First Official 2012 Game Hint

[Andrew Lawrence]

Your opponent scored on you in 2006 (opposite of 2010). If you didn't clear the ball corral fast enough, the opponents score would keep going up.

Oh.... :\

[EricH]

There was a match replayed that year... in finals... because the lower goal counted 5 balls too many in automode. 4 high (12 points) versus 10 low (10 points), and 10 low won autonomous (score 15 points). Yes. This was in a regional finals match. The way the game was set up, this screwed up the entire match. After this incident and others like it, a delay to allow for the manual counters to report in was added.

It wasn't the hardware, IIRC, but the software that didn't quite work properly.

[FRC4ME]

Whoa...I think this is the most substantial game hint I've seen. Not a cryptic phrase or an obscure photograph, but a parts list for the field? In a plainly readable format?

This is too easy. It must be a decoy. The real game hint is obviously steganographically encoded in the image. Come on CD'ers, start cracking...

[bhaidet]

Could the "Very high speed" of the counter not refer to how many times it can count in a second but its response time to a change of input? I am not sure exactly how it works, but the high speed may just mean that whatever triggers the sensor (probably photogate) is only blocking the photogate for a short time, meaning that it is small and/or moving fast.

Even launching a few balls into a goal a second is "fast" from the game prospective, but is nothing for a computer (and the parts list had LAN adapters that enabled direct IO, I believe somebody posted.) There must be some reason for FIRST to add extra circuitry between the computer and the sensor. If the network is not fast enough to register a goal with whatever sensor it is, the adding of a "quantizing" counter between them would eliminate this problem.

People said that in Aim High the counters were unreliable, does anyone know why? was it a speed-of-signal-pulse issue?

If used like this, this part seems like it would probably have been inserted as a tweak as the GDC played and tested (and figured that it wouldn't work well without it). I can see it happening.




photogate input: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ._____/\__________

Time the network is looking for a response (when high): ----____----____-

it would not be recorded because the pulse happens when the network is not listening



with the "quantizer"

photogate input: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ._____/\__________
signal to network: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ._____/----\______

Time the network is looking for a response (when high): ----____----____-

this time the signal and the async time the network is "looking" line up, so there will be a score detected.

[ratdude747]

I had an idea:

what if the high speed sensors are used to monitor robots driving though lanes? like a 1-robot-per-lane version of overdrive?

just a thought...

[zaphodp.jensen]

I had an idea:

what if the high speed sensors are used to monitor robots driving though lanes? like a 1-robot-per-lane version of overdrive?

just a thought...

It would be hard to drive through a lane that was wide enough for only one robot to drive through and long... It was fairly hard to squeeze through in between the tower and the perimeter last year, and that was slightly wider than 1 robot wide, and very narrow...

[rcmolloy]

How about the bottlenecks in Aim High? Pokey-pokey stick anyone?

Wasn't around for Aim High, however it looks as if they all funneled into a mesh type netting. I believe that pokey pokey stick helped clear the bunches of balls that were restricted from the netting.

Correct me if I am wrong Gary.

I tried to find a picture of a 2006 low goal but was unable to. If memory serves me, the goal had 2-3 tunnel like structures for balls to go through, each with it's own photo sensor. Don't think I ever saw one jam up, even when 20-ish balls were dumped in at once.

2010's goals were never designed for multiple game pieces to pass through, or at least I don't think they were. It doesn't help that the memory foam made it really easy to jam two balls into the goal pretty tightly.

Dustin,

Like above, never was able to view the 2006 goals even with the internet searches these days. I was just stating that in 2010 there was a certain bottle neck that the balls could eventually go through one by one counting each separately mainly referring to the fact that game pieces will most likely be scored one by one.

[Lil' Lavery]

Ladder logic n. archaic 1. How to program old stuff, slowly. 2. The 1998 FRC game.

So you can imagine my sense of revulsion when I saw the RSLogix stuff. Fortunately, I think FIRST is going to keep it far from the robots. Its presence implies to me that the game elements need to be processed/scored in a way that occurs too rapidly for humans—hence the sensors and PLC stuff—yet it's important enough to the game that teams will need it after kickoff to test with.

You're aware that RSLogix5000 can use other programming methods, including structured text, right? And I'm curious as to why you'd want FIRST to keep a software package used frequently in industry away from teams, especially if your basis is simply because it uses ladder logic. It's not as if function block programming, as many teams use in LabView, is any better.

I'm curious to how long RSLogix has been used by FIRST HQ.

[notmattlythgoe]

I had mentioned this to AdamHeard yesterday. However, multiple items can be scored but have to eventually pass through the photosensors one at a time. It is very possible that this could be achieved with a bottleneck effect like in 2010. The only downside is there may be a jammage of game pieces.

Yeah, that was kind of my point. Pieces will need to be fed one at a time into the sensors.

[linuxboy]

Ladder logic n. archaic 1. How to program old stuff, slowly. 2. The 1998 FRC game.

So you can imagine my sense of revulsion when I saw the RSLogix stuff. Fortunately, I think FIRST is going to keep it far from the robots. Its presence implies to me that the game elements need to be processed/scored in a way that occurs too rapidly for humans—hence the sensors and PLC stuff—yet it's important enough to the game that teams will need it after kickoff to test with.

