Why do we care about the game hints?

[avanboekel]

I would like to start this post off by saying that each year, I follow the craziness of the game hints (who doesn't!?). Its a major part leading up to every FRC season.

Each year, we try to read between the lines to find out what FIRST is trying to tell us. We spend hours hitting F5, waiting for the next guy's 2 cents. But why? Nothing will ever be more than speculation (until kickoff, that is). For all of the ideas that we throw out there, maybe 1 in 20 is kind of relevant to what the game ends up being. And even if someone were to guess the game, what would they do? They can't start building their bot early. Its still only a guess. It would more than likely be a waste of time.

So for everyone out there, why do YOU (or don't you) follow the game hints? Is there something in these hints that I just don't get.

[EricH]

What else is there to do in December (besides finals, shoveling snow, and polish off prototypes while doing Fantasy FIRST)?

Besides, I think this xkcd will sum it up quite well: http://xkcd.com/356/ See the first frame.

[avanboekel]

What else is there to do in December (besides finals, shoveling snow, and polish off prototypes while doing Fantasy FIRST)?

Teaching rookies, build a kitbot, practice driving the kitbot, design a custom drivetrain. Just to name few.

[BJC]

It's all in good fun, try not to overthink it. I think EricH summed it up quite well with the xkcd comic.

[Justin Montois]

If you enjoy winter, you get excited about the first snowfall.

If you like FRC, you get excited when you start getting the first glimpse of the new season.

That's how I look at it anyway.

[Koko Ed]

To me game hints are like robot teasers. Much ado about nothing and I ignore both.

[Andrew Schreiber]

It gives me something to be a grumpy old man about.

[rsisk]

I love to watch the analysis progress. The individual brains acting in uncoordinated unison achieving more than any individual could.

[Ninja_Bait]

Sometimes you hope you can actually figure out the game...

[CalTran]

I'd say just the entertainment value. There's something oddly lovable about seeing hundreds of minds go off in every single directing (Including a few who always manage to link to a water game XD) and just see where it all goes. It's quite fun to partake in, because even with the wildest idea, if you explain it correctly people will see your view and maybe even validate it.

[GCentola]

I enjoy the game hints because it means we are close to a new season of FRC. I like following what others say for amusement, but I have never really taken them seriously. We will all find out the game at the same time, so figuring it out beforehand really doesn't do much (other than give the people who figured it out a sense of satisfaction). Some of the more serious discussions are interesting, and then many tohers are based off of over-analyzed words like "mull". I do think it would awesome to be on the GDC and know that the sanity of thousands of people rests in your hands, and then watch the discussions on crazy hints that you release!

I guess the short answer is: fun. But realistically, there isn't much a point.

And to the person who figured out mini-bots from "locomotion" last year...mad props. But we still all found out the same information at the same time :P

[thefro526]

Game Hints first and foremost are an excellent way to get new recruits excited for the upcoming season.

For some of us, The Game Hint is enough to give us a 'feel' for the new game. Maybe we can figure out that we're using an arm, or will need to climb a ramp, etc, and we'll design hypothetical mechanisms around them just to keep our skills sharp.

[Mr_I]

Sometimes you hope you can actually figure out the game...
Okay, I will say that last year some of us mananged to link the picture of "Little Eva" to WALL-E's girlfriend EVA, and then leap to the conclusion of a mini-bot. However, there were no real details about the game beyond that.

And in 2007, some people managed to perceive the idea of inner tubes from the red (or was it blue?) coloring around the diamond plate target number. Again, no real details about the game.

Has anyone anywhere EVER managed to figure anything out substantial from any of the clues?

[gyroscopeRaptor]

I do it for the comedy. It's funny seeing the non-serious ideas that get tossed around.

[Ninja_Bait]

Has anyone anywhere EVER managed to figure anything out substantial from any of the clues?

Even though it hasn't happened yet, it could happen. Such is the foolish way of the hopeful.

[thefro526]

Has anyone anywhere EVER managed to figure anything out substantial from any of the clues?

