How do I get the encrypted competition manual?

[cbeavers6790]

I was wondering where I could find this so I dont have to deal with trying to download the manual as soon as the code is released. Any ideas? I have heard that this exists but I have never actually seen it.

[avanboekel]

I don't think that they will release it until kickoff this year. According to USFIRST.org (http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/competition-manual-and-related-documents), "2012 Game Manual to be released at Kickoff, January 7, 2012".

[akoscielski3]

It will be here, but it has not been released yet. It is usually released a few days before kick-off.

http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/competition-manual-and-related-documents

[cbeavers6790]

cool, I will just have to keep an eye out, It is so much easier if I dont have to wait.

[akoscielski3]

cool, I will just have to keep an eye out, It is so much easier if I dont have to wait.

Only if you remember the password ;) lol i almost forgot it last year.

Bill's Blog will have link to it when it comes out too. :P

[cbeavers6790]

well the encrypted still only unlocks with the password given out at the end of kickoff you dont need a password to download the encrypted version do you?

[Derschatten]

Also this year they will have a new format of the manual you can check out the beta here: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/competition-manual-and-related-documents-beta-test

[akoscielski3]

well the encrypted still only unlocks with the password given out at the end of kickoff you dont need a password to download the encrypted version do you?

No you don't. Last year they put up a Manual that had no password after kick-off, so you didnt have to type in the password everytime you go looking for a rule :P

[thefro526]

Only if you remember the password ;) lol i almost forgot it last year.



If you're quick, taking a picture is a good way to save it.

Also, I highly recommend downloading the encrypted manual before kick-off. FIRST's site usually gets a little overloaded in the first few hours after kick-off, making the manual download a bit of a pain.

[Andrew Lawrence]

To add on to the question: How can I get the exact 2012 manual before kickoff? And yes, I mean the whole manual, not the encrypted one... ;)

[PAR_WIG1350]

To add on to the question: How can I get the exact 2012 manual before kickoff? And yes, I mean the whole manual, not the encrypted one... ;)

Figure out the encryption key, then decrypt the encrypted manual. Yes, it is extremly hard to do, it is also cheating, asumming you acctually read/look at it before the encryption key is released.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Figure out the encryption key, then decrypt the encrypted manual. Yes, it is extremly hard to do, it is also cheating, asumming you acctually read/look at it before the encryption key is released.

Why do you say it's cheating?
What rule has been broken?

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't do it. I love surprises on FIRSTmas

[Chris is me]

Why do you say it's cheating?
What rule has been broken?

Well, considering you can't read the rules, I'd say it's hard to know for certain. ;)

[Andrew Lawrence]

Well, considering you can't read the rules, I'd say it's hard to know for certain. ;)

I see what you did there!

[Billfred]

To add on to the question: How can I get the exact 2012 manual before kickoff? And yes, I mean the whole manual, not the encrypted one... ;)

Figure out the encryption key, then decrypt the encrypted manual. Yes, it is extremly hard to do, it is also cheating, asumming you acctually read/look at it before the encryption key is released.

Why do you say it's cheating?
What rule has been broken?

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't do it. I love surprises on FIRSTmas

Well, considering you can't read the rules, I'd say it's hard to know for certain. ;)

While I can tell the light nature of this discussion, it does contravene the ChiefDelphi forum rules:

By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, racist, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws or school rules. THIS INCLUDES THE DISCUSSION OF WAREZ, FILE-SHARING PROGRAMS, CRACKING, AND ANY OTHER WAY OF STEALING SOFTWARE OR ANY OTHER COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL.

Now that we've hopefully put the brakes on that: Last year I pre-loaded the encrypted manual onto iBooks on my iPad. When the key was released, I typed it into a note and copied it using the iOS system copy-and-paste feature. I then could paste the key into each of the documents without having to type it fifty-dozen times.

[Tetraman]

The first password I'm going to attempt is "5892rockwellFIRSTparts" as that's the number of total quantity from game hint 1.

It always helps to have the files beforehand. I remember one year I couldn't get the manuals on game day until about 6 hours after it was released. Frustrating. It's like trying to register for college classes at 6 in the morning.

[Garrett.d.w]

Why do you say it's cheating?
What rule has been broken?

The opening paragraphs of the rules (don't actually have the rulebook so no quote, sorry) state that the build season is six weeks. By opening the rulebook beforehand you have extended the amount of time that you have to work on your robot. Even if you don't build anything, you have thought about the game and how to solve the challenge.

[Gray Adams]

The opening paragraphs of the rules (don't actually have the rulebook so no quote, sorry) state that the build season is six weeks. By opening the rulebook beforehand you have extended the amount of time that you have to work on your robot. Even if you don't build anything, you have thought about the game and how to solve the challenge.

If you're going to argue that, then you should have the entirety of January 7th to look at the manual as part of the 6 weeks.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

The opening paragraphs of the rules (don't actually have the rulebook so no quote, sorry) state that the build season is six weeks. By opening the rulebook beforehand you have extended the amount of time that you have to work on your robot. Even if you don't build anything, you have thought about the game and how to solve the challenge.