If I remember correctly from a diagram I saw, the RSLogix controllers are inside the scorpion case to communicate with the SCCs and other field electronics and whatnot. From the qtys it doesn't look like each team will get one, there are two standard RSLogix controllers, one for each new field.

Oliver

[HumblePie]

1972 to the present is a bit more than 20 years!

Wait........this can't be.....I was only a kid when Pong came out, and I'm how old now?.....oops. Proofreading is your friend folks. It's heck to get old.

[HumblePie]

On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.

[Taylor]

On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.

That line of thinking is both awesome and evil. I like it yet I hate it. Good work.

[notmattlythgoe]

On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.

I'd love for the GDC to throw us a chassis curve-ball. Make people rethink their chassis designs.

[ttldomination]

I'd love for the GDC to throw us a chassis curve-ball. Make people rethink their chassis designs.

The thing about a curveball is that it's going to be thrown to everyone.

If you throw Pujols a nasty curveball and he misses, chances are very good that the rookie who just came out of AAA will also tighten up and miss.

- Sunny G.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I'd love for the GDC to throw us a chassis curve-ball. Make people rethink their chassis designs.

I'd love for them NOT to. I've planning out many different chassis for our team to use for this year, if applicable, and I don't want to see a smaller chassis ruin it! :ahh:

[notmattlythgoe]

I'd love for them NOT to. I've planning out many different chassis for our team to use for this year, if applicable, and I don't want to see a smaller chassis ruin it! :ahh:

Exactly why it would be good if they did it.

[Sandahl]

Why do you think they have a Quantity collumn?

[notmattlythgoe]

The thing about a curveball is that it's going to be thrown to everyone.

If you throw Pujols a nasty curveball and he misses, chances are very good that the rookie who just came out of AAA will also tighten up and miss.

- Sunny G.

I don't mean that they should make it extremely difficult to make a chassis, just something different than the current field, kind of like '09.

[EricH]

Wasn't around for Aim High, however it looks as if they all funneled into a mesh type netting. I believe that pokey pokey stick helped clear the bunches of balls that were restricted from the netting.

Correct me if I am wrong Gary.

I was around, and that's sort of it, but not really.

The back of the goal was netting, but the exit was at the bottom (a sloped ramp led to a hole, which dropped balls one at a time through a tube to a trash can or tote in the player station). Due to the size of the hole, the jams tended to happen down there. Poking the pile usually allowed one at a time to drop in with no further effort (unless you had one of the Triplets, 254/968, and Pink or Killer Bees all opening fire--then you needed to be very careful with the stick to avoid descoring balls).

Why do you think they have a Quantity collumn?To confuse us. No, actually: This is likely an exact quantity request list; when you fill one out, you put the part number, the quantity, and the price (and maybe a few other things like number on the list) for each and every item. Now, we don't need to know price (besides the fact we can look it up by part number if needed), and the quantity will tell us some of what is going on/where the part is used.

[Tristan Lall]

You're aware that RSLogix5000 can use other programming methods, including structured text, right? And I'm curious as to why you'd want FIRST to keep a software package used frequently in industry away from teams, especially if your basis is simply because it uses ladder logic. It's not as if function block programming, as many teams use in LabView, is any better.For all but the simplest tasks, ladder logic is pretty convincingly inferior to other types of programming that are possible on modern PLCs or computers running RTOSs; even for the simplest tasks, it's not universally better. I was going by Chris Elston's post referring to the fact that ladder logic is used on this hardware. If it does support other things, then that's excellent. If the behaviour of the hardware is identical using various programming methods, then that's even better. (So that implementing something in ladder logic wouldn't be necessary to achieving results equivalent to the competition setup. I doubt this is true, though, because most compilers for functional languages optimize automatically, which I have not known to be true for ladder logic—probably by design. Without having seen the application, I don't know if these differences will matter in the slightest.)

Incidentally, being frequently used in industry is not a sufficient reason to encourage teams to try something. Industry does lots of inefficient, uneconomical or otherwise illogical things because it has constraints that don't apply to teams or students learning engineering methods. Furthermore, assuming a finite amount of time to learn industrial techniques, it's not necessarily a good idea to split efforts between platforms.

[HumblePie]

For all but the simplest tasks, ladder logic is pretty convincingly inferior

I think we're looking at this all wrong........ if ladder logic is so outdated, why include it in the hint? Maybe that's the name of the game "Ladder Logic".... The endgame involves no stairs, no ramps.......it's ladders!: :eek:

[EricH]

I think we're looking at this all wrong........ if ladder logic is so outdated, why include it in the hint? Maybe that's the name of the game "Ladder Logic".... The endgame involves no stairs, no ramps.......it's ladders!: :eek:
They won't use that name. That's 1998's game. The very last game of the B.A. era, in fact.

B.A.: Before Alliances

[Jon Stratis]

On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.

Keep in mind that Rack 'n Roll had different bumper rules than we enjoy today - specifically, you were not required to have bumpers around the entire robot. In fact, standard bumpers weren't even required at all - they were optional! As a result, many teams ended up with a chassis design that allowed a gap in the front which made tube mechanisms easier and more protected (as some of the mechanism would be recessed within the frame, with only the rollers sticking out).