This is second hand information, but:

In 2002, apparently teams were given a BOM for one of the mobile goals, but no instructions as to how to build it as a hint. Teams who competed in 2001 were familiar to some extent with FRC style mobile goals. Some teams were able to build a relatively accurate mobile goal and began prototyping grabbing mechanisms around the parts.

[George A.]

Has anyone anywhere EVER managed to figure anything out substantial from any of the clues?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=543915&postcount=116

Mr Needel Was pretty close in 2007

[dag0620]

For me its just the fun of it.

Games hints most of the time are hard to interpret and honestly don't give you a leg up, but it helps get you in the spirit of things and excited, for whats coming up.

[O'Sancheski]

The best part about figuring out the game hints are after the game is released and played you get to look back at the crazy responses that people post. Then you get to see who was the closest or furthest away from the actual hint.

[Mr_I]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=543915&postcount=116

Mr Needel Was pretty close in 2007

Ah, good, someone linked to what the clue was!
Some time after kick-off (may have been a year later, for all my mind can remember), I was chatting with Woodie about this clue. He said that, at the time, they were tempted to release a series of clues, spaced out every few days:
- The number 5
- The number 4
- The number 3
- And to really throw everyone off, the number 7!

Can you imagine how many ways the brain trust of this audience would have gone with those numbers?:rolleyes:

[vic burg]

I follow them and participate because it's gives my brain a change to stretch and think about something different after/around finals time. Also, it gives me something FIRST related to do between FLL qualifiers (just emcee'd today, actually!) and kick-off for FRC. I think it also helps to keep up the momentum during the holidays time and well, FIRST is like a gigantor family to me so it brings us together just in time for the holidays! :)

[MichaelBick]

Personally, I care about them because I am just so exited for the season to start. Obiously there is the fun factor, but also the fact that it allows me to think about a completely theoretical game, and decide the best way to solve that problem. If we are right, or even close, then we are better prepared for season. If not, we may have an idea for another game, and are already in " season" mode.

[Siri]

Has anyone anywhere EVER managed to figure anything out substantial from any of the clues?Not as good as 2002, but in 2008 people managed to link the GPS coordinates with the tortoise and hare statue and figured out we were NASCAR-ishing. This actually provided some insight into drive train requirements. And of course, that year also have the December Gift, that really did get everyone thinking about infrared. We never got ours to work, but I wonder if the lead time didn't help some teams. I think FIRST really did do this on purpose in that case.

People also managed to figure out the extra gate in 2010, and someone determined there would be some unsafe-to-carry-robot-over obstacles dividing the field in 3. This could have provided drivetrain insight, though I don't know of anyone that pursued it (e.g. looking at the best ways to get over bumps or stairs). We also figured out soccer balls from the ball return segment. This has value in the 'how do I move soccer balls (over unsafe-to-carry-robot-over obstacles)?' angle.

[SenorZ]

It gives a rookie or second-year team a possibly misplaced focus on a generic game strategy.
We can then look up how other teams solved the problem, and figure how we could solve it using the tools at our disposal.

Then we pray we didn't waste a month.

[IndySam]

Because it's fun.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Because it's fun.

I think that's the only answer you'll need. It's fun. :]

[Robert Cawthon]

I think that's the only answer you'll need. It's fun. :]

Yes, it is fun. Its fun to watch the students expand their thinking and look outside the "normal" and watch their thoughts explode! Its also fun to watch the mentor's minds fry trying to out think the students.;)

[Peter Matteson]

Has anyone anywhere EVER managed to figure anything out substantial from any of the clues?

Yes, in 2004 we all knew we had to climb stairs because of the Stairway to Heaven lyrics.

1n 2005 the hint revealled that we were going to 3 vs 3 for the first time and the name of the game Triple Play.

In 2006 Jess Grady (nee Boucher) pretty much nailed the riddle figuring out the line: "A game object obsessed with a shovel's show" actually meant Just Shoot Me. Hinting at the fact we would be shooting a game object for the first time. This was also probably the most interesting hint we've seen, because it contained a lot of info and we actually had all the parts but didn't quite put it together.

