Mentor - Student Interactions Online

[MechEng83]

I'd like to post a question to the general CD community.

Recently, one of our parent/mentors sent me an online article from the New York Times talking about school district policies on social media.

Here's an excerpt from that email:

FYI. We need a policy for the robotics team. I'm not seeing anything inappropriate on Facebook. Awareness will ensure nothing develops.

School districts across the country are imposing strict new guidelines that ban private conversations between teachers and their students on cellphones and online platforms. http://nyti.ms/tAHS39


What are your thoughts about this? I have very strong opinions on the matter, but I wanted to see what you all had to say about it.

Thanks!

[Tom Line]

Facebook, cellphones, or any other form of social media are not allowed at robotics competitions or practices.

Other than than, it's up to the parents to govern it. What the kids do on their free time outside robotics doesn't fall under the purview of robotics, unless it directly is about robotics (i.e., they call a mentor a name, etc.)

Disallowing private conversation seems pretty silly. You'd be creating an un-enforceable rule just to try to remove some liability from the team. Private conversations are also necessary sometimes. Why try to extend robotics beyond what it's meant to be?

[Cuog]

I will never get bans like this. First its already banned to have those sorts of relationships with students, so I'm not sure what yet another ban is going to actually accomplish. Secondly it seems to assume that every teacher is a convenient means of communication away from "intimate relationships" with their students.

It's certainly a problem to take seriously, and I can only imagine how scary the whole idea must be for parents, that someone you trust to help your kids grow and learn is taking such horrible advantage of them. I just can't see how the current means of prevention do anything more than make the people in charge feel better that they're at least doing something.

[ebarker]

make the people in charge feel better that they're at least doing something.

“The medicine can be worse than the disease”

Risk management by a school system is a legitimate issue but the implementation of risk management carries its own risks.
Recently a book was written called NurtureShock. It was written by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman. The central premise of this book is that many of modern society’s strategies for nurturing children are
in fact backfiring – because key twists in the science have been overlooked.

from the book "Nurtureshock" - (http://www.nurtureshock.com/)

"Teens need opportunities to take good risks. They need more exposure to other adults, and even kids of other ages—and less exposure to teens exactly their age. They need part of their life to feel real, not just a dress rehearsal for college. They will mature more quickly if these elements are in their life."

One of the big revelations to me personally is how students have gone backward in their development relative to a generation ago. They do not know how to deal with adults, they are losing their creativity, they are not as capable of independent thought and problem solving.

These ‘risk managers’ are creating new societal risks in advancing the pool of low performing students.

Teens ( and younger and older ) people need to understand inappropriate behavior. There are ways to deal with inappropriate behavior.

There are a lot of things that affect student’s academic performance. Should we separate the sexes so there is no risk of daydreaming about the hot guy or pretty girl across the room ?

How about eliminating sports so that there can be no injury. If robotics teams had injuries at the rate sports injuries occurred there would not be a robotics team in the country.

What if a teen in crisis needs to talk to a trusted teacher, mentor, or other adult ? Slam the door and say “get lost”. Refer them to a non-responsive faceless non-trusted government agency that is no good at dealing with a crisis, ( yet another government answer to everything - sheesh - don’t even get me started )

The primary purpose of the policy is to protect the school system from liability, and on a good day hopefully manages some of the risk for the student.

The student is still at risk from others, still not necessarily capable of handling the risk themselves, and society as a whole is no better and probably worse off.

Going off on a different 'risk' tangent.

NurtureShock says "Teens need opportunities to take good risks". Instead of teens taking a negative risk in the backseat of a car, they can join a robotics team and learn how to take positive and safer risks, like a risky game strategy, a risky robot design, how to make a business decision about their team, etc. Learning how to fail, and succeed here is preferable to doing it as an employee or adult head of household.

A society that has eliminated all risks will also eliminate all chance of success and maintaining a leadership position in the world. You only have to look to the other side of the world where they tried to eliminate the risk of sin by implementing the burka. They are stuck in the stone age.

I am all for eliminating risks where it can be done intelligently. But fire walling off the population by age and gender isn't going to get it done.

Preventing adult / student interaction in a non-classroom environment is backward thinking and doesn't reflect how students really learn.