The cRio is smaller, but the overall footprint required for the electronics is larger than it was with the old IFI system - Jaguars are larger than Victors, the PDB is larger than the distribution board we used to use, the cRio (even the new one) is significantly larger (in 3 dimensions) than the old robot controller - plus you have to have a digital sidecar attached, which increases the footprint even more.

With the KitBot chassis, I don't think the GDC is worried about recirculated chassis designs - We've used the exact same chassis (the KitBot) 4/5 years our team's been around!

[Lil' Lavery]

For all but the simplest tasks, ladder logic is pretty convincingly inferior to other types of programming that are possible on modern PLCs or computers running RTOSs; even for the simplest tasks, it's not universally better. I was going by Chris Elston's post referring to the fact that ladder logic is used on this hardware. If it does support other things, then that's excellent. If the behaviour of the hardware is identical using various programming methods, then that's even better. (So that implementing something in ladder logic wouldn't be necessary to achieving results equivalent to the competition setup. I doubt this is true, though, because most compilers for functional languages optimize automatically, which I have not known to be true for ladder logic—probably by design. Without having seen the application, I don't know if these differences will matter in the slightest.)

Incidentally, being frequently used in industry is not a sufficient reason to encourage teams to try something. Industry does lots of inefficient, uneconomical or otherwise illogical things because it has constraints that don't apply to teams or students learning engineering methods. Furthermore, assuming a finite amount of time to learn industrial techniques, it's not necessarily a good idea to split efforts between platforms.

I apologize if I missed the PLC on the parts list, but all I saw was RS Logix 5000, which is a software package. Not hardware.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Sorry for joining in late...

Not that I'm debating your point, but there is some logic behind connecting AM's new Pneumatic wheel to the 2012 Game.

In 2009, when everyone was forced to use the same wheel, AM built a custom wheel and was the sole supplier for it.

That being said, there has been a market in FRC for Pneumatic wheels since the pre-alliance days. Coming out with a pre-hubbed easy to use Pneumatic Wheel is just good business.

Dustin, I KNOW you heard the discussion in our cast a couple weeks back about the 2009 wheels. I'm pretty sure he outlined exactly what happened there. http://ewcp.org/blog/2011/11/13/inside-an-frc-supplier-andymark/

Warning: My next two comments add no value.


Maybe the endgame could be throwing minibots into some mayan sacrifice fire to prevent the world from ending. Then we ccould rid the world of the minibot problem once and for all!

I like where this is going...

And the bumper rules...

... and again.

[Mr B]

The Rockwell stuff is probably used for the field. Although ladder logic and such may not be cutting edge technology, it is very reliable and is used extensively in factory automation. The sensors do indicate that there will be some sort of flying object to be counted (I'm so happy). I wonder if they will finally use footballs. For years Dean has mentioned that FIRST is modeled after professional sports, and he sometimes references the NFL. A football throwing game would be both a challenge and a blast to play. Poof balls would be safe, but I do remember shredding several of them during Aim High. All of our practice balls ended up looking like asteroids.:D

Something to keep in mind though... the game design committee went through some pretty dramatic changes last year. This game could be like nothing we've seen. I just hope it can come close to the awesomeness we have seen in the past.

[Tristan Lall]

I apologize if I missed the PLC on the parts list, but all I saw was RS Logix 5000, which is a software package. Not hardware.I was assuming that the only application for RS Logix was to program PLC hardware (comparable stuff is used for PCs running RTOSs). However, I don't know with certainty whether that is correct. True, they don't appear to be getting any PLCs for free from Rockwell.

[Ninja_Bait]

On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.

I like the sound of this, too. Perhaps they will set up something where a normal-sized robot will do fine, so new teams don't have to make the big adjustment, but also add a tunnel or a zone of some sort that is only navigable by a smaller robot - an elfbot, maybe? :cool:

[pfreivald]

Endgame: Minibots must climb up a ladder without touching the side rails...

[Ninja_Bait]

Endgame: Minibots must climb up a ladder without touching the side rails...

That's an interesting challenge. I can think of a few ways to do it, but I can't help but hate that everyone will have the exact same minibot by Nats.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Something to keep in mind though... the game design committee went through some pretty dramatic changes last year. This game could be like nothing we've seen. I just hope it can come close to the awesomeness we have seen in the past.

True. While I do like the old GDC, I'd like to see what new innovations and ideas come up. Or, if you're not as optimistic, see what horrible things may occur. You know the horrible thoughts for game designs you've had before. People's minds can be scary places where lane violations are in every match, and all minibots look the same. *shiver

[DavisC]

Hmm... Extra thought, we've all been looking at this 1 way (how will each part be used?).
Anyone looking into What is NOT on the list? (what isn't on it that was in Aim High/Breakaway?)

[zaphodp.jensen]

Hmm... Extra thought, we've all been looking at this 1 way (how will each part be used?).
Anyone looking into What is NOT on the list? (what isn't on it that was in Aim High/Breakaway?)

One slight problem, but your suggestion is still workable. There are thousands of possible parts that could be used, and that's just coming from Rockwell...

[Andrew Lawrence]

One slight problem, but your suggestion is still workable. There are thousands of possible parts that could be used, and that's just coming from Rockwell...

