[EWCP]-11-27-11 Drivetrain Design

[Akash Rastogi]

The next EWCPCast will be about how FRC drivetrains have evolved over the years, including the change after the inception of AndyMark and the kit chassis. We will discuss decision making for drivetrains as well as the evolution of drivetrains in FIRST.

We have arranged for Aren Hill (1625 alum, 3928 mentor), Ranjit Chahal AKA R.C. (1323), Adam Heard (973) to join us for this cast. We are still waiting on a few others to confirm their availability.

Our very special guest will be the man, the myth, the legend who invented swerve/crab drive in FRC, Dr. Joe Johnson (former 47 mentor, 3958 mentor).

Once again we are asking for your input, what should we ask our panel of distinguished guests?

The cast will be the usual time on Sunday November 27th (9pm EST) at the usual place. Hope to see you there. We will post links and other documents as we develop them with the panel of guests and as you all post your questions here.

Please present questions in a coded or bullet list.

And, as always, if you have an idea for a cast or would like to help us in any way please contact us here via PM, at our Facebook page.

[rsisk]

It would be nice to know what a typical strategy design session was like pre AM days, how much strategy went into the drivetrain
Also would be nice to hear Dr. Joe's thoughts about how he would have designed for 09 Lunacy

[jwfoss]

I'd like to hear some discussion of the following:


Materials selection for chassis construction
Choosing the "right" wheels (size and type)
COTS vs. Custom (chassis, transmissions, wheels)
Single speed vs. Multi-speed Drivetrains
Gearing limitations (speed, power consumption)
Building within your means
Knowing your "customers"
Innovations and new ideas
and, if possible...

An intelligent debate on the omnidirectional/mecanum vs. traction based drives

[thefro526]

and, if possible...

An intelligent debate on the omnidirectional/mecanum vs. traction based drives


I will ensure that we spend about 15 minutes or so discussing this topic.

(sweet, 2000th post)

[Taylor]

I will ensure that we spend about 15 minutes or so discussing this topic.

(sweet, 2000th post)

Good, because I'm curious what Picone thinks of mecanum. He's such a shy fella. (congrats on 2K)

If he's available, I think it would be cool if Ether joined in this cast.

I'd also like to hear how teams determine a suitable weight for their drivetrain - if it's a hard number (i.e. no more than 60 lbs no matter what) or a percentage of their overall estimated design weight.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Good, because I'm curious what Picone thinks of mecanum. He's such a shy fella. (congrats on 2K)

If he's available, I think it would be cool if Ether joined in this cast.

I'd also like to hear how teams determine a suitable weight for their drivetrain - if it's a hard number (i.e. no more than 60 lbs no matter what) or a percentage of their overall estimated design weight.

We are concerned about the number of panelists in this cast. We are constrained by time because we have found that longer casts general dissuade people from listening because not all of it is relevant to their interests.


I will work on a solution so that we can talk about the pros and cons of every drive system in some form or another. One idea is to prerecorded discussions about the major systems (6+ wheel skid steer, crab, H, kiwi, mecanum, hybrids) with experts and posting them as EWCPShorts or something. If you have any ideas feel free to PM me.

[JohnSchneider]

How can you do a drivetrain presentation without JVN of 148? I mean 148 won worlds with a non-skid drivetrain, which in itself is impressive if you look at history - but on top of that they invented 9 wheel drive and helped spearhead the new articulating drive method. 148 and JVN work with IFI who designed and makes the most popular traction wheels available. I'm not trying to put them on a pedestal, but I feel like having them in the discussion would be beneficial.

[IKE]

I would love a brief discussion on NBDs. If for no other reason than to remind the new folks about the whitepaper out there.

Also, a drivetrain discussion probably should include a mention of "The Kit-Bot on Steriods". (http://www.simbotics.org/media/videos/2011/presentations/kitbot-presentation-kitbot-steroids) Simbots do such a great job with their resources, and a few really good teams in Michigan have apparently taken this to heart and have been doing quite well with the philosophy. With so many great COTS components available today, Custom is only better if your goal is to be custom, or you develop it into a "better" solution which is a lot of resource. If your goal is on field performance remember, Unicorns are best left for fables and tall tales. Thoroughbreds require a lot of work and excellent breeding to truly perform. Camels, Mules, and elephants have historically gotten the job done.

[Andrew Schreiber]

JVN, don't take this the wrong way, just listing some of the giants whose shoulders we all stand on now. If you'd be interested in joining us for a cast post Kickoff (we are pretty well booked through then) let one of us know and we would love to put something together.

How can you do a drivetrain presentation without JVN of 148? I mean 148 won worlds with a non-skid drivetrain, which in itself is impressive if you look at history - but on top of that they invented 9 wheel drive and helped spearhead the new articulating drive method. 148 and JVN work with IFI who designed and makes the most popular traction wheels available. I'm not trying to put them on a pedestal, but I feel like having them in the discussion would be beneficial.

148 was not the first team to win with a non-skid drivetrain. 111 won in 2003 with a crab drive and StangPS. 67 won in 2005 with a 3 wheel flopping swerve which was all sorts of crazy. And as far as talking about swerve style drives, we have the father of swerve, Dr Joe Johnson who was with 47 when they pioneered steered wheel systems back in the late 90's.

Articulating drives predated JVN, in fact, they were often used for shifting before the dog-gear style shifters appeared. In fact I seem to recall the predecessors to octanum and the ilk showing up on CD in 2006/2007.

Plus, John has spoken about FRC drive systems in the past, he's pretty open about it. We are trying to bring in people who don't usually talk to most teams and encourage them to share their knowledge. (Oh, and Andy Baker but we couldn't pass up him since he is sort of a personal hero to all of us)

While I do agree that JVN is an incredible engineer, I am really proud of the group we've put together for this cast and I think they will provide fresh content to the community. I hope he and the other experts don't take this as a snub that we aren't inviting them to join, we just have a limit to the number of people we can bring in at any one time.

[Andrew Lawrence]

YAY! Drivetrains! My favorite subject!

Some interesting topics to be spoken about:

-Wheel size, including the advantages/disadvantages of each size, and the best use for each sized wheel.
-Andymark's new Pneumatic tires, the possible applications for that, and what kinds of drives could use it.
-Mecanum vs. Swerve vs. 6WD
-4 wheeled swerve vs. 6 wheeled swerve
-Gearboxes, Which is best for which job, and the new worm gearbox
-Time spent on drive train in beginning of build season, how much time should teams spend on their drive train to get it moving, etc.
-Brake vs. Coast vs. 1 motor break and 1 motor coast
-Cantilevered vs. not
-The standard kitbot vs. The Kitbot on Steroids vs. "other" drives
-Drives that can switch between traction and mecanum wheels

And many more things that I don't have the time to write down.

Can't wait for this cast!

[thefro526]

After Discussion between Andrew and I, we've come up with what we think is the best way to approach this cast.

~15 Minutes talking with Dr. Joe about the History of FRC Drives.
~15 Minutes talking with Aren Hill, Dr. Joe and Adam about Swerve Drives (Arguably the most advanced drive in FRC)
~15 Minutes talking with those on the call about 'standard' FRC drives - Dropped Center 6WD's and 8WD's.
~15 Minutes talking about the advantages of an omni-directional drive vs a standard skid steer and the inverse.

The Rest of the time will be spent discussing good practices for FRC Drive Design. What wheels to use where & when, what speed to gear for, appropriate offset, wheel size vs. obstacles, proper material utilization etc. (Many of the questions asked in this thread should be answered here).

From there, Andrew and I will be doing 15 minute mini-casts with a few different guests as we find them to go more in depth on various drive types - if there is interest in these mini-casts. (Drive types being Mecanum, Killough, Kiwi, Octocanum, 4WD, etc.)

Thoughts?

