve, is not above the max capacity of the compressor, etc.). In short, I have followed the spirit of the rules in staying equal to all other teams, but I have not followed the letter of the rules. Why should something like this be illegal?

Your eco-friendly team would ask for a clarification through the Q&A system: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/game-q-and-a ;)

[Bill Tompkins]

The full [R73] text:

[R73] Compressed air on the Robot must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12V, 1.05 cfm flow rate, 120 psi maximum working pressure. Off-board compressors must be controlled and powered by the Robot.

If an alternative compressor is used, the team may be required to provide documentation to show compliance with the performance specifications.

The only difference between an on- and off-board compressor is that the off-board compressor is physically removed from the Robot. The intent of this rule is to permit teams to take advantage of the weight savings associated with keeping the compressor off-board. However, using the compressor off-board of the Robot does NOT permit non-compliance with any other applicable rules.

The compressor may be mounted on the Robot, or it may be left off the Robot and used to pre-charge compressed air in the storage tanks prior to bringing the Robot onto the Court.

[RoboTigers1796]

Bill brings up some very eye-opening points.
I am highly disappointed to see some of the comments here. Although you may not be intentionally giving this opinion, those who are brushing it off as a silly rule, or looking for ways to justify it with ridiculous examples of manual air pumps- you are defending a robot that won while breaking clearly written rules, and then condoning them after the fact.
We need to remove our personal opinions on these rules, that haven't changed much in FRC for at least 4 years, and simply accept them as rules.
By saying this rule isn't a big deal, you are condoning illegal actions, that gave a team (that competed against most of you here!), an unfair advantage over your own robots.

If you really have an issue with a rule, write a carefully worded letter to FIRST after the season and argue your point for a change in rules the following year. NOT decide to take things into your own hands and decide the rule is dumb so carry on doing whatever you want to do anyway during an already announced FRC season.

Exactly as Dad has said, whether we like them or not, and if we stop trying to pretend we know the intention behind the GDC's decision for the rules they make, we are left with the clear cut realization that in order to fairly compete in FRC, we need to follow all of the restraints they lay out. Despite how much we may disagree with them.
For example, our team didn't LIKE the 8" bumper rule this year, but rules are rules and we complied.
I personally don't LIKE the rule that emphasizes that bumper numbers cant be broken up across an intake opening (how silly is that) but we complied to satisfy the restraints set forth by the GDC for the 2012 game.

What we want and what we like has nothing to do with this situation. The rules that are presented to you in life are just that, rules, and whether we like them or not we follow them or face the consequences. Regrettably in this situation, 522 chose to break the rules even after being informed, just in the rare case they didn't know, and were not faced with any consequences. In fact they were instead awarded for it, with a regional banner.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

I've gotten a few PMs questioning my integrity and the integrity of my team. Seriously? I was ready to let this thread go but now I think I'll chip in a bit more.

Here's the bottom line. Don't cheat. My team doesn't, nor should yours.

However, I believe we should encourage open discussion about the merit of these rules and whether they are actually helping to improve safety and experience for teams. There are obviously opinions on both sides, but a valid defense for the upkeep of a rule is NOT "this is the way it is, deal with it". This viewpoint is incredibly unscientific and hinders forward progress.

Questioning merit behind a rule does not condone breaking it. I don't know how people are confusing this.


By saying this rule isn't a big deal, you are condoning illegal actions, that gave a team (that competed against most of you here!), an unfair advantage over your own robots.

Wow, I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you had to do come up with this statement. This is completely illogical. You can ABSOLUTELY question a rule, and still follow it. How can you expect things to get better if people don't do this?


If you really have an issue with a rule, write a carefully worded letter to FIRST after the season and argue your point for a change in rules the following year. NOT decide to take things into your own hands and decide the rule is dumb so carry on doing whatever you want to do anyway during an already announced FRC season.

Once again, I don't think anyone who has expressed that they think the rule is silly has broken it. Don't accuse people of things.

[Tristan Lall]

This will be my only post, and I am only going to comment on the rules and the need to comply with them.

[R73] Compressed air on the Robot must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12V, 1.05 cfm flow rate, 120 psi maximum working pressure. Off-board compressors must be controlled and powered by the Robot.