I think what he means is we can look at the previous games, and rule out objects/ideas that need pieces not in the new list.

For example, if we were playing a remade version of Triple Play, and had the field parts list, and didn't see the pressure plates, we could see that the pressure pads used for human loading wouldn't be in the new game, thereby eliminating that from the equation.

Still not an accurate thing to do, but it does something, I guess.

[DavisC]

A random note.. But I found some prelude to Aim High #2.
Gotta see this: the mythbusters, a cannon, cannonball, and some bad aim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sCeTyAXFUI

see this too about it: http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=mythbusters%20cannonball&tnr=21&vid=1452592595090&l=45&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fvideos%2Fthumb nail.aspx%3Fq%3D1452592595090%26id%3D4cf24faf030d4 ccbd0c92af1a5d88509%26bid%3DmiJR0IapWatu1Q%26bn%3D Thumb%26url%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fabcnews.go.com%25 2fVideo%252fplayerIndex%253fid%253d15103614&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com%2FVideo%2FplayerI ndex%3Fid%3D15103614&sigr=11j6955nb&newfp=1&tit=Cannonball+Experiment+Goes+Wrong

[Tetraman]

True. While I do like the old GDC, I'd like to see what new innovations and ideas come up. Or, if you're not as optimistic, see what horrible things may occur. You know the horrible thoughts for game designs you've had before. People's minds can be scary places where lane violations are in every match, and all minibots look the same. *shiver

My thought is, they are going to rehash an older game, but with a new concept. The first year as a new GDC is probably a little uneasy, so they might be revamping an older game with new concepts, game mechanics and end game. That's why they are designing the next year's game already, so early, because that year might be a whole new game all together.

of course...speculation...

[BJC]

My thought is, they are going to rehash an older game, but with a new concept. The first year as a new GDC is probably a little uneasy, so they might be revamping an older game with new concepts, game mechanics and end game. That's why they are designing the next year's game already, so early, because that year might be a whole new game all together.

of course...speculation...

How many new people are actually on the GDC? I thought that the majority were still there..

[Simspi182]

I don't know what to think about it but combined with the introduction of the kinect, plus the new FRC game hint (which includes a bunch of lights) I think that I can expect something very unexpected!!!

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/kinect

[Marc S.]

I like the sound of this, too. Perhaps they will set up something where a normal-sized robot will do fine, so new teams don't have to make the big adjustment, but also add a tunnel or a zone of some sort that is only navigable by a smaller robot - an elfbot, maybe? :cool:

Please no, 2010 was a real pain.

[Ninja_Bait]

Please no, 2010 was a real pain.

Amen to that, but small robots are still cool (THRUST's Delta in 2010 or Tumbleweed in 2008, for example.)

[Jared Russell]

The sensors do indicate that there will be some sort of flying object to be counted (I'm so happy). I wonder if they will finally use footballs. For years Dean has mentioned that FIRST is modeled after professional sports, and he sometimes references the NFL. A football throwing game would be both a challenge and a blast to play. Poof balls would be safe, but I do remember shredding several of them during Aim High. All of our practice balls ended up looking like asteroids.:D

I have often thought about using footballs as well. The problem is, I struggle to think of reliable ways to count footballs using this hardware (they don't roll through counter chutes the same way as a round ball). If I were the GDC and I wanted to use footballs, I would probably design the game around static scoring.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I have often thought about using footballs as well. The problem is, I struggle to think of reliable ways to count footballs using this hardware (they don't roll through counter chutes the same way as a round ball). If I were the GDC and I wanted to use footballs, I would probably design the game around static scoring.

Maybe instead of rolling them back onto the field, the human players throw them! Like the tubes in Logomotion.

[Jared Russell]

Maybe instead of rolling them back onto the field, the human players throw them! Like the tubes in Logomotion.

I'm not that worried about getting them back onto the field; moreso concerned that reliably counting them one at a time using a narrow IR beam would pose a fairly significant engineering challenge (which would be a dual to the challenge that teams would then have to solve in how to collect and orient football game pieces). If you have a chute that forces the balls into a constant orientation for counting, there may be jamming problems when a large number of balls are scored at once. If you just let the balls fall in whatever orientation they want, your counter runs the risk of double counting if balls are rotating as they fall.

Though I suppose they could go the Breakaway route, and make the counting of balls occur when the humans are putting the balls back onto the field. Hmm... :D

[Walter Deitzler]

Maybe instead of rolling them back onto the field, the human players throw them! Like the tubes in Logomotion.

I see robot damage in our future...

[thefro526]

Though I suppose they could go the Breakaway route, and make the counting of balls occur when the humans are putting the balls back onto the field. Hmm... :D

IIRC, Breakaway's counting, at least for scoring was done in the goals.

The sensor on the ball return was only to ensure that you weren't holding onto the ball for longer than 15 seconds or so, right?

Had the score counter been on the ball return, that would've meant that any ball scored in the last 15 seconds of the match had to be returned to the field, which didn't always happen...?

