New Poll! (2)

[archiver]

[archiver]

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST


In Reply to: New Poll posted by PollMaster on 5/27/99 8:30 PM MST:



With a 40% growth rate, it is only a matter of time before the Nationals cannot be 'come if you want to' event.

The spector of 500 or 1000 teams at the Nationals makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

I say that FIRST should address this problem in 2000.

Joe J.

[archiver]

Posted by Tom Vanderslice.

Student on team #275, ORHS/AST/Hitachi, from Academy of Science and Technology and Hitachi.

Posted on 5/27/99 11:51 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:



I'm gonna have to disagree with you about doing it next year...

Undoubtedly (sp?) it will have to happen eventually, but I think they
ought to figure out how to add another day to the finals schedule before
limiting the number of teams. I don't think you can really tell teams
there must be a qualification of some sort for nationals w/out assuring
there is a regional EVERYONE can easily get too. (this is a big problem
in texas...where our regional was cancelled this year b/c of not enough
teams signed up...b/c even if you have a lot of teams in texas...its
still a hike just to get to the competition...you have some serious travel
time involved...but there are places that its even farther to the nearest
regional)...anyway...what i'm trying to say is...if you have them
qualify you completely discourage real growth in any area where there
isn't a regional...there are many teams out there whose goal is just to get to
nationals...it is a big deal for them...if they can't come it takes away from
a lot of the competition...but like i said...eventually it will have to happen
there is no way around it...i just don't think next year is the year to do it...

Tom
Team 275

[archiver]

Posted by Frank Toussaint.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Wheeling and Rolling Meadows and Motorola .

Posted on 5/28/99 7:52 AM MST


In Reply to: I'm going to have to disagree posted by Tom Vanderslice on 5/27/99 11:51 PM MST:



I'm gonna have to agree - with Tom. Let's put this restriction off
for as long as possible.

The idea of 500 or 1000 teams at the nationals warms my heart and
jolts my adrenalin. If FIRST can manage it, well, great!

[archiver]

Posted by Susanne Krussell.

Coach on team #163, The Quantum Mechanics, from International Academy and Quantum Consultants/Eaton/ITT.

Posted on 5/28/99 6:04 PM MST


In Reply to: I'm going to have to disagree posted by Tom Vanderslice on 5/27/99 11:51 PM MST:



Well Joe, You sure know how to start a good conversation! The thought of not making Nationals is frightening to me. FIRST is important in the life of my kids (and me, too!) This seems pretty exclusionary. New teams, shaky teams, low-budget teams, and teams who have a bad year will all be adversely affected. . Going to Nationals is a prime motivator. And I mean Nationals, NOT Disney. The kids come for the Nationals. To lose all hope of that with a poor showing at regionals is a cruel and unusual punishment. While I recognize the impending problem, Dean has said all along that he wants thousands of teams. They can work this out without excluding teams. I figure that as long as the economy does so well, we're in business funding-wise from the engineering companies. There are always more solutions to any problem, and I do not want to see kids lose an opportunity like the Nationals due to an overcrowding situation. Geez!

[archiver]

Posted by Daniel.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/28/99 7:15 PM MST


In Reply to: Yeah....me, too posted by Susanne Krussell on 5/28/99 6:04 PM MST:



When we were talking aboout how to get more QM matches squeezed in at nationals, there were three major options:

1) More arenas
2) More time
3) Less practice

All apply in this case as well...

Number two is scary. It's hard enough to live with the days that we miss as it is. So forget that one.

Number three is cruel and unusual to rookie teams that don't have enough money to go to both a regional and nationals. Besides, we all know how valuable practice is. So let's scratch number three as well.

What are we left with? More arenas.

Disney has space! Why aren't we using it? I know FIRST is understaffed, but shouldn't they be growing with the times?

Here's how I envision nationals. There are about five regional-sized groups that compete within themselves and have finals in their own group. You may complain that this is unfair, that you might get unlucky and be in a tough group, but if you didn't notice, FIRST did it this year; they just didn't separate us physically. I think physical separation is the next logical step. Take those groups and put two arenas each, on three sides of the pit area. Teams would always be at one of the two arenas for their section. It wouldn’t be so confusing that way. Anyway, something along those lines...

Maybe we could even use regionals to pick what group teams fall into. This would make it a LITTLE more fair...

Anyway, I'm just thinking aloud here. Anyone care to join me?


-Daniel

[archiver]

Posted by Dan.

Student on team #10, BSM, from Benilde-St. Margaret's and Banner Engineering.

Posted on 5/28/99 1:58 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:



I was lucky enough to meet with some FIRST staff not to long ago for our Lego League competition and they desparately wanted Nationals to be an invite-only affair. From an organization standpoint they were more than maxxed out this year and couldn't handle 40% more teams without some major help.
Whether I want this to happen or not, I'm not sure, but I'm almost positive it is going to happen. :-Dan

[archiver]

Posted by colleen.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 5/28/99 3:05 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:




I'll have to say, I put in a vote of 'Agree', and I agree with DrJ, it's got to be cut down before the nationals, or those are going to become a weeklong event because you won't be able to squeeze it into 3 days anymore.