[MattC9]

Could some one please go in depth on chain tesioning? And different methods to do so? PLEASE

[sdcantrell56]

How can you do a drivetrain presentation without JVN of 148? I mean 148 won worlds with a non-skid drivetrain, which in itself is impressive if you look at history - but on top of that they invented 9 wheel drive and helped spearhead the new articulating drive method. 148 and JVN work with IFI who designed and makes the most popular traction wheels available. I'm not trying to put them on a pedestal, but I feel like having them in the discussion would be beneficial.

I wish I could find a facepalm picture real quick but unfortunately can't. I don't even know where to begin to start with responding to this though...yikes!

[Starke]

The next EWCPCast will be about how FRC drivetrains have evolved over the years, including the change after the inception of AndyMark and the kit chassis. We will discuss decision making for drivetrains as well as the evolution of drivetrains in FIRST.


FRC Designs would be willing to be included in the discussion if you would like additional comments on the history of FRC drivetrain designs. This is certainly a great topic of discussion. I look forward to hearing/participating in the discussion!

[ttldomination]

I wish I could find a facepalm picture real quick but unfortunately can't. I don't even know where to begin to start with responding to this though...yikes!

Got you covered bud.

http://static02.mediaite.com/geekosystem/uploads/2011/04/picard_doublefacepalm.gif

- Sunny G.

[sdcantrell56]

Got you covered bud.

http://static02.mediaite.com/geekosystem/uploads/2011/04/picard_doublefacepalm.gif

- Sunny G.

You are a scholar and a gentleman!

[Madison]

Not sure what that exchange offers to this discussion. Perhaps a better use of the space would be to explain why you think the comment deserves a facepalm?

[sdcantrell56]

Perhaps if I felt like dignifying that response with an actual one I would have. I certainly appreciate the incite though...

[Madison]

How can you do a drivetrain presentation without JVN of 148? I mean 148 won worlds with a non-skid drivetrain, which in itself is impressive if you look at history - but on top of that they invented 9 wheel drive and helped spearhead the new articulating drive method. 148 and JVN work with IFI who designed and makes the most popular traction wheels available. I'm not trying to put them on a pedestal, but I feel like having them in the discussion would be beneficial.

As others have already mentioned, John's done a lot of great things to advance the art of effective drive design. The IFI product line is top notch and offers a lot to FIRST teams and his design calculator spreadsheet is a tremendous asset -- maybe the best thing he's ever done, as far as I'm concerned.

The nonadrive is cool, though articulating drives have been around for ages and have seen all sorts of uses. Those that spring to mind immediately include 157 in 1999, 810 in 2002, and 358 in 2003, but finding pictures of any of those might be impossible these days. I'm sure there've been a lot more.

Back in the day, we couldn't just log onto the internet and mail order a bunch of awesome gearboxes and wheels. We barely even had an internet, actually. The consequence was that teams operated in far more of a vacuum than they do now and there was a much greater variety of robot designs -- for better and for worse.

Hindsight is 20/20, of course, and I wish that we would've had the foresight to better document the earlier years of FIRST robots. There was a lot of awesome work going on -- teams were more closely aligned with their sponsors in those times -- and a lot of really interesting designs saw the spotlight.

[XaulZan11]

~15 Minutes talking about the advantages of an omni-directional drive vs a standard skid steer and the inverse.


Good luck editing the hours of video of mecanum driving circles around traction drive to just 15 minutes! ;)

I like the idea of having a main show and then mini-shows more more indepth on spefic drivetrains for those interested.

[Andy Baker]

Many of us have learned tons from Dr. Joe over the years, and it is very exciting to see him back as an FRC mentor. Having him on this cast as a guest is outstanding. I would like to hear his answers to these things:

1. What was the design process for (arguably) the best FRC robot ever, ChiefDelphi's 2000 robot?
2. Why did ChiefDelphi choose to design (arguably) the most complex, convoluted drive train in 2001?

I'll have my popcorn ready, listening for "what to do" and "what not to do".

Andy B.

[LeelandS]

Some big names associated with some big drive systems are coming onto the next show; notably, people partially behind the original Swerve, 6-Wheel Swerve and Emperor Swerve. As a general question not specific to those 3 systems, I'd like to know some of the process that went into designing a new drive system.

I don't want to make the question much more specific than that, as I don't want to limit the scope of the discussion, but here are a few things I'd specifically like to hear about:

What pushed you to want to make a new drive system?
What went into the design process?
Did you treat it like any other system a team would never have done before (prototype in pre-season, iterate until acceptable for the season)?
This one is actually more for Dr.Joe, just out of personal curiosity: How does it make you feel that a system you had a major hand in has evolved into one that has been not only been used succesfully by some big name teams, but iterated into so many different variations?


Can't wait for this cast! If only if was a day before (11-26 :) )

[~Cory~]

I would like to hear some discussion on how much to drop the center wheel west coast drives.


And a quick question: I just started listening to these. Has a shown been done on control for each drive? E.g. tank with joysticks vs. steering wheel w/ throttle? Straight drive vs field orientated?

[thefro526]

I would like to hear some discussion on how much to drop the center wheel west coast drives.

And a quick question: I just started listening to these. Has a shown been done on control for each drive? E.g. tank with joysticks vs. steering wheel w/ throttle? Straight drive vs field orientated?

Center drop is center drop, whether or not it's a WCD or a standard drive. What really matters is CoG, wheel configuration, and desired point of rotation. We will go into this more during the cast.

We haven't done a controls cast yet, I'm sure we'll get into some brief controls discussion in the next cast, and if we're not specific enough, I'm sure we can revisit the subject at a later date.

[Andrew Schreiber]

We haven't done a controls cast yet, I'm sure we'll get into some brief controls discussion in the next cast, and if we're not specific enough, I'm sure we can revisit the subject at a later date.

I'll add that to our list of microcasts... finally, something I'm qualified to talk on.

[Karthik]

I would love a brief discussion on NBDs. If for no other reason than to remind the new folks about the whitepaper out there.

Also, a drivetrain discussion probably should include a mention of "The Kit-Bot on Steriods". (http://www.simbotics.org/media/videos/2011/presentations/kitbot-presentation-kitbot-steroids) Simbots do such a great job with their resources, and a few really good teams in Michigan have apparently taken this to heart and have been doing quite well with the philosophy. With so many great COTS components available today, Custom is only better if your goal is to be custom, or you develop it into a "better" solution which is a lot of resource. If your goal is on field performance remember, Unicorns are best left for fables and tall tales. Thoroughbreds require a lot of work and excellent breeding to truly perform. Camels, Mules, and elephants have historically gotten the job done.

Speaking of the Kitbot on Steroids and drivetrain design, we just released a new presentation on both:

http://www.simbotics.org/files/pdf/drivetrain-design.pdf

Check it out. More goodies, including an updated video with detailed instructions on how to build the KoS are coming soon!

[Dr Theta]

Karthik you just made my day! New presentations to look through tonight ::rtm:: .

[Akash Rastogi]

Speaking of the Kitbot on Steroids and drivetrain design, we just released a new presentation on both:

http://www.simbotics.org/files/pdf/drivetrain-design.pdf

Check it out. More goodies, including an updated video with detailed instructions on how to build the KoS are coming soon!

Wow, that's the most comprehensive presentation on drivetrain design I've ever seen. Kudos.

[Madison]

Speaking of the Kitbot on Steroids and drivetrain design, we just released a new presentation on both:

http://www.simbotics.org/files/pdf/drivetrain-design.pdf

Check it out. More goodies, including an updated video with detailed instructions on how to build the KoS are coming soon!

This is a fantastic presentation, Karthik. How long does it take Ben to give it? I have been struggling to cover drive design in a 45 minute session and if y'all can give such a comprehensive look at it in that same time, I'm retiring.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Speaking of the Kitbot on Steroids and drivetrain design, we just released a new presentation on both:

http://www.simbotics.org/files/pdf/drivetrain-design.pdf

Check it out. More goodies, including an updated video with detailed instructions on how to build the KoS are coming soon!