I commend you for reading the rules.

However, by your own statement, you have opened the rulebook beforehand and thus extended the six weeks (even if it's only a portion of the rulebook).

Also, where does it say that the six weeks starts when you get the rulebook? (I personally have counted the time from kickoff to shipdate)

I just have never seen a rule that prohibits attempts at figuring out the encryption key. Again, I'd not do so, but thats because I WANT to be surprised on FIRSTmas (err...kickoff).

[Trent B]

Getting off the complete tangent of cracking which we already shouldn't be on.

Last year I helped host a manual that was downloaded a couple thousand times. I may consider doing that again but I need to decide if I want to spend the money hosting it because my host has changed from one with a flat fee for a flat amount of services to a one with a dynamic fee based on use (pay for everything basically).

[Chris is me]

Getting off the complete tangent of cracking which we already shouldn't be on.

Last year I helped host a manual that was downloaded a couple thousand times. I may consider doing that again but I need to decide if I want to spend the money hosting it because my host has changed from one with a flat fee for a flat amount of services to a one with a dynamic fee based on use (pay for everything basically).

I'll probably just put it on Dropbox with a public link.

[Trent B]

I'll probably just put it on Dropbox with a public link.

Apparently the bandwidth limit is 10GB/day which is higher than I expected. I may do the same granted our bandwidth hit on kickoff was even higher than that.

[Clinton Bolinger]

FIRST should really torrent the manual files on the day of Kickoff, I think enough people would seed to take care of any server crashing issues.

-Clinton-

[Steven Donow]

FIRST should really torrent the manual files on the day of Kickoff, I think enough people would seed to take care of any server crashing issues.

-Clinton-

While that is probably a good idea, Torrents have such a bad reputation that it'd be nearly impossible to download them on a school's network, as apposed to a simple PDF

[flameout]

If you have any Linux people on your team, Evince (the standard GNOME document viewer) (and probably others... maybe KDE's one?) can print directly to PDF, thereby allowing you to save a decrypted copy of an encrypted PDF (you need the password, of course, and it increases the file size).

I'm not familiar with software for Windows that can do this, other than Adobe's official PDF creation software. It shouldn't be too hard to find something, though.

Then you can distribute the new PDF among your team (and other teams), removing the need for any form of internet access.

[PAR_WIG1350]

While I can tell the light nature of this discussion, it does contravene the ChiefDelphi forum rules:


I thought we were on the safer side of a grey area. We never mentioned how one would "figure out" the encryption key, we were simply discussing the ethical implications of the READING the manual before it is release. At least that is where the conversation started.

[Andrew Lawrence]

^What Par_Wig said.

[plnyyanks]

Getting off the complete tangent of cracking which we already shouldn't be on.

Last year I helped host a manual that was downloaded a couple thousand times. I may consider doing that again but I need to decide if I want to spend the money hosting it because my host has changed from one with a flat fee for a flat amount of services to a one with a dynamic fee based on use (pay for everything basically).

I can host game documents on our team website, like I did last year, too.

[GaryVoshol]

Part of the problem with teams hosting game documents is that they don't always get updated in a timely manner when the GDC issues a revision. We found that last year, especially considering several major changes that came out regarding the minibots. But every year it's something.

[ttldomination]

I'll probably just put it on Dropbox with a public link.

+1. I plan on doing this for my team.


Apparently the bandwidth limit is 10GB/day which is higher than I expected. I may do the same granted our bandwidth hit on kickoff was even higher than that.

I suppose if a group of people on CD upload and then publicly post their links, then we can get a nice, safe network to download things.

- Sunny G.

[Katie_UPS]

Part of the problem with teams hosting game documents is that they don't always get updated in a timely manner when the GDC issues a revision. We found that last year, especially considering several major changes that came out regarding the minibots. But every year it's something.

I think the idea is that it is hosted on a team's website only for the initial manual, when FIRST's servers can't handle the traffic. Post that period, teams should not have a problem accessing updates.

[Billfred]

If you have any Linux people on your team, Evince (the standard GNOME document viewer) (and probably others... maybe KDE's one?) can print directly to PDF, thereby allowing you to save a decrypted copy of an encrypted PDF (you need the password, of course, and it increases the file size).

I haven't tested this on an encrypted file, but Mac OS X's native print dialog allows saving the print output as a PDF as well. (And depending on your team makeup, there may be more Mac people than Linux people on your team.)

Edit: See msimon785's post below. Nevermind. :)

[msimon785]

I haven't tested this on an encrypted file, but Mac OS X's native print dialog allows saving the print output as a PDF as well. (And depending on your team makeup, there may be more Mac people than Linux people on your team.)

I just tried it on the encrypted 2011 manual. It does not allow you to print an encrypted pdf to another pdf.

[IndySam]

Remember you are dealing with copyrighted material, why hosting the manual won't necessarily violate the terms of use I'm sure creating a torrent would.

It's not a bad idea to have teams host the manual the first week but if you do, please commit to removing it after the first update.

