Good vs. Great Drive Teams

[pandamonium]

I am really looking forward to this years game but would like to pose a question. What do you think in the past has made the difference between good drivers and great drivers? What skills or qualities made these drivers so awesome? Practice, natural born talent, a combination of many things? I am interested to get some feedback on this.

[Taylor]

Disclaimer: I have not been part of a "great" drive team, but I've watched many of them.

Practice would come second only to a complete and thorough knowledge and understanding of the game's rules. Knowing one's robot's capabilities, and how they can work within the structure of the game with the other two robots on the alliance, creates a "great" drive team.

[plnyyanks]

I think practice has an enormous influence on driving skill. I think, with enough practice, just about anyone can be made into a quality driver. Of course, there are some inherent skills that greatly aid this process (focus abilities, hand/eye coordination, etc).

[mr.roboto2826]

Disclaimer: I have not been part of a "great" drive team, but I've watched many of them.

Practice would come second only to a complete and thorough knowledge and understanding of the game's rules. Knowing one's robot's capabilities, and how they can work within the structure of the game with the other two robots on the alliance, creates a "great" drive team.
Rules are very important! As a drive team member myself, its also important for all the members on the field to be on the same page. Knowing the robot and its extents is also a very important part of driving. For there are many elements that make a good drive team.

[EricH]

The drive team acting like one person with 4 hands and two* minds.

*This allows the driver and operator to focus on the robot and the coach to focus on everything else, like where the next ring is going to go.

The human player is not included in this because their role changes by year--some years the drive team needs to act like one person with 6 hands, 2 feet, and 3 minds.

[Rizner]

Multiple competitions -- those who are in their second competition have worked out many of the bugs during the first. Also, if they played in eliminations in a previous competition, the team can be calmer, and also play at the higher level during the entire second competition.

[LeelandS]

There are a few things that, to me, make a great driver.

1 - As said before, practice. Practice and experience are two of the greatest things a driver can have. Knowing how to really work the robot is different from just driving it. As monkey can pick up a controller and push some buttons and make the robot move. A driver who has practiced the with the robot, who knows how it really work, can make all the difference. It doesn't matter how good a robot you build; if a driver can't effectively work with it, it might as well just sit there. And that required practice.

2 - Maturity. Being mature is another key component of being a great driver. There is a reason children don't get licensed to drive on the roads. To be great, a driver needs to really appreciate his role on the team, and the weight he is carrying on his shoulders. He can't just be a kid who picks up a controller and plays a game. Don't get me wrong, having fun is one of the major goals of FRC, but a driver needs to know that when that match starts, he need to be ready to play, and he needs to respect the robot he has control of. Another thing that is kind of connected to that, is a driver needs to be able to stay calm under pressure. Even the greatest drivers will make rookie mistakes if they lose their head in a match.

3 - The third thing, and just as important as the others, is being a good team player. A driver with a big ego will not succeed, because they will end up going off in a match and doing what they thing is best. A great driver has to be able to work well with both the coach and operator. Not only that, but they need to have a connection with them that allows them to effectively operate as a single unit, as opposed to three people doing three separate jobs.

I hope this helps! Feel free to ask if you have any questions!
-Leeland

[Nemo]

I think it is really important to know how to carry out effective, constructive, respectful dialogue with the other alliances. We had the opportunity to work with some great drive teams who were especially good at that.

I also think positive chemistry within the drive team is important.

[Akash Rastogi]

The Coach.

[Josh Drake]

One thing that we did last year was to create a robot that was easier for the students to operate. The use of X-Box controllers allowed the two students that spent time playing games to pick up on the controls easily. Also the use of different sensors on the robot allowed us to take some of the guesswork away from the drive team and make their job easier.

So I would say the robot they are driving has something to do with it too.
Great drive system=great drive team?

[pandamonium]

Some great feed back already! I thought for sure someone was going to say building 2 robots but I guess that fits into the practice aspect.

[mr.roboto2826]

One thing that we did last year was to create a robot that was easier for the students to operate. The use of X-Box controllers allowed the two students that spent time playing games to pick up on the controls easily. Also the use of different sensors on the robot allowed us to take some of the guesswork away from the drive team and make their job easier.