But what I don't necessarily agree with is how to solve this overcrowded problem. Using the regionals as a qualifier and then for wildcard spots using rank and other awards submissions is a good idea. A good idea with stipulations that is. I still think that's an unfair route to travel with rookie teams. For many (and the veteren teams too) the regional is like a practice, often a first exposure to many drivers and operators of what the competition's going to be like and I think that is needed if you are going to make the regional a really important competition.

So, in a nutshell, in order for that solution to be a bit more fair around, maybe FIRST could set up (at least there needs to be more) of the pre-competition scrimmages that some teams have to allow teams the exposure and the chance to fix unforseen problems before the competition. One way to do that would be to have the 6 week building period than a one-week practice time.. basically extending the build period, but that way no one can cry unfair if they do bad in competition

just an idea

[archiver]

Posted by Becky Sherman.

Student on team #27, The Rush, from OSMTech Academy and DaimlerChrysler.

Posted on 5/28/99 3:22 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:



I agree. With 500 or a 1000 teams, nationals cannot be a mere four days. If it was, then teams would only have 3 or 4 seeding rounds, unless FIRST makes nationals a week long event. A week long competition is almost too much. For one thing its a lot more expensive for the teams and FIRST, plus a week is a long time to be missing school or work.

Besides, I think making teams compete for nationals makes it all that much more fun and competitive. But that's just my opinion.

[archiver]

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/28/99 7:36 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:



I have been involved in serious discussions with many folks on this issue. Somehow, someway, someday this is not going to fit in one 3 day event at Disney (or anywhere else for that matter!).

Some folks have proposed extending the event extra days. This is possible, but I am not a big fan of this idea. My major reason against it is that that way lies madness. 40% growth eventually means the entire month of May is spent in a parking lot in Florida ;-)

I have heard other possible solutions that are being proposed.

One is the idea of having a 'Rookie Nationals' followed by a non-rookie Nationals the following week. Actually, this really only buys us one or at most 2 more years.

A variant on the above proposal is to have an invitation only non-rookie Nationals in a year or two after we have grown to where even without the rookies, we are still to big to fit into one competition. One benefit of this system is that in addition to putting of the day of reckoning when teams have to earn a slot at the Nationals, it allows rookie teams to get a shot at going to Disney their 1st FIRST year. The thinking being that teams many need the encouragement and inspiration of a trip to WDW their first year, but after that we have them hooked!

Another proposals is to have two National Weekends at EPCOT. Teams would be randomly divided between the weekends. Matches would be played only until N teams (N to be determined) are left. All awards, including the Chairman's Award would be given out each week. The 2N teams from the two weeks meet a month or so later at the NATIONAL FINALS (hopefully held in some TV studio and broadcast on TV). A benefit of this is that it is scalable, meaning that we can grow to 3 weekends, 4 weekends, etc. as we grow. If we can pull of the TV thing, it would allow background spots on drivers, coaches, and other interesting characters from the qualifying teams to be produced much like the spots that air along with the Olympics. It would go a long way to developing the personalities I think would make us even more likely to get on Prime Time TV (can you say, 'Peekaboo Street!').

Yet another proposal that I have heard proposed is to have teams qualify this year for next year's Nationals. For instance, this year teams would be given some criteria that would qualify them for the '01 Nationals (of course the '00 Nationals would still be open to all). Rookies would either have their own weekend or would be given automatic entry or would be shut out, depending on the temperament of the proposer :). Anyway, this would give teams time to plan for their trip to Florida. It would also allow FIRST to promote other goals they wish to promote (e.g. all Chairman's Award Finalists may be given a invitation).

Perhaps you have other proposals. Do tell.

Comments are welcome.

Joe J.

[archiver]

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/28/99 7:54 PM MST


In Reply to: some possible alternatives posted by Joe Johnson on 5/28/99 7:36 PM MST:



Some more comments about the multiple weekend proposal (can you tell which one I like best ;-):

More winners.

FIRST really needs to improve the prizes to teams ratio. Especially in the Chairman's Award area. There are simply too many teams doing too much good work for FIRST not to increase the number of teams that they recognize for this Award. The same goes for many of their other awards.

Also, many more teams get to go home a 'winner' from Disney because N teams all can brag about making it to the FINALS. They can all go home and get on the local news. They can all get on the local news as they head off again to compete the National Finals. Only one (or actually three if they keep the current format) will eventually be able to claim the title of National Champs, but, for a few weeks, they are all winners.

Finally, it is cheaper for Disney and hopefully that will translate into a cheaper Disney package for all teams. It took between 1 and 2 MILLION for Disney to build the complex that we used for the Nationals. It would have cost them very little (relatively speaking) to keep it up for another week. This would allow Disney to spread the costs out a little better and again, hopefully be reflected in a cheaper package for the teams that attend the Nationals Weekends.

Joe J.