Students today just do not get enough interaction with responsible adults. When I grew up I interacted with a lot of adults. Some were great, most were good, and a couple of them creeped me out, but I knew how to run away and take care of myself.

An acquaintance of mine, Vietnam era veteran Clebe Mcclary (http://www.clebemcclary.com/bio.html) once told me when he was a kid he had a 'drug' problem. His dad 'drug' him to work, drug him to church, drug him to school, drug him fishing, and paraphasing - 'drug him to a lot of rich experiences that allowed him to develop into a man' -

I had the same 'drug' problem. It worked out for me and I personally think a lot of other kids could use a nice dose of appropriate and healthy adult interaction.

Ed

[DonRotolo]

Hmmm. Why not ban the behavior that is causing problems - inappropriate contact - rather than banning the medium?

Hey, waitaminnit: Inappropriate contact IS already banned... :rolleyes:

[Koko Ed]

I try to remind our kids to be mindful of what you post online especially when it comes to FIRST (one of our students had a meltdown on Facebook and put a very angry status update about another team. I begged her to take it down and had a private message conversation about it so she could understand why it wasn't a good thing to do and not everyone on that team was a bad person). Too many people have worked too long and too hard to have the selfish actions of one person derail our teams reputation because they want to vent online.

[ebarker]

So there you go. Don says in one simple sentence all that needed to be said. I ramble on forever and forever......................

[Nemo]

The main result of this type of policy overkill is to hinder people who have common sense and integrity. As Don said, rules already exist to disallow inappropriate interactions between students and teachers. A strict ban is pointless, because any district can fire a teacher for unprofessional conduct given that it has administrators who are prepared to do their job. All of the social media shenanigans described in the article stand out as quite obviously unprofessional.

At different times I use email, phone, text messaging, and Twitter to coordinate various logistical aspects of the team. A smart school policy allows this type of positive communication to take place. I'm glad I work in a district where the administrators have some common sense about this stuff. Instead of a strict ban on social media use, we have had open discussions in faculty meetings about what types of communications are appropriate. It is something to be mindful of, to be sure.

[ebarker]

The amount of work that a team can get done via texting is simply amazing. Team news goes via email and a private facebook group.

[JohnSchneider]

Actually, I think having to converse with both mentors and sponsors, in a social media medium, teaches the students how to be respectful and cautious in what they say.

[the man]

I feel that all the students are young adults and should be treated as such. I fail to see how any interactions on Facebook or cellphones could negatively affect students. I feel that school districts are afraid of this new form of media interaction. Not to mention the scare the media puts on very selective events. I am good friends with all my mentors I have no problem talking to them online or in person. I dont see any real problem.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Interesting twist now that many schools require students to have Facebook accounts and use such for posting school work, coordinating team research and generating homework assignments.
For WildStang, we maintain our own forum but have private sections for the subteams where mentors and students can interact in 'public'. i.e. the forums that are closed to non-WildStang members are open to all adults, parents, and teachers. Private interactions ( face to face or electronically) between student and adult are not allowed.

[Phyrxes]

Our school district implemented a ban on social media interaction with current students by faculty and staff, and as such our team is limited in communication methods.

Right now we distribute most team information by a Google group e-mail list that both our parents and students are subscribed to. Any text, twitter, or Facebook interaction is student organized and executed.

It is a pain since most of our students do not check their e-mail regularly unless they have a smartphone that it is sent to.

[JamesCH95]

I unfreinded all of the students I had friended on Facebook after learning that at least one of our sponsoring school's policy forbids teachers and staff being facebook friends with students. I feel that, for better or worse, I should respect the policy of any schools that are involved with our team.

[Jon236]

Interesting twist now that many schools require students to have Facebook accounts and use such for posting school work, coordinating team research and generating homework assignments.
For WildStang, we maintain our own forum but have private sections for the subteams where mentors and students can interact in 'public'. i.e. the forums that are closed to non-WildStang members are open to all adults, parents, and teachers. Private interactions ( face to face or electronically) between student and adult are not allowed.

By simply making electronic communication non-private (by using e-lists, say to the Programming Team), the issues of inappropriate conversations go away. In Scouts, adults need to have another scout present. The same should apply to use of social media. This simply makes sense. Don't ban communication; just let the sun shine in!