[Zoughtbaj]

Just to try to help those looking for less headaches on kickoff and after...

1. I highly recommend at least one person on your team bring a laptop and write down the password on a note or word or something. very useful, especially for copy paste-ing.

2. Google Sites or Google Docs would be a good free way to host the document. At the very least, you could host it for your team that way.

[Chris is me]

Remember you are dealing with copyrighted material, why hosting the manual won't necessarily violate the terms of use I'm sure creating a torrent would.

There's zero legal distinction between the two methods. A torrent is just another way to share a document.

[Gray Adams]

Remember you are dealing with copyrighted material, why hosting the manual won't necessarily violate the terms of use I'm sure creating a torrent would.

It's not a bad idea to have teams host the manual the first week but if you do, please commit to removing it after the first update.

Whether or not anyone but FIRST legally can distribute it without their permission is up for debate, I fail to see how sharing it through torrents is any different than hosting it on a server for direct download.

EDIT
I just tried it on the encrypted 2011 manual. It does not allow you to print an encrypted pdf to another pdf.If you have Acrobat, it takes about 2 clicks to remove the security. (http://blogs.adobe.com/acrobatforlifesciences/2010/04/removing_security_from_pdfs_in/)

[Trent B]

Remember you are dealing with copyrighted material, why hosting the manual won't necessarily violate the terms of use I'm sure creating a torrent would.

It's not a bad idea to have teams host the manual the first week but if you do, please commit to removing it after the first update.

I posted links in a few places last year with the disclaimer: "After the first week these rules may no longer be entirely accurate, I hold no responsibility for not keeping up with rule updates."

Last year over week 1 we went through 30GB of bandwidth with 30,000 page hits and 10,000 file transfers on the manual, so I think keehun & I will host it again this year.

The attached pictures are the data for kickoff day, the first is general data, the second picture is the number of times each file was downloaded

EDIT: I want to say save as in most pdf viewers can remove encryption too, if I host the documents on kickoff I will unencrypt them for ease of use, I would prefer you save them to a computer rather than repeatedly downloading.

[Spen.M.P.]

I will put it up on my team's site. We supposedly have unlimited bandwith for it so we can test it.
The link to the site page is:
http://nfraiderrobotics.com/frcmanual.html
Feel free to test with the other one and I will put up this years as soon as it comes out.

[1986titans]

It's not ideal, but I can get the decrypted manual up on Imgur next Saturday as soon as it comes out at:

http://0010.imgur.com/

It should also be unlimited. The "One Image" album will have the entire manual as a single image, the other will have every page as its own image.

[cbeavers6790]

where can I get the encrypted version before kickoff...I want to download it so I will not have to go onto the FIRST website on kickoff day.

[IndySam]

They will more than likely release it sometime this week. I would bet it will be in an email blast, Bill's Blog or both on Wednesday.

That is if they release it.

[EricH]

I don't think you can, though I may be wrong (50-50 chance).

I don't think FIRST even puts the documents on their website until the middle of kickoff. There's a place for it, but nothing is there until during kickoff when one of their many robot androids who don't need to watch the game animation because they have it programmed into their little matrix brains press some buttons and magically load the game manual with a secret password protection on it so as that people who missed kickoff can't see it and are maniacally caused to go through a long and perilous journey to find it.

That, or it's just not visible. Who knows? :pIncorrect on all counts.

In the past, the encrypted manual (with a very strong encryption) is placed somewhere on the FIRST website about 3-4 days before Kickoff. The password is released at the end of Kickoff, and the unencrypted manual is released shortly after Kickoff.

If they don't do that this year, they really need a massive server--last year, the FIRST site was down for a couple days after Kickoff due to traffic, even with the encrypted manual release.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Incorrect on all counts.

In the past, the encrypted manual (with a very strong encryption) is placed somewhere on the FIRST website about 3-4 days before Kickoff. The password is released at the end of Kickoff, and the unencrypted manual is released shortly after Kickoff.

If they don't do that this year, they really need a massive server--last year, the FIRST site was down for a couple days after Kickoff due to traffic, even with the encrypted manual release.

Like I said: Could be wrong. I just guessed, but a 50-50 shot isn't that bad. Well, since your answer is more precise, I say it's the best option. Indysam also gets some credit.

[engunneer]

If you have any Linux people on your team, Evince (the standard GNOME document viewer) (and probably others... maybe KDE's one?) can print directly to PDF, thereby allowing you to save a decrypted copy of an encrypted PDF (you need the password, of course, and it increases the file size).

I'm not familiar with software for Windows that can do this, other than Adobe's official PDF creation software. It shouldn't be too hard to find something, though.

Then you can distribute the new PDF among your team (and other teams), removing the need for any form of internet access.
Back to the printing issue, The decrypted pdf can be printed (I did this in 2009 at least) to a pdf printer, such as PDF creator (get it from ninite.com or sourceforge). I believe PDF creator is cross platform, and should work on all three major flavors of OS.

I'm looking forward to the iOS and android apps for the game this year.