• Whether or not anyone feels these are valid or needed rules they are in fact, the rules. Rules are put in place by FIRST for the safety of everyone and to keep the matches competitive. In NASCAR you could go faster and further with a bigger engine and fuel tank but it is against the rules. You are given a bunch of parts and set of restrains (rules). You are then asked to build a robot and compete in adherence of these rules. This is the game.

• Relief Valves (16-004-011) help prevent over-charging but too often these do not work probably and can be tampered with. As part of the robot’s inspection the safety Relief Valve is checked. However, it can be changed easily with a wrench. In addition, the Relief Valve does have limitations in its ability to release pressure. If you are adding pressure faster than the Relief Valve can release it then you have an explosion. A FIRST specification for on-board and off-board compressors is 1.05cfm. The picture of the compressor shown in this thread has 4 to 5 times that flow rate. The Relief Valve and pneumatics systems used in FRC are designed to safely operate at the 1.05 flow rate. Exceeding this could be dangerous.

• A feedback path to the robot is required in order to shut the compressor down when the pressure gets too high. The Pressure Switch (SM-2B-115R/443) is designed to electrically open at 115psi and close at 95psi. This is also checked at the robot inspection. However, without feedback to the off-board compressor the entire volume of the compressor could be dump into the robot at high pressure and rate.

• Pressure gages have been known to stick. They are mechanical in nature and sometimes malfunction. This is the reason for the secondary protection of the Pressure Switch and the Relief Valve and the need to have feedback to any off-board sources. Just visually watching an air gage and assuming the pressure reading is correct is inherently dangerous.

• Items not part of the KOP are required to be inspected for compliance to the rules and safety. If an off-board compressor not part of the KOP were to be used it should have been inspected, its operation demonstrated, noted on the inspection sheet and would become part of the BOM. It also becomes part of the maximum unit cost restriction.

• When charging the air tanks the battery is drained. The larger the on-board air storage capacity the larger the drain on the battery and the longer it takes to charge the tank. This is a design consideration trade-off. You choose to have the added air capacity knowing your battery and air charge time will be inhibited. This is the reason why off-board compressors need to run of the robot’s battery. Not doing so gives a team an unfair advantage.

• The time periods between finals matches are timed. You have the option of using timeouts if additional time is required. If your robot cannot be serviced in this allowed time period then you just have to do the best you can. This goes for everything from broken wheels and chains to battery changes and air charging. The design trade-off mentioned above gives you more air to work with on the field but lengthens your air charging time. Given the short time period between finals matches you may not have the time to fully charge you tanks. However, supplementing this with an additional air source is a violation of the [R73].

• "Compressed air on the Robot must be provided by one and only one compressor". This part of the rule is pretty clear.

In closing, this “seemingly needless rule” is designed to keep things safe and competitive. We can debate (which I am not) whether breaking this and other rules gave a team an unfair advantage or whether they could have won without it. The fact is, having a secondary compressor on the field does violate the rules for all the reason mentioned above.
While many of these things are substantially accurate, I think there is some question about the degree to which this is intended as a design constraint, the degree to which it merely functions as one, and the degree to which it is actually useful. Also, it isn't clear when FIRST is demanding something for safety reasons, and when they're doing it for competitive reasons (or the degree to which both considerations are represented).

As a design constraint, this is of limited effectiveness. After all, if you really wanted to, you could swap out spare tanks already pre-charged with the requisite quantity of pressurized air (from the KOP compressor) and overcome the delay. (If they're true spares, they don't violate the module rule. This assumes that stored air is not a robot part for the purposes of the rules.)

And to come to think of it, if you wanted to run a legal off-board compressor at a higher flow rate or pressure, the rules don't actually prohibit it. (Assume the robot on the field and at inspection is otherwise legal. If the air was provided by a device with the proper nominal specifications, it is legal—the restriction is not on the actual performance of the device at the time of filling.) So you could theoretically immerse the compressor in a bath of cold distilled water (properly protecting the intake, of course), operate it at 24 V (under robot control), and see what happens. Note also that during filling, the robot is neither competing nor being inspected, so it would be tough to argue that it must meet the robot rules at that moment.