[archiver]

Posted by Tom Vanderslice.

Student on team #275, ORHS/AST/Hitachi, from Academy of Science and Technology and Hitachi.

Posted on 5/29/99 1:26 PM MST


In Reply to: and another thing... posted by Joe Johnson on 5/28/99 7:54 PM MST:



Multiple weekends sounds like a really cool idea...gives everybody a
shot at disney etc...but you still have teh problem of $$$...

Just an informal poll...how many teams stretch to get as much $ as
possible to get as much of their teams as possible to disney ONCE??

no offense to you Joe...or the others...but many of you are speaking from
the perspective of the 'rich teams'...another 10 or 15k to send people
for antoher weekend is a big deal but still feasible for you guys...for
the smaller teams its a HUGE stretch...basically...what multiple weekends
does is give everyone a chance to go to a 'regional @ disney' and qualifying
for nationals from there...

and again i'll say...i know something will be necessary eventually...
probably soon...but next year it seems there are other avenues we could
pursue first.

My 2 cents..
Tom

[archiver]

Posted by Fran .

Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode/R.S. Machines.

Posted on 5/31/99 1:16 AM MST


In Reply to: and another thing... posted by Joe Johnson on 5/28/99 7:54 PM MST:



I'm not sure which route is best but I expect FIRST will grow big enough to follow the route that Odessey of the Mind(OM) follows.Every state sends a team for each problem to 'worlds' but they get to States by qualifying through regionals(NH has about 15 regionals). As every school will someday have a team then you could have local qualifying regionals that teams could attend several without major travel expenses(hopefully competition fees won't be so steep). Even State winners would be on several levels, if all these local competitions are being put together after nationals then obviously FIRST can train state groups to run things. OM is similar but simpler..they select
world reps in April with World competition in May so those teams don't have much fundraising time either but they are only sending 7 people per team.
Many Students like the smaller regional competitions better because the smaller scale allows you to really see the competition and not get lost in the huge shuffle of nationals....how many watched nationals on the pit screen and not on the stage..it's different seeing only what the camera allows. At regionals and the small local meets far more people are focused on the match in the arena. Nationals is great to meet everyone but you don't see as much....it is certainly needed to be experienced but surely there is a way to satisfy the need to compete more than once, or twice, or thrice...I can keep going. I guess I'm just rambling but it's food for thought



s






Some more comments about the multiple weekend proposal (can you tell which one I like best ;-):

: More winners.

: FIRST really needs to improve the prizes to teams ratio. Especially in the Chairman's Award area. There are simply too many teams doing too much good work for FIRST not to increase the number of teams that they recognize for this Award. The same goes for many of their other awards.

: Also, many more teams get to go home a 'winner' from Disney because N teams all can brag about making it to the FINALS. They can all go home and get on the local news. They can all get on the local news as they head off again to compete the National Finals. Only one (or actually three if they keep the current format) will eventually be able to claim the title of National Champs, but, for a few weeks, they are all winners.

: Finally, it is cheaper for Disney and hopefully that will translate into a cheaper Disney package for all teams. It took between 1 and 2 MILLION for Disney to build the complex that we used for the Nationals. It would have cost them very little (relatively speaking) to keep it up for another week. This would allow Disney to spread the costs out a little better and again, hopefully be reflected in a cheaper package for the teams that attend the Nationals Weekends.

: Joe J.

[archiver]

Posted by Tom Vanderslice.

Student on team #275, ORHS/AST/Hitachi, from Academy of Science and Technology and Hitachi.

Posted on 5/29/99 1:56 PM MST


In Reply to: some possible alternatives posted by Joe Johnson on 5/28/99 7:36 PM MST:



Ok...basically every proposed idea falls into 2 categories...

1)
Teams don't find out they are going to nationals until fairly soon
before nationals...then they must arrange travel, etc...and things get
even more expensive...now..i really dislike this idea...(see other
messages) but i think it is better than..

2)
Teams qualify for next years nationals this year. This skirts the
'unexpected expenses' problem...but brigns up a lot of issues like...
first a foremost...SENIOR Student's mentality: seniors should be the
leaders on the team...but if the seniors get the mentality of my team
gets rewarded next year for what we do this year for the team...but we
don't get to see anything unless last years team did well also and we
get to go to nationals this year...students become less enthusiastic
when they can't test their machine against this years top machines...

one solution to this problem could be a combination of the two...
something that i kind of thought of while sitting reading these messages
kind of based on the concept of (gee of all 'sports' to choose from) PGA
golf...now i won't claim to know the particulars...but from what i've
gathered...golfers ont eh tour get to stay on if they've won $x amount of
money or placed well enough in different qualifying tournamnets etc...and
if you don't qualify then to get back ont eh tour you have to go through
some qualifying school which i guess is some kind of group of tournaments
where you can prove you belong on the tour (all you golf buffs out there
will have to help this story out some...but you get the idea)...

