First Official 2012 Game Hint

[Zstack836]

This was just posted on Bill's Blog:

Good Morning Teams,

Rockwell Automation has again agreed to generously donate components we need for the 2012 FRC season. Check it out. You may find it very interesting.

http://robobees.org/pictures/2012/2012gamehint1.png

Taken From -
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/12/frc-game-hint-1.html

Thoughts?

[iblis432]

I can see a lot of that is stuff that is always on the field. Would anyone who knows the field in detail be kind enough to separate the new from the old?

[thefro526]

For those of you stuck behind firewalls:

Good Morning Teams,

Rockwell Automation has again agreed to generously donate components we need for the 2012 FRC season. Check it out. You may find it very interesting.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_KWW1fXBjAM/TtjhyyGwmNI/AAAAAAAAAHI/ls1aV4kiTuQ/s1600/2012+Rockwell+donation.jpg

36 days until Kickoff
See you then!

[Jared Russell]

Very High Speed Counter, you say?

I think I like where this is going.

[Josh Drake]

My thoughts:
-It's getting close to kickoff!
-This list will be analized extensively by the CD comminity.
-There will 1001 ideas on how the items will be used on the playing field.

One observation:
They are not waterproof, so no watergame this year :(

[Ross3098]

Blue lights Amber lights Green Lights and Red Lights...

Red blue green for FMS but the Amber Light???

[thefro526]

Very High Speed Counter, you say?

I think I like where this is going.

252 of them, at that.

Would equate to 10-12 per field, depending on how many spares kept on hand.

Brings back memories of the good 'ol days of jamming goals with balls... ;)

[Hallry]

That PHOTOSWITCH Photoeletric Sensor is interesting...infrared? Hmm...

[linuxboy]

Blue lights Amber lights Green Lights and Red Lights...

Red blue green for FMS but the Amber Light???

If I remember correctly there are amber lights at the bottom of all the team stack lights, they are just never turned on. I say that because of their outside color, I haven't actually checked the inside of the amber section. Although, the differences in quantity seem to say that they are not for the same purpose. Stacklights seem to break pretty easily though, I can't imagine they would have them where the robot could hit it.

[O'Sancheski]

Hmmm. Intriguing.

[Steve Howland]

Blue lights Amber lights Green Lights and Red Lights...

Red blue green for FMS but the Amber Light???

There's also 14 amber lights and only 4 of the each red/blue/green, of that style. But there's another set of exclusively red and blue lights so I think we're remaining at two alliances.

Lights are tricky... they could be an integral part of the game (poor example: king of the hill! race to the lit-up amber section!), or FIRST could have decided to turn on some amber lights during the end-game period to make it more obvious to everyone watching.

[Hallry]

The quantities of each item are also quite interesting...

[Ross3098]

That PHOTOSWITCH Photoeletric Sensor is interesting...infrared? Hmm...

That got my attention too at first glance.

Have they been used in the past? If so what was the use?

500 all together I wonder why so many..

[thefro526]

That PHOTOSWITCH Photoeletric Sensor is interesting...infrared? Hmm...

That got my attention too at first glance.

Have they been used in the past? If so what was the use?

500 all together I wonder why so many..

A photo switch can be used in conjunction with software as a scoring counter. Every time the beam is broken, you'd add a count.

500 Sensors equates to ~26 per field, which isn't all that many.

Edit, just reread the list, and it's only 250 complete counter assemblies (13 per field). One sensor sends an IR beam and the other receives it.

[Mark McLeod]

500 Sensors equates to ~26 per field, which isn't all that many.
And many will be spares.

[ssmitka]

Maybe it's nothing related to the supplies, but the name of the company, Rockwell. Bill's other post was titled Over the River and Through the Woods...and now "rock"well...just my 2 cents. :yikes:

[pandamonium]

Were those the same Green lights used with the camera in the past or different? I am interpreting the sensors to indicate small ball game.

[Zstack836]

Well the first thing that caught my eye was the word "touchscreen", I figured it was just for the score keepers but I wanted to take a look at it anyways.

Pulled up a picture and it does not look like the same touchscreen that they have used in years past. Maybe we will have some sort of touchscreen field-interface? Maybe we control parts of the field this year?! That would be kinda cool..

[skimoose]

252 of them, at that.

Would equate to 10-12 per field, depending on how many spares kept on hand.

Brings back memories of the good 'ol days of jamming goals with balls... ;)

My first thoughts too. Another rapid fire Aim High style game with more goals!

[johnr]

It's not the parts, it's the thought that counts. You will "generously donate" your game pieces into your opponent's goal.

[pandamonium]

My first thoughts too. Another rapid fire Aim High style game with more goals! <- This. I am going to make an educated guess as this is the 20th game... We started with Tennis balls and I think this may be the year of their glorious return... :)

[FIRSTtm134]

That PHOTOSWITCH Photoeletric Sensor is interesting...infrared? Hmm...

the Kinect see's infrared.. Advanced imaging for the robots using the kinect?

[Josh Drake]

<- This. I am going to make an educated guess as this is the 20th game... We started with Tennis balls and I think this may be the year of their glorious return... :)

My thoughts too, somebody on our team brought that up earlier. Maybe she has ESP?

[Steve Howland]

<- This. I am going to make an educated guess as this is the 20th game... We started with Tennis balls and I think this may be the year of their glorious return... :)

That could explain the heavy field. If we are firing something dangerous like tennis balls, perhaps the field will be enclosed with plexiglass to prevent them from injuring referees/spectators/human players.

Though I would worry about team injuries throughout the season with such a challenge.

[thefro526]

I highly doubt we'll ever see regular sized tennis balls used as an FRC game piece again. They're far too small for FRC sized bots, and they'd make field reset take forever.

[linuxboy]

Well the first thing that caught my eye was the word "touchscreen", I figured it was just for the score keepers but I wanted to take a look at it anyways.

Pulled up a picture and it does not look like the same touchscreen that they have used in years past. Maybe we will have some sort of touchscreen field-interface? Maybe we control parts of the field this year?! That would be kinda cool..

The CE 1000 looks to me like what was used on the field this past year for the scorers, I can't remember the model number from the ones on the field but they don't look different to me.

Also, I can't think where there would be a limit switch in the standard field. I wonder what that will be used for? Maybe another minibot race :D?

[Chuck Glick]

I highly doubt we'll ever see regular sized tennis balls used as an FRC game piece again. They're far too small for FRC sized bots, and they'd make field reset take forever.

Not necessarily true. If they were to be done by volume (i.e. a 50gal trash can filled to the brim) they accuracy in terms of numbers isn't as important. As long as roughly the same volume is on the field at all times you are good to go.

As for the "field reset would take forever" arguer... I present to you the solution for fast resetting of a field covered in tennis balls: http://tinyurl.com/7x5l8bs

Hand that to a team of re-setters and you are off to the races.

[pandamonium]

Why does the size of the ball exclude it as an option? I think it is the perfect size. Several people thought Track Balls were too big. The function the balls will be used for and the quantity also play a factor. Also small ball games seem to tend to have challenging field structures such as regolith, stares, ramps, platforms, tunnels... been a while since stairs...

That's my guess Tennis balls and stairs

[ouellet348]

On the Touchscreen interfaces :

I volunteered a number of times last year, several times as an official scorer between regionals and post-seasons. I can't tell the difference and it seems that they are using the same model. We had to disassemble them when I was an FTAA at BattleCry and those seem to be the exact same model, I may be wrong but I'd assume their being using in the same capacity. I wouldn't count on teams using them. My guess would be they are being using to score autonomous or penalties same as last year.

[thefro526]

Not necessarily true. If they were to be done by volume (i.e. a 50gal trash can filled to the brim) they accuracy in terms of numbers isn't as important. As long as roughly the same volume is on the field at all times you are good to go.

As for the "field reset would take forever" arguer... I present to you the solution for fast resetting of a field covered in tennis balls: http://tinyurl.com/7x5l8bs

Hand that to a team of re-setters and you are off to the races.

I'm still not convinced Chuck.

Imagine an FRC field with 100 tennis balls on it and teams attempting to drive around competently... (Running over tennis balls, getting them stuck in drives, high centering on a ball)

Would be worse than Lunacy, IMO.

[Justin Montois]

The very high speed counter is interesting.

Here are the specs for it:
http://samplecode.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/in/1738-in011_-en-e.pdf

Maybe someone with a more electronics background can learn more by looking at that.

Looks like an "Aim High" style game, but this is page 3 of the Game Hint thread... when we get to page 9 is when we start figuring things out for reals.:p

[Jared Russell]

The IR photoswitches listed here are typically used as matched pairs...

http://www.seltec.co.uk/images/shop/more/340x188_13045871947000throughbeam.JPG

The outputs of the (250) photoswitches are likely inputs to the (~250) high speed counters.

Sure looks like some sort of real-time goal counter to me...

[Zstack836]

On the Touchscreen interfaces :

I volunteered a number of times last year, several times as an official scorer between regionals and post-seasons. I can't tell the difference and it seems that they are using the same model. We had to disassemble them when I was an FTAA at BattleCry and those seem to be the exact same model, I may be wrong but I'd assume their being using in the same capacity. I wouldn't count on teams using them. My guess would be they are being using to score autonomous or penalties same as last year.

Darn! I guess I did not pay close enough attention to the previous year's touchscreens.

[Nate Smith]

I see a lot of people dividing up the quantities across the fields, and I thought that at first, except for the number of items that would have to be shared between the fields...I think we're looking at one field of supplies here...

[Chexposito]

"At the moment we have an estimated 8,000lbs of polycarbonate sheets, four 1,000lb pallets of game specific steel elements, a pallet of aluminum, three 1,500lb pallets of a game specific item plus a fourth 1,000lb pallet of a different game specific item, two full pallets of gaffers tape, an entire pallet of carpet tape and multiple pallets of game pieces. None of which takes into account the existing field components we will be bolting, zip tying and otherwise attaching these items onto or the elements that have not been delivered yet." -from BB
just some food for thought...

[Astechz_Nick]

There has been some recent discussion of this being a sport game (more specifically a football game) and this makes sense if they had the Photoelectric sensors to sense when the game piece crossed through the goalposts. After looking at the Aim High game animation i could see them doing something (with a football like game piece) similiar but with minibots as I think they are going to stay (could this be why we have the amber lights?)

[pianogrrl71]

I see a lot of people dividing up the quantities across the fields, and I thought that at first, except for the number of items that would have to be shared between the fields...I think we're looking at one field of supplies here...

I think so too... There are parts with quantities of 2 or 3 on this list. Does that mean there are going to be ~250 of the IR sensors per field? :yikes:

[Chexposito]

from that i just noticed there are two game specific field items that are similar but different. but there's approx. 4 times as many of the main item as the similar item...

[Chexposito]

I think so too... There are parts with quantities of 2 or 3 on this list. Does that mean there are going to be ~250 of the IR sensors per field? :yikes:

this is the new materials in addition to the ones owned and stocked, so some are new for game reasons and some are for replacements...

[pianogrrl71]

this is the new materials in addition to the ones owned and stocked, so some are new for game reasons and some are for replacements...

So that still means that this is a list of parts for one field, correct?

[Chexposito]

So that still means that this is a list of parts for one field, correct?

some are for individual fields and some are for all fields and backups for if the ones on the field are broken

[Astechz_Nick]

So that still means that this is a list of parts for one field, correct?

most likely

[Thad House]

So that still means that this is a list of parts for one field, correct?

Thinking about it, This would mean this is all the parts. So now i think this is the complete order

[Chexposito]

Thinking about it, This would mean this is all the parts. So now i think this is the complete order

it is "Rockwell Automation has again agreed to generously donate components we need for the 2012 FRC season." -From BB

[linuxboy]

I see a lot of people dividing up the quantities across the fields, and I thought that at first, except for the number of items that would have to be shared between the fields...I think we're looking at one field of supplies here...

I think there are three possibilities as to what its a list of:
The list of new parts that RA is giving to FIRST this year
The BOM for all the fields put together
The BOM for one field.

I personally think that it is the list of items per field because the 6 DC power supplies and the 6 Ethernet/IP armor blocks, are things that I think I have seen inside of the scoring IOs / SCCs (particularly the Ethernet/IP armor blocks). Last year there were three of those Ethernet/IP armor blocks per alliance (one for team lights & stop buttons on the SCC, and one per scoring IO, of which there were two per side).

[Thad House]

This also includes parts that come in the KOP as well.

[Chexposito]

please note the 2500 signal lights we get every year, this is the total order not for just one field

[thefro526]

please note the 2500 signal lights we get every year, this is the total order not for just one field

Good Catch.

Looks like that's the only KOP Item on the list though, unless some of the items are rookie KOP only. (Currently have ~2300 teams registered, no other item comes close to that.)

[Clourchn07]

Just an RPI 316 Alumni's opinion, but this is a crazy list...

As stated before: lights of colors have been used for tracking with camera which has gone away recently, could be back for auto.

The counter is interesting as as the photoswitch.

This list combined with the rumors of using kinect software/items makes me think this will be some kind of HP position where you have to run to an area and act as a pressure switch as in years past.

Just a thought... Good Luck FIRST, I miss you all so much!