[linuxboy]

I'll be hosting copies of the game manual at: http://frc-manual.heroku.com/

Does anyone else think we should make a separate thread to list places where people are hosting the manual?

Oliver

[Andrew Lawrence]

I'll be hosting copies of the game manual at: http://frc-manual.heroku.com/

Does anyone else think we should make a separate thread to list places where people are hosting the manual?

Oliver

A separate thread won't be necessary, however if you do have a separate host, hold onto it and wait until kickoff or the day before. Information like this, while extremely useful, is of no use to us now. For some, it may make their pre-season anxiety even worse. :p

[Grim Tuesday]

A separate thread won't be necessary, however if you do have a separate host, hold onto it and wait until kickoff or the day before. Information like this, while extremely useful, is of no use to us now. For some, it may make their pre-season anxiety even worse. :p

At the same time, though, it might get lost in the post-kickoff dust storm. Speaking of that, are Chief Delphi's servers up for it? I remember hearing that they switched to a cloud hosted solution, but I wonder if it will work...

[plnyyanks]

At the same time, though, it might get lost in the post-kickoff dust storm. Speaking of that, are Chief Delphi's servers up for it? I remember hearing that they switched to a cloud hosted solution, but I wonder if it will work...

Brandon says that they'll be able to dynamically add resources (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1086756&postcount=10) to their server to deal with increased traffic. So I'd assume they'd at least be able to handle it better than they did last year. Honestly, I'm more worried about FIRST's website will survive kickoff than CD.

[ttldomination]

Brandon says that they'll be able to dynamically add resources (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1086756&postcount=10) to their server to deal with increased traffic. So I'd assume they'd at least be able to handle it better than they did last year. Honestly, I'm more worried about FIRST's website will survive kickoff than CD.

I have a sneaky suspicion that even with this, CD will also crash after kickoff. She's a delicate one. Heck, I'm fairly sure CD will crash a couple of days before kickoff as users start logging in to finally read up on the hints and see what teams have been doing in the off-season.

- Sunny G.

[DonRotolo]

I have a sneaky suspicion that even with this, CD will also crash after kickoff. She's a delicate one. Heck, I'm fairly sure CD will crash a couple of days before kickoff as users start logging in to finally read up on the hints and see what teams have been doing in the off-season.

- Sunny G.
Betcha you're wrong!

Now we only have to wait and see...:p

[Grim Tuesday]

'Tis the season for Chief Delphi to rise above Reddit, Gmail, and Facebook in my chrome startpage. Right now it's sitting right around 6.

[Mike AA]

FYI,

In years past, including last year the GDC frowned upon teams hosting the manual for the exact reasons many have said, amongst others, having a bad or expired copy when someone tries to download it could make them very upset with you.

Also, I believe I read a little while back that first too has gone to a cloud server company. This should alleviate the congestion we have had.

If everyone learns to "save" the files rather than just "read" this will also help with the congestion.

[dlavery]

I'll be hosting copies of the game manual at: http://frc-manual.heroku.com/

Does anyone else think we should make a separate thread to list places where people are hosting the manual?

Oliver

Actually, to go even a little bit further than Mike did in the previous post - remember that the FRC manual is a copyrighted work. Just because FIRST posts it on their servers for teams to download for their use does NOT mean that you can do the same. We have been through this many time on these forums. Copying a re-publishing the FRC manual without the express permission of FIRST is a violation of copyright laws, and it is illegal. The same thing is true for the game animation.

Whether or not anyone but FIRST legally can distribute it without their permission is up for debate, I fail to see how sharing it through torrents is any different than hosting it on a server for direct download.


There is no debate about it. Republishing a copyrighted work without the express permission of the copyright holder is illegal. Period.

Have a question about this? Well, remember that the current president of FIRST is the former director of the US Patent and Trademark Office. I would be willing to bet that he has rather strong feelings on this topic (OK, no bet there at all - I know he does, we have talked about it before). He is quite familiar with the relevant law and exactly what rights FIRST has for the material that they own.

Now, realistically, will FIRST come running after you and have you arrested and/or fined for doing so? Unlikely, and I am sure that they have better things to do. Nonetheless, just because they don't have the resources to enforce this does not change the fact that you and your teams are supposed to be behaving honorably and professionally. You are on your honor to uphold and practice the legal and ethical standards that would be expected in any professional workplace. A violation of the law is a violation of the law. Would you do this as a part of your job? Would you do it if getting caught meant losing your job?

-dave




.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Furthermore, by reposting it you are providing a location where a potentially old version of the manual could be accessed by some team should your link show up to them before the official link.

Actually, to go even a little bit further than Mike did in the previous post - remember that the FRC manual is a copyrighted work. Just because FIRST posts it on their servers for teams to download for their use does NOT mean that you can do the same. We have been through this many time on these forums. Copying a re-publishing the FRC manual without the express permission of FIRST is a violation of copyright laws, and it is illegal. The same thing is true for the game animation.