if we applied this concept to FIRST you could have the 'traditional powerhouses'
the teams that placed well in recent years at both regionals and nationals
and in the chairman's awards etc...and then the regionals can be the
'qualifying school' of sorts...so teams that have done well before KNOW
they can go this year...but teams that haven't or who are rookies still
have a chance at qualifying...now i haven't worked all this out i know
there are still problems with it...but my thinking behind this is that it
would alleviate some of the 'unexpected expenses' problem with not
qualifying until a few months before...while allowing the traditionally good
teams to get they're practice in at regionals etc...and not have to worry
about a hardware problem or some other glitch where they perform poorly
at regionals...but can be fixed...those kinds of things...


another idea i just had about #2 would be to keep the same game a few years
i don't like this solution either...i like the new game each year...
the new challenge...that's what makes it fun...but it is apossibility...
this would really turn it more into a sport that has basically a season
when ther eis a competition ever weekend and you compete for the 'big dance'
or whatever you want to call it...and in the end...that is probably what
we are headed for...the biggest problem is...how much school/work can be
missed for FIRST...but oh well...

I'll stop writing for a while and think some more... ;)

Tom
Team 275

[archiver]

Posted by Bethany Dunning.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #163, Quantum Mechanics, from International Academy and Quantum Consultants/EATON/ITT Industries.

Posted on 5/29/99 4:57 PM MST


In Reply to: Just some thoughts... posted by Tom Vanderslice on 5/29/99 1:56 PM MST:



If nationals absolutetly has to be invitation only, I would maybe suggest having regionals in the spring, followed by Nationals in the fall? Only problem with this is, you get into problems with graduation and such, as well as hurricane season in florida. Ok, rethink (I'm obviously typing as I think here!) How about regionals in the fall, end around Christmas time, so that fall semester is FIRST instead of winter semester, and have Nationals when they are held now? Of course, I agree with Sue Krussell in that I think Nationals is an incredible experience, as good if not better for learning than a regional, gives everyone a chance to meet sooo many other people, exchange ideas, see how other teams are run, see more machines, and oh so much more, and I think an invite-only event should be an absolute last resort to growth.

[archiver]

Posted by Chris.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 6/1/99 6:29 AM MST


In Reply to: Just some thoughts... posted by Tom Vanderslice on 5/29/99 1:56 PM MST:



Proposal 2 sounds like a great idea. It's worked for a long time in golf.

I'm a big golf fan (and an avid golfer), and you got it almost right. The following cases get automatic tour cards for the next year:

1. top 125 on the money list (I think it's 125, I'm not 100% sure).
2. Tournament winners from the previous two years.
3. A winner of a special event within X number of years before (like the Player's Champion gains a 5 year exemption, World Series of Golf Champion gets like a 3 year exemption).
4. The top few (I think 15) on the money list of the Nike Tour (minor league tour).

If you don't fall into any of the three categories, you must go to qualifying school, which is a set of tournaments in which the top few get tour cards.

FIRST could use a similar format and have it be pretty successful. Take the top 100 from Nationals, winners of regionals, top qualifiers from regionals, and give them automatic bids to next year's nationals. The rest of the team would qualify through regionals.

Of course, I don't want to do any of this until the numbers of teams make it absolutely necessary. In the mean time, I would like to see everyone get to go to nationls.

-Chris


: Ok...basically every proposed idea falls into 2 categories...

: 1)
: Teams don't find out they are going to nationals until fairly soon
: before nationals...then they must arrange travel, etc...and things get
: even more expensive...now..i really dislike this idea...(see other
: messages) but i think it is better than..

: 2)
: Teams qualify for next years nationals this year. This skirts the
: 'unexpected expenses' problem...but brigns up a lot of issues like...
: first a foremost...SENIOR Student's mentality: seniors should be the
: leaders on the team...but if the seniors get the mentality of my team
: gets rewarded next year for what we do this year for the team...but we
: don't get to see anything unless last years team did well also and we
: get to go to nationals this year...students become less enthusiastic
: when they can't test their machine against this years top machines...

: one solution to this problem could be a combination of the two...
: something that i kind of thought of while sitting reading these messages
: kind of based on the concept of (gee of all 'sports' to choose from) PGA
: golf...now i won't claim to know the particulars...but from what i've
: gathered...golfers ont eh tour get to stay on if they've won $x amount of
: money or placed well enough in different qualifying tournamnets etc...and
: if you don't qualify then to get back ont eh tour you have to go through
: some qualifying school which i guess is some kind of group of tournaments
: where you can prove you belong on the tour (all you golf buffs out there
: will have to help this story out some...but you get the idea)...

: if we applied this concept to FIRST you could have the 'traditional powerhouses'
: the teams that placed well in recent years at both regionals and nationals
: and in the chairman's awards etc...and then the regionals can be the
: 'qualifying school' of sorts...so teams that have done well before KNOW
: they can go this year...but teams that haven't or who are rookies still
: have a chance at qualifying...now i haven't worked all this out i know
: there are still problems with it...but my thinking behind this is that it
: would alleviate some of the 'unexpected expenses' problem with not
: qualifying until a few months before...while allowing the traditionally good
: teams to get they're practice in at regionals etc...and not have to worry
: about a hardware problem or some other glitch where they perform poorly
: at regionals...but can be fixed...those kinds of things...