[Jon Stratis]

I think there are three possibilities as to what its a list of:
The list of new parts that RA is giving to FIRST this year
The BOM for all the fields put together
The BOM for one field.

I personally think that it is the list of items per field because the 6 DC power supplies and the 6 Ethernet/IP armor blocks, are things that I think I have seen inside of the scoring IOs / SCCs (particularly the Ethernet/IP armor blocks). Last year there were three of those Ethernet/IP armor blocks per alliance (one for team lights & stop buttons on the SCC, and one per scoring IO, of which there were two per side).

My impression is that this is the total list of parts that Rockwell is donating to FIRST this year. It includes KoP items, as others have pointed out. It includes game-specific field elements, like the sensors others have discussed. And it includes items for the new fields FIRST is building (per Bill's Blog (http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/09/good-news.html), there are two new fields this year, bringing the total to 19) - those new fields will require all new electronics, like the DC power supplies and Ethernet Blocks you've pointed out.

[KevinGoneNuts]

Thoughts collected so far:
-Unsure if this list is in total or per field.
-IR sensors used to see if something breaks the plain (kind of like a garage door if I'm not mistaken?)
-Counters count how many times a break in the plain occurs.
-Aim High revamp?

Thoughts to think about:
-Does this have any correlation to the choice of having a pre-recorded kick off?
-In autonomous, I see the robots having to break the plain of the IR senors, with the direction of the human player/driver using the connect.

Did I miss anything?

[linuxboy]

My impression is that this is the total list of parts that Rockwell is donating to FIRST this year. It includes KoP items, as others have pointed out. It includes game-specific field elements, like the sensors others have discussed. And it includes items for the new fields FIRST is building (per Bill's Blog (http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/09/good-news.html), there are two new fields this year, bringing the total to 19) - those new fields will require all new electronics, like the DC power supplies and Ethernet Blocks you've pointed out.

After seeing the KOP stuff, I think your right. I'm guessing that there will not be scoring IOs. (6 ethernet blocks, 1 per SCC, 3 SCCs per field (1 blue, 1 red, 1 spare), 2 fields). All that really amounts two is there are not two scoring elements to be triggered per alliance.

Oliver

[hbhyatt]

Rockwell Automation specializes in automation control and we know we are receiving a Kinect in the KOP and there are infrared sensors and very high speed counters on the hint list. More focus on robot control between driver/robot or robot/game piece, maybe?

[Elgin Clock]

A quick Google search for the part number with the highest quantity (855PB-B12ME522) revealed that in the past it was used as well:

"1/team from Michael Hunt, Kendall Electric, 269‐963‐5585
rest from http://shop.rockwellautomation.com "

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=855pb-b12me522&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usfirst.org%2FuploadedFiles%2 FWhere%2520to%2520get%2520more%2520Rev%2520A.pdf&ei=XSXZToDrMePz0gHorPz_DQ&usg=AFQjCNHxgShUjhVv0hM7AzIqBeWTztTLag&cad=rja

How many teams do we have competing this year that need one?

[Chris_Elston]

Little background for those that don't know me. I am a Controls Engineer who uses Rockwell products on a daily bases. I also own a website mrplc.com. I thought I would link up all the parts to PDF incase the students are curious so everyone could see along with my commentary about each one.

I tried to just weed through what I have noticed on the field and what I think is new. I also typed this up at lunch and was in a hurry and did not really check my grammar or spelling so sorry about that...

The bottom line of below is there are alot of new count sensors on the field this year. The rest of the BOM (bills of materials) are the standard parts we have seen before.

BEGIN BIG OLD LIST....

1492-CJ6-2
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/a117-ca913_-en-p.pdf
Nothing special with these parts, they are terminal blocks. They are found in the panel that houses the stratix network switch and power supplies. Typically the lights above the driver station, e-stop input and all things related to the red and blue alliance walls are terminated in these boxes. This would include anything with the series 1492, as this series AB numbers are terminal block and connectivity.

1492-CJ6-3
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/a117-ca913_-en-p.pdf

1492-CJ6-4
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/a117-ca913_-en-p.pdf

1492-EAJ35
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/a117-ca913_-en-p.pdf

1492-EB3
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/a117-ca913_-en-p.pdf

1492-0P3
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/pp/1492sp-pp001_-en-p.pdf
Circut breakers in the red and blue alliance junction boxes. It's good to have power protection. Nothing abnormal here.

1492-W4
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/a117-ca913_-en-p.pdf
More terminal blocks.

1492-W4-G
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/a117-ca913_-en-p.pdf

1492-WFB4
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/a117-ca913_-en-p.pdf

1585A-DD4JD
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/1585-ca500_-en-p.pdf
These are industrial CAT5 cables. The field uses a Compact Logix PLC I believe last time I looked in the big black box one year at CAGE MATCH, and all the communication between the PLC, the Stratix Network switch, and the I/O blocks are done with EtherNET I/P. EtherNET I/P is a fieldbus protocol championed by them and AB released this to "ODVA". The point of the matter is that anything industrial generally has a better grade CAT5 cable, most of the time CAT6E rated cable that is shield. A better quality cable that you are going to find at your radio shack store, and also have the option of using a standard "M12" mm screw connector which gives the CAT5 cable a sort of "IP" ingress protection. Anything below that starts with 1585 have to do with standard field cables that connect all the communication between all the devices, PLC, HMI (touch screen), Armor I/O blocks etc.

1585D-M4TBDM-0M3
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/1585-ca500_-en-p.pdf

1585D-M4TBJM-1
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/1585-ca500_-en-p.pdf

1585J-M4TBJM-0M6
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/1585-ca500_-en-p.pdf

1585J-M4TBJM-5
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/1585-ca500_-en-p.pdf

1606-XLP100E
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ap/1606-ap009_-en-e.pdf
Power supply unit found inside th red and blue alliance junction box, seen these before. There are actually two of them in the box, one that is a standard 24 VOLT and the other one is 12 VDC. This one was added to supply the PC Class Mates when you bring your driver station to the wall is what I noticed one year. All other devices, such as the driver alliance lights etc, use 24 VDC as the standard voltage. This is an industry standard.

1606-XLP50B
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ap/1606-ap005_-en-e.pdf
This is the 12 VDC power supply I mentioned above.

1732E-16CFGM12
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/in/1732e-in004_-en-e.pdf
These are the I/O blocks at the end wall as well red and blue alliance. Where all the I/O connection happen, not really anything special once again, we have seen these blocks before.

1738-AENT
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/in/1738-in017_-en-e.pdf
Now here is where is gets interesting....this is an EtherNET I/P node slave module. It requires an IP address and then is configurable to "stackable" I/O modules. You can build your remote I/O station with these AENTs. They are very flexible. QTY (63) slave units is alot...There is alot of I/O here.

1738-VHSC24M23
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/in/1738-in011_-en-e.pdf
And once again, these are the stackable modules that plug into the AENT module and appear as I/O. This is a special module to register INPUT data. It's considered a REMOTE I/O block that terminates local sensors. Then transmits it's data from a sensor, to the AENT module, which then sends the data up to the PLC via Ethernet I/P. QTY (252) high speed count modules is an awful lot of modules...Add that to the Emitter and Transceiver BEAM photoeyes below, and you got yourself somewhat a high speed counter.


199-DR1
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/a117-ca913_-en-p.pdf
Standard DIN RAIL, to mount all the components in an electrical enclosure, your power supply, terminal blocks, and circuit break already mentioned would mount on this rail.

2711P-T10C4A6
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/in/2711p-in029_-en-p.pdf
These are the standard touch panels that you see on the corner of the field. I have seen QTy (4) per field. This is what the scoring refs use.

42SML-7100
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/c116-ca501_-en-p.pdf
These are those photoeyes the beam sending unit that will probably be wired to the high speed input modules above. AKA, a game piece counter of some sort, high speed for some reason.

42SMR-7100
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/c116-ca501_-en-p.pdf
These are the receiving unit for the part number above. As others have already said, when the light beam is broken, it typically resisters an input condition which is probably counted in the high speed module and up to the PLC to keep track of.

60-2152
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/c116-ca501_-en-p.pdf
Brackets for the above sensors.

800F-1MM2
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/800f-sg001_-en-p.pdf
We have seen these, this is the plastic box that holds the e-stop button at the driver station. The button you never wanna hit.

802B-CSDDBSLD4
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/c116-ca505_-en-p.pdf
This is a new sensor I have not seen on the field. Once again probably another counting sensor for the game piece. QTY (168) of these is alot of limit switch sensors for the field.

855E-LL24B
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf
These are the LED modules at the scoring table, part of the stack light that tells the scoring people when all the robots have communications.

855E-LL24R
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf

855PB-012ME522
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf
This is the amber light in the kit of parts. It's required to be located on the robot and connected to the RL output on the digital side car. With QTY (2500) that means that BOM item was placed in the KOP. That's alot of lights over the past 3 years I remember using them! Can you imagine being a part supplier for FIRST? You would need to supply QTY (2500) of the parts...wow..

855T-B00XN7
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf

855T-B24TA1
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf
Part of the scoring stack light, nothing special the TONE you hear when all robots are ready, then the stack light goes GREEN.

855T-B24TL3
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf

855T-B24TL4
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf

855T-B24TL5
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf

855T-B247L6
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf

855T-BCBC
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf

855T-BPM10
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/sg/855-sg001_-en-p.pdf

879D-F4AET5M-1
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/879d-ca500_-en-p.pdf
This is a standard cordset for industrial sensors. It's a "Y" cable. Typically you use these when you have an emitter and transceiver sensor setup. One half of the Y cable has power only to the transceiver sensor. Typically the BLUE wire is 24 VDC common, the BROWN wire is 24 VDC hot. The other side of the "Y" cable has the input wire. It would use the BLUE and BROWN for power, then the BLACK wire is the signal wire for the emitter half of the sensor.

888D-M4AC6-0M3
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/m117-ca001_-en-p.pdf
The rest of this is cordsets for said sensors.

888D-M4AE1-0M3
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/m117-ca001_-en-p.pdf

889D-E4AE-2
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/m117-ca001_-en-p.pdf

889D-F4AE-5
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/m117-ca001_-en-p.pdf

889D-F4AEDE-10
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/m117-ca001_-en-p.pdf

889D-R4ACDE-10
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/m117-ca001_-en-p.pdf

889D-R4ACDE-5
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/m117-ca001_-en-p.pdf

889M-V12AH-5
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/m117-ca001_-en-p.pdf

889N-R4AF-6F
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/m117-ca001_-en-p.pdf

9324-RLD000ENE
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/ftalk-ca001_-en-p.pdf
Non-development license of RS Logix 5000 (typically used for maintenance people). Only allows upload and download of PLC ladder.

9324-RLD300ENE
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/ftalk-ca001_-en-p.pdf
Standard license, but they purchase two licenses, so that must mean FIRST has QTY (2) field development engineers as that is two licenses. It would be neat to live near headquauters, I wouldn't mind seeing if I could get involved in the development of the field scoring system. I use this software EVERYDAY at work. It's called ladder logic.

[IndySam]

Great job Chris

/end thread

[pfreivald]

Rockwell Automation specializes in automation control and we know we are receiving a Kinect in the KOP and there are infrared sensors and very high speed counters on the hint list. More focus on robot control between driver/robot or robot/game piece, maybe?

Clearly, the endgame will be an autonomous minibot using the Kinect to control the robot...

[IndySam]

I love the tennis ball idea and I also agree that they are too small for a FRC robot.

PS Wilson makes 9" tennis balls, Aim High part 2.

[JohnBoucher]

Great job Chris

/end thread

DITTO

[Jon Stratis]

a 9" tennis ball... seems not too many places carry those (I only found 3 places in the twin cities) as they are designed mostly for use as conversation and autograph pieces. That definitely goes with the "hard to obtain" game piece rule!

[pfreivald]

I love the tennis ball idea and I also agree that they are too small for a FRC robot.

I don't see why this would stop FIRST from using them... Any problems like that are just part of the challenge, yeah?

[gagnem09]

If you take a look at Bill's post on November 16th he said that there were over 8000lbs of polycarbonate sheets, and 5500lbs of game specific elements. I'm thinking small and heavy game pieces. My first guess was Golf Balls. Any thoughts?

[thefro526]

I don't see why this would stop FIRST from using them... Any problems like that are just part of the challenge, yeah?

Very simple reason for not using standard tennis balls.

Watch how many teams in FTC struggle to drive on a field littered with racquetballs and you'll understand why a field littered with tennis balls could lead to the most boring matches ever.

(Also, what is the relation between this year and tennis balls? Last year was FIRST's 20th Season. Wouldn't Tennis balls have made more sense then?)

[jason701802]

It looks like this is a complete list of what RA is donating. Many of the small quantity items are either packages of 10, 50, or 100 or what is needed to make the 2 new fields.
For anyone interested, I've compiled and attached a spreadsheet of all the items with links to their item pages and the number of items in the package.

EDIT: I started this before Chris made his excellent post, but I'm leaving it because it has some information not in his post

[pandamonium]

Very simple reason for not using standard tennis balls.