[notmattlythgoe]

I'm not that worried about getting them back onto the field; moreso concerned that reliably counting them one at a time using a narrow IR beam would pose a fairly significant engineering challenge (which would be a dual to the challenge that teams would then have to solve in how to collect and orient football game pieces). If you have a chute that forces the balls into a constant orientation for counting, there may be jamming problems when a large number of balls are scored at once. If you just let the balls fall in whatever orientation they want, your counter runs the risk of double counting if balls are rotating as they fall.

Though I suppose they could go the Breakaway route, and make the counting of balls occur when the humans are putting the balls back onto the field. Hmm... :D

Breakaway used counters for going into the goal and back onto the field. There was the penalty for holding them too long.

[Jared Russell]

Breakaway used counters for going into the goal and back onto the field. There was the penalty for holding them too long.

Right, but it is feasible to use the return counter as the scoring counter (in fact, this is what happened at many offseasons that didn't have a full FIRST field).

[PAR_WIG1350]

Whoa...I think this is the most substantial game hint I've seen. Not a cryptic phrase or an obscure photograph, but a parts list for the field? In a plainly readable format?

This is too easy. It must be a decoy. The real game hint is obviously steganographically encoded in the image. Come on CD'ers, start cracking...

I did look into stenography even before my first post in this thread (#184), the program was complaining that the file extension was .jpg instead of .JPG, so I gave up.

[Ninja_Bait]

I'm not that worried about getting them back onto the field; moreso concerned that reliably counting them one at a time using a narrow IR beam would pose a fairly significant engineering challenge (which would be a dual to the challenge that teams would then have to solve in how to collect and orient football game pieces). If you have a chute that forces the balls into a constant orientation for counting, there may be jamming problems when a large number of balls are scored at once. If you just let the balls fall in whatever orientation they want, your counter runs the risk of double counting if balls are rotating as they fall.

Though I suppose they could go the Breakaway route, and make the counting of balls occur when the humans are putting the balls back onto the field. Hmm... :D

The photogates can solve that if there's a goalpost type goal. Instead of rolling down a chute, they just pass through a hole or between a pair of uprights, and get picked up by the sensors.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I see robot damage in our future...

Someone probably said the same when someone suggested trackballs in 2008! Imagine your robot getting hit with a football vs. a trackball.

Or worse, do what our robot did: Take a soccer ball straight to the hanging mechanism in 2010. :p

Bottom line is for the most part, if there's flying/moving objects, something CAN get damaged. Doesn't mean it will.

[plnyyanks]

Bottom line is for the most part, if there's flying/moving objects, something CAN get damaged. Doesn't mean it will.
But Murphy's Law says that you'll be one match from winning your Regional, when your robot WILL get damaged. Design with durability in mind. Plan for the worst, hope for the best (but, like our coach always says: "hope is not a strategy").

[Andrew Lawrence]

But Murphy's Law says that you'll be one match from winning your Regional, when your robot WILL get damaged. Design with durability in mind. Plan for the worst, hope for the best (but, like our coach always says: "hope is not a strategy").

Oh, how I LOVE Murphy's Law! :D Everything bad happening almost exactly when it is at the most inopportune (Vocab word, my English teacher will be so proud!) time.

Somewhere, in a grave far away, Murphy is laughing at us.

[IndySam]

But Murphy's Law says that you'll be one match from winning your Regional, when your robot WILL get damaged. Design with durability in mind. Plan for the worst, hope for the best (but, like our coach always says: "hope is not a strategy").

I'm going to disagree with your coach. Hope is a strategy, just not a very good one :)

[Sean Raia]

This game hint has been pretty uninspiring so far :-(

Is there a reason for the 2 extra high speed counters? Why not just 250?
That seems like the last thing that is left to dissect on this hint.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Dear GDC,
We've extensively scrutinized the game hint you gave us, and have so far extracted about 98% of the information available on it, current knowledge permitting. Therefore, we would appreciate it if you released the second game hint before we start getting bored, and the crowd starts dying down. It is for your best interest in which I say, "RELEASE ANOTHER GAME HINT!!!!".

Thanks!

Best regards,
Andrew Lawrence

P.S: Tell Dean I said Hi! :D

[Sean Raia]

That extra two must have been ordered to send us a message of some sort, it does not add up no matter how you slice it...

2 extra counters, its got to mean something.

OR
It's late and i am grasping at straws to revive the discussion on this hint.

EDIT: Two more teams on the field? Not likely, but that's the direction my thoughts are going.

[WizenedEE]

We may want to keep in mind that this might not be everything FIRST "ordered" since it's just the parts that Rockwell was gracious enough to donate. Maybe they needed 1000 of a part and Rockwell agreed to give them 250.

[DavisC]

Backups? Idk, a new game hint must be released tomorrow or else I will fall into depression over the weekend...

And actually, the blog never truly states that the List is THIS years parts. I guess it is possible this is actually a list from a year like Aim High (but I doubt this is the case)

[plnyyanks]

Backups? Idk, a new game hint must be released tomorrow or else I will fall into depression over the weekend...

Once upon a time, we could call on Super Dave (http://www.factorfantasy.com/thedavegallery/photos/superdave.jpg) to save the day, but alas, we are all now at the mercy of the GDC.

[pfreivald]

Speaking of donations, if any of y'all haven't taken advantage of Gates's offer, it's great! They're allowing ~20-ish products, and some of those sprockets are awfully darn expensive!