So I would say the robot they are driving has something to do with it too.
Great drive system=great drive team?
Easy to drive does not necessarily mean a good drive team. A good drive team will adapt to any robot given to them no matter the game or controls. But yes this is somewhat true in that it takes some of the load off the drivers. I myself was a driver for three years, its best to let the drivers pick what they want to use, and not just use something that you think will work for them.

[JesseK]

1.) Tenacity of the drivers. They can't give up, regardless of how things are going in a match.

2.) Clarity of the coach. He/She should know the rules, the entirety of the robot, and be able to articulate specifics of the strategy in very concise terms.

3.) Practice. Don't leave home without it.

[Brandon Holley]

I'll say practice, but viewed through the lens of experience. Practice with the robot will help the drivers become skilled at driving. Working as a team with the coach (and to a lesser extent the human players) in actual game situations will create better drive teams.

The coach has a huge responsibility as well. The coach needs to be able to control the entire team's situation. This doesn't mean making discreet commands to the driver regarding the robot, but to have a firm grasp of the situation the entire team is in at any given point.

I also believe that a keen scouting ability gives a drive team a leg up. This allows the drivers to asses situations when a scout team may not be present. We all know the best game plans can tend to go awry. If they do, having some quick thinkers who understand their teammates and opponents capabilities could be the difference.

-Brando

[Peter Matteson]

1.) Understanding of the rules. If you don't score high enough on the test you don't even get to try out

2.) Natural ability, some things no mater how much you practice you will just never get. The ability to drive just as well going forward or backward is one of those things. Another is being able to see where the gaps will be to cross the field like a great running back.

2A.) Great arm drivers are born not made. I don't understand why this is but every arm driver tryout I've ever seen it was pretty much unanimous who the best was, and they only got better with practice.

4.) Desire to succeed and never give up. Coming in 2nd in tryout 2 or 3 years in a row and still trying out working to get better? You've got the tenacity we want.

4.) Reliable robot. If the robot never works right you will never learn to drive it right and always be compensating for something.

5.) Be unflapable in the face of adversity. In the case a motor stops working or a mechanism breaks can they adapt the strategy to what they still have to work with.

6.) Takes direction from field coach and sticks to the plan. If you don't take direction you won't last long because we come up with strategy for a reason.

7.) Understanding the strategy of the game to prepare for each round knowing your opponents and what you must do to beat them.

8.) Trouble shooting. They must be able to fix the small issues that can come up with the field and setting up the robot while communicating with the refs and FTA if needed.

9.) Communication with the pit crew. If you can't describe or tell the pit crew about problems that you have with the robot they can't get fixed.

10.) Practice without all of the above, is moot.

[Peyton Yeung]

I myself was a driver for three years, its best to let the drivers pick what they want to use, and not just use something that you think will work for them.
I totally agree. This past year was my first year as the primary driver and I got to create the driver station and setup for our machine. The controls were very intuitive because I had the ability to select what controls I wanted.

PS: I think the difference between good and great is just in the details. (Almost) Anyone can operate a robot but it's the great ones that spend hours refining their skills and abilities. Also trying to be innovative helps. We learned it was much more efficient to hang our tubes in a backwards orientation rather than turning around every time.

[R1ffSurf3r]

confidence not arrogance

[Mike Starke]

Obviously, the more practice you can get the better anyone will perform.
But...

I was on drive team for two years back in 2006-2007. And something that I noticed between the two years is that the most qualified people were not on the drive team, including myself. However, what in my opinion was more important, is that we worked EXTREMELY well together. We had each others backs and we never second guessed each others decesions to what they did on the field. We were team players.
A bickering drive team, who may be more "qualified", will be less effective than that of a team who can effectively drive (may not be the best on the team) but who is a people person and can work well with others.

There have been several kids on our team who have expressed an interest in driving the robot, but factors such as, a hot temper, and not working well with others, hurts their chance at the drive team. Think about alliances and working with other teams- those 4 people on your drive team are sometimes the only image of your team that other people get.

So I think there's a balance between the most qualified people- and people that will work well together, and drive as a TEAM.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I agree with most of what has been said so far.

Rules: Very important.

Practice: Very important.