YAY! :D

[thefro526]

Speaking of the Kitbot on Steroids and drivetrain design, we just released a new presentation on both:

http://www.simbotics.org/files/pdf/drivetrain-design.pdf

Check it out. More goodies, including an updated video with detailed instructions on how to build the KoS are coming soon!

Karthik,

Is there a way that you/we/everyone can make sure that every team sees this? I've come to the conclusion that the KoS is more competitive than about 85% of the drivetrains in FRC...

[rsisk]

Karthik,

Is there a way that you/we/everyone can make sure that every team sees this? I've come to the conclusion that the KoS is more competitive than about 85% of the drivetrains in FRC...

I just shared it with about 2,000 people on the FIRST Robotics LinkedIN group. Next stop, FIRST Senior Mentors...

[pfreivald]

Great presentation on drive trains, Karthik! I'm sharing it with our rookies right now. :D

[Karthik]

This is a fantastic presentation, Karthik. How long does it take Ben to give it? I have been struggling to cover drive design in a 45 minute session and if y'all can give such a comprehensive look at it in that same time, I'm retiring.

Ben gave this presentation a couple weeks ago to a group of local Ontario teams. It took about 1:40 followed by twenty minutes of the 1114 kids assembling the KoS. Not all topics were covered in detail, doing so would probably make it a 2:30 presentation.

Karthik,

Is there a way that you/we/everyone can make sure that every team sees this? I've come to the conclusion that the KoS is more competitive than about 85% of the drivetrains in FRC...

We're working on ways to get these presentations out to a wider audience in easy to use formats. I'll have more details in the next couple of weeks. But like I said earlier, we'll have videos, step by step instructions, CAD models and a BOM.

[Ken Patton]

Those that spring to mind immediately include 157 in 1999....

The 157 bot with articulated drive from that era (2000 I think?) was awesome.

[Ether]

Speaking of the Kitbot on Steroids and drivetrain design, we just released a new presentation on both:

http://www.simbotics.org/files/pdf/drivetrain-design.pdf

Check it out.

There's a major "oops" on Page 47. The force required to move the rubber block is 50 lbs, not 1610 lbs.

[Ian Curtis]

There's a major "oops" on Page 47. The force required to move the rubber block is 50 lbs, not 1610 lbs.





Slugs strike back!

I really really like that factor of merit chart. I hope that gets into as many hands as possible. Even if people don't agree with the numbers, it is a great way to frame any discussion.

[Andy Baker]

The 157 bot with articulated drive from that era (2000 I think?) was awesome.

It was 1999. I think that the announcer called it a "daunting display of dexterity". The beginning of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0CDop_IwW8) shows a good view of their articulated wheels.

This was back when contact outside the bumper zone was very normal.

Andy B.

[Brandon Holley]

It was 1999. I think that the announcer called it a "daunting display of dexterity". The beginning of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0CDop_IwW8) shows a good view of their articulated wheels.

This was back when contact outside the bumper zone was very normal.

Andy B.

Andy do you recall what team is playing with 157 in that match? I cant seem to find a team # in the video.

I'm only curious because they seem to be sponsored by the company I work for, and this could be a fun video to pass around the office.

-Brando

[Andy Baker]

Andy do you recall what team is playing with 157 in that match? I cant seem to find a team # in the video. I'm only curious because they seem to be sponsored by the company I work for, and this could be a fun video to pass around the office.

-Brando

Oh, yes, I recall.

The other team is 131, Chaos, from Manchester NH. I believe that Kristen Kelso was a student on the team at that time, and of course Dave and Nancy Kelso were mentors (whom I did not know yet). One of their mentors was very frustrated that no penalty was called against team 45 for pushing 157 off the puck during that match.

When we (45) went out to Rumble at the Rock that following summer, team 131 was there and I was weary about running into this frustrated mentor. I thought I saw this mentor in the pits, and I did not say anything to him. The following winter out at kickoff, I approached him to address his concerns. It turned out that the guy I thought was the concerned engineer was the very understanding teacher, Mr. David Kelso, and he told me that he loved the match (except for the fact that his alliance lost) and the other frustrated mentor was wrong. And so began a wonderful friendship between my family and the Kelsos. I am sure that many other FIRSTers have great experiences with all of the Kelso family.

Speaking of Rumble at the Rock, that reminds me of another question for Dr. Joe: What was the cheer he led while wearing some ridiculous costume during 1999 Rumble?

Andy B.

[JackS]

This question is for Joe J and Aren (and Andy too):

As a "rookie", will you build a kitbot? Being in the unique position of having both experience and rookie students, how do you balance sharing your own knowledge of concepts with letting students learn lessons on their own?

[Andrew Schreiber]

In the spirit of this thread I'd like to share a little project that the EWCP would like to share with you. On our website we have created a page that recreates the wonderful JVN Single Speed DT calculator. If there is interest we will work on recreating other tools in the browser. It is available at http://ewcp.org/calculators/gearbox/single/

Simply drag the blue text items to change their values and watch the outputs change.

Enjoy

[IndySam]

Can you guys present the recorded episodes in something other than iTunes please?

I can't save the broadcasts for later listening or pause or rewind if I want to re-hear something without iTunes and I don't want to have to install it on my computer. Not to put to fine a point on it but I hate iTunes.

[thefro526]

All of the Podcasts are available for download via Talkshoe: http://www.talkshoe.com/tc/98466

Right Click the download icon next to the cast and you can save it as an MP3 file.

(Can totally understand your hate of iTunes)

[Andrew Schreiber]

All of the Podcasts are available for download via Talkshoe: http://www.talkshoe.com/tc/98466

Right Click the download icon next to the cast and you can save it as an MP3 file.

(Can totally understand your hate of iTunes)


Actually, if you prefer RSS feeds we publish that too at http://recordings.talkshoe.com/rss98466.xml (I lose the url all the time)


For reference, anyone who wants things in iTunes, all it takes is an rss feed and an apple ID. There is some special formatting in the xml to get it to parse into itunes but overall it is pretty simple. Talkshoe published those automatically for us. If you have more questions about the tools we use just shoot me a PM, I'm more than willing to discuss any of it.

Edit: Continuing my babbling about the website. ewcp.org is the EWCP Blog, there will be posts about all our casts there as well. If you just want to see the casts the link is http://ewcp.org/blog/categories/cast/

[IndySam]

Thanks Dustin

[Akash Rastogi]

Reminder to all: The cast is Tonight Sunday the 27th at 9pm EST.

I am excited.

[Matthew Blake]

Where do we go to find the webcast?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Typical information for the podcast on Talkshoe. You may want to go to Talkshoe early and create an account. You link the account to your phone number so you can call in and participate. The information below should be accurate for the call on Sunday but the ID could change
Call information:
TEL: (724) 444-7444
ID: 98466 You may need to register with Talkshoe if you haven't before.

http://www.talkshoe.com/tc/98466 should have a link to the cast once it goes live ~830PM EST

Calling in will let you listen. Using the website will allow you to listen and join in the text chat. Whichever option works best for you.

As always the casts will be available in itunes, on talkshoe, and on our website. (Ok, they all go to the same file but I like having options)

[Andrew Schreiber]

Here is the transcript from the chat tonight.