Watch how many teams in FTC struggle to drive on a field littered with racquetballs and you'll understand why a field littered with tennis balls could lead to the most boring matches ever.

(Also, what is the relation between this year and tennis balls? Last year was FIRST's 20th Season. Wouldn't Tennis balls have made more sense then?)

This is the 20th FRC game

[thefro526]

This is the 20th FRC game

No It's Not.

1992: Maize Craze (1)
1993: Rug Rage (2)
1994: Tower Power (3)
1995: Ramp n Roll (4)
1996: Hexagon Havoc (5)
1997: Toroid Terror (6)
1998: Ladder Logic (7)
1999: Double Trouble (8)
2000:Co-Operatition FIRST (9)
2001: Diabolical Dynamics (10)
2002: Zone Zeal (11)
2003: Stack Attack (12)
2004: Raising The Bar (13)
2005: Triple Play (14)
2006: Aim High (15)
2007: Rack n Roll (16)
2008: Overdrive (17)
2009: Lunacy (18)
2010: Breakaway (19)
2011: Logomotion (20)

This is the 21st game.

[Andrew Schreiber]

No It's Not.

1992: Maize Craze (1)
1993: Rug Rage (2)
1994: Tower Power (3)
1995: Ramp n Roll (4)
1996: Hexagon Havoc (5)
1997: Toroid Terror (6)
1998: Ladder Logic (7)
1999: Double Trouble (8)
2000:Co-Operatition FIRST (9)
2001: Diabolical Dynamics (10)
2002: Zone Zeal (11)
2003: Stack Attack (12)
2004: Raising The Bar (13)
2005: Triple Play (14)
2006: Aim High (15)
2007: Rack n Roll (16)
2008: Overdrive (17)
2010: Breakaway (19)
2011: Logomotion (20)

This is the 21st game.

I don't count 2009. I like to pretend it didn't happen. ;)

[Joe G.]

Double check your math...Logomotion was the 20th.

But it is the 20th anniversary of rug rage, the only "Water game" in FRC history . :p

[Brandon Zalinsky]

I don't see why this would stop FIRST from using them... Any problems like that are just part of the challenge, yeah?

Yes, but it also takes away from the spectator aspect, as seeing tennis balls from the stands would be just as much of a challenge.

[Ninja_Bait]

I was just thinking about how I would use this stuff if I was a GDC. Then I read this thread and my brains melted completely. I'm a game hint zombie now: "Urrrgh... Must read Bill's Bloooooogggghhh...."

Anyway, what if the infrared photosensors are just for checking boundary lines? I don't know what their range is, but if it's reasonably long they could certainly be used to check when robots go into alliance lanes or make laps around a track or are above a certain level, things we usually leave to refs, but could automate if the game demands more precision than is achieved by the human eye.

Most of this sounds like the usual stuff, though, so I'm guessing this is like the field entrance gate clue in 2010 - in addition to pinpointing the unusual items, we should consider the possibility of an unusual use for ordinary items.

Also, Rockwell like Norman Rockwell, the famed painter of the modern Santa Claus? Plus Elfbot? Plus "...to Grandma's house we go"? Plus "mull" like mulled cider? Sounds like a theme to me. WE'RE GIVING UP ON ROBOTS AND HAVING A MASSIVE HOLIDAY PARTY! Woot.

[lemiant]

On the other hand it is the 20th anniversary of Maize craize :yikes:

[CNettles11]

My team is currently in the process of over-analyzing the game hint. We've sent 2 rookies and 2 veteran team members (One being myself,) on a mission to find out what each donated part is.

[thefro526]

On the other hand it is the 20th anniversary of Maize craize :yikes:

Not according to FIRST?

FIRST® (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology) announced today that it has selected St. Louis to host the worldwide robotics Championship beginning in 2011 and continuing through 2013, including the 20th Anniversary year of the organization’s inaugural competition.

Championship Documentation Referring to 2011 as the 20th Anniversary of FRC's inaugural competition. Didn't anyone see all of the 20th Anniversary stuff last year?

Anyway, at least now I know where everyone was getting tennis balls from.

[pfreivald]

Yes, but it also takes away from the spectator aspect, as seeing tennis balls from the stands would be just as much of a challenge.

This is, at least, a solid counter-argument.

As far as driving issues, I figure FIRST would say, "make your robot so it's not a problem and it won't be a problem".

[the man]

I would never count out anything as a game piece... Especially tennis balls.

[Bjenks548]

Hardest rules for refs last year? Minibot deployment times. Could the photorecepters help with the equivaliant of launching something early and sending a signal to deactivate the new tower?

[Ninja_Bait]

I would never count out anything as a game piece... Especially tennis balls.

Well, based on some of the items in that list, it sounds like FIRST is planning to count out quite a few of the game pieces, and at high speed, too!

:cool: yeahhhhh!

[Bob Steele]

My short perusal would indicate the same thing... counting mechanisms...
high count -counting mechanisms which of course could be used for low counts too...

If high counts are needed it could either be large numbers of objects on the field OR the anticipation of large numbers of objects all at ONE time...say perhaps in the end game.

High speed would also probably mean round... spherical...because other types of objects don't move through a scoring position quickly...

tennis balls - probably not... real easy to get up to speeds above 100 mph.
this provides a danger for refs, staff and spectators.. unless the speeds are controlled...

Same issue (in SPADES) for golf balls...

If I were guessing... wiffle balls...high initial speeds possible but they quickly slow down... limited flight...
these have been used in other competitions (FTC-VEX)
Cheap, easily obtainable...pretty visible if you get the yellow ones..

size...probably the softball sized ones...

Or perhaps a return to poof balls (hmmm in honor of the 254's CMP alliance win last year?... just kidding)

Those are excellent projectiles of a relatively smaller size... fairly easy to obtain... terminal velocity characteristics are pretty good....we have precedent for their use...

just my ideas... what say you?

[Tetraman]

Alright. I'll get to work with what I did last year and design a game based on this hint. Give me a day or two though...this looks like a challenge.

[404'd]

I don't know if anyone has thought of this yet, but:
The Photo sensors they are using(RA 42SMR--7100) have an effective FOV of 8 degrees,
So if they are using these for sensing a goal being scored, it could be a small goal, the sensors could be spaced farther away inside the goal, or they would have multiple sensors per goal. Does this sound right?

Spec sheet: http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ca/c116-ca501_-en-p.pdf
page 110

[pfreivald]

I would never count out anything as a game piece... Especially tennis balls.

Exactly. If the Orbit Ball passes muster, anything could pass muster.

*looks forward to the jello cube game*

[BrendanB]

I also highly doubt they will use tennis balls as they are so small, the 1992 robots were the size of modern day FTC robots. That would be a pretty low (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/19794) kitbot to eliminate the driving issues!

[Travis Hoffman]

Can you imagine being a part supplier for FIRST?

Yes. :ahh: :ahh: :ahh: about sums it up.

You would need to supply QTY (2500) of the parts...wow..

Or more, if there are multiple parts/pieces per kit.

I wouldn't mind seeing if I could get involved in the development of the field scoring system.

Me too. :) I say scrap all this cRIO stuff - PLC-controlled robots for everybody! ::safety::

Thanks for all the P/N information.

[Travis Hoffman]

Maybe it's nothing related to the supplies, but the name of the company, Rockwell. Bill's other post was titled Over the River and Through the Woods...and now "rock"well...just my 2 cents. :yikes:

Rockwell *sang* "Somebody's Watching Me". In 2012 FIRST, field watches you.

[Tristan Lall]

Ladder logic n. archaic 1. How to program old stuff, slowly. 2. The 1998 FRC game.

So you can imagine my sense of revulsion when I saw the RSLogix stuff. Fortunately, I think FIRST is going to keep it far from the robots. Its presence implies to me that the game elements need to be processed/scored in a way that occurs too rapidly for humans—hence the sensors and PLC stuff—yet it's important enough to the game that teams will need it after kickoff to test with.

[Jim Wilks]

yet it's important enough to the game that teams will need it after kickoff to test with.

As I see it, the only things the teams will have is the signal light, just like previous years. All of the rest will be buried in the field.

[the man]

I don't remember exactly but didn't one of bills blog's mention something along the lines of difficult driving conditions this year?

[shirraj]

I think that maybe FIRST wanted us to think more then what the items going to be used as..
Maybe even the list it self is an hint or the amount of items in it.. I think we should think bigger..
My guess is the Kinect will be used to notice objects by those lights maybe we should be something very quickly or throw something very quickly and there will be this Very High Speed counter.. I'm just waiting to the #2 clue and try to finally understand more about the game..

[Andrew Lawrence]

Whatever the photosensors are for, I don't want them to be for counting penalties, especially if they are like the ones this year! :ahh:

[Tom Line]

Interesting. 2 of Allen Bradley stack units can produce noise / music / sounds. I wonder why.

[quinxorin]

Because the parts list includes both photosensors and those touchpads that the scorers use (Panelview plus CE1000 touch), I predict that this game will include both automatic and manual scoring. The Very High Speed Counters will be used for counting the automatic scoring.

The Panelmount selectable LEDs are most likely a kit item, seeing as there are 2500 of them.

[Duke461]

Guys, guys, guys. Calm down. It's not a water game. It's a mineral water game.

[gyroscopeRaptor]

Guys, guys, guys. Calm down. It's not a water game. It's a mineral water game.

The GDC finally took notice of teams' Mountain Dew capacities. They worked out a special deal with Pepsi...

This year's game is a High Fructose Corn Syrup game.

[Ninja_Bait]

The GDC finally took notice of teams' Mountain Dew capacities. They worked out a special deal with Pepsi...

This year's game is a High Fructose Corn Syrup game.

No, no, no. Don't disregard past clues. Remember "mulling"? Apple Cider!

[kendra21093]

I see it being related to two things:
1. Pinball
2. Pushing buttons to do something/get something done.

But I dont know, thats how I see it.

[Tetraman]

I see it being related to two things:
1. Pinball
2. Pushing buttons to do something/get something done.

But I dont know, thats how I see it.

1. Pinball

*slow-clap*

I think we found a winner.

[Andrew Lawrence]

1. Pinball


Will the champs be crowed the "Pinball Wizards?" :p

[Ninja_Bait]

1. Pinball

Instead of The Final Countdown we will listen to the Who's Tommy.

[Jon Stratis]

If I were guessing... wiffle balls...high initial speeds possible but they quickly slow down... limited flight...
these have been used in other competitions (FTC-VEX)
Cheap, easily obtainable...pretty visible if you get the yellow ones..

size...probably the softball sized ones...

Or perhaps a return to poof balls (hmmm in honor of the 254's CMP alliance win last year?... just kidding)

Those are excellent projectiles of a relatively smaller size... fairly easy to obtain... terminal velocity characteristics are pretty good....we have precedent for their use...

just my ideas... what say you?

I would argue against wiffle balls - they have holes in them, which would make the photosensors (presumably used for tracking scoring in some way) unreliable - if it manages to "see" straight through the middle of a ball due to the holes, it could count that ball twice (the beam would break when the ball first enters, resume in the middle, then break again on the second half). The biggest thing I get from this is that the game pieces are likely solid (referring to the exterior - they could be hollow like a tennis ball, or solid all the way through like a billiard ball), spherical, and numerous. In other words, no Orbit Balls!

[ehochstein]

1. Pinball


Now I am imagining a field shaped like a triangle... Slopes going down each side, the robot's goal is to score into a goal like a pinball game. Except the field is made out of regolith so you can't actually climb the triangle without traction. At the same time the top of the triangle is exactly like Breakaway's bumps. The game specific piece being a... bowling ball!!

I can already see kick-off... Telling us that we need to make our robots robust because there will be bowling balls flying around.

On top of all of this they will still make it a water game by creating a fountain of water all along the pinnacle of the triangle. The water is just a light stream of course, but we have to protect our robots from water damage!

I predict the 2012 game will be the best game ever!

[alectronic]

Interesting. 2 of Allen Bradley stack units can produce noise / music / sounds. I wonder why.

The field system uses sounds to alert FTA's and scorekeepers of various warnings. Those probably go with the new fields being built.

[Tristan Lall]

yet it's important enough to the game that teams will need it after kickoff to test with.As I see it, the only things the teams will have is the signal light, just like previous years. All of the rest will be buried in the field.That was awkward phrasing on my part. I agree that most of the 2 500 amber lights are for the teams, and the rest belongs to FIRST.

What I meant to imply was that if the game pieces are small and need to be counted quickly (as suggested by the previous posters who noted the high-speed counters and photosensors with a narrow field of view), teams that want to practice effectively (which includes practice dealing with the quirks of the field) may want to replicate the scoring apparatus, electronics and all. (For example, during a simulated game, keeping track of the state of 200 small balls might be more difficult than the state of a couple dozen large ones, as we had in 2006.)

Of course, this is merely speculation. I do recognize that the narrow field of view of a photosensor can also imply game pieces of indeterminate size, close to the sensor.

[Wayne TenBrink]

If the IR sensors have a narrow (8 degree?) field of view, then they are not likely to be used to count game pieces going into a large target opening (i.e. 2006 goal or the top of a basket). There are better sensors for that.