It's allowing us to prototype an octocanum modification we've been wanting to do for a while.

So, yeah. Not about the game hint, but I saw the word 'donations' and thought, "DOOOOOOOooooooo it!"

[EricH]

Actually, back in my day, we waited for Lavery Claus (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40927) to give us hints.

(Now it seems that jolly St. Bill has to fill in the gap :p...)

[akoscielski3]

This may have already been said (as im am not going to read every single post, sorry). but i think that we are suppose to be looking more at the chart, rather than the parts in it. though with the high speed counting things it does seem to be something like an Aim High game (which would be awesome! i loved that game, maybe cause it was the first FRC game i saw live). for the chart idea it could mean something with stacking game pieces onto one another, but then where would the very fast counters be in play? maybe end game?

[MattC9]

This may have already been said (as im am not going to read every single post, sorry). but i think that we are suppose to be looking more at the chart, rather than the parts in it. though with the high speed counting things it does seem to be something like an Aim High game (which would be awesome! i loved that game, maybe cause it was the first FRC game i saw live). for the chart idea it could mean something with stacking game pieces onto one another, but then where would the very fast counters be in play? maybe end game?

Can we find old documentation on the aim high fields?

[plnyyanks]

Can we find old documentation on the aim high fields?

Aim High Game Documents (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/2006-first-robotics-competition-manual-and-related-documents)

Official Field Drawings (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/official-first-drawings-documents-build-and-official-first-field)

[Miksoko]

What if there is a tunnel?
There are a lot of amber lights and a lot of photoswitches- which monitor light in a given spot. This would work most accurately in a full dark situtation which is not possible in a game setting. To get full dark, I propose that as a speculation, they have a tunnel, and blind operations.

[UBY]

what will the very high speed counter be used for? I was wondering if there would be tennis balls, racketballs, golf balls?

[zaphodp.jensen]

What if there is a tunnel?
There are a lot of amber lights and a lot of photoswitches- which monitor light in a given spot. This would work most accurately in a full dark situtation which is not possible in a game setting. To get full dark, I propose that as a speculation, they have a tunnel, and blind operations.


The Amber lights are found on all of the competition fields, under the stack lights at the Alliance Stations. There are 6 Per Field. That is 12 for the two new fields.

Also, the photoswitches are used for detecting proximity, and or line following. They are not analog parts, so they are not useful for detecting light levels. How they work is they send out an IR beam, and when they get a reflection that is above a set threshold amount, they turn on.

And if we had a tunnel long enough for it to be dark, how would the field get reset, how would the spectators see, and the operators operate?

[Jon Stratis]

what will the very high speed counter be used for? I was wondering if there would be tennis balls, racketballs, golf balls?

Small balls are a possibility, but also consider the safety aspect of any game piece... a golf ball that gets shot out into the crowd (or at a ref!) could injure someone. If you've ever played tennis or racquetball, you know those can sting pretty good too, when hit hard!

Foam balls - like those used in many Nerf toys - can be launched pretty quickly, yet won't hurt much if a shot goes wrong. But those are probably too easily obtained and frequently stocked to be used as a FIRST game piece :p

[zaphodp.jensen]

QBY, please read the posts before. This has been discussed heavily before your post.

[notmattlythgoe]

Small balls are a possibility, but also consider the safety aspect of any game piece... a golf ball that gets shot out into the crowd (or at a ref!) could injure someone. If you've ever played tennis or racquetball, you know those can sting pretty good too, when hit hard!

Foam balls - like those used in many Nerf toys - can be launched pretty quickly, yet won't hurt much if a shot goes wrong. But those are probably too easily obtained and frequently stocked to be used as a FIRST game piece :p

What says they have to be shot though? What if they are going to be fed into a bucket of some sort instead of a goal on a wall.

[Jon Stratis]

Even if they are going into a bucket, don't you think that some team is going to have the bright idea that shooting them in from half a field away will allow them to score more points (as they won't have to drive right up to the bucket)?

I've been hit with the game pieces (intentionally or accidentally) for every game for the past 5 years. None of them have really posed an injury threat if something went wrong - the closest we got was with the track balls, and being as large as they were it was pretty difficult to get them enough speed to be really dangerous (which still didn't stop some team from trying in their effort to score quickly and efficiently!).

[notmattlythgoe]

Even if they are going into a bucket, don't you think that some team is going to have the bright idea that shooting them in from half a field away will allow them to score more points (as they won't have to drive right up to the bucket)?

I've been hit with the game pieces (intentionally or accidentally) for every game for the past 5 years. None of them have really posed an injury threat if something went wrong - the closest we got was with the track balls, and being as large as they were it was pretty difficult to get them enough speed to be really dangerous (which still didn't stop some team from trying in their effort to score quickly and efficiently!).

Rules could be made to stop this, my point is I wouldn't count out any game piece.

[Taylor]

FTC currently encourages students to lift bowling balls way up high. There are many ways in which safety can be instituted in an exciting way.
Recall the initial velocity rules from 2006.
<S02> Muzzle Velocity - No ROBOT may throw a ball with an exit velocity of greater than 12 m/s (26.8 mph).
As a reference, a ball traveling at this velocity when leaving the ROBOT at an angle of 30º from horizontal with no spin will travel approximately 35 feet. A robot that violates this rule will be considered unsafe per <S01>.