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<schreiaj> Hello everyone, we're still a bit early so we're waiting for some guests to arrive.
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<schreiaj> hasnt started
<Robotim> starts at nine
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<IndySam> boo
<schreiaj> yes?
<IndySam> hi
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<schreiaj> we'll be getting started shortly. Recording will start around 9pm EST
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<jsneer> hi everyone! hope you all had a great thanksgiving and safe travel
<Guest 11> Thanks for the update
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<jsneer> in case you were wondering the party doesnt start till dustin get here
<thefro526> <3
<schreiaj> If you listen closely you can hear my neighbors playing their music. That will continue until 2am. Creative ideas are welcome
<IndySam> know where you can get a skunk?
<BrendanB> ideas to get them to shut up?
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<schreiaj> yes please
<BrendanB> febreeze grenade
<Guest 11> Adam, thanks for all of the CAD for FRC Designs
<schreiaj> http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1085327&postcount=11
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<thefro526> Andrew is the old guy of EWCP
<BrendanB> or lack thereof :P
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<rsisk101> hey, easy on old guys
<avanboekel> what time does this start?
<BrendanB> 9
<avanboekel> thanks
<thefro526> 9PM EST
<rsisk101> Or 6PM if you are on teh "cool" coast
<thefro526> or around there
<thefro526> SISK NO ONE LIKES THE WEST COAST
<Guest 11> Hi Leeland and GCentola - Starke here
<rsisk101> bite me
<BrendanB> east coast is where things are at!
<Leeland1126> Sorry, which Starke?
<Guest 11> Matt
<ahill1625> iowa! cept not really cause its boring
<thefro526> East Coast Brings the party
<Leeland1126> Oh, hi Matt!!
<IndySam> I hate iTunes too!
<avanboekel> darn iTunes
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<GCentola1126> Hi matt!
<aspiece> Hello Everyone! T3 is in the chat!
<Guest 11> Drivetrains are important
<Guest 11> I would not miss this one
<BrendanB> This is looking to be the best cast topic so far!
<aspiece> Sorry! SOund working now. T3 is listening now
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<Guest 11> So, you guys are cool plug for FRC Designs?
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<Guest 16> sooooo about those drives?
<Guest 17> for real
<schreiaj> hey we got 2 minutes :P
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<schreiaj> http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1085327&postcount=11
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<schreiaj> cast@ewcp.org
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<Guest 11> Andrew, thank you for all of your work with the EWCP. It is so helpful
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<aspiece> Wow, there are a lot of Andy's in this cast!
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<thefro526> http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314571_10150311889922693_601157692_8416283_1245730 692_n.jpg
<Leeland1126> That picture has made my night.
<aspiece> Nice!
<thefro526> Best 10 minutes I've ever spent
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<aspiece> Sounds good
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<Guest 17> Anyone to change my username without creating an account?
<aspiece> Andrew Spiece Team 68
<schreiaj> Not that I know of Guest 17
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<aspiece> We usually stick 1/8"
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<andybaker45> the kit frame is 0.15"
<Travis_Covington> Field elements make a huge difference
<DadCF1279> We've done 1/8 with kitframe(reinforced)
<Travis_Covington> HDPE around the towers this year, wood under the bumps last year
<andybaker45> I suppose, to be more specific, the AM C-Base frame is 0.15", which was the kit frame the past couple of years
<aspiece> We used the kit frame for competition this fall and it seemed to be great.
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<BrendanB> amen!
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<aspiece> Especcially not with T3 wheels
<Guest 16> we just built the KoS and the AM frame works great with the amount of drop it give you
<MarkKramarczyk> What you put on top of the kit frame makes a big difference in how the kit frame turns.
<GCentola1126> Im pretty sure we dropped our centers from 2005-2007 until we switched to adding a pair of omni-wheels. I dont know how far we dropped them though
<schreiaj> Dr Joe, I presume this is THE Dr Joe, you are going to have to call in if you'd like to join the discussion
<Travis_Covington> 233 did it for the same reason
<Travis_Covington> 968 and 254 made bigger middle wheels
<Travis_Covington> later in the year
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<Travis_Covington> 1/2" diamter
<schreiaj> Interesting, Travis, did you find it easier to make larger wheels than to drop the mounting point for the wheel?
<Travis_Covington> 4" on the outside, 4.5" middle
<andybaker45> 45 did that in 2007... all 3 wheels the same, with a larger dia in the middle, about 1/4" more dia.
<schreiaj> DId you regear or just eat the scrub due to speed difference?
<andybaker45> we scrubbed, and had no noticeable difference
<schreiaj> any impact on tread wear?
<andybaker45> nope
<thefro526> http://team254.com/wp-content/gallery/2010-first-championships/atlanta_1_20100605_1303623699.jpg
<thefro526> 254 at the CMP
<Travis_Covington> those wheels rarely touched the ground
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<BrendanB> Yeah we did that as rookies this season and it was amazing!
<Travis_Covington> the blue tread was on there on the front wheels because we would grab the lycra inside the goal with the wedgetop
<Guest 16> KoS is great!!!
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<Baselthe2nd> Could you just not gear to the outside wheels? It'd allow them to freely spin at the faster speed. What issues would there be from that?
<Baselthe2nd> Sorry, chain to the outer wheels..
<thefro526> http://www.simbotics.org/files/pdf/drivetrain-design.pdf
<ahill1625> extra effort and ordering more sprocket sizes basel
<ahill1625> so basically lazyness
<ahill1625> and cheapness
<Travis_Covington> baselthe2nd, there wasnt really a need
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<Travis_Covington> with 8 wheels
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<andybaker45> hey, Joe
<Travis_Covington> 233 has been single speed for a few years now
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<Leeland1126> Drives can be the biggest drain of time if a team needs to fix them, since, at least in my experience, problems with drives rarely come alone.
<GCentola1126> yeah. then it leads to an hour or two of debugginh :P
<GCentola1126> *debugging
<BrendanB> Cough 78 :P
<Bryan33> 1503 is a bit of an exception.
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<thefro526> 1503 is exempt from all rules
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<aspiece> 1. MOve
<Bryan33> It needs to get you where you need to go when you need to be there.
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<GCentola1126> Just out of curiosity, what about the 221 stuff as opposed to the AM kit-bot?
<thefro526> It's fine if that's what you want
<ahill1625> mainly its just more expensive, as it doesn't come in the kit
<Guest 16> 2009
<thefro526> Anthony Lapp don't play no games
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<tubatroopa> I don't think they would make a game where the kit drive train for rookies isn't effective
<aspiece> 8 Wheel Vs. 6 Wheel? advantage to 8 wheel?
<BrendanB> I don't know what 221 is doing because right now almost all of their products have been out of stock since build season.
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<aspiece> T3
<IndySam> Mr Bill says the three most important thing on FRC robots is #1 drive train #2 drive train #3 drive train
<ahill1625> Mr. bill is a smart man
<schreiaj> ^ Sam, absolutely
<Guest 14> why dont more elite teams use swerve drive?
<DadCF1279> 8 will rotate about center if balanced.
<Leeland1126> Swerve can have a lot of pit falls to be wary of.
<GCentola1126> Guest 14-did they prototyoe it in the offseason?
<Guest 28> such as?
<BrendanB> depends on what they can do and what the game can be played better with.
<Leeland1126> complexity and ease of malfunction, for one.
<tubatroopa> swerve can be expensive and complex
<Baselthe2nd> Disadvantages of 8 wheels vs 6: just weight?
<Leeland1126> Even elite teams can have those problems
<aspiece> I see. thanks! A lot of teams were using 8 wheel in 2011 and wanted to get some other perspectives
<Guest 14> oh ok
<Travis_Covington> efficiency
<Guest 28> DO I SMELL A WATER GAME?????
<GCentola1126> no
<tubatroopa> shun
<ahill1625> no
<thefro526> 6 vs 8 is just more parts
<thefro526> more weight
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<thefro526> and a marginal change in efficiency (irrelevant)
<Leeland1126> For some, it may be unnecessary to risk using a very complex swerve drive in a game that does not necessitate omnidirectional movement.
<schreiaj> Troopa, expensive is an understatement, the design I'm working on is looking to cost ~$2000
<thefro526> ANDREW lets build it!