The dedication to spend hours sitting in front of a blank TV with your Playstation controller pretending you are driving: Priceless. :)

Back to the subject, I read somewhere that drivers/operators are born, not made, and I half agree with that. I'm not saying no one can be a driver because of skill. Skill is something you can usually obtain through lots of practice, but then again we all can practice. What I agree with is that some people have certain qualities that make them better candidates than the others. Working well with others, being graciously professional, and working with an alliance using scouting info are all examples of quality traits that need to be present in a driver. The only problem is, not everyone has those traits. Driver qualities are not something that can be learned. You can practice with the robot all you want, but that won't make you a better communicator with your team.

My final words: While everyone can be a driver, not everyone should.

[theprgramerdude]

In my experience, unless the arena is at a moderate volume (read: never), the captain rarely can do anything to easily communicate with the two drivers unless they were wearing headsets with noise-cancelling headphones (idea?).

The two drivers on a good drive team work well together, and most importantly, work well under the pressure of only two minutes of performance. OK drivers can move the robot smoothly, but lose sight of the whole arena easily when focusing on getting good control and motion of the robot to it's destination. Good drivers should be able to do this and be capable of analyzing the game at the same time.

Great drive teams, in my opinion, are essentially made of three people: two are the good drivers. The third is the robot software. Humans are great analysts at controlling robots, and learn smooth movements extremely fast, but their reaction time and precision can easily be beat by the Crio commanding certain executions with input from sensors located on the robot. In this way, the two drivers are really the captains of the machine, and the Crio drives. Results may vary when in a transition from good to great. There's going to be a hard limit on what a person can do while driving; if you want a better machine driver, just throw on more technology and better code.

[plnyyanks]

In my experience, unless the arena is at a moderate volume (read: never)...

Because of this, when we practice, we usually do so while blasting really loud music right behind the drivers. Our drivers say it's a great help to learn to tune out loud noises before the competition.

[theprgramerdude]

Because of this, when we practice, we usually do so while blasting really loud music right behind the drivers. Our drivers say it's a great help to learn to tune out loud noises before the competition.

Smart idea; do they then manage to understand the captain through the volume at competition, or is it still hopeless?

[GCentola]

Smart idea; do they then manage to understand the captain through the volume at competition, or is it still hopeless?

We did the same thing. It got us used to tuning out the music, and it gave me an idea of how loud I have to be as a coach. Definitely not hopeless!! And it made practice more fun!

[Katie_UPS]

Smart idea; do they then manage to understand the captain through the volume at competition, or is it still hopeless?

Having been both a driver and a coach, I know that good voice control and a plan before-hand works. I don't remember any matches where I couldn't hear my coach/my drivers told me they couldn't hear me.

Maybe add that skill to the list:
Ability to tune out unnecessary noise and tune in to their coach.

[Chris is me]

Smart idea; do they then manage to understand the captain through the volume at competition, or is it still hopeless?

They better. The coach better project. Yell is probably the wrong word, as it's not a talk down necessarily but it sounds a lot like that.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Because of this, when we practice, we usually do so while blasting really loud music right behind the drivers. Our drivers say it's a great help to learn to tune out loud noises before the competition.

I like it! Though we sometimes practice in the school's library, so I don't think the librarians would like it if we "blasted music". :\

[plnyyanks]

Smart idea; do they then manage to understand the captain through the volume at competition, or is it still hopeless?

Not being a driver myself, I can't say from experience, but our drivers have said that practising with music helps a lot. I would assume that they just get good at yelling really loudly, which makes it less hopeless. But every little edge counts...

[thefro526]

They better. The coach better project. Yell is probably the wrong word, as it's not a talk down necessarily but it sounds a lot like that.

For me it depends on the driver. If they can take and prefer my yelling, I yell. If they'd rather me talk in a strong voice and closer to their ear, I do that. Some people don't respond to yelling under pressure and you can shoot yourself in the foot.

One thing I've found my self doing a lot more of is pointing. When I point, I make sure to put my hand as close to the glass as possible so that the driver can see where I'm pointing without looking out of the way.