Now, realistically, will FIRST come running after you and have you arrested and/or fined for doing so? Unlikely, and I am sure that they have better things to do. Nonetheless, just because they don't have the resources to enforce this does not change the fact that you and your teams are supposed to be behaving honorably and professionally. You are on your honor to uphold and practice the legal and ethical standards that would be expected in any professional workplace. A violation of the law is a violation of the law. Would you do this as a part of your job? Would you do it if getting caught meant losing your job?

-dave


(Just thinking)
How does FIRST feel about the TechnoKat history project? They are rehosting old manuals. I think it is an important resource but at the same time I believe they are breaking copyright law unless they contacted FIRST specifically.

[Chris is me]

I'm honestly curious why FIRST doesn't license the Manual under a Creative Commons license. I figure they would want as many people to have access to it as possible.

[Scott L.]

Actually, to go even a little bit further than Mike did in the previous post - remember that the FRC manual is a copyrighted work. Just because FIRST posts it on their servers for teams to download for their use does NOT mean that you can do the same. We have been through this many time on these forums. Copying a re-publishing the FRC manual without the express permission of FIRST is a violation of copyright laws, and it is illegal. The same thing is true for the game animation.



There is no debate about it. Republishing a copyrighted work without the express permission of the copyright holder is illegal. Period.

Have a question about this? Well, remember that the current president of FIRST is the former director of the US Patent and Trademark Office. I would be willing to bet that he has rather strong feelings on this topic (OK, no bet there at all - I know he does, we have talked about it before). He is quite familiar with the relevant law and exactly what rights FIRST has for the material that they own.

Now, realistically, will FIRST come running after you and have you arrested and/or fined for doing so? Unlikely, and I am sure that they have better things to do. Nonetheless, just because they don't have the resources to enforce this does not change the fact that you and your teams are supposed to be behaving honorably and professionally. You are on your honor to uphold and practice the legal and ethical standards that would be expected in any professional workplace. A violation of the law is a violation of the law. Would you do this as a part of your job? Would you do it if getting caught meant losing your job?

-dave




.

Here is the response from FIRST when i e-mailed them in a previous year
This back from our IT group:

"We would prefer they not mirror any documents because they could change and we don't have an automatic mechanism to notify folks of changes that would automatically ensure update of their document. "

Let us know if you have any additional questions.

FRC Teams.

[Joe G.]

To get back to the original thread topic, the encrypted manual is now online

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/competition-manual-and-related-documents?id=452

[plnyyanks]

The 2012 encrypted game manual has been posted:
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/competition-manual-and-related-documents?id=452

EDIT: beat to it... mods, you can delete this if you want

[Bot190]

I understand that we are breaking copyright laws by hosting the manual, but I feel as though FIRST should give us a better alternative. When their servers go down for the first few days after kick-off where are we supposed to get the manual? Without other teams graciously hosting the files, we would be unable to access the rules and unable to do anything for the first couple of days. Supposedly FIRST has done things to prevent this from happening this year, but I seem to remember them saying the same thing last year.
As such I will be creating a torrent of the unencrypted manual when it is released.

[DonRotolo]

I understand that we are breaking copyright laws by hosting the manual

I will be creating a torrent of the unencrypted manual when it is released.
Do you think that it is wise to admit, in writing, that you will be breaking the law?

Do you also think it wise to break the law?

Ponder that for a while, let me know what you come up with.

[GaryVoshol]

When their servers go down for the first few days after kick-off where are we supposed to get the manual? Without other teams graciously hosting the files, we would be unable to access the rules and unable to do anything for the first couple of days.
That's why an encrypted manual is made available early. I downloaded the parts without any problem. I suggest everyone do the same thing.

And it's not like the encrypted manual is a secret or anything - it's announced on Bill's blog.

[Tristan Lall]

There is no debate about it. Republishing a copyrighted work without the express permission of the copyright holder is illegal. Period.That's very often true, but there are numerous exceptions—see fair use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) in 17 U.S.C. § 107 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml), or as explained by the Copyright Office (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html) of the Library of Congress. (Similar principles like fair dealing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing) exist elsewhere.)

Is the proposed re-hosting fair use? The only way to know for sure is to sue, and have the court balance the merits of several factors. Equity and case law are inherently part of the process outlined in the statute, and they introduce uncertainty (and provoke debate among legal professionals).

And just to be clear, there are different grades of "illegal". Most copyright infringement is a civil matter, where the state won't get involved—only the copyright holder has standing to sue. Only some (usually egregious) cases are a criminal matter. Either way, it's probably a bad idea to tempt legal proceedings unless you're justifiably confident that you have a defence (like fair use).

[GaryVoshol]

Tristan, so because you won't get caught or there may be no consequences, that makes it OK?

Fair use covers excerpts of material, not the whole thing. That's why it's OK for us to quote a rule from the manual when answering a question here on CD.

[Tristan Lall]

How does FIRST feel about the TechnoKat history project? They are rehosting old manuals. I think it is an important resource but at the same time I believe they are breaking copyright law unless they contacted FIRST specifically.It could be fair use for the purpose of scholarship. In terms of the factors to be weighed, the use is noncommercial, the work is technical rather than literary, the amount is the work in its entirety and the effect on the potential market is nil.