<Brew1086> what is an estimated weight on the KOS?
<Travis_Covington> 2001
<thefro526> ~5lbs more than a kit bot
<Guest 14> that sound like enough disadvantadges to have a reason to stick to the good ol' WCD "P
<Travis_Covington> to get up the ramp
<Travis_Covington> but it was required to get timing belt
<andybaker45> team 60... 2002
<BrendanB> 2003 was stack
<andybaker45> they introduced wedgebelt
<Guest 11> yes 2003
<Travis_Covington> but that was linatex timing belt
<DadCF1279> last year was 4 cim, 4 window, 4 banebot, & 1 FP
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<Guest 28> I just lost the game.
<Travis_Covington> andy is right, 2002 brought the wedgetop that everyone loved
<Travis_Covington> it wasnt legel before then
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<andybaker45> the efforts to find traction during the 2002 season was amazing, and team 60 found wedgetop
<tubatroopa> metal treads!!!!
<Travis_Covington> or file cards, ala 71
<BrendanB> ^yes!
<thefro526> Can we please bring file cards back
<schreiaj> gosh no...
<BrendanB> file cards would have been cool in 09!
<ahill1625> ice picks would've been cool in 09
<Leeland1126> Not having 09 would have been cool in 09
<schreiaj> ^
<DadCF1279> Drives were very different before bumpers, like the varied techniques for climbing steps in 2004.
<ahill1625> ^ that, even though we did okay
<thefro526> < loves 2009
<MarcS> Carpet would have been cool in 09.
<ahill1625> 09 with carpet would've been murder
<BrendanB> hahah I try to forget our 2009 robot even though it was pretty good. too many things to change!
<Leeland1126> I don't think even carpet could have saved Lunacy
<thefro526> 2009 was the best game ever
<BrendanB> because you could drift like anomoly did?
<schreiaj> Hang on, silencing Dustin from being able to speak so we can bash 2009
<Guest 28> Trolololol
<aspiece> T3 liked 2009
<thefro526> Andrew, why you mad
<Guest 28> You mad bro?
<ahill1625> snuggles would've had his way with anomaly
<Baselthe2nd> 2009? Shun.
<thefro526> Also, someone asked me if we had a swerve at Philly
<schreiaj> T3 needs to go back to your old 6wd
<aspiece> LOL
<thefro526> I was like 'we practiced a lot'
<schreiaj> I've been telling Brent that
<Travis_Covington> double D...ugh
<Guest 11> i do
<aspiece> Give us a game where defense is a serious strategy
<DadCF1279> Yes, never blew up a globe.
<tubatroopa> I've heard of the globe...why the switch?
<MarkKramarczyk> we long for the globe motor
<Guest 11> globes were.........interesting
<ahill1625> the company stopped making them
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<DadCF1279> you could remove a stage
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<DadCF1279> I think 700rpm instead of 125
<andybaker45> 4 seat motors
<thefro526> We welded the stage
<andybaker45> 2 drills
<ahill1625> 81rpm to around 405rpm
<Travis_Covington> with the flexible shafts and square drive
<Travis_Covington> awesome
<thefro526> Travis, what team are you with now?
<schreiaj> I remember those flexible shafts
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<andybaker45> seat motors were about 50 watts
<Travis_Covington> 60 lifted the goals in 2002 with 1 seat motor per goal
<ahill1625> i've found all these motors laying around from team #44 that used to be at Iowa State
<Travis_Covington> 254
<schreiaj> I have all manner of expletives for those
<Travis_Covington> since 2009
<thefro526> That's Travis, I couldn't remember
<andybaker45> Van door motor, globe motor... who brought those to FIRST?
<schreiaj> I'd bet delphi but that's not based on anything other than a gut feeling
<thefro526> when I started in FRC (2005/2006) you were with RAWC
<andybaker45> I believe that the answer is the guy who is talking now
<schreiaj> Ah ok
<DadCF1279> I think 2005 was the first time they supplied a gearbox for CIMs.
<schreiaj> yes
<schreiaj> and 2007 was the worst gearbox for CIMs ever
<ahill1625> the ones paul copioli designed for IFI
<Guest 11> 2004 robot with drill motors: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/17077
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<Guest 11> Proud to say I was apart of it
<Travis_Covington> I miss the van door, too
<DadCF1279> 2007 was the Banebot planetary
<andybaker45> 2002 = CIM's first year
<andybaker45> 2005 = the large CIM Motor
<Guest 11> with tensioner right Andy?
<schreiaj> 2007 was the Banebots pain-in-the-***
<andybaker45> yes
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<thefro526> CIM motor is best motor.
<Travis_Covington> atwood mobile lift jack
<Guest 11> That was weird. Did you try machining the extra plate off?
<thefro526> That motor single handedly changed FRC
<Guest 14> what was wrong with the banebots in 07?
<ahill1625> the team that helped start 1625 called them chalupa's
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<Travis_Covington> 2003 we got the ones with the 8mm shaft
<aspiece> Aren't CIM motors also used in electric wheelchairs
<schreiaj> The BB 07 transmission looked like you could direct drive a wheel with it and cantilever the wheel. You couldn't at all
<andybaker45> 1999
<Guest 31> now we're at 900W a side...
<Travis_Covington> Double Trouble
<Travis_Covington> ladder logic
<Travis_Covington> yes
<andybaker45> Ladder Logic = 98
<Travis_Covington> 1998
<Guest 31> 98 was tower terror...?
<Guest 31> nvm
<tubatroopa> Andy would know about 98
<Travis_Covington> torroid terror? 97?
<Guest 31> thats what im thinking
<thefro526> Andy won 98?
<Travis_Covington> Andy in his beanie... classic moments
<andybaker45> team 45 won in 98
<DadCF1279> 1997 - Toroid Terror
<schreiaj> cookie to whoever provides pictures of Andy in a beanie
<DadCF1279> 1998 - Ladder Logic
<thefro526> Andy, it's weird not to think of you on 45.
<tubatroopa> and then finalist in 99
<aspiece> with us
<tubatroopa> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0CDop_IwW8&list=PL519AA5963FE3E499&index=4&feature=plpp_video not a pic but andy in a beanie
<andybaker45> 1 win away from back to back
<tubatroopa> Team 45 misses Baker
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<schreiaj> http://d.pr/TMEW THere we go.
<aspiece> T3 + swerve = fail
<Brew1086> 6 wheel swerve, still brings back bad memories
<andybaker45> dunno... most complicated = 2001 from team 47
<Guest 11> http://frc-designs.com/html/drives.html
<Guest 11> http://frc-designs.com/html/Offseason.html
<schreiaj> what made it so complex Andy?
<thefro526> 2006 IRI
<thefro526> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_vIKB0GRVs
<andybaker45> each wheel was a tank tread, each wheel pivoted independently. 8 motors total
<schreiaj> o.o
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<thefro526> 2006 was best game
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<Stogi> back in Philly, glad Dr. Joe found his way onto the cast.
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<ahill1625> yeah that gets it hands down vs the 6wd swerve
<Travis_Covington> coopertition'
<Stogi> coopertition
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<Stogi> RC have you talked yet?
<andybaker45> and each wheel was a tank tread
<Travis_Covington> yes
<thefro526> Just going to leave this here http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314571_10150311889922693_601157692_8416283_1245730 692_n.jpg
<andybaker45> yes, first year
<andybaker45> or second
<Travis_Covington> no, 2000
<apalrd> first year for IFI was 2000
<tubatroopa> 2001 Diabolical Dynamics
<Travis_Covington> first year
<apalrd> but PBASIC
<andybaker45> Travis and I are just shaking our heads
<andybaker45> heheheh
<Travis_Covington> we agreed, 2000
<Stogi> we're noobs
<Travis_Covington> haha
<apalrd> I think there were 64 bytes of variable space on that controller
<andybaker45> 1999 = Victor
<andybaker45> 2000 = IFI Controller
<Travis_Covington> I dont feel that old
<thefro526> 1999 = I was 8
<schreiaj> I stand corrected. (I started FRC in 2004, was going based on the stack of controllers in the closet)
<Leeland1126> Blaming software every time makes my heart sad
<thefro526> man I feel young
<apalrd> 2004 was the first year for the PIC-based IFI system
<andybaker45> aha, yes
<Stogi> someone correct is on the cast please
<Stogi> incase not everyone reads the chat log
<Stogi> it*
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<Travis_Covington> IFI 2000 in PBasic, 2004 PIC
<Travis_Covington> yes, troughs
<andybaker45> 2000 was awesome
<ahill1625> 2006
<schreiaj> Andy/Travis, would one of you guys like to call in to correct the fact that the majority of EWCP is < 22 yrs old?
<DadCF1279> Talk about gearing....
<andybaker45> chain vs belt vs gear drive?
<Maxwell540> what about driect mech drive
<aspiece> Yes
<aspiece> YEs!
<Guest 16> aka mechanum vs 6wd
<thefro526> All of those questions will be answered soon
<apalrd> there's also slide and swerve
<Guest 11> 973 CAD: http://frc-designs.com/html/Offseason.html
<four0foured> mr. hill, what year did 44/ames stop competing? Just curious
<ahill1625> 97,98,99, existed for 3 years
<ahill1625> i've found random parts laying around from them
<Guest 31> heh, mr. hill, im bugging you about that
<Guest 31> this is aren btw
<four0foured> thanks, fyi im from the marion team 967
<ahill1625> we may try getting that team number back next year
<four0foured> i heard, ha
<four0foured> its sweet having another iowa team
<aspiece> How about 2826?
<Leeland1126> Game necessitates it. Only reason.
<tubatroopa> coolness factor!!!