[Taylor]

I have a personal policy of not being 'friends' with any current 1529 students. However, I would not be against a FRC1529 page, moderated by team leaders, that students and others could use. That could allow access between adults and students without having 'friend' status. I've seen several teams use this ability well.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Jon,
Our policy actually is derived from scouting policy since several of us are former scout leaders and the lead teacher is an Eagle Scout. We adhere to the two adult, two student rule for the team and will close down if anyone needs to leave that would violate this minimum. We, of course, cannot transport students in our private vehicles, even with parent permission, for insurance rules in our district.

[JesseK]

Interesting twist now that many schools require students to have Facebook accounts and use such for posting school work, coordinating team research and generating homework assignments.

This is awful news Al. Facebook isn't just notorious for tracking every movement on the web, but those who mine Facebook's data could develop some pretty nasty algorithms that could get them a denied loan later:
If it's free on the internet then you're not the customer; rather, you're the product (http://www.betabeat.com/2011/12/13/as-banks-start-nosing-around-facebook-and-twitter-the-wrong-friends-might-just-sink-your-credit/)

I do use Facebook, randomly, though I have some pretty strict privacy settings. This county is so politically charged my personal policies are 'if I don't know your parents, then we can't be friends on Facebook until after you graduate'. Seems to work OK so far.

[Chris is me]

I unfreinded all of the students I had friended on Facebook after learning that at least one of our sponsoring school's policy forbids teachers and staff being facebook friends with students. I feel that, for better or worse, I should respect the policy of any schools that are involved with our team.

Luckily, I'm not a teacher.

Without Facebook, our team would NOT be able to do iterative design. We don't use Facebook to talk about our private lives, we use it for work. There's a difference. Not all technology is evil.

[pfreivald]

Well, Facebook is evil, but regardless, 1551 has a FB page that we use to communicate with parents and students. All communication is public and documented.

I don't allow students to call my cell phone, but they can text me -- this keeps a record of all student contact, and if anything inappropriate gets sent to me I can immediately report it to parents, admins, etc.

...not that this has ever happened, because my kids know that it would if they did, so they don't.

[JamesBrown]

It is interesting to see the diferent opinions on the topic. It is also interesting that a lot of the people who seem to be against a ban are older mentors. Not sure of the cause or significance but it is worth noting.

To throw in my $.02 I never add active students on Facebook, also my privacy settings are extremely strict. I made this decision based on what my friends and family who are teachers or otherwise work with students that age have done, I have had these settings since back when I was a camp counselor. Quite frankly students have no need to view my facebook profile, (I keep my profile work appropriate based on what I learned at RPI). Also students have no need to message me on Facebook and I have no need to message them that way. I regularly give students and their parents(on my team and others that need software and electrical help) my business card that includes my email and cell phone.

I agree with Don and others that banning inappropriate contact is the ideal, however that just isn't practical. I think it is very important to set out guidelines for what you can and can't talk about, i.e. when I was a counselor it was always considered inappropriate to discuss what happened over the weekend and/or any interaction between counselors that happens outside of camp. I do my best to keep the same policy with robotics students. While I may tell them that I went home to visit family or something simmilar I never share details. I will happily be friends with students once they are in college but it is important not to blur the line when they are in HS, especially since I am only 4 or 5 years older than the oldest students. These types of interactions are considered by many to be inappropriate but are for the most part harmless often happen with good intentions and can easily be prevented by a good policy with out bans. The real issue comes with more severe in appropriate interactions.

I think it is important to use any and all defenses to prevent truely inappropriate interactions and/or anything that could be interpreted in that way. I agree with Al that the scouting policy covers the bases and does it well. While I hated the policy as a scout (I can't even tell you how many times my dad and I had to sit around after meetings and events when I was SPL to wait for parents as not to break the 2 to 2 rule) it just makes sense, I know that it is easy to say well I know that person nothing is going to happen honestly you never really know the person 100% all the time when abuse is exposed people come out saying they never expected it. It is way easier to be safe than sorry.

As for some tips on how you can use social media appropriately, create team facebook and twitter accounts that can be accessed by multiple team leaders (students and or mentors). Keep all content appropriate and professional, ensure that students understand that as the public sees it anything on that account is the official opinion of the team. This will also allow the team to update members via social media without 1-1 interaction between leaders and students. Phones calls are more accepted by parents these days as they are more familiar. I am not against texting as it is a valuable tool but I think they should only be sent out as blasts, the same message goes to every one and only at appropriate times. If a school department has a strict phone policy ask to have a voice mail box set up for the team and have the messages forward to mentors, that way there is no direct contact but students can still quickly contact mentors.