[zaphodp.jensen]

And Remember, they had numerous palates of plexiglass, which could be used to enclose the entire field, protecting spectators and drivers alike...

[PAR_WIG1350]

FTC currently encourages students to lift bowling balls way up high. There are many ways in which safety can be instituted in an exciting way.
Recall the initial velocity rules from 2006.

No it doesn't, it doesn't specifically discourage it either, but the goal into which the bowling ball is scored is only 8 inches above the playing field and there is a ramp leading up to it. Furthermore, the bowling ball only weighs six pounds, so it would hurt, but anything that could make it do more than that would likely be declared a safety hazard and would have to be disabled in order to pass inspection.


And Remember, they had numerous palates of plexiglass, which could be used to enclose the entire field, protecting spectators and drivers alike...

Just a word of caution, Plexiglass is acrylic, which shatters on impact; The palates had polycarbonate, which doesn't shatter under normal conditions and bends to absorb impacts rather than failing completely. I don't recommend using plexiglass on or near the robots for anything, but polycarbonate is a good material for FRC when it is properly used.

[ratdude747]

Just a word of caution, Plexiglass is acrylic, which shatters on impact; The palates had polycarbonate, which doesn't shatter under normal conditions and bends to absorb impacts rather than failing completely. I don't recommend using plexiglass on or near the robots for anything, but polycarbonate is a good material for FRC when it is properly used.

thats a bit ironic... what i wonder is how they get away with using plexiglass for the guard panels at hockey rinks... pucks can fly at pretty quick speeds, esp in a pro game and it bounces of one of the goal posts (net supports)... must be a puck thing.

speaking of which, what about puck like hockey game? that my require high speed sensors...

[IndySam]

thats a bit ironic... what i wonder is how they get away with using plexiglass for the guard panels at hockey rinks... pucks can fly at pretty quick speeds, esp in a pro game and it bounces of one of the goal posts (net supports)... must be a puck thing.



Because they do use polycarbonate but the sportscasters call it plexiglass because it's easier to say.

[mdiradoorian]

plexiglass is easier to say than polycarbonate. Hockey would be a cool game to play but the only problem is that it would be tough for every team to have a rink to practice on.

[Hallry]

Hockey would be a cool game to play but the only problem is that it would be tough for every team to have a rink to practice on.

Regolith anyone? :yikes:

[EricH]

Regolith anyone? :yikes:
You want to go to the moon, eh?

[ratdude747]

You want to go to the moon, eh?

hmm... FIRST has already been there, done that... what is the next step? Mars! :ahh:

[Hallry]

hmm... FIRST has already been there, done that... what is the next step? Mars! :ahh:

Well, that's where Dave's newest car (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/index.html) is headed =P

[ratdude747]

Well, that's where Dave's newest car (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/index.html) is headed =P

hmm...

[KrazyCarl92]

Because they do use polycarbonate but the sportscasters call it plexiglass because it's easier to say.

They in fact use plexiglass. Having played hockey and seen the stuff shatter, it REALLY shatters everywhere. Video evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB9CMKHGjag

As for how they "get away with it", my guess would be a difference in yield strengths. It may take much more force to shatter the plexiglass rather than bend the polycarbonate. I don't know this for sure, but that's how I could rationalize this application. That being said, polycarbonate is better than plexiglass for robotics because plexiglass will shatter like in above video.

[PAR_WIG1350]

based on the second and third incidents from this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t011ud9BqC4&feature=related) video (apparently from the same game), it seems to be laminated, at least in some venues, so that it doesn't send shards of plastic everywhere when it does shatter.

[quinxorin]

They in fact use plexiglass. Having played hockey and seen the stuff shatter, it REALLY shatters everywhere. Video evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB9CMKHGjag

As for how they "get away with it", my guess would be a difference in yield strengths. It may take much more force to shatter the plexiglass rather than bend the polycarbonate. I don't know this for sure, but that's how I could rationalize this application. That being said, polycarbonate is better than plexiglass for robotics because plexiglass will shatter like in above video.
It's also that breaking the glass looks really cool and earns them higher ratings, so they want to do it.

[ratdude747]

based on the second and third incidents from this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t011ud9BqC4&feature=related) video (apparently from the same game), it seems to be laminated, at least in some venues, so that it doesn't send shards of plastic everywhere when it does shatter.

it was also in the same period...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4f3qkhZa7M&feature=related

must have been on a hot streak.

as for why, lexan costs a lot more than plexiglass... and glass and perhaps even plexiglass is much more scratch resistant... lexan is a softer material and is more scratch prone. given the amount of contact the panels see, it wouldn't take long for dust scratches to ruin the panels...

[zaphodp.jensen]

Just a word of caution, Plexiglass is acrylic, which shatters on impact; The palates had polycarbonate, which doesn't shatter under normal conditions and bends to absorb impacts rather than failing completely. I don't recommend using plexiglass on or near the robots for anything, but polycarbonate is a good material for FRC when it is properly used.

