Questions about 80/20

[Glitch_94]

Okay, So my team is thinking about using 80/20 for our robot this year and wanted to know how other teams felt about using it. Was it easier than C channel and angle? Is it good to order a kit from the site or design our robot and order it? Any suggestions would be awesome! Thanks!

[Tetraman]

Pro: Very easy to build with
Con: HEAVY AS ELEPHANTS

174 uses 80/20 for our initial robot designs or for the parts we need to be super sturdy. We build up one robot with the 80/20, getting all the tweaks out and seeing in real life what we have designed. But once we have that all set, we build a second robot, with the 80/20 swapped with O, C and L channel when appropriate and weld the channel together to save on additional fasteners. It takes away so much weight while still keeping to the size of the 80/20. However, I don't think we could ever do what we do with the O, C and L channel without using 80/20 first.

Is 80/20 easier than C channel? Yes. Is it better? ehhhhhh....

My personal suggestion would be to get enough to test out on a chassis or a tower for an arm, and then decide later how you wish to go about using it more or less. I would definitely suggest at least giving it a good try. But if you already do well with C channel and don't have extra cash to burn, I'd suggest stay with what works.

[Chris is me]

I'd prefer to use Kitbot rail than 80/20 in most applications. 80/20 does have that linear guide stuff, though, which does work.

[ttldomination]

We've been using 8020 for years, and it's definitely easy.

Building is a snap. You just throw together what you need/want. This can be both a blessing and a curse.

But here are some tips:

(1) 8020 is easy, but it's no substitute for good design habits. Be sure to still CAD and prototype like you would regularly.

(2) 8020 is heavy, but the trade off between weight and ease of use is worth it to some teams.

(3) It's a pain in the butt to drill holes in 8020, especially ones that are off the longitudinal axis.

(4) Don't be afraid to go out of the 8020 product line for various solutions. One particular case being linear motion. Find a solution you like, and then interface it into 8020.


As far as ordering is concerned, really try and order what you need. Obviously, you'll need long bars. I think our teams order it in tens of feet at a time. Other things are screws, drop in, slide ins, angle gussets, box gussets, flat gussets.

Don't be afraid to go looking into the 8020 catalog. They have some neat solutions in there, and over the years, you're sure to develop a nice storage room full of parts. But keep suggestion (4) in mind.

For the past 2 years, I've been trying to convince my team to move out of 8020 because of its weight and because how lazy it has made our team. But it's just so darn easy.

- Sunny G.

[FrankJ]

80/20 is great stuff. It comes in different sizes. So you can use the smaller size for less weight. Also useful for prototyping especially if you do not have a welder. :) You can build bullet proof structures with it.

I would suggest getting in contact with your local distributor and seeing if they will give you a show & tell on how it works. They could also help with what you should order as well.

[Dale]

We, too, have been using 80/20 for years. We have moved away from it for our competition robots preferring 80/20's other product Quickframe because of it's lighter weight. 80/20 is fantastic for fairly simple robots like BunnyBots (http://www.oregonfirst.org/events/bunnybot/bunnybot-2011/)where the weight isn't as much of a problem or as a real-world alternative to CAD. Our students can throw a robot together in 80/20 very quickly to try out different ideas before committing to the more labor intensive Quickframe.

I'd say a Quickframe robot takes about three times longer to build than an 80/20 one.

[jwfoss]

As someone who previously tried to avoid 80/20 (T-slot style) at all costs, being on a new team with limited resources meant trying to use more COTS items. To be honest, for the amount of time it took us to assemble our lift (frc2168) this year I couldn't be happier. We even ended up using the 80/20 and associated linear slides for our minibot deployment. As a side note, spray lithium made the lift operature much better than it did "dry".

My Suggestions:
For your chassis - Stick with kitframe. Its free, and great for what it does. Built correctly a kitframe will out perform 80%+ of other robots

For superstrutures - For COTS linear motion its hard to beat, but for most other things it turns out to be really heavy (0.5lbs/foot for the 1"x1"). Look into using square stock and gussets or the 80/20 quickframe.

Note that other companies make comparable products to 80/20 such as Bosch extrusion, However 80/20 seems to have a larger selection of accessories.

[Ninja_Bait]

It's also good for prototyping things that need to be adjustable, when you want to be able to experiment a little with dimensions.

However, it's designed to be adjustable. Sometimes things will start to slip or get knocked out of position. Try to avoid that, either by drilling holes or switching to extrusion or combining 80-20 with other systems that are fixed in place.

[EOC]

Team 1208 has used it for 8 years. We have no machine shop and find it easy to work with. I gave a short talk on it at a recent FRC training camp. The hand out is attached.