[JamesBrown]

Luckily, I'm not a teacher.

Without Facebook, our team would NOT be able to do iterative design. We don't use Facebook to talk about our private lives, we use it for work. There's a difference. Not all technology is evil.

Do you find it necessary to friend the students to get this done? Could the same be achieved through a facebook group?

[thefro526]

Do you find it necessary to friend the students to get this done? Could the same be achieved through a facebook group?

Considering that Picone and I chat a few times a week, it's much easier to share information and get feedback if you're friends with one another. We also have an EWCP Facebook group that we use for collaboration, but it can get a bit cluttered when you're looking for a response from specific person.

Is it necessary to friend someone? Probably not, though it does make communicating a bit easier.

Also, on the subject of Facebook, depending on how savvy you are with the privacy settings you can make things as public or private as you want. If you were to create a group in your friends list called 'robotics students', 'work friends', 'family', etc you can target and block specific information with a few extra clicks.

[Chris is me]

Do you find it necessary to friend the students to get this done? Could the same be achieved through a facebook group?

We use a Facebook group, but I am also friends with my team's student leader and talk to him extensively about design. I don't seek students out on Facebook, but I won't reject a request - just put them on a limited profile and it's fine.

Just last night he and I collaborated on an iteration of Shaker's drivetrain. If we didn't have Facebook, what other kind of real time, text and image based communication platform could we have used to share CAD renders and ideas? Facebook might be a tool for some people to talk extensively about their personal lives, and I certainly make Facebook statuses about how much studying I have to do or how non-exciting it is to be in Wisconsin, but I really don't think THOSE details affect my relationship with students.

I keep anything that would negatively affect my relationship with a student off my public Facebook profile. Any information I wish to share that's less than appropriate for basically anyone to see, I do on Google Plus, which is an 18+ service which I do not add students to.

People are paranoid. Just because I have a Facebook profile doesn't mean I'm about to advocate to students that they all make the same life choices as me. And even if I did, come on, my students are smarter than to blindly follow the habits of a 19 year old college student.

[jwfoss]

Nearly all of team 2168s team communication takes place via our group on Facebook. It allows the students to quickly collaborate on awards, presentations, and share graphics. We found that our students do not respond to email, and Facebook just works. I am not friends with hardly any of our current students online, however I do use Facebook to check up on some of our graduates.

Being an employeed engineer (working for a government contractor) has me monitoring my online information anyways, so I personally am not concerned if a student or company looks at my profile.

[Akash Rastogi]

It is a little harder for those of us who transitioned from being students on teams (we are all friends with students on other teams) to being mentors.

Our team has a separate facebook group to which students can be added, along with a private team forum, and another facebook group for mentors only. There is also a google group we use because it seems a bit more professional. 3929 students don't add mentors on facebook or vice versa. As for phone calls and texts - students have our numbers but calling and texting is reserved for emergencies or when either the mentor or student is not at a computer and urgently needs information (about meeting time/location/transportation). We also make sure numbers are known so that students can call us when we travel to competitions for any emergencies.

We adhere to rules similar to what Al posted as well as all things listed here http://www.atomicrobotics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/4HVolEnrolForm.pdf
We also have background checks done on all mentors.

Its a very touchy subject, so many people have different views.

[Peter Matteson]

I have a personal policy of not being 'friends' with any current 1529 students. However, I would not be against a FRC1529 page, moderated by team leaders, that students and others could use. That could allow access between adults and students without having 'friend' status. I've seen several teams use this ability well.

I have the same policy. I will not "friend" students until they graduate.

We do have team pages and alumni pages all of us can see but as mentioned those are public so there is not concern about it.

Also when it comes to e-mails we generally have 3 lists we use when sending stuff: All team members, Mentors and student leaders, Mentors only.

[JamesCH95]

Luckily, I'm not a teacher.

Without Facebook, our team would NOT be able to do iterative design. We don't use Facebook to talk about our private lives, we use it for work. There's a difference. Not all technology is evil.