[ks_mumupsi]

After coaching for 3 years and seeing how having 2 coaches in the same season impacts the team.. I have a few things to add

im surprised this hasnt been mentioned yet or maybe i just missed it.
consistency in language.... if your drive team thinks you are saying something and you mean something different thats tough. You need ot build that communication during practice. You need to focus on the small details in practice. If you say arm up/down or in-out it can mean different things to different people. Getting clear communication across the team is very important.

I think the second thing is the driver and operator need to understand each other without having to talk. There is not enough time to communicate what you need to be doing on the field, it needs to be intuitive.

Third is the control system.. We focused this year on building as intuitive a control system for the operator as possible, so that it was never a question for the operator of how high/low the arm needed to be or so.

Alot of the other things everyone has mentioned already. I will add to practice, practice against other robots, we try to run a previous years bot playing defense and the current years robot to get the drivers used to have other robots and obstacles on the field. That unknown variable of not knowing what the other team will do is very important in practice. practice in ideal settings doesnt help too much. This is why teams get better as competitions progress they start building an idea of what the other team will likely do.

hopefully that helps..

[Andrew Lawrence]

While I say over 70% of the robot performance is driver skill, I say about the other 30% is about robot design. While more advanced robots won't make the drivers better, they will surely allow for easier control and less needed input from the drivers.

For example, imagine driving one of the advanced 2009 robots without the carious traction control algorithms teams programmed. Or if your team used vision to track the targets on top of the goals for targeted shots in 2010, it would be a lot easier to have your robot use its sensors to align itself, and use the distance away from the target to change the kicking power to ensure that every time you press the fire button, you get a for sure shot in the goal.

Smarter robots make a more fluid driving experience and make your robot, overall, more effective.

[IndySam]

The one thing I don't see mentioned here is passion.

A good driver must have passion for the game and the sport. This is the most important thing I look for in a driver, second is dedication.

[Andrew Lawrence]

The one thing I don't see mentioned here is passion.

A good driver must have passion for the game and the sport. This is the most important thing I look for in a driver, second only to dedication.

I second that. "Passion for the game and the sport." Love it! :D

[apalrd]

Or if your team used vision to track the targets on top of the goals for targeted shots in 2010, it would be a lot easier to have your robot use its sensors to align itself, and use the distance away from the target to change the kicking power to ensure that every time you press the fire button, you get a for sure shot in the goal.

We looked at vision in 2009, 2010, and 2011. All three times, we looked far enough to decide we didn't like it:

-In 2009, we had so many issues with CPU load of using the camera that we just gave up because we had other problems to solve. By the end of the season, our Hotbot design didn't even have a turret or camera, and the problem became irrelevant.

-In 2010, we were still having lag issues, and it was hard to get a fast enough PID loop as the sensor was so slow. We supplemented it with a gyro, but eventually gave up because the driver was so much faster at alignment. And our operator got good enough (With a linearization algorithm for the kicker power) to set the kick distance correctly.

-In 2011, we gave up on the Axis cam almost immediately, once again due to lag, but attempted some tracking with the CMUcam from the 2005 KOP (the same one in the 2006 and 2007 KOP's). We got it at a decent framerate (I think we got something like 15 fps), but it was still slower than a driver so we saved the weight and complexity of making it work and just practiced more.

That said, we do all kinds of automation on the elevator system, handling state-transition and control loops to offload driver work. That kind of automation is great, as it can do something a driver can already do faster, but fixing something that is impossible to drive or doing vision tasks because they show you how in the default code isn't usually a good thing.

[Andrew Lawrence]

We looked at vision in 2009, 2010, and 2011. All three times, we looked far enough to decide we didn't like it:

-In 2009, we had so many issues with CPU load of using the camera that we just gave up because we had other problems to solve. By the end of the season, our Hotbot design didn't even have a turret or camera, and the problem became irrelevant.

-In 2010, we were still having lag issues, and it was hard to get a fast enough PID loop as the sensor was so slow. We supplemented it with a gyro, but eventually gave up because the driver was so much faster at alignment. And our operator got good enough (With a linearization algorithm for the kicker power) to set the kick distance correctly.

-In 2011, we gave up on the Axis cam almost immediately, once again due to lag, but attempted some tracking with the CMUcam from the 2005 KOP (the same one in the 2006 and 2007 KOP's). We got it at a decent framerate (I think we got something like 15 fps), but it was still slower than a driver so we saved the weight and complexity of making it work and just practiced more.