I'd say the TechnoKats have a strong fair use defence. Furthermore, I'd say FIRST will never sue them over it, so it will never be resolved officially (unless the law changes).

[Bot190]

Do you think that it is wise to admit, in writing, that you will be breaking the law?

Do you also think it wise to break the law?

Ponder that for a while, let me know what you come up with.

Every year, FIRST sets forth a challenge for FRC Teams to complete. That challenge has rules limiting what materials we are allowed to use, how long we get to design and build that robot. How we can transport that robot and many other things. Downloading the rules for that challenge is not supposed to be part of the challenge itself (at least it hasn't been in previous years :p). As such I hope to make it easier for other teams to acquire the manual and begin their build season.

Also, others have also posted that they will be breaking the law. Maybe you should ask them their feelings on breaking the law also.

[Tristan Lall]

Tristan, so because you won't get caught or there may be no consequences, that makes it OK?Not exactly. It's more like (in some hypothetical scenario), you're unlikely to get caught or suffer consequences, and it's OK. They're related, but not causally in the way that you propose.

The big question is whether it's right—and that's not the question that the law tries to answer directly. Instead, the law proposes a series of requirements that—given certain assumptions—balance the private and social costs and benefits. It then tries to come to a compromise that can be understood and enforced.

It's fundamentally different from the FIRST rules mindset, because there isn't even the remotest attempt to cover every scenario with a definitive answer as to what's right. Instead, the law intentionally defers to the courts to sort out tough cases. (It's much easier to be definitive when the scope is narrow, you update the rules every year, and you don't have a thousand years of common law precedent to consider.)

Furthermore, copyright law has evolved to rely upon the lack of economic benefit in pursuing de minimis infringement as a way limiting the number of infringement suits in a way that is acceptable to the public. In effect, if every possible infringement were prosecuted fully, we'd make tortfeasors of us all—and I suspect we'd be much less willing to allow a monopoly on the rights to creative works under those circumstances. Copyright as we know it would not be sustainable in that scenario. More to the point, society supports this limiting effect because it does not view every infringement as wrong, even though they are inherently illegal.

Fair use is an affirmative defence: you employ it when you're accused of infringement. (In other words, you've been caught, and consequence #1 is that you're on trial.) In effect, by claiming fair use, you're articulating why some alleged infringements are not wrong, and are instead justified by their benefits to society. Strip away all the legalese, and that's what you've got: a belief that something is OK because it's better for society than an alternative. If your belief is correct, then that makes it right.1 If your belief is incorrect (particularly in the eyes of the judge)...prepare for more consequences.

Fair use covers excerpts of material, not the whole thing. That's why it's OK for us to quote a rule from the manual when answering a question here on CD.Excerpts are generally much easier to justify as fair use than whole works, but sometimes the whole work can be used (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_I nc.).

1 That's not to say it's necessarily optimal; just better than the alternative.

[Flimsor]

The encrypted manual was just released. You can get it here:

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/competition-manual-and-related-documents?id=452

[Chris is me]

...prepare for more consequences.

Oddly enough, it is illegal to make an improper fair use claim, something you can't know if you did until you've made it.

[EricH]

I understand that we are breaking copyright laws by hosting the manual, but I feel as though FIRST should give us a better alternative.
I downloaded the ENTIRE encrypted manual to my desktop in under 5 minutes just now. Now all I have to do is note the password on January 7 (preferably an a .txt on my computer so I can copy+paste) and I'm all set until I can get to the unencrypted ones.

Yep, that's a better alternative than fighting the traffic on the FIRST servers (or even the CD servers, or mirror servers) to get the Manual, when that traffic has been known to shut down FIRST for 2 days and slow down CD for one. It's 100% legal, it's MY fault if I don't update it (and I know this), and I'm sure it's the right one.

[Tristan Lall]

Oddly enough, it is illegal to make an improper fair use claim, something you can't know if you did until you've made it.I think that applies when you misrepresent your position (such as with a patently false fair use claim) in the counternotice you provide in response to a DMCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation _Act) takedown request (17 U.S.C. § 512(f) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/usc_sec_17_00000512----000-.html)).

I don't believe there's any such penalty in litigation (where fair use is usually raised). You're free (legally, maybe not ethically) to offer a false defence, as long as you don't suborn/commit perjury.

[davidthefat]

Anybody have access to a super computer? My quad core laptop will take more than a year to brute force the PDF open. Haha

[Tristan Lall]

Anybody have access to a super computer? My quad core laptop will take more than a year to brute force the PDF open. Haha26 lowercase + 26 uppercase + 10 digits + about 20 common symbols = a set of 82 characters from which to choose. Assume that the password is between 10 and 20 characters long. That makes 8210 + 8211 + ... + 8220 = 1.9 × 1038 unique passwords to check to be sure of success.

How many cores did you say you have?

(There's no practical brute force attack on the encrypted manual. It would be much easier to hijack a helicopter, land on top of FIRST HQ, cut a hole in the ceiling, steal all of their computers, and decrypt those.)