:
: another idea i just had about #2 would be to keep the same game a few years
: i don't like this solution either...i like the new game each year...
: the new challenge...that's what makes it fun...but it is apossibility...
: this would really turn it more into a sport that has basically a season
: when ther eis a competition ever weekend and you compete for the 'big dance'
: or whatever you want to call it...and in the end...that is probably what
: we are headed for...the biggest problem is...how much school/work can be
: missed for FIRST...but oh well...

: I'll stop writing for a while and think some more... ;)

: Tom
: Team 275

[archiver]

Posted by MaryEllen.

Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 5/31/99 6:07 AM MST


In Reply to: some possible alternatives posted by Joe Johnson on 5/28/99 7:36 PM MST:



I predict the venue for 2000 National will be the same as this year.
In 2001, they'll move us to a new arena at Wide World of Sports, 40,000
seats with the pit area still in tents.
Nationals will remain open to all for four - five years. From there on,
seeding at Regionals will be the qualifier to attend Nationals.
By then, the game will gain enough national air time to entice
corporations to fund the cost of sending the winners to Nationals.
It's done for other 'fringe' sports - BMX racing, skateboarding,
surfing - to name a few. The winners will lose their team numbers after
regionals and become 'Team Xerox', 'Team AT&T', 'Team Nike', etc.

And for my next prediction, next year's game will be a track meet/obstacle
course with eight to ten robots on the field simultaneously. Obvious winner,
no complicated scoring or explanation to outsiders, multiple tasks, no 9 pm
matches, just one 'stage'. And smaller robots, 50 - 60 lbs. to keep handling
manageable. Solves a multitude of sins. Maybe even a relay-type race to
keep alliances. Sound logical?

[archiver]

Posted by Susanne Krussell.

Coach on team #163, The Quantum Mechanics, from International Academy and Quantum Consultants/Eaton/ITT.

Posted on 5/31/99 10:17 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: some possible alternatives posted by MaryEllen on 5/31/99 6:07 AM MST:



Is this the earliest date anyone has ever posted thoughts about next year's game? Mary Ellen.You are a hopeless FIRST addict!!

[archiver]

Posted by MaryEllen.

Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 5/31/99 12:24 PM MST


In Reply to: Next year's game posted by Susanne Krussell on 5/31/99 10:17 AM MST:



: Is this the earliest date anyone has ever posted thoughts about next year's game? Mary Ellen.You are a hopeless FIRST addict!!

After eating and breathing this for almost two years, it grows on ya!
Between end-of-season party, awards day at our two schools, school board demo
(what should we give them as doorprizes), making pennants to hold two years
of collected buttons, getting a scrapbook put together, ideas for next newsletter,
working on a couple unsuspecting engineers for recruitment, meetings at an
unsponsored school to get a team started, putting together presentation for
that meeting, copying all our photos to CD, work on the multi-team survey
AND tracking down the last 200 tee shirts for the quilt - I still find time
to think up other things to do. I am most definately a FIRST junkie!
I know 12 more - just on my team. Bet I could find a thousand or so.

[archiver]

Posted by Kate Leach.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode / RS Machines.

Posted on 6/3/99 7:43 PM MST


In Reply to: Addict? Well, yeah! posted by MaryEllen on 5/31/99 12:24 PM MST:



Some people call us addicts.. Some people call us junkies.. I like mine better..

Hi, my name is Kate, and I'm a FIRST-a-holic..

I had a few pins down in Florida that I was trading.. 'I'm a member of FIRST-a-holics Anonymous'

Of course, next year.. I'll have more most likely.. But they'll be changing.. One more word will be added.. LIFETIME

-Kate-

[archiver]

Posted by Beccy Rigden (Duct Tape).

Student on team #166 from Merrimack High.

Posted on 6/25/99 2:44 PM MST


In Reply to: I like my terminology better.. posted by Kate Leach on 6/3/99 7:43 PM MST:



Kate,
With WPI? What about us . . . :(

[archiver]

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/31/99 11:52 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: some possible alternatives posted by MaryEllen on 5/31/99 6:07 AM MST:



Usually reliable sources tell me that WDW is committed to FIRST provided that it remains tied to EPCOT.

Disney wants the tie in to the technology angle of FIRST.

Bottom line: Don't count on getting out of the EPCOT parking lot any time soon.

Joe J.

[archiver]

Posted by Nate Smith.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #74, Holland FIRST Robotics, from Holland High School and Haworth, Inc..

Posted on 6/1/99 7:41 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: some possible alternatives posted by MaryEllen on 5/31/99 6:07 AM MST:



: I predict the venue for 2000 National will be the same as this year.
: In 2001, they'll move us to a new arena at Wide World of Sports, 40,000
: seats with the pit area still in tents.