Besides counting game pieces, the high speed recorders could be used to measure the speed of an object passing between two sets of sensors. These items could also be configured into a linear or rotary encoder to measure speed and displacement of some moving part of a field element.

With the Kinect supposedly being used as part of the drivers station during autonomous, I expect to see moveable field elements. They would be repositioned after the bots are set on the field, and HP's would use the Kinect to steer the robot to them.

[3098callahan]

Maybe it's nothing related to the supplies, but the name of the company, Rockwell. Bill's other post was titled Over the River and Through the Woods...and now "rock"well...just my 2 cents. :yikes:



Rock wall?
:ahh: :confused: yay woah yay:)

[dodar]

Now I am imagining a field shaped like a triangle... Slopes going down each side, the robot's goal is to score into a goal like a pinball game. Except the field is made out of regolith so you can't actually climb the triangle without traction. At the same time the top of the triangle is exactly like Breakaway's bumps. The game specific piece being a... bowling ball!!

I can already see kick-off... Telling us that we need to make our robots robust because there will be bowling balls flying around.

On top of all of this they will still make it a water game by creating a fountain of water all along the pinnacle of the triangle. The water is just a light stream of course, but we have to protect our robots from water damage!

I predict the 2012 game will be the best game ever!

Then the new Einstein field MC would be Bob Barker because that sounds exactly like Plinko!

[zaphodp.jensen]

EDITED TO MATCH EXTRA INFORMATION:

The math that I did:
2500 Panel Lights = 2500 Teams --> Thus, this is one order, Possibly for everything they are getting from Rockwell.

14 Amber Stack Lights (Or 14 E-stop Buttons) / 3 per Alliance * 2 Alliances Per field - 2 Spares = 2 Extra Fields Being made this year --> That knocks out all of the remaining stack lights

~250 High Speed Counters & 500 Photosensors = 2 Photosensors to One Counter = Two Seperate and equal scoring Goals for Each Alliance (Like the two Logomotion racks)

500 Photosensors/ 19 Fields = 25 Sensors per field = 12 per Alliance + 1 Spare

250 Counters / 19 Fields = 12 Counters Per Field = 6 counters per alliance

6 counters per alliance = 6 Scoring Levels?

168 Roller Limit Switches= Some lever Element or Robot Interaction Element on Field? These style of switches are not like the standard microswitch that were used on the Tower for Logomotion. These are heavier duty than those, and the roller indicates that something is designed to roll or slide past the switch. With a 99% probability, I can say that these switches aren't intended for user interface, or something like the minibot tower...
168 Roller Limit Switches / 19 Fields / 2 Alliances = 4 Switches Per Alliance


As for Tennis Balls as game pieces, to make a field reset faster what if the field was a gently sloped "^", where the dropped tennis balls roll down to the ends of the field, and were collected in a large hopper? This would eliminate the driving hazards and speed up the field reset... This would also explain the "Heavy" Field, because surface would need to support the robots... And why else would they need the high speed counters? A normal counter would easily have the frequency to count, say, soccer balls rolling through a photogate...

And if the balls rolled back to a hopper, that would mean that the switches could be used to trigger a "Dumping" mechanism that would dump that hopper into a robot, maybe scoring extra points?

This would also be an interesting twist of strategy, making floor pickup less effective due to the game pieces "running away" and a robot that can quickly and effectively travel across the field to collect from the dumpers more effective than floor pickup.

[thefro526]

Pierce, just so you know, there will be 19 fields this year, not 15. This will skew your math a little bit, but many of your points seem valid.

We’re building two additional competition fields this year bringing the total number of fields on the road to 19 (if you include the one packaged and staged for emergency deployment if something should happen to one of the other fields as it travels between events).

[jdunston94]

all of you have been focusing on the really technical side. at first glance ANCHOR stuck out in my head. i'm sure that some people have thought that this year is the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the titanic.... now how perfect would that be?

[zaphodp.jensen]

Pierce, just so you know, there will be 19 fields this year, not 15. This will skew your math a little bit, but many of your points seem valid.
Thanks! I will re-evaluate!

[Engineerette]

I would argue against wiffle balls - they have holes in them, which would make the photosensors (presumably used for tracking scoring in some way) unreliable - if it manages to "see" straight through the middle of a ball due to the holes, it could count that ball twice (the beam would break when the ball first enters, resume in the middle, then break again on the second half). The biggest thing I get from this is that the game pieces are likely solid (referring to the exterior - they could be hollow like a tennis ball, or solid all the way through like a billiard ball), spherical, and numerous. In other words, no Orbit Balls!

Alternatively, they could be similar to ball pit balls (http://www.amazon.com/100-Fun-Ballz-Ball-Balls/dp/B000Z408YY/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1322937912&sr=1-2). They're hollow plastic, come in bright colors, and definitely have similar flight properties to wiffle balls since they're so light. Couldn't cause too much damage either.

[Ninja_Bait]

all of you have been focusing on the really technical side. at first glance ANCHOR stuck out in my head. i'm sure that some people have thought that this year is the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the titanic.... now how perfect would that be?

The water game strikes again! First off, there are a few ideas floating around that work with this Titanic theme. Regolith is an iceberg-like surface. Bill's throwing around loaded sentences about stormy weather. A sloped field would be like the tilted and sinking Titanic. But the question remains, why make a game about a failure in design that killed hundreds of people?

I think we should focus more on the technical aspects anyway. Let's imagine for a minute that there is a hidden message in the list. They wouldn't order parts specifically for their secret message, so they would have had to do what you just did, which is go out on a limb and see if there was anything that could have a double meaning on the list. Except that it's such a stretch that you could do it for any item on this list! Example:

"SIGNAL light" means our robot has to do semaphore! "STACK light" means that we will have to stack things! "stack LIGHT" means that they will be lightweight!" "PHOTOreceptor" means the robot has to use a camera to read the semaphore! "limit SWITCH" means that we will switch alliances mid-match! "LIMIT switch" means that there will be a time limit on the match!

This a road we should not travel down.

[bhaidet]

Obviously something on the field will be happening fast enough (and/or often enough) that human judges would have a hard time. This could be anything moving on the field: field elements, game pieces, or even robots.

Whatever is happening that needs to be counted, it seems like the timing of the counting is critical. Maybe the match time will not count continuously, or maybe an event on the field must take place within a certain time. eg. If there was a plate on the floor in front of the feeder stations last year connected to a ROLLER LIMIT SWITCH and as soon as you backed away from the plate a timer would start and you would have to place the tube (detected by a PHOTOTRANSISTOR) within a certain amount of time or it would be invalid. The VERY HIGH SPEED COUNTER could be part of the timing mechanism or could keep track of the scores (it seems like the scoring will be faster than hanging tubes).

I also really like the idea someone posted a while ago about the counter being used in the finale when a bunch of mechanisms fire at once.

Although this is even more conjecture than the rest of my post, at the beginning of this thread everyone was talking about the photogates detecting "breaking a plane" and the only time I ever hear "did the ball break the plane" is while watching a football game. also: in a football game, the clock stops for all kinds of stuff, something that a VERY HIGH SPEED COUNTER could be used for.

Even if its not football (unlikely) the number (10-12 per field someone calculated) is a LOT. Even in Breakaway, there were only two goals per team, so unless there are bunch of goals worth different points (imagining aim high + ski ball) they could plan on lining up the photogates in areas to make "end zones".



I would LOVE a mixture of Aim High and Ski Ball. :ahh: The programmers would have fun.


edit: flying ski-ball game could use all kinds of balls (even tennis) and would explain the extra polycarb if the field was going to be encased for safety

[Garret]

I don't know if anyone said anything about this earlier, but (according to wikipedia) 2012 has been designated Alan Turing Year "commemorating the mathematician, computer pioneer, and code-breaker on the centennial of Turing's birth."

[IndySam]

This has to be by far the fewest posts for a game hint ever. We would normally get this many posts in a matter of hours. Interesting!

[CNettles11]

Nobody wants to look up each individual part. Oh wait, that's what i'm doing right now!

[Tetraman]

This has to be by far the fewest posts for a game hint ever. We would normally get this many posts in a matter of hours. Interesting!

I think that everyone is getting tired of speculation after we spent since the day after the championship in that "2012 game thread".

Plus I agree that it's too much work to really think about this hint. Poems and pictures draw the crowd easy because they are simple.

Or it could be a great conspiracy by the GDC, formulating a game hint! The participation in the game isn't as necessary! Must be a game hint! Has to be.

[Duke461]

Or it could be a great conspiracy by the GDC, formulating a game hint! The participation in the game isn't as necessary! Must be a game hint! Has to be.

15 second teleoperated period, followed by 1:45 of autonomous play, followed by a 15 second autonomous minibot race around a little track? :D

[JaneYoung]

This has to be by far the fewest posts for a game hint ever. We would normally get this many posts in a matter of hours. Interesting!

This type of hint locks out/shuts down the CD members who are creative problem solvers but are not techies. Like me. It also impacts rookie input, I'd imagine. If they send out another one that is more along a less technical line, there will be a lot of speculating and fun posts from the non-techies, I'm sure.

This lack kind of shows you another side to it, doesn't it?

Jane

[Akash Rastogi]

This type of hint locks out/shuts down the CD members who are creative problem solvers but are not techies. Like me. It also impacts rookie input, I'd imagine. If they send out another one that is more along a less technical line, there will be a lot of speculating and fun posts from the non-techies, I'm sure.

This lack kind of shows you another side to it, doesn't it?

Jane


If a student has the ability to use google, they should have the ability to give some sort of input if they want, regardless of being a rookie or non-techies.

[vic burg]

Well, going off of what I know for sure has been on field before (don't know 100% but I do notice some things that have NOT been on the field before), the AMBER light, which when lit will be quite similar to red since it will be orangish and the cameras will have a hard time distinguishing between these lights, which could easily be part of the challenge of autonomous mode is doing a task where the robot has to do something with the lights. There are 14 of the Ambers lights as well, which would be one per field if going by the count of others things that are on the field of 1 each. However, there is also the hood for the Amber light for the robots so that's another something in there, with a count of 2500 so that's obviously for each robot (although I think we'll need more seeing as how team numbers are way up in the 3000s).
Also, the count of 14 e-stops not 19 confuses me slightly since we'll be having 19 fields.
Also, the RSLogix stuff at the bottom.... only 1 and 2 of those items. Quick Google search tells me it's from Rockwell (obviously) and it's a programming software. Now, I don't know if it's just for the field seeing as how small of an amount they are donating but most likely. Do not know if it has been used before, though.
Some interesting things going on, though. :)

[CNettles11]

From looking up some of these parts, I can tell you that an object will more than likely be passing through a goal of some kind. Expect balls.

[thefro526]

Nobody wants to look up each individual part. Oh wait, that's what i'm doing right now!

Chris Elston already did.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1088139&postcount=55

Seems like people don't read through the thread in it's entirety.

[JaneYoung]

If a student has the ability to use google, they should have the ability to give some sort of input if they want, regardless of being a rookie or non-techies.


Actually, Akash, I was thinking of rookie teams - not just the students.

Jane

[CNettles11]

Chris Elston already did.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1088139&postcount=55

Seems like people don't read through the thread in it's entirety.

Our team split up the parts and assigned a few people the parts. We're trying to familiarize the team with the field and what parts will be on it/how they're used.

[vic burg]

Chris Elston already did.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1088139&postcount=55

Seems like people don't read through the thread in it's entirety.

While it's not one of the longest thread we have, it is quite a bit to read through in one sitting if you are a more creative mind like myself and get distracted (as I just did with Narnia) easily or if you wanted to get your ideas down before you forgot them. I do understand reading threads through fully but sometimes you just don't want to.
Thank you though for relinking us to that.

[Cavins240]

I was on the Web for about 30 minutes and came up with this list of sights if anyone is interested...


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http://www.plchardware.com/Products/RA-9324-RLD300ENE.aspx

[nathannfm]

Well, going off of what I know for sure has been on field before (don't know 100% but I do notice some things that have NOT been on the field before), the AMBER light, which when lit will be quite similar to red since it will be orangish and the cameras will have a hard time distinguishing between these lights, which could easily be part of the challenge of autonomous mode is doing a task where the robot has to do something with the lights. There are 14 of the Ambers lights as well, which would be one per field if going by the count of others things that are on the field of 1 each. However, there is also the hood for the Amber light for the robots so that's another something in there, with a count of 2500 so that's obviously for each robot (although I think we'll need more seeing as how team numbers are way up in the 3000s).
Also, the count of 14 e-stops not 19 confuses me slightly since we'll be having 19 fields.
Also, the RSLogix stuff at the bottom.... only 1 and 2 of those items. Quick Google search tells me it's from Rockwell (obviously) and it's a programming software. Now, I don't know if it's just for the field seeing as how small of an amount they are donating but most likely. Do not know if it has been used before, though.
Some interesting things going on, though. :)


Remember, they are building 2 new fields so that's why there are 2 (or a backup 3rd) of some things, or in the case of e-stop buttons one per driver station per 2 fields with one backup each.
And I have seen a few teams on here with 4000#'s but not every number is still active, so I think 2500 is plenty. (most of this was addressed in previous posts)

[DSM33]

The mention of 6 scoring zones per side intrigued me. What if this year's game was something like a mix of Aim High and Breakaway? There would be two stacks of 3 goals at three different heights (imagine LogoMotion now) and they were all worth different amounts of points (probably the same-ish scoring as LogoMotion: 3=highest, 2=middle, 1=lowest). This would prevent the decreased scoring throughout the match like last year, instead teams would have to decide strategically if pushing a load of balls in the low goal is as beneficial as shooting them into the top goal.