In terms of battery capacity, an untold number of teams trivially overcome that by installing a fresh battery prior to every match, but after filling their tanks.

As for safety, that's a matter of pressure and flow. The flow is principally determined by the geometry of various components. While the compressor might be able to supply that much, what's the actual flow given the orifice sizes provided by a legal FRC on-board pneumatic system? Does that exceed what's safely releasable by the relief valve? (I realize that the inspectors are rarely in a position to determine these things exactly—and the rule effectively avoids dealing with that uncertainty. But that's different from a particular robot actually being unsafe.)

The valve we use (Norgren 16-004-011 (http://resources.norgren.com/document_resources/usa/16-004.pdf)) can release up to 5 scfm when set in the range dictated by FRC. That's in the ballpark of what that compressor is likely capable of (indeed it's probably less for continuous duty at high pressure like that). And even if the relief valve is misconfigured, the highest it can be set is 150 lb/in2—it will pop at that point.

In terms of pressure, with a typical industrial compressor, there's an adjustable relieving regulator built in (or at least a relief valve set for a high pressure). If present, this must fail or be set incorrectly for a safety issue to arise. Lacking the regulator, the system indeed depends on the robot's relief valve.

Lacking the relief valve (which should have been noticed at inspection), we're now depending on the strength of the components. As far as I know, all of the mandatory components on the high pressure side of the FRC pneumatic system are rated to around 250 lb/in2 to 300 lb/in2 working pressure at room temperature, and are designed with additional margin. And when they do fail, a true explosion is unlikely—more often a seam or tube will burst, venting the pressure. (And what's the likelihood that that compressor can hit 250 lb/in2, at any reasonable flow rate, and for a sustained period?) Team-supplied tanks, especially the PVC ones, may not have quite this margin of error—so in that case, maybe the issue of safety has more traction. (But let's not forget that this rule predates the introduction of PVC tanks into FRC, so probably wasn't intended to address them.)

As for the pressure gauges, they depend on having an operator to monitor them, and do (occasionally) fail in a way that is non-obvious to the operator. You wouldn't want to rely on a pressure gauge if it was the only thing keeping the system from going out of its safe limits.

Putting that all together, what's the most likely failure mode for truly unsafe operation using an illegal off-board compressor? A poorly equipped compressor (no regulator or built-in relief valve), an operator not paying attention or ignoring warning signs (or gauges missing entirely, and no clue about aural cues from compressor), a missing relief valve (or a very slow fill with the valve venting the whole way), and non-KOP components that fail unsafely at unusually low pressures. And then they have to do this without being noticed.

To me, that's too implausible to presume that the off-robot compressor rule exists as a meaningful safety measure.

Also, I would definitely call into question the idea that an industrial compressor (not present during matches) is a robot part subject to cost accounting restrictions. Is a battery charger subject to those same restrictions?

In summary, I think this rule is enforceable and valid, but doesn't do anything appreciable as a safety feature or as a limit on robot performance. That's why it's silly.

[Tristan Lall]

I've gotten a few PMs questioning my integrity and the integrity of my team. Seriously?
Seriously?

Bill brings up some very eye-opening points.
I am highly disappointed to see some of the comments here. Although you may not be intentionally giving this opinion, those who are brushing it off as a silly rule, or looking for ways to justify it with ridiculous examples of manual air pumps- you are defending a robot that won while breaking clearly written rules, and then condoning them after the fact.
We need to remove our personal opinions on these rules, that haven't changed much in FRC for at least 4 years, and simply accept them as rules.
By saying this rule isn't a big deal, you are condoning illegal actions, that gave a team (that competed against most of you here!), an unfair advantage over your own robots.

If you really have an issue with a rule, write a carefully worded letter to FIRST after the season and argue your point for a change in rules the following year. NOT decide to take things into your own hands and decide the rule is dumb so carry on doing whatever you want to do anyway during an already announced FRC season.