I don't know if they'll make the move(at least to WWofS...from what I saw down there this year, as well as what I remember people posting early this season, WWofS is too far out of the way to get the desired exposure at Disney. With where we are now, everyone going into EPCOT sees a few big tents and probably wonders, 'What's going on down there?'

Also, talking on the boats in EPCOT with a few people who were just on vacation this year, they showed some interest in the event, and said they might stop by before they left for the day. Would people like that make the trek out to WWofS to see something they knew very little about?

Just my two cents...

Nate

[archiver]

Posted by MaryEllen.

Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 6/1/99 5:51 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: some possible alternatives posted by Nate Smith on 6/1/99 7:41 AM MST:



: : I predict the venue for 2000 National will be the same as this year.
: : In 2001, they'll move us to a new arena at Wide World of Sports, 40,000
: : seats with the pit area still in tents.

: I don't know if they'll make the move(at least to WWofS...from what I saw down there this year, as well as what I remember people posting early this season, WWofS is too far out of the way to get the desired exposure at Disney. With where we are now, everyone going into EPCOT sees a few big tents and probably wonders, 'What's going on down there?'

: Also, talking on the boats in EPCOT with a few people who were just on vacation this year, they showed some interest in the event, and said they might stop by before they left for the day. Would people like that make the trek out to WWofS to see something they knew very little about?

: Just my two cents...

: Nate

Disney is making a huge capital investment in WWofS. And they own ABC & ESPN.
Don't put it past them not to make that a big draw in the future. If they
get the new arena finished, they'd be foolish not to put the National there.
One of the BIGGEST complaints was having to kneel in front of the stages.
It fixes too many problems not to be considered.

[archiver]

Posted by Ken Patton.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 6/1/99 3:37 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:




I'm not sure that we are ready for an 'invite-only' or 'qualification-only' Nationals. Seems to me that part of the excitement of FIRST (particularly those who AREN'T yet involved) is that you get to go to Disney World. I know, you and I know that's not what its all about, but this culture that we're trying to change isn't there yet. Lets get more teams first.

I would rather see a way for the competition to handle more teams in the current amount of time allotted. This would keep the travel/food/lodging costs from rising. Some possible ways to do that, in no particular order:

1. More teams on the field at once (alliances is a subset of this)
2. Shorter matches (I know, dumb idea :))
3. Longer days, maybe combined with a staggered, known in advance schedule.
4. Reduce the time between matches (can you say instant scoring?)
5. More fields (although this creates a chaotic, unfocused event)
6. Multiple Florida events
7. An open practice area that runs in parallel to the matches.
8. Any others???

My personal favorite 'growth' idea: Have a 'regional' every week at Disney World. As we add more teams, all of them can still go to Florida. This allows any team to go to Florida. We still have other regionals around the country as demand rises. Disney gets our money week after week, so Mickey can continue to hire copyright lawyers (sorry, got off track there :)). The regionals are used as qualifers for the nationals, and the awards at regionals determine who goes to nationals (this sounds more objective to me than 'invite-only' :)). Nationals could be anywhere.

Ken

[archiver]

Posted by Rick Gibbs.

Engineer on team #145, T-Rx, from Norwich High School, Sherburne-Earlville High School and Procter & Gamble Pharmaceuticals.

Posted on 5/28/99 4:14 PM MST


In Reply to: New Poll posted by PollMaster on 5/27/99 8:30 PM MST:



Personally, I voted 'strongly disagree' - at least until some issues are
addressed. Here's my two cents.

First, here's my big problem with the idea. It would be a shame to limit
a student's opportunity to be a part of an event as impactful and
impressive as the nationals.

Here's another issue:
In the past, it's been very difficult to find decent travel arrangements
with only 4-5 months of advance notice. That time of year in Florida is
very popular, and often reasonably priced tickets just aren't available.
Now cut that time down to 1-2 months (i.e. you won't know until the
regionals whether or not your going to nationals) and many teams will
have problems getting to EPCOT.

Yet another issue. Say your robot has a mechanical problem during a
couple qualification rounds at the regional. That may be enough to knock
you out of the finals and out of the nationals. This will cause teams
to attend multiple regional to ensure that they qualify for the finals.

Maybe there are some other ways to limit the number of teams at
nationals. 1. No rookie teams at nationals - let them get their feet
wet at the regionals first. 2. All teams must compete at regionals in
order to compete at (not qualify for) the nationals. 3. If teams must
qualify for nationals, hold a concilation competition elsewhere at
Disney. The top 10% of the teams from Thursday and Friday can then
qualify for Saturday's finals.

Am I way off base here?

[archiver]

Posted by Beccy Rigden (Duct Tape).

Student on team #166 from Merrimack High.

Posted on 6/3/99 2:32 PM MST


In Reply to: New Poll posted by PollMaster on 5/27/99 8:30 PM MST:



grrr. We had to reserve out hotel rooms in October for nationals. If they are based on qualificaition there is no way for us to get there in time. It's all fine and dandy for students in FL but way up here in NH it's hard to do!!!