Let me explain further. It is simply against policy at some of the schools that we're involved with for students and school employees to have social media interactions with students. I do not want my team, or its students/coaches, to put a high school in a difficult position. I don't think it would take long for funding to get cut, or students to be barred from participating in robotics, if we were found to be in violation of school policy. Actually, to the best of my knowledge, it is NH state policy that forbids this.

The state and the school districts have their own reasons for this policy, however paranoid they may be. I do not friend students because I will not permit something as trivial as Facebook or social media interactions to jeopardize our team because of the school's policy. I may not like the policy, I may not agree with the policy, but I'm not going to thumb my nose at the school because I'm not a teacher and my status as 'volunteer' might let me slip through some loophole in the policy.

Email groups, particularly google groups where you can share google docs and calendars are very effective for design collaboration and general team communications. I used google groups for many design projects in college and it is what we currently use for our team while our web team sets up SVN on our web server.

[Jon Stratis]

It seems to me that electronic interactions between students and mentors (like e-mail and facebook) can be beneficial to students in ways other than working on the robot. Most students graduate high school (and some even college) without really knowing how to communicate effectively and appropriately in a work environment. Having the experience of communicating with their mentors can help them develop these skills! further, it can help them to see what information, pictures, and such are appropriate (from a professional perspective) to have on Facebook - especially since prospective employers tend to look at these things. Keeping in touch with former students can also be great for both parties - you can help them get a job or internship, and you'll get an employee you know and can work with easily.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I have the same policy. I will not "friend" students until they graduate.

We do have team pages and alumni pages all of us can see but as mentioned those are public so there is not concern about it.

Also when it comes to e-mails we generally have 3 lists we use when sending stuff: All team members, Mentors and student leaders, Mentors only.

I will not seek out students* as friends on FB. I will also not deny the request for 90% of students. I put them on a list called 'FRC High School Students' where they are able to only see what I choose for them to see. It also avoids the issue of having to determine if a person requesting is a current HS student on a team I don't know. I used to go through the whole process of trying to find whether they were a student or what. It also avoids the awkward conversation of "why didn't you accept my friend request?" wherein I end up having to explain why (because somehow there is a huge difference between me at 18 and them at 17 a couple years ago).




* The exception to this is students in EWCP like Nick Lawrence.

[pfreivald]

I would like to be clear that in order to be my friend on Facebook, you must *both* have a high school diploma *and* have survived your 18th birthday, *or* be at least twenty-one years old. No current students, period!

Our FBing is done via a group, not private friending.

[MechEng83]

Thanks, everyone for your replies. It seems there's not a real concensus, even within the FIRST community about what rules should exist.

I asked our school's administrator and there isn't currently a specific policy about online interactions. He suggested we follow our general policy on mentor-student interactions, since that's worked for us so far.

I'm really glad we're not placed under an overly restrictive policy. I've used Facebook and text messages to remind students of upcoming events. I sometimes chat with specific students about what they specifically need to do to fulfill their team role. Really I don't see how this differs from sending an email (which most of our students don't check regularly) making a phone call (which most students don't answer) or having an in-person conversation (which is difficult if the student doesn't show up on a particular day) except that I'm able to reach them effectively.

I don't actively seek out current students as facebook friends, but I haven't denied a request either. I do set students to a restricted group to limit their access to my information. I view facebook and other social media as tools. The ability to use tools is what makes us an advanced society. FIRST is about promoting technology and inspiring students. If I can use this technology to inspire students, then I think it's a wholly appropriate and legitimate use.

[ebarker]

I don't actively seek out current students as facebook friends, but I haven't denied a request either. I do set students to a restricted group to limit their access to my information. I view facebook and other social media as tools. The ability to use tools is what makes us an advanced society. FIRST is about promoting technology and inspiring students. If I can use this technology to inspire students, then I think it's a wholly appropriate and legitimate use.

Prior to email/facebook/phone/text contact I have a conversation with the student's parents. Once all that is settled then things can proceed. Until then the students only recourse is to be all meetings.

[Phyrxes]

Another thing you may wish to consider is drafting and adopting an "acceptable use policy." Out students agree to the county's policy as part of the school districts code of behavior so ours expands on that policy instead of writing one completely from scratch.

The policy is then included in the packet of information that each parent receives when their child joins.