Exactly as Dad has said, whether we like them or not, and if we stop trying to pretend we know the intention behind the GDC's decision for the rules they make, we are left with the clear cut realization that in order to fairly compete in FRC, we need to follow all of the restraints they lay out. Despite how much we may disagree with them.
For example, our team didn't LIKE the 8" bumper rule this year, but rules are rules and we complied.
I personally don't LIKE the rule that emphasizes that bumper numbers cant be broken up across an intake opening (how silly is that) but we complied to satisfy the restraints set forth by the GDC for the 2012 game.

What we want and what we like has nothing to do with this situation. The rules that are presented to you in life are just that, rules, and whether we like them or not we follow them or face the consequences. Regrettably in this situation, 522 chose to break the rules even after being informed, just in the rare case they didn't know, and were not faced with any consequences. In fact they were instead awarded for it, with a regional banner.
Just like Tom said, I've got no special love for cheating. Quite the opposite, in fact, though I absolutely like creative solutions that go right to the edge of what's legal. But I think I was pretty clear: if these accounts of 522's actions are correct, they had no justification within the rules.

[Dad1279]

......
And to come to think of it, if you wanted to run a legal off-board compressor at a higher flow rate or pressure, the rules don't actually prohibit it. (Assume the robot on the field and at inspection is otherwise legal. If the air was provided by a device with the proper nominal specifications, it is legal—the restriction is not on the actual performance of the device at the time of filling.) So you could theoretically immerse the compressor in a bath of cold distilled water (properly protecting the intake, of course), operate it at 24 V (under robot control), and see what happens. Note also that during filling, the robot is neither competing nor being inspected, so it would be tough to argue that it must meet the robot rules at that moment.
.......

Interesting analysis, but I contend the rules actually would prohibit 24 volt operation:
[R73] Compressed air on the Robot must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12V, 1.05 cfm flow rate, 120 psi maximum working pressure. Off-board compressors must be controlled and powered by the Robot. If an alternative compressor is used, the team may be required to provide documentation to show compliance with the performance specifications. The only difference between an on- and off-board compressor is that the off-board compressor is physically removed from the Robot.
[R36]The only legal source of electrical energy for the Robot during the competition is one MK ES17-12 12VDC non-spillable lead acid battery, or one EnerSys NP 18-12 battery, as provided in the 2012 KOP. This is the only battery allowed on the Robot.


ie; Compressor must be powered by robot, 12V battery. I will, however, keep the water-cooling in mind if there ever is a water game....;)

[Tristan Lall]

Interesting analysis, but I contend the rules actually would prohibit 24 volt operation:
[R73] Compressed air on the Robot must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications may not exceed nominal 12V, 1.05 cfm flow rate, 120 psi maximum working pressure. Off-board compressors must be controlled and powered by the Robot. If an alternative compressor is used, the team may be required to provide documentation to show compliance with the performance specifications. The only difference between an on- and off-board compressor is that the off-board compressor is physically removed from the Robot.
[R36]The only legal source of electrical energy for the Robot during the competition is one MK ES17-12 12VDC non-spillable lead acid battery, or one EnerSys NP 18-12 battery, as provided in the 2012 KOP. This is the only battery allowed on the Robot.


ie; Compressor must be powered by robot, 12V battery. I will, however, keep the water-cooling in mind if there ever is a water game....;)
All I'm saying is that the rules can't reasonably be enforced against robots that are neither playing nor being inspected—otherwise all sorts of robots undergoing maintenance would be illegal. (That was sort of a crazy example of the implications of that stance—but even if a team was crazy enough to try it, it would make essentially no difference to the competition.)

[Dad1279]

And to come to think of it, if you wanted to run a legal off-board compressor at a higher flow rate or pressure, the rules don't actually prohibit it............

Again I believe the rules do prohibit it.

All I'm saying is that the rules can't reasonably be enforced against robots that are neither playing nor being inspected......

As long as we agree while rules can't be enforced, they can't be broken. It's a fine line....

After all, if you really wanted to, you could swap out spare tanks already pre-charged with the requisite quantity of pressurized air (from the KOP compressor) and overcome the delay. (If they're true spares, they don't violate the module rule.......................

...........Just like Tom said, I've got no special love for cheating. Quite the opposite, in fact, though I absolutely like creative solutions that go right to the edge of what's legal.