[archiver]

Posted by MaryEllen.

Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 6/9/99 4:49 AM MST


In Reply to: New Poll posted by Beccy Rigden (Duct Tape) on 6/3/99 2:32 PM MST:



: grrr. We had to reserve out hotel rooms in October for nationals. If they are based on qualificaition there is no way for us to get there in time. It's all fine and dandy for students in FL but way up here in NH it's hard to do!!!

Why October? If I remember, the deadline for Disney reservations was December.
We even had engineers, who joined after January, get rooms in the same hotel,
on the same floor, as the rest of our team in February and March.
Disney is better at organizing and routing large groups of people better
than the US Marines.

[archiver]

Posted by Fran .

Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode/R.S. Machines.

Posted on 6/9/99 10:05 AM MST


In Reply to: Room Reservations posted by MaryEllen on 6/9/99 4:49 AM MST:




As Team 166's travel coordinator, I corrected Beccy about OCT.....You see last year we had people withou a clue running things ...they did not try to make reservations until Feb which cost us $100 more for less time and we were outside Disney. In order to avoid this problem I started to inquire in Oct. about reservations...no one was allowed to 'book the FIRSTdeal' until Jan. when kickoff happened. Now if you booked in Dec., it wasn't under the FIRST plan but maybe just a regular reservation. We booked
15 rooms which later were reduced to 10 and Disney was happy because they had a waiting list since 1 week after kickoff. Obviously if nationals became invitation only then not so many teams would be booking flights or rooms. As much as its great to watch most teams can't afford a trip just to watch besides this will make the regional presence more important.....they seem like closer knit competitions ..you can remember and follow teams and not get lost in the shuffle. I do feel Disney would need toset aside room for qualifiers over observers

Fran




: : grrr. We had to reserve out hotel rooms in October for nationals. If they are based on qualificaition there is no way for us to get there in time. It's all fine and dandy for students in FL but way up here in NH it's hard to do!!!

: Why October? If I remember, the deadline for Disney reservations was December.
: We even had engineers, who joined after January, get rooms in the same hotel,
: on the same floor, as the rest of our team in February and March.
: Disney is better at organizing and routing large groups of people better
: than the US Marines.

[archiver]

Posted by michael bastoni.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #23, PNTA, from Plymouth North High School and Boston Edison Co.

Posted on 6/6/99 6:39 PM MST


In Reply to: New Poll posted by PollMaster on 5/27/99 8:30 PM MST:



Ahh, an opportunity to wade into what appears to be some deep water,
with strong currents and an undertoe.....hmmmm my kind of conditions.

The Disney invitational sounds good.....as long as there are other,
open venues to participate in.

As for advance reservations...go ahead and make them.

Even if your team isn't invited you should go and participate.
Should'nt you ?

Disney is doing this for the money too, so don't feel too bad about canceling
them 30 days prior to leaving (If you don't get an invitation and feel like sulking)

What I like as a coach, is that the invitational is a real motivator...One
we might need in the future.


Here's what I think. (For what it's worth)

I think the corporate sponsor wants to at least believe that the students
are doing more than just helping the engineers build the robot and saying
that they are inspired to work hard and be good engineers....I think
the FIRST effort can accomplish more than this...and on most teams it does.

That's exactly why an invitational national at say the Geographical center
of North America...might be the right answer...It would serve as the reward
for the teams who made a concious efforts to achieve...to do the 8 THINGS
FIRST ASKS OF EVERY TEAM. Or for those teams who fielded an effective Robot.
(the '8 things' refers to a posting 5/13/99 by Michael Bastoni, you can find it
using the built in search engine on the tool bar above. THIS WEB SITE IS AWESOME
BRANDON)

An Invitational National would send a message that working hard, working diligently,
and acquiring skills, is the real ticket to the nationals...

You go to the nationals because you earned it through what you learned or
tried to learn. Or through designing and building a
competetive robot. Not simply because you raised enough money or can afford to go.

Here's my support for this POV. At the 2007 games (the MIT design competition
that FIRST is modeled after) ANY student who fields a working robot receives
an A for a grade...That's what Alex Slocum the Mech Prof. who runs the event said.
Well...the implication is that if you do not field a working robot, maybe
you do not get an A....or maybe you can get an A another way...fact is,
only A's participate...FIRST does not have anything analagous to this A thing...and
it's an important ingredient...an Invitation to the Nationals is anaogous
to the A....I doubt the 'plywood box' would argue.

And if you think the nationals is important to the kids...hey by all means
come down and watch....no one is saying you can't come...in fact non invited
teams should come...I'd certainly want to be there even if our team did'nt make it.

And a cool cornfield in South Idaho, or Wyoming sounds better than a hot
tarmack in Florida...where would you want to kneel?

Mr. B

[archiver]

Posted by Frank Toussaint.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Wheeling and Rolling Meadows and Motorola .