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<thefro526> Can someone give me a swerve someday
<thefro526> please?
<schreiaj> Coolness should NOT come into play in engineering decisions. imho
<Stogi> btw, Brandon Holley from 125 had to bail on the cast cause someone in the family is having a baby. He wouldve been qualified to talk about beltvschain
<apalrd> 16 drives swerve awesomely
<Guest 31> haha 16 goodness
<apalrd> but I've seen hardly any well-driven mecanums (they do exist, but are very rare)
<Travis_Covington> how do you pronounce that properly? can we get a consensus?
<Guest 31> mecanums aren't cool anyway...
<tubatroopa> IT was a joke. we tried meccanums and it didn't work
<thefro526> meh can um?
<GCentola1126> 2337?
<BrendanB> Doesn't matter how you pronounce it they still stink!
<schreiaj> mecanum - pronounced as "doesn't work"
<ahill1625> 488 had a great octocanum implementation
<Stogi> ^
<schreiaj> That they did
<Guest 31> they have their uses, but they limited
<andybaker45> mecanums and killough drives are good demo robots
<Guest 31> *they are
<Brew1086> I've never heard anyone say "that's so cool" about a robot as the robot is being pushed across the field
<Stogi> mecanum stinks if the team doesn't know how to drive
<IndySam> here comes the mecanum haters
<apalrd> 2337 is one of the best mecanum teams I have seen, most mecanums are NOT good.
<Guest 31> they're slow
<apalrd> there is stock code for mecanum
<aspiece> Too late!
<Stogi> not mecanum haters, just teams who dont use it well
<Travis_Covington> haha
<thefro526> http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/14988
<aspiece> No comment on 2010
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<schreiaj> :P
<Travis_Covington> can you guys talk about objective reasoning and design decisions when it comes to drivetrain selection?
<Stogi> KITBOT
<schreiaj> aspiece, I spent most of Troy District trying to rewire your robot
<Stogi> talk about how people need to build kitbots
<schreiaj> Travis, we'd love to in a later cast. Would you be interested in joining?
<schreiaj> Stogi, you missed that
<Stogi> aww man
<Stogi> stupid Philly traffic
<ahill1625> http://www.simbotics.org/files/pdf/drivetrain-design.pdf is a very very good presentation
<aspiece> 2337, 2826, 573 has nice mecanum designs. 2826 saw division finals.. Schriaj --> I spent most of Ann Arbor soing the same
<Stogi> 2826 has jump drive
<ahill1625> hearing from 2826's driver, they barely ever used the actual strafing capability
<tubatroopa> octacanums are nifty
<Travis_Covington> tensioning improvements, too
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<Travis_Covington> add to efficiency
<thefro526> No pure Mecanum will ever make Einstein.
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<Leeland1126> 51?
<ahill1625> until the GDC makes a game where robots never touch each other
<Guest 31> i wouldn't say they won't ever, but they haven't ever... so yeah
<aspiece> I understand thefro526
<Guest 31> 51 was slide
<Stogi> Yeah, Adam's and RC's stuff can be made on a manual mill
<Leeland1126> Hmm... Memory must be fuzzy then =/
<Guest 16> does anyone else hear that beeping?
<Guest 31> yes
<Guest 29> I do
<Travis_Covington> yes
<tubatroopa> I do
<GCentola1126> yes
<Guest 14> yea
<DomenicR> yes
<Baselthe2nd> Unfortunately
<thefro526> I think it's Adam
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<Guest 31> lol
<tubatroopa> GRR (pun intended)
<schreiaj> confirming 51 was slide. The cross wheel was actuated down with a gas shock
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<Guest 31> yep
<schreiaj> there is a beeping. Dunno what's causing it
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<Guest 16> ...what?
<Leeland1126> That's actually pretty ingenious.
<Guest 31> drop down ball caster or omni wheel at one end
<Guest 31> cool
<tubatroopa> ingenious
<BrendanB> t boning is the best part of 6wd
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<schreiaj> Dustin, would you be willing to draw said diagram and get it to me so I can post it on our website?
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<Bryan33> kind of reminds me of 148 this year.
<Guest 16> ^
<Bryan33> With the omnis in the middle they only had traction when they wanted
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<thefro526> Andrew, I'll do it at work
<Maxwell540> which would you sujest 6wd or omni drive?
<thefro526> tomorrow
<schreiaj> Thanks Dustin
<thefro526> 6WD IS BEST DRIVE ALWAYS
<andybaker45> tubatroopa did that to 111 at Midwest regional and scared the bejeezus out of them (strong t-bone)
<aspiece> Direct drive and depends on distance
<apalrd> chain allows a final stage of drive reduction without machining gears
<apalrd> my opinion
<schreiaj> Maxwell, I would suggest the minimal viable system that meets your needs
<BrendanB> 6wd unless you are against me then you can use omni!
<aspiece> always go with chain
<Guest 16> Oh!!! How do you tension your chain!
<Guest 16> ?*
<Guest 32> tensioning woes?
<Maxwell540> what about direct drive what are your thaughts
<Stogi> I think RC and Adam and Travis should talk about tensioning if Travis wants to call in
<Guest 16> ^yes
<Stogi> WCD teams always seem to know the best ways to judge tension
<aspiece> direct drive is key if driving all four wheels
<schreiaj> why?
<aspiece> That would be a great question for Mr. Smith but he always goes that way
<andybaker45> 234 did a study a while back, proving that belts are more efficient
<andybaker45> I think they put a white paper up on CD
<Stogi> yup its somewhere
<Travis_Covington> yeah, that was a very specific chain case though, too
<schreiaj> yes it is, give me a second to find it
<aspiece> That would be very interesting to read.
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<schreiaj> http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2246
<aspiece> Our CNC takes forever to make the pulleys
<Travis_Covington> no double since 2007
<aspiece> Thanks schreiaj
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<thefro526> 816 was the #6 on archi in 2008 with a 6WD KB and #6 on Curie in 2009 with a 6WD KB
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<aspiece> We stick with #25 chain for a while now without any issues
<Stogi> For anyone who doesn't know how to calculate what gearing they need, go check out JVN's calculator and also our own calculator on the EWCP website
<Stogi> Andrew has the link to it if anyone wants
<schreiaj> http://ewcp.org/calculators/gearbox/single/
<schreiaj> If you have any suggestions for what needs to be added to that let me know
<Maxwell540> what do you think about a can jaguar system to drive the robot?
<Guest 16> if you take a look in the 2007 behind the design book they have a few pages on that drive
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<andybaker45> yes, definitely, we have a demo bot at AM which uses this new WormBox, and it leaves the middle of the robot WIIIIDDDEEE open
<schreiaj> Max, that's getting into controls. See Dr Joe's discussion on CD for that. My experience with CAN was not good and I would not suggest it
<Guest 16> PLEASE
<Stogi> RC Adam and Travis please
<aspiece> Pull hard!
<Travis_Covington> 233 runs without
<Travis_Covington> 25 chain
<Guest 16> oh and we have used CAN the last couple years and have loved it
<Stogi> talk abotu dead spacing?
<Stogi> about*
<Stogi> how to dead space chain
<apalrd> Adjust the wheel axle = adjust chain length
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<thefro526> Akash, I've got it
<Guest 16> do the blocks slide at all?
<Guest 31> the cam is not backdrivable
<Stogi> blocks clamp hard between the plates
<Guest 31> cam/bolt/whatever mechanism you design
<Guest 16> ok cool
<Stogi> i'll throw up a quick bolt tensioner sometime on the EWCP site that i got from help from Adam
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<Stogi> its thrown into a bearing block in 2x1 tube
<Guest 31> the other thing with chain is tensioning becomes less crucial if you have 180 degrees of wrap on every sprocket
<schreiaj> Send it my way, I'll add all this to the DT cast post
<Guest 31> you still need to tension it some
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<Guest 31> but you have more room for error
<Guest 31> chain length! its cool
<Stogi> wait for real? i dont think ive seen that white paper
<schreiaj> http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/1598
<thefro526> Andrew, do we time out at 10:30?
<Stogi> sweet
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<schreiaj> I dont think so, maybe we do
<andybaker45> there are websites for this also... google "Chain length calculator"
<Stogi> andrew can you reset it to end later?
<Guest 31> title: Dr Joe's Chain Path Visualizer
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<schreiaj> Stogi, we should be good
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<Maxwell540> can drive
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<Guest 31> kitbot on steroids
<apalrd> drop center 6wd kitbot
<Leeland1126> Machining capabilities?
<schreiaj> Hand tools
<DadCF1279> 6wd unless the game is on regolith
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<aspiece> Kit bot
<Guest 31> perhaps shifting if you have money, but thats more work too
<Stogi> Leeland at that point it doesnt matter unless you're Aren Hill
<Stogi> unless you're Aren Hill, you will always make 6wd
<ahill1625> dang it akash
<Stogi> <3
<thefro526> 6WD SWERVE?