Swapping pre-charged tanks.....now that's a creative, and probably legal solution.....;)

[RoboTigers1796]

Tristan and Tom,
I apologize for your integrity being questioned. I assure you questioning either of yours integrity , 254 is an elite team and one I would never question.
My post was not directed at anyone in particular,in fact I intentionally attempted to generalize it as much as possible and speak hypothetically as to not implicate anyone while trying to make my point. Clearly, it was taken as the opposite; for that I apologize. My entire post was hypothetical, only questioning the ethics of the one team that I named, and anyone who stood to support their actions.



However, I believe we should encourage open discussion about the merit of these rules... "this is the way it is, deal with it". This viewpoint is incredibly unscientific and hinders forward progress.
I completely agree that anything in life you have the ability to change, and should change, if there is a better way to do it.
It was just this discussion was taking place in a thread where facts were being shared about a team that broke the rule and were not reprimanded for it.
From an outside perspective, the argument for the use of an over-powered off board compressors in this thread, seemed to be supporting the actions of 522 at the NYC regional, who chose to use one even though it was not legal this year. The transitory relationship was made by the huge situation that unfolded in NYC with the use of an off-board compressor, and this being the 2012 NYC regional thread discussing the events of that day.

That was the perspective I was seeing it from, and it was inappropriate in my eyes to be attempting to stand behind a team that cheated. You were simply taking advantage of the events to discuss the need for a specific rule, which there is absolutely nothing wrong with. I now see that was not your specific intention, as for the other poster's comments, I do not know.


Questioning merit behind a rule does not condone breaking it. I don't know how people are confusing this.
The only reason it was confused was for the reason stated above. That was the connection I was making to it, and not to speak for others, but possibly the way they were seeing it also.

Wow, I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you had to do come up with this statement. This is completely illogical. You can ABSOLUTELY question a rule, and still follow it. How can you expect things to get better if people don't do this?
The discussion of the importance of the rule in this specific thread could easily be mistaken as an attempt to defend the rule breaking.

For example, if a separate thread was created, "need for restrictions of off-board compressors" I would have viewed the discussion completely differently, and as you said, be open to discussing if it is really necessary to have so many restrictions on the refilling of storage tanks on the robot before a match. I admit, it is tedious in eliminations to rush off the field, tether, refill the tanks, and then get ready for the upcoming match. Admittedly, i probably would have partook in the discussion openly.


Once again, I don't think anyone who has expressed that they think the rule is silly has broken it. Don't accuse people of things.
Once again, only directed towards anyone that was posting here in an attempt to brush off the actions taken at the NYC regional.
I should have clarified more clearly so that you wouldn't get offended so quickly.

To conclude, I apologize to anyone who felt my post was directed at those who were simply trying to discuss the need for a specific rule; but I do not retract my statements for anyone attempting to defend 522's actions.
The discussion of the meaning and need for a rule should always be allowed and encouraged to continuously better the FIRST Robotics Competition.

In all honesty, I, and my entire team, has moved past the situation. We are not upset, or anything close to it. We simply wanted to support what others were saying as to the event actually happening, and we happened to have a first hand interaction with what occurred. Like I said in my original post, I fully congratulate the winning alliance and move forward with no bad taste in my mouth for anyone involved. We very much enjoyed our entire time at the NYC Regional, all the way up to cheering for the alliance that eliminated us throughout their finals matches.
I simply wanted to back-up my statements and partake in a casual conversation on what occurred.

[BigBlueTruck]