Posted on 6/7/99 8:06 AM MST


In Reply to: invitationals/nationals posted by michael bastoni on 6/6/99 6:39 PM MST:



One problem with invitationals is that a smaller percentage of rookie
teams would be likely to be invited. There would be less incentive for
new teams to form without that hot dog at the end of the road.

[archiver]

Posted by michael bastoni.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #23, PNTA, from Plymouth North High School and Boston Edison Co.

Posted on 6/8/99 4:31 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: invitationals/nationals posted by Frank Toussaint on 6/7/99 8:06 AM MST:



Frank,

You may indeed have the correct insight regarding the rookie
issue and the nationals...However, I' like to offer this observation.

High school and college athletes usually do not expect to make the starting
varsity squad their freshman year. The band and chorus kids don't
play and sing lead their freshman year, as a rule. They all go through
the 'Learning Curve'

When I first entered the production world (I actually had a life in the
private sector) I did not manage important projects my first day on the job....

Rookies who field good robots, rookies who distinguish themselves should
be invited to the nationals....and....I am sure that for the most part, folks
who sponsor, coach and participate in the FIRST program would agree that
the competetive nature of the games IS NOT the most important aspect of
the game.

But.....

We are talking about the nationals....where we might have the opportunity
to come together and celebrate what is good, even what is best about the program
we all participate in....Perhaps that should be like the 'Varsity' game,
the game where they 'sell tickets' not like the freshman games or the
practice recitals....but the culminating activity...like the Thanksgiving
day football game.

As you know Frank, because your team was there in 92',there are
still some teams in this program who remember when
a crowded gymnasium in Manchester New Hampshire was the end of the road.
In fact...it was the only stop in the whole route....and you grew this
program from those humble beginings...and you were rookies too...who
came to play because it was the right thing to do, not because they were
going to Disney.

Remember too that there have been dozens of 1 year wonder teams, teams
who only did 1 year for whatever reasons even though they had full
participation rights...and they are not playing now despite the fact they
were encouraged to attend the nationals.

So....

Let's give those rookie teams of the future the respect they deserve,
let's believe they are coming to play for the right reasons, not because
of a promise to ......well, to kneel in the hot sun, but because they
believe it's the right thing to do...wether or not they make the nationals.

Let's not compromise the celebration of excellence because we fear that
first year teams are only joining up to attend the nationals...let's
celebrate achievement and give those teams something to shoot for.

mr.b

[archiver]

Posted by Frank Toussaint.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Wheeling and Rolling Meadows and Motorola .

Posted on 6/8/99 1:41 PM MST


In Reply to: perhaps, but posted by michael bastoni on 6/8/99 4:31 AM MST:



A wise man once said
quote:
We need to play the game alot......it's the preparation to playing time
ratio and costs that I wish to address at this moment.

A minimum of 10 weeks prep time (building the machine, the animation,
the CA, the FFL, the fund raising, the 'Community Events' (I so hate that
term)...all for what....FOR 1 or 2 brief moments of thrilling excitement
and INSPIRATION.?

Think about this good people....tens of thousands of dollars, weeks of
planning preparation, and fabrication....for 1 or 2 events....for
18 minutes of machine running time?

It borders on insane.. why do you think it's so hard to recruit teams?
Please ponder the ramifications here....please think about this simple
fact for a day, a week, and then present the remedy you would offer?

Here's mine.

PLAY WITH THE DARN MACHINE MORE.
unquote

The nationals are the ultimate occasion on which the machines are played.
Building the machines without playing them at the nationals is like
a day without sunshine and a day without sunshine is like... night.

[archiver]

Posted by michael bastoni.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #23, PNTA, from Plymouth North High School and Boston Edison Co.

Posted on 6/8/99 6:07 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: perhaps, but posted by Frank Toussaint on 6/8/99 1:41 PM MST:



Frank,

Really...what can one say...I'm glad you went into
a technical career...though you'd have made a great lawyer.
And your a good man....... I did qualify my POV... the Nationals would
only work as invitationals IF there were other venues...
read...'other chances to play'

I certainly appreciate your point...it is well made, well taken,
and I sheepishly admit....well stated...:)

Mr.b

[archiver]

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 6/8/99 7:35 PM MST


In Reply to: invitationals/nationals posted by michael bastoni on 6/6/99 6:39 PM MST:



Hey Mike,

Always stirring the pot, aren't you?

I do agree that the way forward is to have an invitation only Nationals that is sufficiently prestigeous to inspire kid regardless of the location.

By the way, I was flipping channels over the weekend and I came accross two competitions that were on ESPN2 that give me hope of some serious TV time for FIRST, The Sport.

The World's Strongest Man competition and Xtreme Bicycling. Both had games that were stranger, harder to follow, harder to judge, etc. AND Both had order of magnitude smaller crowds that we have in FIRST.

With the right production help, we could easily beat these sports in the TV game.

An invitation only Nationals is a necessary step to getting on TV in my opinion and TV is a necessary step to the cultural change that is central to mission of FIRST.

So...

Let's make 2000 the year FIRST takes this important step.

Joe J.