In general the hints are fun to read and think about for a few minutes then just stop so you don't get brain lock.

[JaneYoung]

Game hint threads have provided a lot of giggles and downright belly laughs for me. I've loved those silly silly moments.

Jane

[Robert Cawthon]

Game hint threads have provided a lot of giggles and downright belly laughs for me. I've loved those silly silly moments.

Jane

Yeah, that, too.

[GaryVoshol]

Yes, in 2004 we all knew ...

1n 2005 the hint revealled ...

In 2006 ...


And last year someone inadvertently managed to post the game name, LogoMotion, in a typo of the Little Eva song Locomotion.

[Karibou]

We managed to make some decent connections in 2009. We got moon (lunar) from the Opah (moon fish), and linked part of the riddle to the Zamboni factory in California.

I like speculation, and therefore I like game hints.

[IndySam]

We managed to make some decent connections in 2009. We got moon (lunar) from the Opah (moon fish), and linked part of the riddle to the Zamboni factory in California.

I like speculation, and therefore I like game hints.

What genius did that?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=782419&postcount=12

[brunettegmp]

Yeah the game hints are only used to build anticipation...and we all know how stupid we are for thinking that we could guess the game (except for some rare occasions ^^^). But I agree...I wish I wasn't so caught up in the hints....but it's addicting!!!

[Andrew Lawrence]

Because the game hints care about you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGx4kuteVIA

'Cause Game hints...Love you! Robots...Love you! The 2012 game...I REALLY LOVE YOU! In the FRC blue!

[Joe Ross]

This is second hand information, but:

In 2002, apparently teams were given a BOM for one of the mobile goals, but no instructions as to how to build it as a hint. Teams who competed in 2001 were familiar to some extent with FRC style mobile goals. Some teams were able to build a relatively accurate mobile goal and began prototyping grabbing mechanisms around the parts.

The day before kickoff in 2002, Joe Johnson released a series of bets about the game, based on the hints and past games.


Dr. Joe's Tote Board


2 vs. 2 format : odds 1:1
Accepted by Evan "The Kidd" Doyle
One Goal : odds 1:1
Accepted by Stephen Rawls
Final Position(s) of Goal(s) Figures in Score : odds 2:1
Accepted by Ken Lueng
Torroids (e.g. inner tubes, inflatable floatie toys, hoola hoops, etc) are a game piece : odds 2:1
Accepted by Evan "The Kidd" Doyle
If balls, no smaller than 9 inch diameter : odds 2:1
Flat Floor (nothing larger than 1 inch to climb) : odds 3:1
Accepted by Justin Hirt
Robots Off Floor (e.g. hanging on goal) Figure in Scoring : odds 4:1
Accepted by Jordan A.
Goal has all three of the following attributes : odds 5:1
1) a double decker plywood structure on casters with the flanges and nipples separating the decks
2) 1" PVC conduits making up an outer fence of vertical pales
3) 3" PVC conduit making up a veritical column in center of the goal
Accepted by Dima


Of those, he was 50% correct (1, 3, 6, and 8 were correct). Number 8 was obviously the hardest, and he nailed the goal.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/Zonezeal.jpg

It seems unlikely that anyone used Joe's predictions to do prototyping in the day between when the predictions were released and kickoff. However, it is possible that other people figured out the same things, and kept them secret better then Joe did.

[inkspell4]

Last year we had both a FRC and VEX team at our school.
Mind that this was our teams rookie year.
So i was very excited to begin the build season. I took time to read every hint that i could get my hands on. I was then able to put togatther that there may be game pieces shaped like the logos elements and that me might have to stack them upright on towers. Mind you i got the stacking upward part wrong but i was close to what the game really was.

:] Keep the Speculation Going:]

[dlavery]

Having looked at this from the other side, here are a few fun things to think about.

The people on the Game Design Committee have almost as much fun thinking up the hint(s) each year as they do creating the game. Like everything else about FRC games, a good balance between multiple constraints must be reached. The hint can't be so obvious that it instantly reveals too much about the game. But it also cannot be so obscure that it truly can never be connected to the game.