Sorry there, I mistakenly wrote the wrong material. Anyway, I believe everyone knows what I am talking about...;)

[Andrew Lawrence]

Are we sure we go everything out of this? Did we scrutinize it completely for every possible detail? Maybe we aren't getting something.

[ttldomination]

Are we sure we go everything out of this? Did we scrutinize it completely for every possible detail? Maybe we aren't getting something.

We've been doing this since about page 2.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231027/uncyclopedia/images/archive/1/11/20080202231407!Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

- Sunny G.

[pandamonium]

that last post is a little over the top but the point is valid. That is the way these threads normally go though they are twice as long. :)

[Sean Raia]

For the sake of entertainment, im rather happy that this is back on the top of the portal.

O.K so what is left to dissect on this hint that we haven't yet?
*crickets*

[Ninja_Bait]

We've been doing this since about page 2.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231027/uncyclopedia/images/archive/1/11/20080202231407!Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

- Sunny G.

Quoted to once again try and kill this thread dead.

[JaneYoung]

Quoted to once again try and kill this thread dead.

You can't stop the signal...

[Robert Cawthon]

"It Lives" just like Frankenstiens monster. :D

[ratdude747]

We've been doing this since about page 2.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231027/uncyclopedia/images/archive/1/11/20080202231407!Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

- Sunny G.

maybe the forum needs the attached smiley.

[Andrew Schreiber]

You can't stop the signal...

Wanna put some money down on that Jane? I bet you a certain Mr Martus can (and will) kill the signal sometime tomorrow evening for about 30-60 minutes. I just hope the transition goes well and things can be shiny on kickoff.

[JaneYoung]

Wanna put some money down on that Jane?

If CD is down, it won't stop the chatter, er, signal.

:)

No bets. I'd win.

Jane

[Daniel_LaFleur]

For the sake of entertainment, im rather happy that this is back on the top of the portal.

O.K so what is left to dissect on this hint that we haven't yet?
*crickets*

I've been wondering ... (and thats always a bad thing :yikes: )

What if the items on that list aren't the clue, but instead its the fact that it is a list that is the clue. It might signify sorting of some kind.


... Just a thought

[Sean Raia]

I've been wondering ... (and thats always a bad thing :yikes: )

What if the items on that list aren't the clue, but instead its the fact that it is a list that is the clue. It might signify sorting of some kind.


... Just a thought

Or maybe they are both part of the clue?
The list certaintly wont be a lie, so we can count on high speed counters being used on the field. But yes, i would think "sorting" or "stacking" is going to be a theme in this game.

[PAR_WIG1350]

maybe the field, like the list, has rows and columns.They could be different scoring areas or something.

[James Kuszmaul]

Instead of inner tubes or balls or tetrahedrons, it will be a water balloon game, where robots have to take as many water balloons they can from their side and carry them across to the other side and dump them on the opponent's side. different color balloons are in different places and count for different points (similar to this year's game), and balloons may not leave your robots frame except in certain areas near the bins where you are placing/picking up water balloons. :p

Or maybe it is a boring game just like all the others in previous years, no water, no fire, no fun :rolleyes:

[Andrew Lawrence]

Or maybe they are both part of the clue?
The list certaintly wont be a lie, so we can count on high speed counters being used on the field. But yes, i would think "sorting" or "stacking" is going to be a theme in this game.

Well then, I guess your haven't seen the extremely high speed stacking the robots did in 2003! :p

[Ninja_Bait]

Instead of inner tubes or balls or tetrahedrons, it will be a water balloon game, where robots have to take as many water balloons they can from their side and carry them across to the other side and dump them on the opponent's side. different color balloons are in different places and count for different points (similar to this year's game), and balloons may not leave your robots frame except in certain areas near the bins where you are placing/picking up water balloons. :p

Or maybe it is a boring game just like all the others in previous years, no water, no fire, no fun :rolleyes:

I think this year, we will build a robot that will pelt the opposing alliance with the balloons and "clean" their electronics.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I think this year, we will build a robot that will pelt the opposing alliance with the balloons and "clean" their electronics.

Well, that technically is gracious professionalism. Where outside of FIRST will other teams gladly help you wash your robot and clean out your electrical board?

[James Kuszmaul]

I think this year, we will build a robot that will pelt the opposing alliance with the balloons and "clean" their electronics.
yes, people do have such dirty electronics, I mean, why do they think they need that ugly, gray, blocky battery? And the red and black strings coming out of everything? I mean, it's so boring. They really need some pretty yellow and white to lighten things up.

[JaneYoung]

maybe the forum needs the attached smiley.

Your smiley is awesome. Maybe you could send it to Brandon Martus and ask him if he could fit it into the group of choices.

Jane

[Robert Cawthon]

Who knew that the first hint would be the last? I was hoping for more since I enjoy watching everyone dig for the truth. Bill, here's hoping you do better next year! More hints! I also miss Dave's red herrings. Both wound up our brains (and, to a certain extent, our virtual mouths where we say things that we know are way out in left field, maybe not even in the ball park) and kept the CD rumor mill forum humming. ;)

[Team 3705]

HELL YEAH! OMG, we won the safety animation award :D.

Go Team 3705- Arrowbots!

[CNettles11]

...I speculate that it will be a basketball style game...

Called it.