To further increase the strategic element of the game, a light is present in each goal and switches randomly between goals throughout the match. The goal with the light on is worth 5 points rather than its normal point value.

Just the game I came up with in my head after reading this thread :D

[Andrew Lawrence]

The mention of 6 scoring zones per side intrigued me. What if this year's game was something like a mix of Aim High and Breakaway? There would be two stacks of 3 goals at three different heights (imagine LogoMotion now) and they were all worth different amounts of points (probably the same-ish scoring as LogoMotion: 3=highest, 2=middle, 1=lowest). This would prevent the decreased scoring throughout the match like last year, instead teams would have to decide strategically if pushing a load of balls in the low goal is as beneficial as shooting them into the top goal.

To further increase the strategic element of the game, a light is present in each goal and switches randomly between goals throughout the match. The goal with the light on is worth 5 points rather than its normal point value.

Just the game I came up with in my head after reading this thread :D

Sounds fun! I like the idea of having a certain goal area being worth more points than the others, and then switching off to another goal area.

[zaphodp.jensen]

Well, going off of what I know for sure has been on field before (don't know 100% but I do notice some things that have NOT been on the field before), the AMBER light, which when lit will be quite similar to red since it will be orangish and the cameras will have a hard time distinguishing between these lights, which could easily be part of the challenge of autonomous mode is doing a task where the robot has to do something with the lights. There are 14 of the Ambers lights as well, which would be one per field if going by the count of others things that are on the field of 1 each. However, there is also the hood for the Amber light for the robots so that's another something in there, with a count of 2500 so that's obviously for each robot (although I think we'll need more seeing as how team numbers are way up in the 3000s).
Also, the count of 14 e-stops not 19 confuses me slightly since we'll be having 19 fields.
Also, the RSLogix stuff at the bottom.... only 1 and 2 of those items. Quick Google search tells me it's from Rockwell (obviously) and it's a programming software. Now, I don't know if it's just for the field seeing as how small of an amount they are donating but most likely. Do not know if it has been used before, though.
Some interesting things going on, though. :)
If you check out my post above, vic burg, you will see the math that I deduced and:
Originally Posted by Bill's Blog 9/15/11
We’re building two additional competition fields this year bringing the total number of fields on the road to 19 (if you include the one packaged and staged for emergency deployment if something should happen to one of the other fields as it travels between events).

They only have to acquire the materials needed to build two more fields, they already have the necessary equipment for the other 17... Thus the reduced number of e-stops, 6 per field for two alliances, plus one master or spare per field...

[DavisC]

Now, a bit ago I went through some old game hints and remember some methods of looking at the picture, like once it had a low-resolution and people made relations with that.

Has anyone else noticed that by default this picture is quite SMALL and needs to be zoomed to be read? (It's beginning to look a lot like ... tennis balls)
Also while it would've made since for tennis balls last year, I think it only should mean its more likely this year b/c the GDC always comes up with several ideas and decides to hold off on some for next yrs picks.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I don't know why, but I'm kinda just against tennis balls. I just do not want them in the 2012 FRC game. I know they have been used before, but that was when the robots were small enough to look like FTC bots. This is FRC. There are a multitude of other reasons why I don't want tennis balls, but I won't go into detail right now.

[mesamb1]

Has anyone else noticed that by default this picture is quite SMALL and needs to be zoomed to be read? (It's beginning to look a lot like ... tennis balls)
This is not guaranteed from browser to browser to be required since it depends on your monitor resolution/Internet browser.

What about a maze game? there are multiple exits from the maze, or your minibot goes to the end of the maze. It would use the sensors, limit switches perhaps to indicate your completion, or entering a new zone. just a thought

[DavisC]

I'm getting to the point where I think we need a hint for the game hint...

but no such luck, going to have to wait for hint #2

[Jash_J]

From looking up some of these parts, I can tell you that an object will more than likely be passing through a goal of some kind. Expect balls.

Balls such as footballs? I noticed on the night before the hint they said that the elfbot had the hint tucked under his arm, signalling that usually football players hold their ball like this, im assuming a football is a speculation we can consider?

[Radical Pi]

Been doing some math on this one, and I'm seeing enough electronics for 21 fields, not 19. It's the only way I can get the numbers on the more expensive electronics to come out evenly.

The 63 ArmorPoint Communications devices, divided among 21 fields means 3 per field, which makes sense (1 for each Alliance plus a spare). The 252 counters would mean 4 counters per Alliance. So either 4 goals, or 2 if they use Breakaway's 2 sensor goal design (though Breakaway's goal counters and high speed don't seem to fit in the same sentence to me).

The 168 limit switches, at 21 fields, is 8 per field. So either 4 per side with no spares (to match a set of 4 goals?), or one per robot with 2 spare. I'm guessing the latter, since I haven't seen any recent game where they haven't had spare electronics for the field. So, some action for each robot, possibly endgame, that involves triggering a limit switch. Human player is also an option too, but I agree with earlier posters that this switch doesn't seem to fit human interaction

[Jim Wilks]

Been doing some math on this one, and I'm seeing enough electronics for 21 fields, not 19. It's the only way I can get the numbers on the more expensive electronics to come out evenly.

Standard practice with this sort of equipment is to buy spares. Often 10% is the figure used. In the case of 19 fields, that's enough for 2 more fields. Nobody wants a critical system down waiting for delivery of a replacement part.

[CNettles11]

Quite possibly, although I speculate that it will be a basketball style game that includes a "Slam Dunk" in the endgame where your robot hangs from the goal (Read: Heavy steel field element,). Polycarbonate is heavy stuff. FIRST might have bought extra thick polycarbonate for backboards on the basketball goals.

[vic burg]

Yup, pretty much what jgw said. I am now confused though - do we have an exact number for how many fields we'll be getting? I apologize if it's been said already but I've been all sorts of numbers and apparently I just can't keep up with the smart masses on here.

[zaphodp.jensen]

Yes, there are now 19 fields. Nineteen (For all the legalese people that like text numbers instead of numerical...). They are building 2 extra fields, so we now have 19 instead of 17 last year...

[vic burg]

Alrighty, thanks Pierce. Well then, with the parts that equal 21 fields, we are probably dedicating 1 field to Hawaii, 1 to Israel (normal, though).
The weeks with the number of regionals/districts are:
Week 1: 5 + 2 qualifiers
Week 2: 9 (1 being the Israel thing) + 4 qualifiers
Week 3: 9 + 2 qualifiers
Week 4: 12 + 3 qualifiers (hello busy! Also, two regionals in Seattle same weekend so 2 fields over there & Hawaii getting a field plenty of time ahead - 15 fields total, though)
Week 5: 11 + 3 qualifiers (More busy with Minnesota getting 2 fields as well and the same for Texas)
Week 6: 6
Week 7: 2

So for sure need at least 19 fields (since some will be stuck or not get there in time between weeks) and having enough spare parts for 3 fields would be the best idea ever especially for week 4 & 5 (that is if they aren't already planning to have 3 spare field for those 2 weeks). I could easily see problems then (end of March), not that I want them to happen but, with 29 regionals/qualifiers going on in the 2 week span.... it will be tense. But also then Hawaii having it's field early.

[EricH]

Alrighty, thanks Pierce. Well then, with the parts that equal 21 fields,
19. Bill said they were raising the number of fields to 19, not 21.

[SenorZ]

I'll start by saying I have not read ALL the previous posts (sacreligious, no?).

I think there will be some sort of projectile/ball used. Seems to follow a loose historical pattern.

MAYBE the there will be a two- or three-tier point-scoring system, and robots can slide a shield, by way of some trigger, to cover/uncover a tier for their alliance, or their opponents (probably with some time limit, and a return-to-low point setting). The projectiles will then go to a hopper, and be re-dispensed somewhere on the field.

Now what type of robot would you make? A fast get-to-the-switch robot, a collect-and-shoot robot, or one that can do both with great mediocrity?

[Andrew Lawrence]

I'm hoping for a game with an actual competitive drive. 3 on 3, the way it's supposed to be. If it's anything like 2000, I'll be mad. I want to be able to score for my team, block the opponent's, and defend my side from the opponents, and the opponent's side from themselves.

And the only way I'll have minibots (I decided last night), is to have them being thrown through hula hoops suspended about 10 feet in the air, and have the robots catch them.

EDIT: The hoops will be on fire. :D

[DavisC]

So have we decided that there is 1 more color stackable light than previous years?

If so I'm thinking, Autonomous-Kinect-Teleop-End

[nathannfm]

So have we decided that there is 1 more color stackable light than previous years?

If so I'm thinking, Autonomous-Kinect-Teleop-End

Good thought, but I think they said somewhere the Kinect would be optional (like it should be) so I don't think they would have an entire segment of the game that it has to be used in, but the light might have something to do with it.

Also it would be really nice if people would read everything that has been said, I am seeing triple posts of the same ideas, and it's especially annoying when those ideas are wrong. :P

[bhaidet]

It seems like most people describing gameplay are settling on one of two options. Either an aim-high/basketball type game with multiple ski-ball-like targets, or a football type game where you need to break a plane with the robot.

The photo sensors could be used either of these games, but the high speed counters point to a multi-goal game and the pseudo-hint on Facebook points towards football.

Unless a third, better option comes out, we will need to wait for the second clue to pick basketball or football.


Can anyone think how one robot being kinect-controlled during autonomous (check the kinect usage thread) could fit into either of these game types?

[zaphodp.jensen]

So have we decided that there is 1 more color stackable light than previous years?

If so I'm thinking, Autonomous-Kinect-Teleop-End

Uhh, I don't believe so, because the amber stack lights are always there, they are just at the bottom of the stacks at the alliance stations, and I believe are for indicating E-stops. The stack lights aren't there in high enough quantities to indicate them being used on all of the fields...

Unless you guys are talking about the clear stack light, which there are 32 of, which would be one per field with 13 extra... If there are that many extra, that's indicative of that item being subject to heavy wear and tear. Maybe there is one of those lights near the center of the field?

[MattC9]

Hey what about frisbees? They can be shot trough the goal, on the three diffrent levels! I would freaking love frisbees as game elements

[Andrew Lawrence]

Hey what about frisbees? They can be shot trough the goal, on the three diffrent levels! I would freaking love frisbees as game elements

Yeah, but imagine all of the difficulties in not only picking them up, but also throwing them.

[MattC9]

Yeah, but imagine all of the difficulties in not only picking them up, but also throwing them.

Could we see a 2005 type thing, pressure pads? And I don't thing trowing them would be that hard.

[jeleser]

or a football type game where you need to break a plane with the robot.

Can anyone think how one robot being kinect-controlled during autonomous (check the kinect usage thread) could fit into either of these game types?

If the game was based on football, possibly an autonomous similar to the kickoff of a football game? The robots could have balls either in possession or pick them up and shoot them to the opponents end of the field as close to the scoring zone as possible? And as far as Kinect use, maybe something similar to 2008's hybrid mode. I wasn't a member that year, so I'm just going on what I've read in the archive game manual, but maybe the robot will still be running on autonomous code that can be slightly altered by Kinect input (distance of kickoff, position/direction, etc)

[Akash Rastogi]

If the game was based on football, possibly an autonomous similar to the kickoff of a football game? The robots could have balls either in possession or pick them up and shoot them to the opponents end of the field as close to the scoring zone as possible? And as far as Kinect use, maybe something similar to 2008's hybrid mode. I wasn't a member that year, so I'm just going on what I've read in the archive game manual, but maybe the robot will still be running on autonomous code that can be slightly altered by Kinect input (distance of kickoff, position/direction, etc)

Using a Kinect to juke out other robots in robot football? Would be totally awesome.

[Andrew Lawrence]

If the game was based on football, possibly an autonomous similar to the kickoff of a football game? The robots could have balls either in possession or pick them up and shoot them to the opponents end of the field as close to the scoring zone as possible? And as far as Kinect use, maybe something similar to 2008's hybrid mode. I wasn't a member that year, so I'm just going on what I've read in the archive game manual, but maybe the robot will still be running on autonomous code that can be slightly altered by Kinect input (distance of kickoff, position/direction, etc)

I can see it now: Human players acting like real football players in autonomous, and the robot following their motions - Hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, SPIN AROUND AND JUMP, hustle, hustle, PASS, CATCH, hustle, hustle, TOUCHDOWN!!!

They do this all while standing in one place. :)

[jeleser]

People love their sports entertainment; a football game would definitely broaden the audience. Imagine the look on some people's faces when we say "Oh yeah, we built a robot that can play football. No big deal." :eek:

[plnyyanks]

They do this all while standing in one place. :)

That's easy to fix. Just mount the Kinect to a minibot, and use a second Kinect to control the minibot so that the first Kinect follows the human player. It's foolproof. :D

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Yeah, but imagine all of the difficulties in not only picking them up, but also throwing them.