Virtually every year someone successfully deciphers the hint, draws the correct conclusion, and posts it here on CD. So every year, the answer is given to the whole community. The problem is determining which post is right, and which of the several hundred wrong interpretations to ignore.

Once the game hint is revealed, the GDC does look in on these discussion threads to see how teams are interpreting the hint. Yes, there is more than just one evil cackling laugh that sneaks out as they read some of the posts. But in general, I remember discussions that go something like this:

"OK, it is high noon. Dead on at 12:00, so it is time to post the hint. Here goes..."

"It is 12:01 and . . . holy crap! There are already 3880 posts in the discussion thread about the hint!"

"These people take this stuff way too seriously! Don't they EVER sleep?"

"If they are going to put this much effort into decoding the hint, maybe next year we should think about it a little bit more? I feel sort of guilty about just using the fortune we got in the cookie at Chen Yang Li last night."

"Hey, nobody else could come up with something better. Besides, what is wrong with "you may be hungry soon, order takeout now" as a hint?"

"Well, to begin with, it still has some of Kate's kung pao chicken on it..."

"Quiet! I am trying to read the discussions!"

"Oh wow! They are getting really close! How are they able to figure this out in just the first four minutes?!??!?! I thought it would be a lot harder to break down the hint."

"I still think it is because of Kate's kung pao sauce."

"Shut up!"

"Besides, it is not like they will ever be able to make a connection between the fortune cookie phrase and the real ga..."

"You mean, like they just did?"

"No way!!! Ok, there is absolutely no logical way they could have figured that out. To do that, you would have had to know that the fortune cookie we found was printed in Avondale, New Mexico, by an Armenian refugee with psoriasis named Adbal that just missed his third payment on his truck loan. That would have to get connected to the last line of the second stanza of “Desperado” – but the Johnny Cash cover version with the alternative phrasing, not the original. But even that is only useful if you know that the English invented soccer by kicking the heads of dead Danish invaders and as a result, the Queen owns all the swans in England. And you really expect me to believe that they figured out how to put all of that together, and then knew that they had to divide the result by Perry Mason’s office phone number, to get the number of garstuckles that would be used in each match this year."

"Welcome to the age of the interwebthingys."

"Crap. What do we do now? "

"Let’s issue a second hint that . . . "

"No way we are doing a second hint! The first one already told them too much!"

"Look, it doesn’t matter! It is all taking care of itself! Yeah, so they figured out that we are using garstuckles this year. But that was 980 posts ago, and no one has gone back and realized that they were right."

"Huh? How in the world did they miss that??? They were right on target! How did they get diverted?"

"Andy Baker posted about the new Hoverboards from AndyMark, and they were off to the races."

"Hmmm. I wonder if you can eat kung pao chicken while riding a Hoverboard?"

"Shut up!"




-dave


.

[Ninja_Bait]

"Hmmm. I wonder if you can eat kung pao chicken while riding a Hoverboard?"

-dave

Well, that ends the water game speculation. Everyone knows hoverboards don't work on water. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fROq-ZxtvnU)

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Having looked at this from the other side, here are a few fun things to think about.

The people on the Game Design Committee have almost as much fun thinking up the hint(s) each year as they do creating the game. Like everything else about FRC games, a good balance between multiple constraints must be reached. The hint can't be so obvious that it instantly reveals too much about the game. But it also cannot be so obscure that it truly can never be connected to the game.

Virtually every year someone successfully deciphers the hint, draws the correct conclusion, and posts it here on CD. So every year, the answer is given to the whole community. The problem is determining which post is right, and which of the several hundred wrong interpretations to ignore.

Once the game hint is revealed, the GDC does look in on these discussion threads to see how teams are interpreting the hint. Yes, there is more than just one evil cackling laugh that sneaks out as they read some of the posts. But in general, I remember discussions that go something like this:

"OK, it is high noon. Dead on at 12:00, so it is time to post the hint. Here goes..."

"It is 12:01 and . . . holy crap! There are already 3880 posts in the discussion thread about the hint!"