[cgmv123]

Anybody have access to a super computer? My quad core laptop will take more than a year to brute force the PDF open. Haha

Someone says they already have, but I think they're joking. http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1095979&postcount=13 I said it before, and I'll say it again: The US government uses this encryption to protect Top Secret classified information. You're not going to get it.

[Hallry]

Someone says they already have, but I think they're joking. http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1095979&postcount=13 I said it before, and I'll say it again: The US government uses this encryption to protect Top Secret classified information. You're not going to get it.

They also said they're computer did it today while they were at work, but the documents weren't even released until 5:39 pm EST tonight ::rtm::

[Daniel_LaFleur]

That's very often true, but there are numerous exceptions—see fair use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) in 17 U.S.C. § 107 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml), or as explained by the Copyright Office (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html) of the Library of Congress. (Similar principles like fair dealing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing) exist elsewhere.)

Is the proposed re-hosting fair use? The only way to know for sure is to sue, and have the court balance the merits of several factors. Equity and case law are inherently part of the process outlined in the statute, and they introduce uncertainty (and provoke debate among legal professionals).

And just to be clear, there are different grades of "illegal". Most copyright infringement is a civil matter, where the state won't get involved—only the copyright holder has standing to sue. Only some (usually egregious) cases are a criminal matter. Either way, it's probably a bad idea to tempt legal proceedings unless you're justifiably confident that you have a defence (like fair use).

Tristan,

In most cases, 'Fair use' indicates use of and not republishing copywrited material.

Also, the issue is not just Fair Use. FIRST could convieveably (sp?) lose its copywrite if it does not defend it.
I.E. It becomes very difficult to tell the 31st republisher that he cannot republish a coptwrited piece of material when you did not instruct the first 30 republishers that they cannot do so.

26 lowercase + 26 uppercase + 10 digits + about 20 common symbols = a set of 82 characters from which to choose. Assume that the password is between 10 and 20 characters long. That makes 8210 + 8211 + ... + 8220 = 1.9 × 1038 unique passwords to check to be sure of success.

How many cores did you say you have?

(There's no practical brute force attack on the encrypted manual. It would be much easier to hijack a helicopter, land on top of FIRST HQ, cut a hole in the ceiling, steal all of their computers, and decrypt those.)

And now you have crossed into that grey area of cracking. Please refrain from doing this as this is a good thread for teaching about copywrites, publication of copywrited material, and encryption.

[Tristan Lall]

In most cases, 'Fair use' indicates use of and not republishing copywrited material.Make no mistake: I'm not arguing that republishing the FIRST manual on kickoff day is likely a fair use—that's a tough case to make, and I'd say it would probably be losing argument in court. (Morally, it's less clear that this would be wrong on balance. Practically, as noted by myself and others, there's no likelihood of a suit.) I was responding to Dave's position that copyright was absolute by offering statutory and precedential reasons why it is not.

By contrast, I think that the TechnoKat history project, if it were sued and became a test case for fair use, would have a strong defence—because I think people, courts included, see the value of an express commitment to preserving seminal documents to understand the movement behind them. (Organizations themselves cannot be counted upon to preserve their own history—valuable content is lost all the time when websites are refurbished.) But that's far from a guarantee that they'd prevail, or a statement that the situation is clear-cut. Indeed, the only way I can rationalize their method of distributing the works (publicly to any visitor to their site) is that there's no commercial purpose or value in doing so—and as such, economic harm would not be a countervailing factor in determining fair use. (That's very distinct from most fair use law, which deals with commerce. Although untested in court, this non-commercial stance is part of the reason that the Internet Archive thinks it can get away with archiving essentially the entire public Web.)

Also, you're correct when you say most fair uses upheld by the courts are limited to use rather than public distribution (because there is a strong presumption in favour of the author's right to control distribution). There are exceptions for when a work is transformative—it adds something new and useful—that allow this principle to be suspended. For example, Google won a case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_10,_Inc._v._Amazon.com,_Inc.) allowing them to distribute thumbnailed images (derivative works) freely, because they were using the images in a transformative way as part of a service for finding the originals.

Also, the issue is not just Fair Use. FIRST could convieveably (sp?) lose its copywrite if it does not defend it.
I.E. It becomes very difficult to tell the 31st republisher that he cannot republish a coptwrited piece of material when you did not instruct the first 30 republishers that they cannot do so.You're thinking of trademark. There's no such dilution possible in copyright (as a matter of law). A copyright is presumed valid until it expires, or until it is expressly relinquished into the public domain by its owner. (As a practical matter, I suppose it might make for an awkward conversation—but it doesn't change FIRST's legal rights.)

And now you have crossed into that grey area of cracking.There is nothing wrong with posting a back-of-the-envelope calculation demonstrating that there are more possible passwords than could be cracked in the days until kickoff. In fact, there are hundreds of trillions of times more possible passwords than there are stars in the observable universe.

A discussion of this fact poses no legal risk to any of us, nor to ChiefDelphi. It certainly is not immoral or unwise.