All the more reason it would be frisbees.

[Andrew Lawrence]

All the more reason it would be frisbees.

I like your thinking son! :D

[Andrew Lawrence]

People love their sports entertainment; a football game would definitely broaden the audience. Imagine the look on some people's faces when we say "Oh yeah, we built a robot that can play football. No big deal." :eek:

Imagine showing the school's football team! It's been a dream of mine to build a football-playing robot, and have it compete with the team.

(I already have about 23 sketches of possibilities. Tank drive, swerve, launcher, kicker, a rotating mechanism, everything. :D)

[jeleser]

If the game were based on football and there was an end zone, what about using the photosensors to accurately tell when the robot breaks the vertical plane of an end zone? If a robot were to come very close and suddenly backtrack/stop, maybe refs would have difficulty making the call

[DavisC]

Would we be allowed to challenge the play?.. always wanted to do that with a ref

[the man]

I have no idea about this hint. But I would like to see a game like 09 in the fact that there were huge impacts. Even on the slippery floor robots were so "out of control" that it was awesome fun. Yes lets do a game that is a lot of fun for the drive team, maybe a few less pinning / collision rules. :yikes:

[gyroscopeRaptor]

Is the only justification for footballs we have the nebulous "alternating sports years" pattern?

Footballs would be a hard game piece in the goals. An AimHigh high goal would likely jam often, Breakaway low goals would have no way of returning to the center like Breakaway's soccer balls, any center goal would be easily "camped" with a quick return (think 469 only more effective) and still be susceptible to jams, and side goals where Lunacy outposts were would be still worse.

Before you say "they haven't been used," look at those reasons and consider why the GDC hasn't made them yet. Remember, plenty of other pieces haven't been used in a few years. We could just as easily use stacks or tetras.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Jim Beck from California FIRST gave a talk at the MVRT workshops yesterday, and said though he wasn't involved with the GDC, he knows the design process. He said to look to years past, and for the most part all games use elements from previous games. That's what he said. So for my advice, look at elements in previous years, and put them together.

[DavisC]

Yea, this morning at 8 AM I watched all the game animations since 2003, and a round of each game...

Anyone know where I could find an archive from b4 2003? it starts getting iffy at that point.

[thefro526]

Yea, this morning at 8 AM I watched all the game animations since 2003, and a round of each game...

Anyone know where I could find an archive from b4 2003? it starts getting iffy at that point.

Team 45 has solid archives from pre-2004 or so. http://www.technokats.org/history-project/

As for game animations, I believe that 2003 was the first year for them. Video from 1992-2002 should be on youtube if you have the time to find it.

[EricH]

Yea, this morning at 8 AM I watched all the game animations since 2003, and a round of each game...

Anyone know where I could find an archive from b4 2003? it starts getting iffy at that point.
No animations before 2003. For anything else, the TechnoKats History Project is one of the places I look; you could also find some pictures and rules at http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/frc-20th-season# (click the links not the pictures).

[DavisC]

My standing position on the game is a Aim High repeatish. Involve small (solid on the outside) balls (like tennis balls or cushiony ones like stress balls) have to be shot into a upper goal or into a lower goal that has a slight uphill. I am into the consideration of some interesting obstacles in the field whic would probably involve the end game (thinking of something that has an impact on the devision of the field like a series of mini bumbs the robot could easily get stuck on, or possibly flip.

Alteration Idea to the game: corner dumping goals instead of shooting high.

In second place is: one of the interesting ball holding mechanisms that come every now and then (looks like the trailer yr). Just unsure of the whole photswitches then (unless theres also side goals)

third: some racing/stacking game: the racing was almost like to first time they tried that and they might plan to continue that in the pattern, probably add the box stacking game and robots have to be able to break through them easily.

Just some food for thought...

[EricH]

Alteration Idea to the game: corner dumping goals instead of shooting high.


Oh, you mean like in Aim High? That would explain all the photodetectors... too bad I don't see manual counting devices on the list.

(For those that don't get it, the goal counting software in Aim High was notoriously unreliable, despite good hardware. The manual backup worked far better.)

[Andrew Lawrence]

Going with the Aim High idea, I think there will be a bumpy field, or something of the sort. The game pieces would be harder to collect, and teams would use Andymark's new pneumatic tires to traverse the bumpy terrain.

Scoring would be like either Aim High, Lunacy, or a different method.

[Marc S.]

Going with the Aim High idea, I think there will be a bumpy field, or something of the sort. The game pieces would be harder to collect, and teams would use Andymark's new pneumatic tires to traverse the bumpy terrain.

Scoring would be like either Aim High, Lunacy, or a different method.

For everyone, AndyMark's new pneumatic tire has Nothing to do with the 2012 game.
If it does then it would be by accident.

[Andrew Schreiber]

This type of hint locks out/shuts down the CD members who are creative problem solvers but are not techies. Like me. It also impacts rookie input, I'd imagine. If they send out another one that is more along a less technical line, there will be a lot of speculating and fun posts from the non-techies, I'm sure.

This lack kind of shows you another side to it, doesn't it?

Jane

More so than the 2008 game hint of the IR board? What about the 04 hint of the song Stairway to Heaven? Sort of cuts out the crowd that are only allowed to listen to Tony Bennet.

[Astechz_Nick]

On the topic of the size of the game pieces:
(all speculation so far is that they are balls)
After competing in FIRST last year my robotics team competed in the Ontario Skills Competition. This game was similiar to Aim High except that the robots were 2'x2'x2' and the balls were probably the size of tennis balls. With this in mind i think that the game pieces need to proportional to the size of the robot and quite frankly i can't imagine having those game pieces on something the size of our FRC bot. Then again this is FIRST so who knows?

On the topic of game design:
From what I am thinking right now there will be one center goalpost (think american football's goalpost) with a box for balls to land in on either end. You would shoot through the goalpost and have the ball land in your alliances box for two points a ball or you could shoot into your alliances box without it going through the center goalpost for one point. This(the goalposts and boxes) would all be on a center platform with ramps at either end.

[mesamb1]

So have we decided that there is 1 more color stackable light than previous years?

If so I'm thinking, Autonomous-Kinect-Teleop-End

Actually, what no one has discussed. Is there going to be three alliances? Red, Green, Blue?
Last year we had one amber, and one alliance light per team's driver station. Then a stack of an amber, red, and blue light at the score table. That would mean an order of 8 red, 8 blue, and 14 amber for two more fields. However, it does not appear that they have ordered enough red and blue lights for the two new fields.
BUT, We had 16 green lights per field from last year. Plenty to use this year as a new alliances light, and 4 new green lights. Perfect for a 2-2-2 set up.

[Astechz_Nick]

From what I understand they are keeping the fields the same size so where would they put this 3rd alliance so that they have no advantage or disadvantage compared to the other two alliances?

[Hallry]

From what I understand they are keeping the fields the same size so where would they put this 3rd alliance so that they have no advantage or disadvantage compared to the other two alliances?

Also, where would this third alliance station be located? Or would one team of the new alliance be on one side of the field, and the other team on the opposite side?

[Astechz_Nick]

Also, where would this third alliance station be located? Or would one team of the new alliance be on one side of the field, and the other team on the opposite side?

This was sort of my point. I do not think FIRST will try to fix something that is not broken.

[Andrew Lawrence]

For everyone, AndyMark's new pneumatic tire has Nothing to do with the 2012 game.
If it does then it would be by accident.

I know, but you know how fun it is making speculations! :) Maybe that's what Andy wants you to think...

[bhaidet]

On the topic of the size of the game pieces:
From what I am thinking right now there will be one center goalpost (think american football's goalpost) with a box for balls to land in on either end. You would shoot through the goalpost and have the ball land in your alliances box for two points a ball or you could shoot into your alliances box without it going through the center goalpost for one point. This(the goalposts and boxes) would all be on a center platform with ramps at either end.

Goalposts: Great way to combine the football clue with the Aim High speculation!

[Hallry]

On the topic of the size of the game pieces:
From what I am thinking right now there will be one center goalpost (think american football's goalpost) with a box for balls to land in on either end. You would shoot through the goalpost and have the ball land in your alliances box for two points a ball or you could shoot into your alliances box without it going through the center goalpost for one point. This(the goalposts and boxes) would all be on a center platform with ramps at either end.

I don't know, that sounds a little bit too similar to Aim High...I don't think the GDC would have a game that much alike to a previous one.

But, then again, they did have Rack n' Roll and Logomotion...

[Andrew Lawrence]

On the topic of the size of the game pieces:
(all speculation so far is that they are balls)
After competing in FIRST last year my robotics team competed in the Ontario Skills Competition. This game was similiar to Aim High except that the robots were 2'x2'x2' and the balls were probably the size of tennis balls. With this in mind i think that the game pieces need to proportional to the size of the robot and quite frankly i can't imagine having those game pieces on something the size of our FRC bot. Then again this is FIRST so who knows?

On the topic of game design:
From what I am thinking right now there will be one center goalpost (think american football's goalpost) with a box for balls to land in on either end. You would shoot through the goalpost and have the ball land in your alliances box for two points a ball or you could shoot into your alliances box without it going through the center goalpost for one point. This(the goalposts and boxes) would all be on a center platform with ramps at either end.

I agree with your thoughts on game piece size.

I love your idea of the goal post. Just the thought in my head: A mixture of Aim High, Breakaway, and Logomotion. There will be a few sets of goal posts on each side of the field, with varying scores (a la Logomotion). One of the goal posts on each side are for counter-scoring, which will be from 12 to 24 inches in diameter, much smaller than the other ones. When robots throw balls through their goal posts, the human players collect the balls and return them to the field (a la Breakaway), by throwing them into the field. BUT, if they throw the balls returned to them into the opponent's counter-scoring goal posts, they'll lower their opponent's score. Balls that miss are returned back to the field via a slope on each side of the field. For legal rule reasons to make the game fair, thrown balls from human players must go farther than a certain line on the field, somewhere between the alliance wall and the halfway section. For the end game, robots climb their opponent's slopes on the opposite end of the field, and launch as many balls as they can into either their own scoring goals, for a set amount of points, or their counter-scoring goals for a larger bonus. Autonomous will be human players controlling the robot via connect to collect the balls from the field (which are placed at random).

Just something I thought of. What do you think?

[Andrew Lawrence]

I don't know, that sounds a little bit too similar to Aim High...I don't think the GDC would have a game that much alike to a previous one.

But, then again, they did have Rack n' Roll and Logomotion...

Jim Beck, from FIRST in California, talked to us at a workshop yesterday and said that even though he wasn't on the GDC, he knew the design process. He told us that a lot of the things in FRC games are taken from a variety of other games. Different elements and rules will be taken from other games.

His example to us: Lunacy. Lunacy used the game piece collecting and launching form Aim High and the trailer from the game with the trailer (I forgot.). He said Dean told him that he wanted a hard to maneuver playing field, just like Maize Craze, the first FRC competition.

His last words to us: If you look at all of the previous years' things, including any year, not just ones 6 or 7 years ago, and piece things together with the hints, you can easily guess the game.

He also told us to stay off Chief Delphi. Apparently the endless threads about game hints are bad for our health. :rolleyes:

[Hallry]

Jim Beck, from FIRST in California, talked to us at a workshop yesterday and said that even though he wasn't on the GDC, he knew the design process. He told us that a lot of the things in FRC games are taken from a variety of other games. Different elements and rules will be taken from other games.

His last words to us: If you look at all of the previous years' things, including any year, not just ones 6 or 7 years ago, and piece things together with the hints, you can easily guess the game.

Ah, okay. Well then, continuing on this idea of a football-like Aim High, didn't Ramp N' Roll have a field goal-like objects in it, on ramps?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/1995_game.jpg

[Andrew Lawrence]

Ah, okay. Well then, continuing on this idea of a football-like Aim High, didn't Ramp N' Roll have a field goal-like objects in it, on ramps?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/1995_game.jpg

Well, judging by your picture, and the assumption that that was Ramp 'N' Roll, then yes, I guess it did. So maybe, like Rack 'N' Roll and Logomotion, we'll have something like Ramp 'N' Roll and Aim High together! Or MORE! :D

[DavisC]

Now, just thinking about (maybe some influence from me not wanting a 2011 repeat), I do not believe it will involve directly picking something up (more like throwing it or shooting it) and I understand the small ball issue and that's why I was kind-of thinking more along the lines of a soft ball that is maybe slightly smaller than a soccer ball while bigger than a tennis ball.
So its BIG, but small. And who says you can't play football with a round ball?

now that for the most part we have plenty of ideas on the game plan, I want to think about the obstacles/end-game and develop that aspect some... Off to work

[PAR_WIG1350]

Ah, okay. Well then, continuing on this idea of a football-like Aim High, didn't Ramp N' Roll have a field goal-like objects in it, on ramps?


Yes, from what I hear, Dean Kamen wasn't a fan. A cool fact about Ramp N' Roll, it was the first game to be scored as it was played rather than determining the score based on the final position of all objects.

On a side note, I used Chrome's developers tools to see if maybe the hint was hidden on the page, like in the comments of the source code. Nothing there.