"These people take this stuff way too seriously! Don't they EVER sleep?"

"If they are going to put this much effort into decoding the hint, maybe next year we should think about it a little bit more? I feel sort of guilty about just using the fortune we got in the cookie at Chen Yang Li last night."

"Hey, nobody else could come up with something better. Besides, what is wrong with "you may be hungry soon, order takeout now" as a hint?"

"Well, to begin with, it still has some of Kate's kung pao chicken on it..."

"Quiet! I am trying to read the discussions!"

"Oh wow! They are getting really close! How are they able to figure this out in just the first four minutes?!??!?! I thought it would be a lot harder to break down the hint."

"I still think it is because of Kate's kung pao sauce."

"Shut up!"

"Besides, it is not like they will ever be able to make a connection between the fortune cookie phrase and the real ga..."

"You mean, like they just did?"

"No way!!! Ok, there is absolutely no logical way they could have figured that out. To do that, you would have had to know that the fortune cookie we found was printed in Avondale, New Mexico, by an Armenian refugee with psoriasis named Adbal that just missed his third payment on his truck loan. That would have to get connected to the last line of the second stanza of “Desperado” – but the Johnny Cash cover version with the alternative phrasing, not the original. But even that is only useful if you know that the English invented soccer by kicking the heads of dead Danish invaders and as a result, the Queen owns all the swans in England. And you really expect me to believe that they figured out how to put all of that together, and then knew that they had to divide the result by Perry Mason’s office phone number, to get the number of garstuckles that would be used in each match this year."

"Welcome to the age of the interwebthingys."

"Crap. What do we do now? "

"Let’s issue a second hint that . . . "

"No way we are doing a second hint! The first one already told them too much!"

"Look, it doesn’t matter! It is all taking care of itself! Yeah, so they figured out that we are using garstuckles this year. But that was 980 posts ago, and no one has gone back and realized that they were right."

"Huh? How in the world did they miss that??? They were right on target! How did they get diverted?"

"Andy Baker posted about the new Hoverboards from AndyMark, and they were off to the races."

"Hmmm. I wonder if you can eat kung pao chicken while riding a Hoverboard?"

"Shut up!"




-dave


.

:ahh: This post has to have a hint in it somewhere :ahh:

[gyroscopeRaptor]

Dave isn't on the GDC anymore.

This won't stop people from deciphering the message for any possible hints.

[buildmaster5000]

Having looked at this from the other side, here are a few fun things to think about.

The people on the Game Design Committee have almost as much fun thinking up the hint(s) each year as they do creating the game. Like everything else about FRC games, a good balance between multiple constraints must be reached. The hint can't be so obvious that it instantly reveals too much about the game. But it also cannot be so obscure that it truly can never be connected to the game.

Virtually every year someone successfully deciphers the hint, draws the correct conclusion, and posts it here on CD. So every year, the answer is given to the whole community. The problem is determining which post is right, and which of the several hundred wrong interpretations to ignore.

Once the game hint is revealed, the GDC does look in on these discussion threads to see how teams are interpreting the hint. Yes, there is more than just one evil cackling laugh that sneaks out as they read some of the posts. But in general, I remember discussions that go something like this:

<snip>

Wait a minute....Since Dave is no longer on the GDC, why haven't we kidnapped him to extract information about what does go on in those closed door GDC meetings..... TELL US MORE DAVE!!! TELL US MORE!!!

On a serous note, if Dave is now willing to share what goes on in the GDC meetings, will he be so kind as to tell us if he is:
1. Doing the animation this year
2. If not, who owns the rights to the various robots in the animation (I want to see the plowbot gag continue as much as the next guy)

[Wayne TenBrink]

Game hints are kind of like the old "Duck and Cover" civil defense drills during the cold war. Neither one affects your ultimate fate, and both keep you busy until the big moment arrives.

[mdiradoorian]

@Ninja_Bait

That is true and I have been saying that this years game will not been a water, GDC in my opinion won't create one.

[RedLeader342]

where can i find the hints btw..

[O'Sancheski]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98583&highlight=2012+game+hint+%231