[rick.oliver]

The encrypted 2012 Game Manual is available here:

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/competition-manual-and-related-documents

[Ross3098]

Guys this came to me in a dream and I believe it is part of the new game animation. Quoting from said dream:

"****** is played on a 27x54 ft carpeted field. Alliances of three teams each, operate their robots from behind alliance walls, on the ends of the field.

O.O I think I'm on to something. :yikes:

[davidthefat]

Guys this came to me in a dream and I believe it is part of the new game animation. Quoting from said dream:

"****** is played on a 27x54 ft carpeted field. Alliances of three teams each, operate their robots from behind alliance walls, on the ends of the field.

O.O I think I'm on to something. :yikes:

How many alliances :confused:

[Ninja_Bait]

Guys this came to me in a dream and I believe it is part of the new game animation. Quoting from said dream:

"****** is played on a 27x54 ft carpeted field. Alliances of three teams each, operate their robots from behind alliance walls, on the ends of the field.

O.O I think I'm on to something. :yikes:

No, it's a water game.

[Red_Storm_509]

The encrypted 2012 Game Manual is available here:

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/competition-manual-and-related-documents

How do I download the encrypted files so I don't have to download them the day of kickoff?

[EricH]

How do I download the encrypted files so I don't have to download them the day of kickoff?
Right-click and hit "Save link as" (Firefox) or "Save target as" (IE), then put the file where you'll find it easily.

[ttldomination]

"****** is played on a 27x54 ft carpeted field. Alliances of three teams each, operate their robots from behind alliance walls, on the ends of the field.

While I'm inclined to agree, the GDC has known to make people eat their words. So keep dreaming, but be sure to keep some ketchup around.

- Sunny G.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Guys this came to me in a dream and I believe it is part of the new game animation. Quoting from said dream:

"****** is played on a 27x54 ft carpeted field. Alliances of three teams each, operate their robots from behind alliance walls, on the ends of the field.

O.O I think I'm on to something. :yikes:

It could be carpeted but there is no guarantee. I hope you are right though or my teams prototyping goes to waste.

[Peyton Yeung]

It could be fair use for the purpose of scholarship. In terms of the factors to be weighed, the use is noncommercial, the work is technical rather than literary, the amount is the work in its entirety and the effect on the potential market is nil.

I'd say the TechnoKats have a strong fair use defence. Furthermore, I'd say FIRST will never sue them over it, so it will never be resolved officially (unless the law changes).

We (the Technokats) do not want to cause trouble with FIRST. We post past year's information to inform people of the past. Hence the history project. The current manual contains secret (until kickoff) information. Our past manuals don't contain any secrets (to my knowledge). So i believe it is fine that said material from our history is posted. If FIRST would like us to remove our information than we will happily comply.

[Tristan Lall]

We (the Technokats) do not want to cause trouble with FIRST. We post past year's information to inform people of the past. Hence the history project. The current manual contains secret (until kickoff) information. Our past manuals don't contain any secrets (to my knowledge). So i believe it is fine that said material from our history is posted. If FIRST would like us to remove our information than we will happily comply.That's a good attitude to have in general. A couple comments:

Firstly, if you ever do get asked, the decision to comply or not is of course yours to make. But irrespective of that choice, make FIRST (or any organization for that matter) go on record with their rationale: ask them specifically what they don't like, and what laws and moral principles they believe you're violating. Although it may cause them some minor annoyance, it will have at least two much more valuable effects. It will make sure they understand what they're asking (people are often utterly and fundamentally mistaken about copyright—this will make them do their homework and thus improve their internal practices). It will also allow others in the community to judge the validity of their argument (if they make bad arguments, they deserve constructive criticism—again, it puts them on the path to doing things right).

And if you feel even slightly adventurous, present them with a claim of fair use, and see what they say. While we all like FIRST, and doubt they'd ever use copyright as a bludgeon for silencing dissent, criticism or anything else they find objectionable, there exist organizations that make weak copyright arguments in an effort to stifle discussion or strengthen their business positions. By being reasonably firm with FIRST, you'd help set an example (change the culture, if you will) indicating that dubious legal threats are ineffective against an informed populace.1

Secondly, it's important not to confuse secrets with copyright (and I don't think you necessarily made that mistake). Although trade secret law exists, it's not really applicable to a situation where FIRST posts something and says 'don't open this yet'. Government secrets are something else, but they're not relevant here either. Secrets in general have no protection at all. And something is only a secret until it's revealed—so don't worry at all about whether secrets might exist in the old manuals. Information kind of wants to be free....

1 The morality of that plan is subject to other factors—there's absolutely a limit to making an example out of them, even with softball questions like "why isn't this a fair use for purposes of scholarship, research or teaching?"

[jcarm]

ok i'm not the brightest one when it comes to computer stuff so ,how do you down load the encrypted version of the rules?

[cgmv123]

ok i'm not the brightest one when it comes to computer stuff so ,how do you down load the encrypted version of the rules?

Right-click and hit "Save link as" (Firefox) or "Save target as" (IE), then put the file where you'll find it easily.

'Nuff said.