[Jessi Kaestle]

Okay everyone says to look at old games but no one is looking much past '06... What if the sensors are used to see if a see-saw like from '01's Diabolical Dynamics has broken the plane of parallel. You would need high frequency sensors for something like that as it is likely to teeter often...

[DavisC]

On a side note, I used Chrome's developers tools to see if maybe the hint was hidden on the page, like in the comments of the source code. Nothing there.

Yea, I spent some time with that too (not that I truly knew what I was doing...), But no such luck...ugh we need some more ideas. Like hacking into the computer that posted the blog and looking at all the files.... (this is what happens when left with a game hint for too longgg )

[vic burg]

Uhh, I don't believe so, because the amber stack lights are always there, they are just at the bottom of the stacks at the alliance stations, and I believe are for indicating E-stops. The stack lights aren't there in high enough quantities to indicate them being used on all of the fields...

Unless you guys are talking about the clear stack light, which there are 32 of, which would be one per field with 13 extra... If there are that many extra, that's indicative of that item being subject to heavy wear and tear. Maybe there is one of those lights near the center of the field?

None of the color lights are high enough quantity, then. Only a few per the others. But in that case, why are there 2500 lenses for the amber lights? That's what really throwing me off, since I don't think each team needs their own?

[EricH]

None of the color lights are high enough quantity, then. Only a few per the others. But in that case, why are there 2500 lenses for the amber lights? That's what really throwing me off, since I don't think each team needs their own?
There are two (2) types of amber lights, in two (2) different quantities.

1) Panel Mount Selectable Steady/Flashing LED, 12V, qty. 2500. Every single robot has carried one since 2007. I don't expect that that will change this year, given that quantity. You'll pick it up 1/7/2011 with the KOP.

2) Control Tower Stack Light, Amber Steady, qty 14. Not enough for all 19 fields, but almost certainly enough to equip the two new fields, replace that part on any field needing it, and still have a few spares lying around.

The other Control Tower Stack Light quantities indicate that they're for the two new fields; there also are a few other items associated with them that seem to be in spare/new field quantities.

[Nick Lawrence]

There are two (2) types of amber lights, in two (2) different quantities.

1) Panel Mount Selectable Steady/Flashing LED, 12V, qty. 2500. Every single robot has carried one since 2007. I don't expect that that will change this year, given that quantity. You'll pick it up 1/7/2011 with the KOP.

2) Control Tower Stack Light, Amber Steady, qty 14. Not enough for all 19 fields, but almost certainly enough to equip the two new fields, replace that part on any field needing it, and still have a few spares lying around.

The other Control Tower Stack Light quantities indicate that they're for the two new fields; there also are a few other items associated with them that seem to be in spare/new field quantities.

Actually, in 2008 the robots did not use the Amber "BFL" from 2007. They have used them since 2009 though.

-Nick

[MichaelBick]

I like the idea about multiple goals(more than 3). It explains the reasoning for so many photo sensors, and is much more sensible than using them to see if a robot has broken a plane. Furthermore it seems like a game where older teams could excel, yet easy enough and understandable enough for newer teams and spectators.

[TrevorJ]

Alrighty, thanks Pierce. Well then, with the parts that equal 21 fields, we are probably dedicating 1 field to Hawaii, 1 to Israel (normal, though).
The weeks with the number of regionals/districts are:
Week 1: 5 + 2 qualifiers
Week 2: 9 (1 being the Israel thing) + 4 qualifiers
Week 3: 9 + 2 qualifiers
Week 4: 12 + 3 qualifiers (hello busy! Also, two regionals in Seattle same weekend so 2 fields over there & Hawaii getting a field plenty of time ahead - 15 fields total, though)
Week 5: 11 + 3 qualifiers (More busy with Minnesota getting 2 fields as well and the same for Texas)
Week 6: 6
Week 7: 2

So for sure need at least 19 fields (since some will be stuck or not get there in time between weeks) and having enough spare parts for 3 fields would be the best idea ever especially for week 4 & 5 (that is if they aren't already planning to have 3 spare field for those 2 weeks). I could easily see problems then (end of March), not that I want them to happen but, with 29 regionals/qualifiers going on in the 2 week span.... it will be tense. But also then Hawaii having it's field early.

Actually, FiM uses their own their own fields. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1045725#post1045725). I'm not sure if MAR is doing this or not, but at the very most this is the number of FIRST supplied fields needed each week:
Week 1: 6
Week 2: 12
Week 3: 9
Week 4: 13
Week 5: 12
Week 6: 6
Week 7: 1

[Robert Cawthon]

Also, where would this third alliance station be located? Or would one team of the new alliance be on one side of the field, and the other team on the opposite side?

Put one of each alliance on each end. That way, each alliance has one team on one end and one on the other. Would interfere with communication, but it would be even.

EDIT: I am thinking of the nerf balls like Aim High. And Frisbees would not be hard to pick up. In the Rack and Roll kit of parts, there was a vacuum system. It could be used here.

[tidymaze]

Maybe it's nothing related to the supplies, but the name of the company, Rockwell. Bill's other post was titled Over the River and Through the Woods...and now "rock"well...just my 2 cents. :yikes:
Combined with the weight of the new field, you may be on to something!

In any case, previous hints have been on the esoteric side, so my thought is that the list of parts is superfluous. And speaking with people who have been involved with putting together fields, almost everything on the list has been there before.

[thefro526]

I don't believe anyone has posted the Technical Information of the Switch that was included in the BOM in this thread yet so here it is:

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/378677_10150392777692693_601157692_8780509_6917689 10_n.jpg

(Thanks to Chris Elston for posting a link to the PDF containing this info.)

The switch seems to be a little more heavy than what would be used for a minibot... (Requires about 4x the force as last year's tower, IIRC)

[MechEng83]

I've got it!

Rockwell -- Rock + Well

A well is something which contains a reservoir of liquid.

A liquid rock would be --- LAVA.

The field will be made of "liquid hot magma"!

[GlassPrison142]

At least football is better than when people were saying hockey. I'd see that working out to be a similar design as breakaway, which was not a fun game in my opinion.

But, people also call me crazy because Overdrive was my favorite so does my opinion even matter? ;p

[Kimmeh]

I've got it!

Rockwell -- Rock + Well

A well is something from which contains a reservoir of liquid.

A liquid rock would be --- LAVA.

The field will be made of "liquid hot magma"!

Robots playing "The Floor is Lava" game! While playing the game, they can't touch the floor otherwise they get a penalty!

[Brandon_L]

At least football is better than when people were saying hockey. I'd see that working out to be a similar design as breakaway, which was not a fun game in my opinion.

But, people also call me crazy because Overdrive was my favorite so does my opinion even matter? ;p

Nah, I loved overdrive. followed by breakaway. I also like to pretend 09 never happened.

[Eric Sakshaug]

Has anyone else noticed the correlation between the numbers for very high speed counter, and the photoelectric switches? The difference is two. I think that this might be where a minibot would come in, if anywhere. Minibots could be faster than normal robots (STEVE!) and with the possibility of six minibots breaking a beam, perhaps several times in a row, the speed on the counter may be necessary. (2)

That, or there might be no minibot, and the robots may have to manipulate several small things into a hopper (ping pong balls? No, too easy to find for FRC, especially near the start of the spring semester for most colleges(tennis balls in the middle of winter are a completely different story, however.)), breaking the beam several times in rapid succession, especially if a team has a hopper that can hold several items at once. A photoelectric sensor would also be required in this case, as a limit switch might not have time to reset, or may not even be able to trigger if the items are too lightweight. (1)

Or, a combination of the two: the robot might have to manipulate a swarm of minibots into a hopper, and they all fly over to a limit switch in the back of the hopper. Your score is reduced based on how many minibots you use. (3)

Of course, the sensors might also be able to detect if the water is overflowing from the game field. (4)

In conclusion, obviously it's a water game.

Kidding. The numbers after each paragraph denotes my perceived likelihood of each event happening, the lower, the more likely.

[the man]

Nah, I loved overdrive. followed by breakaway. I also like to pretend 09 never happened.

Why you hat'in on lunacy. That was my favorite game. High speed collisions little control. Great autonomous. Ahhh memories.

[holygrail]

I think that between the new pneumatic wheels from AndyMark and the "Rockwell" name, the field is going to be rather bumpy. That would also explain the heavy field situation. I have a feeling the GDC wants to mix up the drive trains from mecanum, swerve, and six wheel, and suspension would be an interesting challenge. Of course, nothing but speculation on my part.

[Hallry]

I think that between the new pneumatic wheels from AndyMark and the "Rockwell" name, the field is going to be rather bumpy.

Once again...

For everyone, AndyMark's new pneumatic tire has Nothing to do with the 2012 game.
If it does then it would be by accident.

[pfreivald]

Once again...

I don't know that this can be stressed enough! AndyMark is a business. FIRST is a non-profit. Tailoring a FIRST game specifically to boost a particular company's sales would be


unethical
illegal
waaaay outside of GP
dangerous to FIRST's 501(c)3 status


I'm quite certain that Andy, Mark, and the folks at FIRST do not collude in such a manner. Leave that to Congress.

[thefro526]

I don't know that this can be stressed enough! AndyMark is a business. FIRST is a non-profit. Tailoring a FIRST game specifically to boost a particular company's sales would be


unethical
illegal
waaaay outside of GP
dangerous to FIRST's 501(c)3 status


I'm quite certain that Andy, Mark, and the folks at FIRST do not collude in such a manner. Leave that to Congress.

Not that I'm debating your point, but there is some logic behind connecting AM's new Pneumatic wheel to the 2012 Game.

In 2009, when everyone was forced to use the same wheel, AM built a custom wheel and was the sole supplier for it.

That being said, there has been a market in FRC for Pneumatic wheels since the pre-alliance days. Coming out with a pre-hubbed easy to use Pneumatic Wheel is just good business.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Robots playing "The Floor is Lava" game! While playing the game, they can't touch the floor otherwise they get a penalty!

If my robot fell into lava, I'd much rather get a penalty than what would most likely happen! (For those unfamiliar with reactions involving robots and lava, it usually ends in a melt down, and no more robot.)

So if my robot somehow falls into lava, PLEASE give me all the penalties in the world! Just let my robot survive!

[Brandon_L]

Why you hat'in on lunacy. That was my favorite game. High speed collisions little control. Great autonomous. Ahhh memories.

It was our worst year to date, mix of bad luck and...well just about everything.

What I'd like to see is more of a terrain type of thing going on on the field. Breakaway was a good start, but every game I've experienced were pretty much flat.

[artK]

I would like to say that the goal of FIRST is to inspire innovators. To create a non-original game would be hypocritical of their mission, for originality is a keystone of innovation.
So why, I ask, would Dean Kamen and the other designers create a game based on sports, in an interview from The New Cool Kamen states that the amount of idolism of sports was a driving factor in the creation of FIRST. Additionally, why would he have games that were similar to previous games, which allow veteran teams to have small advantages for their knowledge of the elements. the goal is to create a game which requires a design challenge.

[Ninja_Bait]

I would like to say that the goal of FIRST is to inspire innovators. To create a non-original game would be hypocritical of their mission, for originality is a keystone of innovation.
So why, I ask, would Dean Kamen and the other designers create a game based on sports, in an interview from The New Cool Kamen states that the amount of idolism of sports was a driving factor in the creation of FIRST. Additionally, why would he have games that were similar to previous games, which allow veteran teams to have small advantages for their knowledge of the elements. the goal is to create a game which requires a design challenge.

FIRST has to achieve a balance between engaging future engineers and engaging audiences. Sports-themed games are usually easier to understand for the audience though they have a certain amount of predictability. A unique engineering challenge, like the Tetras in 2004, is interesting for FIRST, but confusing for everyone else.

[JB987]

FIRST has to achieve a balance between engaging future engineers and engaging audiences. Sports-themed games are usually easier to understand for the audience though they have a certain amount of predictability. A unique engineering challenge, like the Tetras in 2004, is interesting for FIRST, but confusing for everyone else.

And the action on the field must be visible (including the movements of game pieces) in order for spectators in large arena type venues to be able to follow the action...which therefore rules out any small objects like ping pong balls, tennis balls, etc. For over a decade all movable game pieces have been no smaller than the nerf balls in 06...for a reason.;)

[nathannfm]

the action on the field must be visible (including the movements of game pieces) in order for spectators in large arena type venues to be able to follow the action...which therefore rules out any small objects like ping pong balls, tennis balls, etc. For over a decade all movable game pieces have been no smaller than the nerf balls in 06...for a reason.;)

I wouldn't count out tennis balls just because of their size, I think it would be quite easy to see them flying through the air and rolling around on the ground in any stadium we play in. They do play the actual game in stadiums much large than we have, and with only one ball. Also some people have said that they would be too small for FRC robots to manipulate but that would be part of the challenge, you don't want a game that's too easy do you? There may be some other reasons not to use them like the fact that they go bad and loose their bounce after a while. This might make using the same balls in week 1 as week 7 a problem.