To all involved. Thus far, I have remained silent, sitting on the sidelines, watching this saga unfold. Sadly, this has turned into a true quagmire. They say, to every story there are two sides. Following the preceding postings, one would believe there are about 10 sides here. In any case, my purpose with this posting is to simply state facts, in the order in which the events unfolded. The team had made a conscious decision, to use an outboard air compressor, prior to each match to pre-pressurize the large air tank on the robot. Following PRESCEDENT, this procedure, has been very common in past competitions. As we are a small team with limited resources, we were unaware of the rules regarding outboard air compressors. Precedent was our guide. The robot was constructed, and a male “Lincoln” air fitting was installed, to allow quick and easy connection to the outboard air compressor. The decision to use an outboard unit, was made not to give the team an advantage on the field, but rather to preserve the small viair compressor. Going into competition, we were not aware that we were breaking any rules. As for safety, we did not see any trouble, as the large compressor has a regulator, as well as the prescribed 120PSI pop off valve on the robot. The pop off valve on the robot makes it virtually impossible to pressurize the primary side of the pneumatic system beyond the legal 120PSI. Furthering our belief that our system was legal, our robot passed inspection prior to competing. During the course of inspection, the robot inspector noticed the male “Lincoln” quick connect, and asked why we had it on the machine. I showed him the coil air line, and the large outboard compressor, and explained why we chose to use it. The response was positive, “ahh now I understand” “good idea” he said. At this point, it is understandable, why we had no inkling that we were breaking any rules. All was fine, until the quarter-finals, and this is where things went awry.
Initially, we brought several hand tools and the outboard compressor to the arena area, in preparation for the matches. After the first or second quarter-final match (I am not certain which), one of my adult team members, was approached by a very hostile sounding lead robot inspector Bill Tompkins. We were instructed to remove the compressor from the arena, and that it was illegal, to purge the system and that we must use the onboard compressor, to fill our tank. We immediately did ALL of the above, in the presence of Mr. Tompkins. Still, unaware of the actual rules, we were eager to comply, rather than jeopardize our stake in the finals. At that point, we followed what we considered to be “due diligence”, and removed the now disconnected external compressor to the pit area. (One must bear in mind, that this regional was taking place in the heart of New York City. There is no parking area nearby, our vehicles were a great distance away, and would have entailed a high monetary cost, to access the vehicles to load the compressor. By virtue of its location, the convenience factor in NYC, is low).
Lead robot inspector Tompkins, continued to harass the team, even though the offending compressor, was no longer anywhere near the robot, or playing field, where the robot had to remain for the duration of the final matches. When he got no satisfaction from the head referee, he continued on to the FTA, and beyond. It was evident at that point, that there was some determination here beyond the responsible discharge of his inspection duties. When he was unable to have the team disqualified for the air compressor, he directed his efforts toward our air tank. He demanded to see our BOM and the specifications on the COTS air tank we had chosen. We provided him, with the requested material, and showed that this was a standard tank, available from McMaster Carr.
Consequently, it was at that time, that I became aware of Mr. Tompkins affiliation with Cold Fusion, team #1279. As an aside, I cannot fathom, how a member of a team, may serve as a lead inspector at a regional, where his team is is a party with interest. This would appear as a potential “conflict of interest”. It was also evident by his actions that Mr. Tompkins was acting as an instigator, going from one official to another, looking for an audience.
Perhaps the most disturbing action, occurred after the matches concluded. Upon returning to our pit, to put away several tools, I found Mr. Tompkins with his cell phone camera, photographing the stored compressor. When my presence became known, he wheeled around; half surprised stating “I have photographic proof now ““You were told to remove this compressor from the arena”. When I attempted to explain that the pit was not the arena, and that we did “due diligence” to remove the offending compressor from the arena, He began to accuse me of lying to him twice, and that he did not like to be lied to. He also stated “ I just want you to know that your team CHEATED” “Now enjoy your win” This was unsettling, and egregious, as it is not only a question of my personal integrity, but of the integrity of the team as a whole.
Needless to say, the following five matches were played without use of the external compressor. All system air was supplied by F.I.R.S.T.’s specifications for onboard air. Not surprisingly, it had no effect on the performance of the robot, and therefore was proven NOT to have been a factor in the success of the robot.
I hope the preceding information, should give a clearer picture of what actually transpired, and possibly raise some very good questions, as to the driving force, behind the “smear” tactics that have been used against team 522.

[Lil' Lavery]

Following PRESCEDENT, this procedure, has been very common in past competitions. As we are a small team with limited resources, we were unaware of the rules regarding outboard air compressors.
So, because you're a "small team with limited resources" you don't read the rules?

The decision to use an outboard unit, was made not to give the team an advantage on the field, but rather to preserve the small viair compressor.
Preservation of vital robot components doesn't give you an advantage on the field?