That said, we do all kinds of automation on the elevator system, handling state-transition and control loops to offload driver work. That kind of automation is great, as it can do something a driver can already do faster, but fixing something that is impossible to drive or doing vision tasks because they show you how in the default code isn't usually a good thing.

Well, never actually using the axis camera yet, I have to say thanks for telling me that! I was gonna try to use it this year. I've seen other teams successfully using vision. How do they do it?

[apalrd]

Well, never actually using the axis camera yet, I have to say thanks for telling me that! I was gonna try to use it this year. I've seen other teams successfully using vision. How do they do it?

I don't know.

We haven't found a pressing need to use vision since 2006 and 2007, where it was easy to use and didn't add a huge processing requirement.

[smurfgirl]

The most important aspect of a drive team that will make them successful is by far the amount of practice time they get. A great drive team has drivers that instinctively know how to do anything with their robot, without thinking about it. A great drive team acts as a set of four hands which get commands from one brain (the coach). It takes a lot of practice to make this happen. The more closely you can simulate a competition, the better - practice with loud music on, with old robots on the field (bonus - you also can get multiple people practice at once this way), and invite other teams over to practice with you if you can. Once operating the robot and strategy decisions become natural, your team will perform a lot better overall.

[MysterE]

I think this is one of the training areas that I am the most unsure of. How do you train a Drive Coach - or better yet - how can you train yourself to be the Drive Coach.

[Chris is me]

I think this is one of the training areas that I am the most unsure of. How do you train a Drive Coach - or better yet - how can you train yourself to be the Drive Coach.

Practice makes perfect!

A good candidate for a drive coach is a natural leader - they already have some of the key skills needed. After that, it's all about practice and experience, which takes awhile but will help tremendously.

[plnyyanks]

Practice makes perfect!


Ditto. Watch lots of match videos, remember the type of game strategy you designed your robot to do, and practice as much as you humanly can.

[Ninja_Bait]

Practice makes perfect!

A good candidate for a drive coach is a natural leader - they already have some of the key skills needed. After that, it's all about practice and experience, which takes awhile but will help tremendously.

Practice driving, too, so you know what you're talking about when you're not the one on the sticks.

[Chris is me]

Practice driving, too, so you know what you're talking about when you're not the one on the sticks.

Fun fact: It is impossible to get me to voluntarily give up the controls to our 2011 robot. :)

[Gdeaver]

The one most critical trait that I look for in a driver is situational awareness. Most drivers have a terrible case of myopia when it comes to driving in a FIRST competition. Let me try to explain. Most first games are highly dynamic and with 6 bots on the floor it tends to be very chaotic. The large majority of drivers I have worked with tend to lock on to their robot, the field piece and the chosen action they perceive to be the next choice for action. They do not perceive the rest of the field and the dynamic actions that are taking place. They are locked onto the current action and can not see or disconnect to take advantage of another opportunity that has suddenly presented it's self on the field outside of their narrowed field of vision. Then every once in awhile there is that one individual who has this perceptual brain functionality. Many times they are written off by the team because other drive candidates have better control finesse. Practice can make any individual a good driver from a control perspective. Situational awareness - I believe you are born that way. The real problem is that the dynamics that happen at a real competition can not be duplicated while practicing at home. We have tried having a second bot on the floor to play PITA to the primary bot. It doesn't come close to the real thing. Off season comps are are great time to search for this elusive person.

[Andrew Lawrence]

The one most critical trait that I look for in a driver is situational awareness...

I read this as situational awesomeness. :p

[Drivencrazy]

The one most critical trait that I look for in a driver is situational awareness.

In my opinion it would be the coaches responsibility to have this situational awareness and it would be more important for the driver to have a cool head and the ability to execute maneuvers. I think the coach should be the one to pay attention to the field and give the driver instructions. If you have your driver look for scoring opportunities while also trying to do something else with the robot you will get mediocre results on both fronts.

Find a coach that knows the game, your strategy, and your robot's capabilities. And as far as the driver goes, practice practice practice. There is nothing that can make up for drive time. A driver with a good robot and a lot of practice can easily keep pace with a better robot and a driver with little practice.