GOOD IDEA ALWAYS
<Leeland1126> Haha I just wanted to know! Kitbot on Steroids. Definitely.
<thefro526> <3
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<avanboekel> stop idolizing the kitbot! there is a reason that the great teams dont use it!
<tubatroopa> Maybe someone should redo the ball drive
<Guest 31> see 973
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<schreiaj> avan, the issue is that 95% of us won't be those great teams
<Stogi> idolizing? if you dont like teh c channel, replace it with tube of your own if you want
<aspiece> T3 2010!
<Guest 31> aren hill...
<Stogi> but the point is that it works
<Guest 31> he will
<schreiaj> Given my resources doing a custom chassis would be worse than retarded
<aspiece> Enough said
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<samb28000> How about Dr. Joe's involvement in the development of Dewalts and NBD's?
<thefro526> DID AREN JUST SAY HE HAS A SANE DRIVE?
<andybaker45> this will be my 15th year as an FRC mentor, and it will most likely be my 15th year to not do a swerve drive
<schreiaj> If your robot doesnt move your team won't want to compete
<Maxwell540> how long do you think it takes to build, test, and get used to Swerve Drive?
<Stogi> lol Dr. Joe and Aren will have swerves, i'll have kitbot on steroids
<andybaker45> 6 weeks
<avanboekel> i agree, but they never will be great unless they try to create something better
<Guest 31> reliability is number 1
<Guest 16> andy what about the ball drive?
<Stogi> Baker will have a Transformer
<tubatroopa> Baker will be the robot duh
<thefro526> I heard that Baker built a hovercraft\
<IndySam> no problem
<Guest 16> HOVER SWERVE
<apalrd> control system is far too complex for what it does
<Stogi> According to Jared, connection time is better
<Stogi> with the new system
<thefro526> Akash, it's better
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<Baselthe2nd> Hit 10:31, still going.
<thefro526> not IFI good
<Stogi> Jared from 341 btw
<avanboekel> i will agree that a custom chassis isn't for everyone, but the kitbot isn't for 95% of teams
<Guest 31> how are we using an fpga? or any of the features of IP and 802.11?
<DadCF1279> Joe - Don't use Java rookie year.......
<schreiaj> avan, why not?
<Stogi> ^ why not?
<Stogi> 1279 why not Java?
<Guest 29> we use java without problem
<Guest 31> well banebots are a different issue...
<schreiaj> so did T3
<MarcS> 973 lost Los angeles because of bane bots.
<Guest 31> heh no
<aspiece> We dodn't have any issues at all with the banebots
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<apalrd> 550 = almost as much power
<Guest 31> but significantly smaller
<Guest 31> so for more intermittent duty
<Bryan33> we ran 2 550s. It worked great
<apalrd> ~250w vs ~260w for 550 vs 775
<Bryan33> On our elevator
<aspiece> I can't remember the model but I remember it was the highest number model number
<Guest 29> will banebots be able to supply parts on time this year? any guesses?
<aspiece> Our entire arm system was powered by them using belts
<schreiaj> BB has supplied parts for many years
<Travis_Covington> 254 had zero issues with the 775s
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<Guest 31> that is a rule
<Travis_Covington> we had 20 of them or more
<Stogi> someone on here asked abotu Jags in drives
<Guest 31> its just a dmm check...
<Stogi> anyone want to hit that one
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<Stogi> i know its a no Jags from most of the people in the cast
<tubatroopa> 45 didn't have BB issues...besides just waiting for them to come in
<avanboekel> schreiaj, because in order for teams to become great, they need to try and model themselves off of the great teams, and that includes a custom chassis
<Baselthe2nd> Was it a particular manufacturer who made the defective 775s? Explains how many teams had no issues while others had many.
<Stogi> i know we wont be using Jags int he drive
<Guest 31> linear response
<schreiaj> avan, what team are you from?
<Stogi> unless something changes in the new model
<tubatroopa> 45 uses jags for drive
<samb28000> Why's that Stogi?^
<schreiaj> (just so I know where you are coming from)
<avanboekel> schreiaj, i'm just trying to say that there is a reason that the great teams use custom frames
<Stogi> Samb its just the history
<avanboekel> and im from 2338 gear it forward
<Stogi> until i know its as reliable as a Vic
<schreiaj> because they have the resources and experience to do better than the KoP frame
<Stogi> it wont be on a drive system
<IndySam> We have never had a blag jag fail in two years.
<samb28000> solid reason right there, if you've had good experience with vics
<Guest 31> heh sounds like us
<Stogi> plus smaller footprint
<Guest 31> we failed vics cuz our electronics people dropped bolts inside
<Stogi> and the reset Adam is currently tlaking about
<ahill1625> companies typically get product into the loop in large seperate bulk runs, meaning depending when you get them you might get some from a good batch
<ahill1625> or bad
<apalrd> firmware of Jaguar reads current sensor then software cuts output of Jaguar
<samb28000> We're considering switching from jags to vics, hopefully eliminating some control and com issues. vics are really sounding better
<DadCF1279> We had Jag trouble lunacy - static electricity from the wheels. Didn't blow any in 2010 or 2011.
<apalrd> We routinely reset the Jaguar on our Lunacy shooter after ~5mins running
<Stogi> hey since the call didn't time out, can we talk about issues teams face with the kitbot? and common work arounds
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<Guest 31> stall is 133A
<schreiaj> if everyone is up for it
<Guest 31> or something like that
<Stogi> for example: building up fromt he kitbot used to be a pain
<Stogi> but andy has a new bracket now
<Stogi> also things like welding kitbot
<Guest 31> there is new firmware, but ive heard no significant changes
<apalrd> the FIRST CAN one is not open-source
<avanboekel> schreiaj, I believe that if a team has the resources and experience to create a custom drive train, then they should
<Stogi> avan- sometimes having resources doesnt mean you should do something
<Baselthe2nd> @avan: The question is if those resources are better spent elsewhere
<Stogi> ^
<Stogi> exactly
<samb28000> if something will work without wasting time and effort on it, then you shouldn't.^
<avanboekel> schreiaj, i do agree with you as far as gearboxes (because the toughbox is great)
<schreiaj> And I believe that 90% of teams can't do better based on my experience. in 10 yrs I've seen too many teams with a custom DT never do anything else
<andybaker45> well, Mark made those, and Brandon
<Stogi> I like the thought of welding a kitbot