Consequently, it was at that time, that I became aware of Mr. Tompkins affiliation with Cold Fusion, team #1279. As an aside, I cannot fathom, how a member of a team, may serve as a lead inspector at a regional, where his team is is a party with interest. This would appear as a potential “conflict of interest”. It was also evident by his actions that Mr. Tompkins was acting as an instigator, going from one official to another, looking for an audience.

And how is this any better than the "smear" tactics being used against your team?
Additionally, many key volunteers (including lead robot inspector, head ref, and FTA) often have affiliations with teams competing at events. I have yet to encounter any perceivable bias from them in my vantage point over the ten years I have been competing in FRC.

[EricH]

You know, there is one problem with using precedent as your guide in any FRC competition.

Every single rule may be rewritten either completely or partially every single year. Just because it was legal last year does not mean that it is legal this year. (And if something is illegal and slips through the cracks at one event, you can't assume it'll fly at another event where the inspectors may have sharper eyes or a better understanding of the rules or an update addressing some interpretations of rules.)

The moment that you assume something is legal because it was legal in a past year is the moment that you need to look very carefully at the current rules that could govern that particular item's legality.



Could the situation have been handled better? Yep. I can tell that just by the amount of barbed comments in this thread. Is all this complaining/personal attacks/outcry going to do anything? Uh, I don't think so! Particularly not this year; maybe for next year. (I don't count making unfriends as doing anything.)

[Megalodons333]

I personally didn't want to get involved in the negativity of this thread. While not trying to accuse anyone of cheating or unlawfully winning I just have to say the only thing i'm displeased with is the lack of knowledge of the rule.

As we are a small team with limited resources, we were unaware of the rules regarding outboard air compressors.

Many teams in this competition are in fact fairly small with limited resources. However the rule book was given freely to everyone and accessing it was as simple as being able to go on their site.

Although the addition of the air compressor proved to have no effect on the outcome of the matches, to blame it on ones magnitude of resources seems highly irrelevant seeing how everybody had access to the rule book. To that degree at least everyone had the same resources.

I completely understand that you didn't mean to violate any league rules, yet I can't say I understand how a team was so unprepared in not being able to catch up on the simplest aspect of the game.

With all that being said i truly apologize on all this going on yet at the same time respect everyone's opinion, and will continue to have an open mind as I read on.

[Tristan Lall]

The team had made a conscious decision, to use an outboard air compressor, prior to each match to pre-pressurize the large air tank on the robot. Following PRESCEDENT, this procedure, has been very common in past competitions. As we are a small team with limited resources, we were unaware of the rules regarding outboard air compressors. Precedent was our guide.
I think it's fair to say that your team erred in doing this. You're responsible for being aware of the current rules.

As for safety, we did not see any trouble, as the large compressor has a regulator, as well as the prescribed 120PSI pop off valve on the robot. The pop off valve on the robot makes it virtually impossible to pressurize the primary side of the pneumatic system beyond the legal 120PSI.
Your system doesn't sound unsafe per se.

Furthering our belief that our system was legal, our robot passed inspection prior to competing. During the course of inspection, the robot inspector noticed the male “Lincoln” quick connect, and asked why we had it on the machine. I showed him the coil air line, and the large outboard compressor, and explained why we chose to use it. The response was positive, “ahh now I understand” “good idea” he said.
And that was an inspector making a mistake.

We were instructed to remove the compressor from the arena, and that it was illegal, to purge the system and that we must use the onboard compressor, to fill our tank. We immediately did ALL of the above, in the presence of Mr. Tompkins. Still, unaware of the actual rules, we were eager to comply, rather than jeopardize our stake in the finals. At that point, we followed what we considered to be “due diligence”, and removed the now disconnected external compressor to the pit area.
Purging and only using the robot's own compressor for the remainder of the event was the right thing to do. As far as I read above, this solved your robot's legality problem, without forcing the officials to penalize you.

As for the compressor, it's not a benchtop tool, but I don't know that I'd call it a "[f]loor standing power tool" either. The latter are prohibited by FIRST and must be removed, but only as a venue rule—noncompliance does not directly jeopardize your participation in matches.