[Taylor]

If you can find a local reseller with an agent who is willing to come spend a day with your team to optimize exactly what 8020 products you need, that is a day very well spent.

[gblake]

...
Con: HEAVY AS ELEPHANTS
...

Big Grin

Remove some of the weight and expense by making your own brackets to use a corners and other fastener locations. The 80/20 folks charge a ton for their simple, thick hunks of aluminum with a few holes drilled into them (the brackets).

[Chris is me]

Big Grin

Remove some of the weight and expense by making your own brackets to use a corners and other fastener locations. The 80/20 folks charge a ton for their simple, thick hunks of aluminum with a few holes drilled into them (the brackets).

This does help quite a bit, especially if you take advantage of the end tap on each piece of extrusion, but it's still going to be heavier.

[jspatz1]

The decision to use 80/20 depends a great deal on what fabrication resources you have. If you do not have access to the tools and shop resources to fabricate a more custom design from raw mateials, then it can be a great shortcut for some teams to achieve what they could not do otherwise. It is definitely NOT the most weight efficient approach, and is very expensive. All things being equal, for a team that has the means to fabricate whatever they want, it is not the most efficient or graceful method. It was designed to save time and labor in industrial machines and frameworks where weight was not a consideration. We do not use it because we are blessed with good fabrication capabilties, but for a team working from a garage with a hand drill, it can be a lifesaver.

[thefro526]

We used 80/20 on our elevator in 2008. It worked well for what it was and wasn't too hard to assemble. All in all, 80/20 isn't bad if you don't have access to better machining resources but it's definitely not the best option.


Con: HEAVY AS ELEPHANTS


^ Thanks, I needed a laugh. (It is really heavy.)

[Tetraman]

We used 80/20 on our elevator in 2008. It worked well for what it was and wasn't too hard to assemble. All in all, 80/20 isn't bad if you don't have access to better machining resources but it's definitely not the best option.

174 had an 80/20 elevator in 2005. Slipping the 80/20 bars between each other to create a "track" is a very cleaver way of using it, and worked out really well for that design.

^ Thanks, I needed a laugh. (It is really heavy.)


You're welcome. :D

[jreuter]

1073 has used an 80/20 chassis for at least 5 years, mostly for the speed of assembly, and ability to add on and adjust brackets & structure as we go. It's great to have on hand to prototpye other mechanisms because you can put something together in a day. Unfortunately we often run out of time, and the heavy prototype sometime remains on the competition robot.

I recommend that you:
- estimate the material list and place an order in December
If you wait until design is finalized, you will waste time waiting for delivery (send me a message if you want to see our typical order list)
- don't forget to ask for discount from your local distributor
- order a variety of fastener types.
3382 single plates
3280 double plates
3376 drop ins (expensive, but worth it so you don't have to disassemble the frame to add a new bracket
3381 butterfly
you don't need to use their machine screws, but it can be convenient
- make sure to get good, clean 90 degree cuts - we use a chop saw with a small diameter metal cutting blade, or do a rough cut with a band saw and face the ends on the mill.
- brace corners and tighten regularly during competitions, or things will slip

[jreuter]

1073 has used an 80/20 chassis for at least 5 years, mostly for the speed of assembly, and ability to add on and adjust brackets & structure as we go. It's great to have on hand to prototpye other mechanisms because you can put something together in a day. Unfortunately we sometimes run out of time, and the heavy prototype remains on the competition robot.

I recommend that you:
- estimate your material list and place an order in December
If you wait until design is finalized, you will waste time waiting for delivery (send me a message if you want to see our typical order list)
- don't forget to ask for discounts from your local distributor
- order a variety of fastener types, and get lots of spares
3382 single plates
3280 double plates
3376 roll ins (expensive, but worth it so you don't have to disassemble the frame to add a new bracket
3381 butterfly
Variety of machine screws
- make sure to get good, clean 90 degree cuts - we use a chop saw with a small diameter metal cutting blade, or do a rough cut with a band saw and face the ends on the mill.

[kinganu123]

Just wanted to throw in that 80/20 is cheap, relatively speaking.
The hardware, however, isn't, so:
1. Use your hardware wisely
2. Don't cheap out and make your own ghetto hardware, the end result doesn't tend to be as pretty and effective


*Our team has been using 80/20 for two years now, going onto its 3rd*

[IndySam]

80/20 is invaluable for prototyping, we use it for this purpose every year. An investment in connectors will last many years they can be used over and over.

It is also great for adding late modifications to your robot. Every year at least a little bit finds it way onto our competition robot.