<DadCF1279> We like to rivet the kitbot, saves weight.
<Stogi> or that^
<Stogi> we'll also be throwing 1x1 tubing in there to stiffen it up
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<Stogi> yup
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<Stogi> 121/78 used to be the bosses of simplified FRC robots
<Stogi> 330's lathe is the best
<thefro526> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvK-e-13dK0
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<Stogi> Did you guys talk about best materials other than the kit chassis to build a chassis from?
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<Stogi> 2x1 tubing
<Stogi> stuff like that
<Stogi> tubing!
<IndySam> wood!
<samb28000> another 330 lathe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwDFD-TjDFU
<aspiece> tubing
<Stogi> use all the tubing
<Travis_Covington> 4130, 4340
<andybaker45> 4140 steel
<Stogi> 4340
<Stogi> 7075 you mean?
<andybaker45> agreed
<Travis_Covington> yes, design, limiting stress risers
<andybaker45> keyways = bad, hex = good
<Stogi> also- teams who still use 1/4" plate- what's up with that? 1/4" is like old school New England FRC stuff and just seems so heavy
<schreiaj> Aren, broken drive = death and missed einstein
<Stogi> pocketing doesnt seem worth it after a certain point, just use tube
<ahill1625> sorry schreibs
<ahill1625> 1/4" plate+waterjet = quite nice
<schreiaj> depends on your capabilities akash
<Brew1086> keyway kept us from Einstien
<schreiaj> Like Aren said, if you have a waterjet and no mill everything looks like it should be plate
<Stogi> USE HEX
<Brew1086> well that and 6 wheel swerve
<Travis_Covington> broach, rotary or otherwise
<ahill1625> :P you cheesy
<Bryan33> Its true, we shattered several keys in our drivetrain last year.
<andybaker45> we should buy and sell broaches.
<andybaker45> heh
<ahill1625> yes andy, you should
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<aspiece> yes Andy you should
<avanboekel> schreiaj, what team are you from?
<ahill1625> he's with 79 in florida
<schreiaj> Currently 79 but formerly 397/3450
<avanboekel> k
<aspiece> Couldn't take another build season in the snow
<schreiaj> My exp was all with 397 which was an inner city team with some hand tools and lost all their engineering mentors due to Delphi closing their shop
<schreiaj> and no spiece, couldn't find a job in MI that wasn't automotive
<aspiece> LOL. just messing with yah
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<Travis_Covington> brittle!
<aspiece> I can't wait to see your tan in St. Louis!
<Travis_Covington> no shock load capability
<schreiaj> Outside? Dawg I'm a programmer. I work in a closed room
<aspiece> LOL! Good Point
<Stogi> any other topics?
<Stogi> sounds like you guys are done
<Travis_Covington> next cast?
<andybaker45> good show, guys
<schreiaj> uh one sec
<Stogi> next cast- two weeks?
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<aspiece> Thank you all for the insight, guys. Us rookie team leaders need every insight we can get
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<avanboekel> Thanks guys, was a great cast! I enjoyed the discussion.
<Stogi> how do you feel about bumpers?
<Stogi> they're gross
<schreiaj> Two weeks. We'll be working on our mini casts detailing specific drive trains (skid, crab, mecanum, kiwi, omni, slide, hybrid) over the next couple we
<schreiaj> *weeks
<tubatroopa> sweet
<Stogi> Travis did you want to come in for a special cast on WCD?
<compwiztobe> 2 cim drivetrain with cvts!
<avanboekel> sounds good, cant wait!
<aspiece> Good. Looking forward to it. Is there an email list to get in?
<Travis_Covington> if you need someone
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<Stogi> i think it would be a cool cast, might be close to kickoff though
<Baselthe2nd> Excellent cast. Thanks for answering my questions, EWCP and all.
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<Stogi> one cast we want to do is "Kickoff: What do?"
<schreiaj> Travis, we'd love to have you join in sometime. Shoot one us an email (or just hit up cast@ewcp.org ) and we'll work something out
<thefro526> Agreed Amdrew
<compwiztobe> 1114, 2056 at IRI, that was pretty epic
<Brew1086> ^yes^
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<compwiztobe> yeah if you can get the practice, the extra manufacturing/assembly for shifting is not that much and worth it
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<Travis_Covington> speed is everything
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<MarcS> or 22 tetras...
<rccc1323> sorry guys dead phone. Driving.
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<Baselthe2nd> It's just as much juking as much as getting away when there's an opening, I think..
<Stogi> peace guys we'll have to parse the other details out with specific teams
<schreiaj> kk
<compwiztobe> haha
<tubatroopa> who souldn't
<Meredith16> how much would you pay?
<tubatroopa> *wouldn't
<thefro526> Enough
<thefro526> Not sure how much I can afford
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<Meredith16> I'm looking at an $18,000 bill to FIRST...
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<Stogi> haha
<jsneer> lol
<Travis_Covington> literally
<Stogi> Thanks to the guys who were able to join the cast. Sorry i rounded you up but didnt join
<Stogi> stupid college
The recording has ended.

[Andrew Lawrence]

So, I missed the cast (and can't watch until tomorrow). What was a basic summery, and the main points made?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Download http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-98466/TS-563546.mp3

Stream http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/audioPop.jsp?episodeId=563546&cmd=apop

[BrendanB]

Thanks for the discussion to all of those who participated!

[IndySam]

I really liked the history part of the discussion. I would love to see more casts about FIRST history.

[Ether]

I do not recognize all the voices. Who was speaking at the 5:37 minute mark in the mp3?

[Andrew Schreiber]

I do not recognize all the voices. Who was speaking at the 5:37 minute mark in the mp3?




On this cast was:

Dustin
Andrew (me)
Adam Heard
Aren Hill
Dr Joe Johnson
Ranjit Chahal

[Akash Rastogi]

I do not recognize all the voices. Who was speaking at the 5:37 minute mark in the mp3?




5:37 is Dustin (thefro526)

Although I wasn't able to be in on the cast last night (driving back to Philly) I really want to give a huge thank you to Dr. Joe Johnson, Adam Heard, Aren Hill, and R.C. for joining the EWCP crew for a cast. It was definitely an interesting lesson. I cannot wait to see everyone at competitions this year and thank you guys personally.