Lead robot inspector Tompkins, continued to harass the team, even though the offending compressor, was no longer anywhere near the robot, or playing field, where the robot had to remain for the duration of the final matches. When he got no satisfaction from the head referee, he continued on to the FTA, and beyond. It was evident at that point, that there was some determination here beyond the responsible discharge of his inspection duties. When he was unable to have the team disqualified for the air compressor, he directed his efforts toward our air tank. He demanded to see our BOM and the specifications on the COTS air tank we had chosen. We provided him, with the requested material, and showed that this was a standard tank, available from McMaster Carr.
I hope we can hear his perspective on whether this account is accurate. And despite his alleged motivations, the verification of the air tank is within his authority—and you seem to have handled it gracefully by providing documentation upon request.

Consequently, it was at that time, that I became aware of Mr. Tompkins affiliation with Cold Fusion, team #1279. As an aside, I cannot fathom, how a member of a team, may serve as a lead inspector at a regional, where his team is is a party with interest. This would appear as a potential “conflict of interest”. It was also evident by his actions that Mr. Tompkins was acting as an instigator, going from one official to another, looking for an audience.
It happens all the time. In fact, I've done it many times, as have many other inspectors at many events.

There are a few protocols in place. Firstly, key volunteers disclose their team affiliations and conflicts of interest to FIRST. They are required to commit to impartiality. Then, among inspectors, it is common (but not specifically mandated, last I checked) for a lead inspector with a conflict to designate an alternate inspector to handle matters relating to that team. That alternate is typically another well-qualified inspector, who would be comfortable making tough rulings against the LRI's own team, if necessary.1

In this case, apparently the LRI was involved with an opposing team. I wouldn't generally consider that a conflict of interest, because there's a degree of separation between his ruling about your robot, and whatever effect it might have on his team.

1 In fact, my designated alternate has made tough calls against my own team before, and I'm at peace with those rulings. That's the system working, because to any observer, there's no question that I stayed out of it, and thus did not manipulate the proceedings to my team's advantage.

[DonRotolo]

As we are a small team with limited resources, we were unaware of the rules regarding outboard air compressors.
That is no excuse. In fact, it paints your team in a negative light.
As an aside, I cannot fathom, how a member of a team, may serve as a lead inspector at a regional, where his team is is a party with interest. This would appear as a potential “conflict of interest”.We, the volunteers who keep competitions viable, graciously invite you to volunteer as a robot inspector (or in another capacity) at any event where your team is not competing. By doing this, you will help eliminate the need for any "conflict of interest". At the moment, there are simply not enough of us to go around.

Listen, what is done is done. The team made an honest mistake, I truly believe that there was no intentional breaking of any rules.

Please use this as a teachable moment for the team, students and mentors alike. Next time, make sure the rules are known and understood. The team might have a cloud over it for the moment, but a team as experienced and professional as yours will take this opportunity to grow into an even more awesome team, dissipating that cloud quickly.

Nobody likes their mistakes being thrown in their face. It is painful, I know from experience. Although my intent is to avoid any pain and any further pain, on behalf of everyone who may have caused offense I apologize for all excessive aggression towards anyone on the team.

While following the rules is very GP, so is the conscious avoidance of roasting someone who makes a mistake (other posters take note)

Don

[Bharat Nain]

I am closing this thread for now and will re-open it tomorrow. Let's take some time to cool off.

[Bharat Nain]

I am opening this thread with the hope that everyone involved has had some time to reflect and speak constructively.

[coldfusion1279]

My belief is that it should remain closed forever, since personal attacks and accusations of collusion with FIRST volunteers have been brought into the thread.

Thanks for monitoring, Bharat.

[mom1155]

ASME article on the NYC Regional is posted at:
http://www.asme.org/kb/news---articles/articles/student-competitions/first-brings-march-madness-to-robotics

[iNiLz]

No need to dwell on the past when we can learn from our mistakes and move on. What's done is done.
That being said, team 1230 and I had an amazing time at the NYC Regional and we wish the teams competing at other regionals the best of luck! We look forward to seeing teams competing at the Long Island Regional!