Also just something I thought of: what if the field was not static, what if it shot out the tennis balls like a tennis ball machine and our robots had to do something with them before, say, they bounced once (from the rules of tennis). That could be something to use the counters and sensors for (counting the balls the come out of the field and counting what happens to them), as well as present a use for the Kinect. The driver would actually be able to swing to make the robot react.
Just some thoughts that might make someone else thing of something. :]

[IndySam]

Tennis balls are easy to see, anyone ever been to a tennis match?

It would also be a fun challenge to try.

I don't think it will come to pass because of the potential field reset difficulties.

[zaphodp.jensen]

Rockwell Automation is a highly praised company that deals with sensors and control automation. THE NAME IS PURELY A COINCIDENCE BECAUSE THEY SELL THE SENSORS THAT ARE BEING USED. That is all. Thank you.

And sorry if it appears that I am screaming, I just want to make my point EASILY VISIBLE! ;)

[Andrew Lawrence]

I would like to say that the goal of FIRST is to inspire innovators. To create a non-original game would be hypocritical of their mission, for originality is a keystone of innovation.
So why, I ask, would Dean Kamen and the other designers create a game based on sports, in an interview from The New Cool Kamen states that the amount of idolism of sports was a driving factor in the creation of FIRST. Additionally, why would he have games that were similar to previous games, which allow veteran teams to have small advantages for their knowledge of the elements. the goal is to create a game which requires a design challenge.

While your statements make sense, if you look at any FIRST game within the last, oh, 7 to 8 years for example, you'll see a lot of repeated ideas and rules. If you look even further, you'll see things that were used in the 90's that have been used in recent games. FIRST has found the formula for a successful game, and now they are just mixing previous inputs to get the same successful outputs.

I hope this makes sense. If it doesn't I can try to explain it better.

Also, Welcome to Chief Delphi! :D

[BJC]

I just really hope that the game does not share similarities with previous ones. I think that I would especially dislike a game which involves shooting smaller-ish sized balls. The reason being -- everyone already knows how to build great robots that shoot balls. They were built in 2006 and 2009. It takes alot out of the design process when you already have models of what works. 2010 was great for this, no one had ever built a kicker or ball magnet before. On the opposite side of the spectrum in 2011 most robots were heavily inspired by what worked in 2007.

Oh, but I still think that playpen balls would make a great small game object. They are big enough to not constantly drive over and to see from far away (and come in red and blue.) Additionally, they are VERY durable despite there light weight, I would venture to say that most balls could last the entire season. Most of this was picked up from playing with a 118 ball at Worlds. Anyways, my vote goes to them for a small ball for a game piece. Otherwise, I would love to see pool noodles cut into 12" and 8" lengths (although I bet that would leave quite a mess on the field.)

[Andrew Lawrence]

I just really hope that the game does not share similarities with previous ones. I think that I would especially dislike a game which involves shooting smaller-ish sized balls. The reason being -- everyone already knows how to build great robots that shoot balls. They were built in 2006 and 2009. It takes alot out of the design process when you already have models of what works. 2010 was great for this, no one had ever built a kicker or ball magnet before. On the opposite side of the spectrum in 2011 most robots were heavily inspired by what worked in 2007.

I agree. I haven't been in FRC too long, but from my experience, Breakaway was my favorite game. Not only was it easy to understand for everyone, but it was original. I don't like Logomotion as much because it heavily resembled 2007, and I just knew that teams would use ideas from previous robots.

That's why I'm hoping for a sports theme that has NOT been used before, ie. Football, Baseball?, Hockey, etc.

[Walter Deitzler]

I am personally hoping for a shooting type game, such as aim high or lunacy. Someone (I forget who) posted something about the game being an aim high/logomotion combo, where there would be 3 levels of scoring, scored by shooting balls through hoops or at targets. Same as in Logomotion, the top row would be worth 3, second row worth 2, and bottom row (maybe breakaway goal type things) worth 1. I have already spent countless hours of classtime designing robots on pieces of paper to accomodate a shooter, and am all pumped for that type of game. I know that I shouldn't get my hopes up, but I think it would be fun. Really though, I just cannot wait for kickoff.

[brunettegmp]

I agree with a lot of people for wanting to keep the game original. It would be pretty cool if they tied the game into the 2012 theme of world ending...idk how...but it'd be fitting.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I agree with a lot of people for wanting to keep the game original. It would be pretty cool if they tied the game into the 2012 theme of world ending...idk how...but it'd be fitting.

for the endgame, a horizontal pole lowers to 20 feet above the field, going from alliance station to alliance station. At the 5 second mark, the floors retract and all robots not hanging on the pole fall into oblivion! And to make it more realistic, they will dig 50 foot holes beneath each field for the bots to fall into!

[brunettegmp]

for the endgame, a horizontal pole lowers to 20 feet above the field, going from alliance station to alliance station. At the 5 second mark, the floors retract and all robots not hanging on the pole fall into oblivion! And to make it more realistic, they will dig 50 foot holes beneath each field for the bots to fall into!

hahahaha that'd be pretty awesome...maybe it turns into battle bots?!?! :)

[MechEng83]

I agree with a lot of people for wanting to keep the game original. It would be pretty cool if they tied the game into the 2012 theme of world ending...idk how...but it'd be fitting.

Lava game -- with a Mayan pyramid we have to climb in the middle for the endgame.

[Ninja_Bait]

for the endgame, a horizontal pole lowers to 20 feet above the field, going from alliance station to alliance station. At the 5 second mark, the floors retract and all robots not hanging on the pole fall into oblivion! And to make it more realistic, they will dig 50 foot holes beneath each field for the bots to fall into!

And they will be filled with WATER and parts from Rockwell Automation that weren't really important at all!

Hint solved. Done.

[Walter Deitzler]

I agree with a lot of people for wanting to keep the game original. It would be pretty cool if they tied the game into the 2012 theme of world ending...idk how...but it'd be fitting.

Maybe the endgame could be throwing minibots into some mayan sacrifice fire to prevent the world from ending. Then we ccould rid the world of the minibot problem once and for all!

[Andrew Lawrence]

Lava game -- with a Mayan pyramid we have to climb in the middle for the endgame.

Only if lava spews out the top of the pyramid as the robots ascend! :D

[Andrew Lawrence]

Maybe the endgame could be throwing minibots into some mayan sacrifice fire to prevent the world from ending. Then we ccould rid the world of the minibot problem once and for all!

I don't care if it's in the 2012 game or not: My team is SO DOING THAT!

[brunettegmp]

Maybe the endgame could be throwing minibots into some mayan sacrifice fire to prevent the world from ending. Then we ccould rid the world of the minibot problem once and for all!

I don't care if it's in the 2012 game or not: My team is SO DOING THAT!


hahahaha!!! agreed!

[DSM33]

what if this game was more of a race game like 2004 but with alliances of three racing against each other to fill up a hopper with tennis balls/playpen balls/etc. on the other side of the field from where the game objects are received. first team to a certain amount before the time limit wins!

[Walter Deitzler]

Only if lava spews out the top of the pyramid as the robots ascend! :D

I say send the minibots first...

[Ninja_Bait]

I say send the minibots first...

And the bumper rules...

[Siri]

Tennis balls are easy to see, anyone ever been to a tennis match?

It would also be a fun challenge to try.

I don't think it will come to pass because of the potential field reset difficulties.Also I've only ever been a ref once, but the thought of having anything like a tennis ball machine on the field with robots trying to manipulate (swing? :yikes:) at them in the air is really pretty terrifying.

Seriously, this is legitimately dangerous on an FRC field. I don't think we'll be seeing any tennis balls or golf balls, etc, moving through the air at relatively high speeds or long distances.

[Robert Cawthon]

Also I've only ever been a ref once, but the thought of having anything like a tennis ball machine on the field with robots trying to manipulate (swing? :yikes:) at them in the air is really pretty terrifying.

Seriously, this is legitimately dangerous on an FRC field. I don't think we'll be seeing any tennis balls or golf balls, etc, moving through the air at relatively high speeds or long distances.

How about tennis balls as obstacle to driving, or having to herd them (not pick up and throw) or having to stack them? Trying to stack them could be interesting! Nearly impossible, but interesting.

[Andrew Lawrence]

How about tennis balls as obstacle to driving, or having to herd them (not pick up and throw) or having to stack them? Trying to stack them could be interesting! Nearly impossible, but interesting.

Or even better, make them the floor! Like the corn in Maize Craze!

[HumblePie]

what if this game was more of a race game like 2004 but with alliances of three racing against each other to fill up a hopper with tennis balls/playpen balls/etc. on the other side of the field from where the game objects are received. first team to a certain amount before the time limit wins!

Building on this and others:

This year is the 20th anniversary of the first video game (Pong) and the 10th anniversary of Super Mario Kart. What if our alliances completed laps (racing) while collecting playpen balls, and shooting/dumping them into goals? The high speed counters can be used for scoring, whether it be in goals or as a lap counter. Let the mayhem ensue!

[HumblePie]

Lava game -- with a Mayan pyramid we have to climb in the middle for the endgame.


I love the Mayan Pyramid idea. We're about due for stairs.

[notmattlythgoe]

If I'm imagining things correctly, the beams would only be useful at counting things that can only pass through a goal one at a time, if you have 2 go in at the same time then you'll run into problems.

[Taylor]

Building on this and others:

This year is the 20th anniversary of the first video game (Pong) and the 10th anniversary of Super Mario Kart. What if our alliances completed laps (racing) while collecting playpen balls, and shooting/dumping them into goals? The high speed counters can be used for scoring, whether it be in goals or as a lap counter. Let the mayhem ensue!

Oh, a combination of Lunacy and Overdrive? Cool. Done (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/33875).

[jdunston94]

Building on this and others:

This year is the 20th anniversary of the first video game (Pong) and the 10th anniversary of Super Mario Kart. What if our alliances completed laps (racing) while collecting playpen balls, and shooting/dumping them into goals? The high speed counters can be used for scoring, whether it be in goals or as a lap counter. Let the mayhem ensue!

ALSO THE 100th ANNIVERSARY OF THE TITANIC! how many times do i have to say it? i shall concede once the game is released or it is proven an impossible option. you dont need water to commemorate the sinking...

[rcmolloy]

If I'm imagining things correctly, the beams would only be useful at counting things that can only pass through a goal one at a time, if you have 2 go in at the same time then you'll run into problems.

I had mentioned this to AdamHeard yesterday. However, multiple items can be scored but have to eventually pass through the photosensors one at a time. It is very possible that this could be achieved with a bottleneck effect like in 2010. The only downside is there may be a jammage of game pieces.

[Jim Wilks]

Building on this and others:

This year is the 20th anniversary of the first video game (Pong)

1972 to the present is a bit more than 20 years!

[CNettles11]

1972 to the present is a bit more than 20 years!

You mean that 10 years ago doesn't mean early 90's? :(

[Sean Raia]

Im seeing an infared photoswitch, this has the capability to tell if something has interupted the beam in light of dark environments. Why would FIRST order so many photoswitches just to do the job of a ref and look for a robot passing a line? They wouldn't.

I could see a part of the field being obstucted from view.

[CNettles11]

I have just been informed that the game is called Bowled Over, appearantly there was a leak on andymark. More info to come.

Bowled over is the FTC game, not the FRC game.

[GaryVoshol]

... a bottleneck effect like in 2010.How about the bottlenecks in Aim High? Pokey-pokey stick anyone?

[Sean Raia]

Bowled over is the FTC game, not the FRC game.

Ahh I realized that just after i hit post. I stand firm on my obstructed view prediction.

[CNettles11]

Ahh I realized that just after i hit post. I stand firm on my obstructed view prediction.

4 pound bowling balls are just dense styrofoam (Think about AndyMark's battery packing foam) wrapped in a plastic shell. Those seem like the best reason for the heavy game pieces. I'd love to have a bowling game! I still think that the way that FRC is trying to tie into FTC, it could possibly involve balls being used to knock things over.

[thefro526]

I had mentioned this to AdamHeard yesterday. However, multiple items can be scored but have to eventually pass through the photosensors one at a time. It is very possible that this could be achieved with a bottleneck effect like in 2010. The only downside is there may be a jammage of game pieces.

I tried to find a picture of a 2006 low goal but was unable to. If memory serves me, the goal had 2-3 tunnel like structures for balls to go through, each with it's own photo sensor. Don't think I ever saw one jam up, even when 20-ish balls were dumped in at once.

2010's goals were never designed for multiple game pieces to pass through, or at least I don't think they were. It doesn't help that the memory foam made it really easy to jam two balls into the goal pretty tightly.

[EricH]

I tried to find a picture of a 2006 low goal but was unable to. If memory serves me, the goal had 2-3 tunnel like structures for balls to go through, each with it's own photo sensor. Don't think I ever saw one jam up, even when 20-ish balls were dumped in at once.

Single chute with a vision sensor of some form. No jamming, but you had to clear the holding pen before the balls got stuck on the sensor, otherwise they'd count again and again.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Single chute with a vision sensor of some form. No jamming, but you had to clear the holding pen before the balls got stuck on the sensor, otherwise they'd count again and again.

And that's a bad thing to keep counting scores? :rolleyes:

[thefro526]

And that's a bad thing to keep counting scores? :rolleyes:

Your opponent scored on you in 2006 (opposite of 2010). If you didn't clear the ball corral fast enough, the opponents score would keep going up.